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Profile: A cooperator
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User Name: A cooperator
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Occupation: A teaching assistant at a University
Interests: English
Gender: Male
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Joined: Thursday, October 27, 2011
Last Visit: Monday, December 11, 2017 6:51:27 AM
Number of Posts: 2,389
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: Subject-independence in Modal verbs and in other verbs that are followed by infinitive. (Verbs)
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 6:49:34 AM
Drag0nspeaker,
It looks that you have been sort of busy these days.
I wish you will find some free time to continue to finish this matter as much as you can.
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Quote:
You could use either - they mean virtually the same.
However, strictly, the passive form of "Cats like dogs to chase them" is "Cats like to be chased by dogs."
The passive form of "Cats like dogs chasing them" is "Cats like being chased by dogs."
With "Like" as the modal auxiliary, both are possible and they almost mean the same thing.

With "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible (or mean rather different things).



Firstly: I have never ever that 'like' is a modal verb at all. Modal verbs are 'must, can, will, shall, may, could, would, should, might, ought.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, then it would have been followed by an infinitive 'to be' as all modal verbs cannot be followed by infinitives.
Oh, Algeria Street, I know it very well, where the Amidest institute is located there.

Also, if "like" was a modal verb, "Micheal Swan" wouldn't have said
"With most other verbs that are followed by infinitive, their meaning is attached to the subject, so that a change from active to passive changes the sense of the sentence completely. Compare:
- Dogs like to chase cats.
Cats like to be chased by dogs. (Different and - of course - untrue)
- Pete wants to phone Ann.
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. (Not the same meaning)

Secondly: But even 'like' was a modal verb, Micheal Swan said that one can change a modal structure from active to passive, for example, without affecting the meaning very much. But you said "passive infnitive form" and "passive -ing form" are possible and they almost mean the same thing.



As long as I can use 'passive -ing form' or 'passive infinitive' after 'like"
However, with "need", "want" and some other verbs, the two forms are not possible. So, with after "need", "want", only passive infinitive is possible.

Firstly: Could you tell me exactly why we cannot use a passive -ing form after "need", "want"? Is it because "need" and "want" can only come with 'infinitive with to'. However, "need" doesn't come with a gerund after 'it'. Also, "The room needs being cleaned by someone" doesn't make sense since my mouth isn't going well while speaking it. Though it is funny to say this reason.

Secondly: Could you give me a list of verbs which can come with a passive infinitive forms, and with a passive -ing forms'. I.e. two forms are possible with them?
Cats like to be chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs to chase them.
Cats like being chased by dogs. - Cats like dogs chasing them.

Thirdly: could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with infinitive forms? Such as:
Ann wants to be phoned by Pete. - Ann wants Pete to phone her.
Ann wants being phoned by Pete.

The room needs to be cleaned by someone. - The room needs someone to clean it.
The room needs being cleaned by someone.


Finally: Could you give me a list of verbs which can only come with passive-ing forms?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: The active form of "don't believe it has to be installed"
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 5:31:34 AM
Audiendus wrote:
The problem is that you previously asked what was the active form of "don't believe it has to be installed". This implies that you were thinking of the passive construction. The active form of the passive construction would be "don't believe someone has to install it", as I said (except that the active form would change the emphasis, implying that the obligation was on "someone").


Thanks a lot, Audiendus,
First of all, I am respectfully requesting you to answer me.
Yes, I meant "installed" to be part of a passive verb. So, "don't believe someone has to install it."
As long as "don't believe it has to be installed." can be rephrased by anyone using other auxiliary modal verbs "don't believe it must be installed. =>don't believe someone must install it." Or using an ordinary verb "don't believe it needs to be installed.=> don't believe someone needs to install.", why did we not transfer the passive forms below to active forms with the same way as long as the construction is the same?

Google Chrome must be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/something must close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/something has to close the Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Someone/something needs to close Google Chrome to clean the Internet Cache.

On the contrary, you had said before that the active forms above are not so good, as they could wrongly be taken to mean that the obligation is on a particular person. Then, you had said the active forms, in particular, of the second and third one would be:
Google Chrome has to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome has to have someone/something to close it to clean the Internet Cache.

Google Chrome needs to be closed to clean the Internet Cache. => Google Chrome needs to have someone/something to close it to clean the Internet Cache.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: The active form of "don't believe it has to be installed"
Posted: Monday, December 11, 2017 5:01:28 AM
palapaguy wrote:
"Installed" is being used as an adjective. It might be easier for you to understand this from a local native English speaker than through this forum.


Thanks a lot, palpaguy,
You're right that English language needs to be taught by well-educated English native speakers.
However, no one is where I live in. I even have never ever talked with any native English speaker. So, I don't know how good I will be while talking with any native English speaker.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: When a past participle is used as part of a passive verb or as an adjective?
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:48:43 PM
Audiendus wrote:
Quote:

A cooperator wrote:
Quote:
Finally: you didn't comment on this below.
But, I mean as long as the sentence in passive form 'I hate to be made a fool of' is fine. Then, definitely, this sentence has the following active form 'I hate someone to make a fool of me.'. Which means it doesn't matter if we say 'I hate to be made a fool of by someone.' or 'I hate to be made a fool of.'. I.e if we mentioned to the agent or not,it will still refer to an action.

Hence, why was I told

It does not feel natural to use the active infinitive with an agent - the participle is more normal.
"I hate someone to make a fool of me" just sounds completely wrong.
"I hate to be made a fool of" sounds perfectly natural.

This is not a question of grammar. It is a question of style - what native speakers actually say. There is no 'rule' for it.


My question is regardless if the agent is mentioned or not in "I hate to be made a fool of by someone.", I think the active form "I hate to be made a fool of" would be "I hate someone to make a fool of me.".
Thus, as long as it does feel natural to use the participle "I hate to be made a fool of" and that passive infinitive must have an active form, which is "I hate someone to make a fool of me", then the latter "the active form" does feel natural to use with an agent. I hope that explain it in plain language.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: When a past participle is used as part of a passive verb or as an adjective?
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:34:30 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Yes, "motionless leave" can do something if we consider it as "an issue", in "an issue has faced me."
Thus,
The gate was already covered with leaves." => "Leaves already covered gate."

I have been faced with an issue => "An issue has faced me."

He is frozen with fear. => "Fear freezes him."

If you wish to regard all these as actions, you are free to do so. Others may disagree. As I said, there is no definite answer.

A cooperator wrote:
As a result, I would be still confused about whether P.P is used as part of a passive verb or an adjective.

Thus, do you think I shouldn't rely on this rule "If "by" is used, it could refer either to an action (passive) or a state (adjective). If a different preposition is used (e.g. "with" or "through"), it refers to a state (e.g. "the gate was already covered with leaves"; "he is frozen with fear"), unless an agent is mentioned."?

That rule works for me (because some cases which you regard as actions, I regard as states). But if you find it unhelpful, please ignore it.


But, I have started a case (I have been faced with an issue => "An issue has faced me.), which is definitely an action. A different preposition is used ("with") although it doesn't refer to a state . Is it since an agent("an issue") is mentioned?
But, I see people say "I have faced an issue." => "An issue faced me."



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: When a past participle is used as part of a passive verb or as an adjective?
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 10:26:54 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
"He wasn't anywhere to someone see him."
"You are someone to congratulate you."
"This behaviour is something to encourage it."
"There is no thing to someone do it."

No, none of these make sense.

Before I reply further, let me ask you: Do you understand what the original four sentences (mentioned in the earlier post) actually mean? If anyone said them to you, would you understand what they were saying?


Thanks a lot,
Although I brought those from Michael Swan book, but he didn't mention when they should be used and what they can convey.
All what I understand is that "to be seen/ found/ congratulated/ etc.
We also use passive infinitives to express value judgements with verbs like congratulate, encourage, avoid.

He wasn't anywhere to be seen.=> He was hidden.
You are to be congratulated.=> You deserve congratulation.
This behaviour is to be encouraged. =>This behaviour is good and should be encouraged.
There is nothing to be done. - We'll have to buy a new car. (=> There is no way of putting it right.)


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: Is it a program I need to have installed, I need installed(HAVE,GET SOMETHING DONE)
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 7:25:16 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
1- Why do you think we don't say "is it a program I need installed...."

That would be another way of saying it. "To have installed" ("have" in this instance means "get") emphasises the action of getting the program installed.

A cooperator wrote:
2- the active forms for :"don't believe it has to be installed" => 'don't believe it has someone to install it.'

No, the active form would be "don't believe someone has to install it".




Do you think that all of these sentences below follow :Causative structure – HAVE/GET SOMETHING DONE – "cause something to be done by somebody else."
Past participle in the alternatives I have listed below has a passive meaning. But, there is no no complete passive construction.
Do you think "Get/have" in all of these sentences below means 'cause something to be done by somebody else("get/have"( emphasises the action of getting something done.)


I need to have a program installed on my computer. => I need to have someone install a program on my computer.
I need to have my hair cut. => I need to have someone cut my hair.
I need to have my car repaired. => I need to have someone repair my car.
I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have things explained to me and I need to have it repeated. => I can't just absorb language by osmosis, I need to have someone explain things to me and I need to have someone repeat it.
He had / got his hair cut. => He had/got someone cut his hair.
She didn’t have / get her teeth checked. => She didn't have/get someone check her teeth.
I had / got the leak in the roof fixed. => I had/got someone fix the leak in the roof.
Did you have / get the TV repaired? => Did you have/get someone repair the TV?
Harry got himself moved to the New York office. => Harry got someone move him to the New York office.
He gets his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He has stopped having his production of sports jackets made.
He got his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He had his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.








Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: Harry got himself moved to the New York office.
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 6:25:12 PM
Luker4 wrote:
Yes that is a strange task.

He has stopped having his sports jackets made


the best what comes to mind is: He has his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.


(Harry's doing ok, he had a new car bought for him yesterday)


Since 'has' cannot be used as a causative structure(Causative # 1 – HAVE/GET SOMETHING DONE), 'cause something to be done by somebody else.', I think "He has his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued." should have been written:
He gets his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He has stopped having his production of sports jackets made.
He got his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.
He had his production of sports jackets stopped/discontinued.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: Harry got himself moved to the New York office.
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 5:53:56 PM
thar wrote:
Harry got himself moved to the New York office.

So using the passive, it shows the moving was done by someone else - but by using the active 'got' it is saying it was somehow arranged by him. That somehow he influenced the person who was making that decision.
Those two almost contradictory pieces of information.

It only works where you get someone else to do the work for you.
eg
Harry got his hair cut - ie he payed someone to cut it, and didn't do it himself.

But you don't 'get yourself taken somewhere'.
That is his action, he took a taxi.
If he had hired a car and driver, he would have got himself driven - ie he arranged for the job of driving him to be done, rather that doing it himself.

But not 'got himself taken' - because that is not an action he would have done himself - he would not have taken himself there (although that is a colloquial phrase, it is still not something you can outsource). He would have driven there. He would have taken a taxi there.

So your original sentence -
Harry arranged for the company to transfer him to the New York office.


Thar, may I ask you there is no form of the verb 'be' used? So, there is no complete passive construction in 'Harry got himself moved to the New York office.' Thus, why have you said 'So using the passive'? Have you said 'so using the passive' since the past participle 'moved' has a passive meaning?
Harry got himself moved to the New York office. => Harry got someone move him to the New York office.


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: When a past participle is used as part of a passive verb or as an adjective?
Posted: Sunday, December 10, 2017 9:53:25 AM
Audiendus wrote:


He wasn't anywhere to be seen.
You are to be congratulated.
This behaviour is to be encouraged.
There is nothing to be done.

The bold phrases as a whole are adjectival, but the past participles themselves are part of passive verbs. For example, "to be congratulated" is an adjectival phrase describing "you", but "congratulated" refers to the action of congratulating you


But, if the psst participles themselves are part of passive verbs, then what are their active forms?
I only tried, but they look so clumsy.
"He wasn't anywhere to someone see him."
"You are someone to congratulate you."
"This behaviour is something to encourage it."
"There is no thing to someone do it."


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.

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