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User Name: A cooperator
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Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Monday, January 27, 2020 7:57:16 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
However, about participles, I don't know if they can be used attributively, postpostively, and predicatively.

As a result, what difference would be there between each pair of the sentences below?

The available price for the public is reasonable.
The price available for the public is reasonable.

The exhausting work is a bad job.
The work exhausting is a bad work.

"the revolting food..."
"the food revolting.... "

His leering glances were revolting to her.
His glances leering were revolting to her.

Training teachers can teach students.
Teachers training can teach students.

Experiencing teachers could facilitate a language learning.
Teachers experiencing could facilitate a language learning.

The shown price is high.
The price shown is high.

Trained teachers can teach students.
Teachers trained can teach students.

Experienced teachers could facilitate a language learning.
Teachers experienced could facilitate a language learning.


Some of the above examples are incorrect. Which ones do you think are wrong?


Audiendus,

Only the ones I think are wrong are as follows:
Training teachers can teach students.
Experiencing teachers could facilitate a language learning.
But, when seeing 'Sync is currently experiencing problems. It will be back shortly.", and thinking I can say 'experiencing sync (=sync which is experiencing problems', then I thought 'Experiencing teachers' and 'Training teachers' are correct.

I am concerned about I don't know if participles can be used attributively, postpostively, and predicatively or not.
Also, if they can be used like some ordinary adjectives, then what difference would be there in each pair of those sentences?

Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Monday, January 27, 2020 7:04:46 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
How could you directly distinguish that "learning" is certainly a noun(I.e, a gerund didn't come to mind), however, "working" is a gerund used adjectivally?


"Working" in "working days" and "learning" in "learning tips" are both gerunds used adjectivally. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

A gerund basically acts as a noun. Like ordinary nouns, it can be used adjectivally (attributively):

rest day
celebration day
working day

health tips
exam tips
learning tips


Audiendus,
First, if you're going to be looking at the logic of being 'learning' and 'working' are gerunds used adjectivally in the following:
"Please sign me up to learning tips."
"The transfer of money from Webmoney to a bank account takes from 1 to 3 working days."

Then, you don't think that 'volunteering' in 'volunteering' is a gerund used adjectivally in "For example, we suggest to list all volunteering and extra-curricular activities that are related to your studies or professional development."?

Final, having said 'a gerund used adjectivally', then what difference would be there when '-ing' word used as an adjectival participle and when a gerund used adjectivally?
Topic: A number of people have....
Posted: Sunday, January 12, 2020 6:59:46 AM
Hi Everyone!
I read:
(1):
A number of people have...
Many singular quantifying expressions can be used with plural nouns and pronouns; plural verbs are normally used in this case:
A number of people have tried to find the treasure, but they have all failed.
A group of us are going to take a boat through the French canals.

(2):The expression the number is followed by a singular verb while the expression a number is followed by a plural verb. Examples: The number of people we need to hire is thirteen. A number of people have written in about this subject.

(3) "The" is dropped after the amount/number of.
The number of unemployed is rising steadily.(Not... of the unemployed)
I was surprised at the mount of money collected. (Not... of the money

However, I see "A number are..." is strange.
Quote:
More than a dozen Saudi servicemen training at US military installations will be expelled from the United States after a review that followed the deadly shooting last month at a Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Florida, multiple sources told CNN.

The Saudis are not accused of aiding the 21-year-old Saudi Air Force second lieutenant who killed three American sailors in the December shooting, two sources said, but some are said to have connections to extremist movements, according to a person familiar with the situation.

A number are also accused of possessing child pornography, according to a defense official and the person familiar with the situation. The FBI and Justice Department declined to comment.
Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 11:51:25 PM
Audiendus wrote:

No, the adjective "revolting", used predicatively, does not mean "rebellious"; it means "disgusting" (from the transitive verb "revolt", meaning "to disgust", as in "this food revolts me"). "The peasants were revolting" uses the past continuous tense of the intransitive verb "revolt", meaning "to rebel". It is simply the continuous form of "the peasants revolted".

But be careful: "the peasants were revolting" sounds like a joke. A native speaker would know that it really meant "the peasants were rebelling", but would also call to mind the other meaning and think of "the peasants were disgusting". It is sometimes said deliberately as a humorous play on words.

"Revolting" can be used attributively as an adjective in either sense ("the revolting food" or "the revolting peasants"). But, again, "the revolting peasants" would sound like a joke.


For the definitions of some ordinary adjectives, I sometimes see dictionaries listing the phrase "only before a noun (i.e, not used predictavitely or postpostively) such as "exiting". But, some other times, they don't list anything - (i.e, it means they can be used in any way, attributively, postpostively, and predicatively).

However, about participles, I don't know if they can be used attributively, postpostively, and predicatively.

As a result, what difference would be there between each pair of the sentences below?

The available price for the public is reasonable.
The price available for the public is reasonable.

The exhausting work is a bad job.
The work exhausting is a bad work.

"the revolting food..."
"the food revolting.... "

His leering glances were revolting to her.
His glances leering were revolting to her.



Training teachers can teach students.
Teachers training can teach students.

Experiencing teachers could facilitate a language learning.
Teachers experiencing could facilitate a language learning.


The shown price is high.
The price shown is high.

Trained teachers can teach students.
Teachers trained can teach students.

Experienced teachers could facilitate a language learning.
Teachers experienced could facilitate a language learning.


Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 10:49:28 PM
FounDit wrote:
[quote=A cooperator]Audiendus, replied to me as much as he could.
Could anyone please take some of their precious time out to reply to these two points of mine?

Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate. We don't usually wink "to" someone or something, we wink "at" someone, or something.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate. Okay.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate." No.(= The girl that is winking at the camera is my classmate. ) You can say this one.
The winking girl at me is my classmate. No. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.) You can say it this way.


FounDit,
How come we can say "surprising people with John Gray!!! (= people who are surprising with John Gray!!!)"?
But, we cannot say "The winking girl at the camera is my classmate. (we can only say "The girl who is winking at the camera is my classmate.)

That's, why can we use "surprising" either as adjectival participle placed attributively(before noun)(it can be used attributively as an adjective), or as the past continuous tense of the intransitive verb "surprise" followed by "with" if it were predicative?
However, "wink" can only be used as part of a progressive tense if predicative(it cannot be used attributively as an adjective) although both "surprising" and "wink" are propsitional verbs (verb followed by preposition)
"Surprising with"
"Wink at"

The participles which are paired with prepositions, such as '"wink at," "surprise with," "upset from, " "anger at" make me confused if they can be used attributively as adjective, and predictively as part of a progressive tense.
"The angering boy at me" = "The boy who is angering at me."



Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 9:31:40 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, you didn't remark on what part of speech "working" is in "2 working days."

I did – I said it is an adjective. However, see below.

A cooperator wrote:
if it is neither an adjective nor part of continues tense. I think it is a noun. Likewise "learning" is a noun in "learning tips".

OK, I will accept that. "Learning" in "learning tips" is certainly a noun (used adjectivally); "learning tips" means "tips for learning". Similarly, you can analyse "working days" as "days for working", in which "working" is a noun (gerund) used adjectivally. That is a reasonable analysis.


Audiendus,

How could you directly distinguish that "learning" is certainly a noun(I.e, a gerund didn't come to mind), however, "working" is a gerund used adjectivally?
AFAIK, a gerund doesn't have a plural form or "of" after it) in (The inner working/workings of a computer are beyond me. "Working(s)" is a noun).

Also, till now, "-ing" word can be used as a verb (He is working), an adjective(a working mother), a gerund (two working days), or a noun (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
In general, not only for "working", don't you think it would be confused between if -ing word is part of a progressive tense, a gerund, or a noun? For instance, "working" in "It's working". It's just an example to convey the meaning.
Topic: Question for A Cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 12:33:48 PM
FounDit wrote:
"Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it."

So it would seem the simple explanation is:
Whoever doesn't own what he promises, must not promise it.

or, to put it more simply:
Do not promise what you can't deliver/give.

or, as we sometime say in a joking manner here in the US:
Don't let you alligator mouth overload your canary-bird ass. (Meaning: you should be able to back up what you say)


FounDit,
Why did you put a comma?
Where is the subjct of "must....."?
Do you not think that my analysis below is logic?

Whoever is determined to succeed will get it.
Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.

"Whoever" is the subject of the clauses "is determined to succeed", and "doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve" in order.
The whole clauses, "Whoever is determined" and "Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve" in order are the subject of the other clause "will get it" and "must not promise it." in order.

Thus, I think no need to write a comma before 'must not' in "Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it."
Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 7:52:36 PM
Audiendus wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
"The transfer of money from Webmoney to a bank account takes from 1 to 3 working days."
I neither think "working" in "Working days" is an adjective nor a verb. We cannot say "very working days", and we cannot say "days which are working".
So, do you think the "-ing" word "working" here is a noun? If so, then how come it's a noun here, but it's a verb in "a working mother"?

"Working" in "working days" is an adjective; it modifies the noun "days". Unlike 'interesting', 'boring' etc, it cannot be used predicatively. Also, unlike the construction in "a working mother", it does not mean "days which work". Look up "working" in a dictionary and note its various meanings, which are differently related to the following noun. You will see that "working" in "working day" has a special meaning which cannot be deduced from the way the participles of other verbs are used.

I think my rule is useful in general, but (as with most such rules) you will find some exceptions. Some verbs will have participles (like 'working') which can be used in special ways that do not follow normal patterns. You need to learn these individually; there is no infallible rule which covers all of them. In some cases, as I have said, educated native speakers (and grammarians) will disagree about the appropriate grammatical analysis.

Sometimes the analysis depends entirely on the context. For example:

The peasants were revolting. [past continuous tense of 'revolt']
The peasants revolted. [past simple tense of 'revolt']
The food was revolting. [adjectival][= foul, disgusting]
The food revolted.

Thanks a lot,
Audiendus,

But, you didn't remark on what part of speech "working" is in "2 working days." if it is neither an adjective nor part of continues tense. I think it is a noun. Likewise "learning" is a noun in "learning tips".

Also, I still think of "revolting" as an adjective meaning "rebellious" in "The peasants were revolting."
Topic: 'You can only share with up to 5 chats' (The position of ‘only’)
Posted: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 5:13:09 PM
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
. I don't care if the sentence is correctly phrased or not

We can't avoid considering that since, while the meaning of 'share with up to' is clear, the sentence becomes clunky if you add 'only'.

You can say share with only five,share with a maximum of five, and share with up to five. I suppose you could say share with up to only five, meaning share with a maximum of only five, but I think we's normally express this in another way.


BobShilling,

I have seen this tip on the application system of the Stipendium Hungaricum Scholarships:
Quote:
Please keep in mind that you are only allowed to register one account in the application system. If you have lost your access, please use the applicant code reminder facility or contact the admissions office.

Moreover, you can only add up to 2 programmes to your application with no more than 4 programmes from one institution.



Having seen this "you can only add up to 2 programmes to your application", I am wondering:
How come adding "only" in "You can only share with up to 5 chats" makes the sentence become clunky?
So, it should have been written "You can share with only five, share with a maximum of five, share with up to five, and share with up to only five".


Besides, how am I permissible to only add up to 2 programmes to my application, but with no more than 4 programmes from one institution? That's, I can add up to 4 study programmes in total. Or otherwise, am I not understanding it well? Or Does that mean "I can apply for up to two different study programmes."? I am confused.
Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Saturday, January 4, 2020 10:17:32 PM
Audiendus wrote:
OK, I just wish to make the following point.

I think 'working' in 'working mother' is a verb (a present participle, which can be part of a continuous tense), not an adjective.
We cannot say 'very working'.
Therefore, I think my rule still applies.

Audiendus,
Thanks a lot,

"The transfer of money from Webmoney to a bank account takes from 1 to 3 working days."
I neither think "working" in "Working days" is an adjective nor a verb. We cannot say "very working days", and we cannot say "days which are working".
So, do you think the "-ing" word "working" here is a noun? If so, then how come it's a noun here, but it's a verb in "a working mother"?