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Profile: Y111
User Name: Y111
Forum Rank: Advanced Member
Gender: None Specified
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Joined: Sunday, June 25, 2017
Last Visit: Saturday, January 13, 2018 2:14:36 PM
Number of Posts: 146
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: Do you want to know about England or Great Britain?
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:19:50 PM
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:58:39 AM
Fyfardens wrote:
There does appear to be rather more opinion and surmise than fact-based statements in this discussion.

We are just flogging a dead horse. The facts are known to both sides (more or less). What divides us is their interpretation. Besides, 99% of the sources would be in Ukrainian or Russian, which seems pointless in an English-speaking forum.

But here's one in English :) to support my claim that EuroMaidan was called so for a reason.

Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:54:17 AM
Helenej wrote:

What you said at once was, “Not by standing around violent protesters for months.” The protests only lasted less than three months. This means that you considered the protesters to be violent from the very beginning.

However, I didn't mean that. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. They probably seemed much longer than they actually lasted.

Helenej wrote:

Then explain why he didn’t name and punish the guilty.

I don't have the explanation, only guesses. Maybe it was someone close to him. Or someone who he still needed. Or someone who threatened to reveal compromising info about Yanukovych himself if he tried to blame and punish him.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 1:58:07 AM
Helenej wrote:

I thought the people on 30 November should seem violent to you because they attacked some policemen, as you say.

But I said it later. Did you use a time machine to find it out? :) Without it, that won't fly.

And even if you had somehow managed to see the future, you could only have heard me saying I had seen such a version on the Internet and it seemed plausible to me.

Helenej wrote:

2,000 policemen got infuriated at one time?

What do you mean by "at one time"? Do you mean that 2000 policemen arrived to the square all at once, divided into groups and each group surrounded and began to beat one protester?

Helenej wrote:

And all of them lost control, becoming real murderers?

How many were murdered?

Helenej wrote:

Sounds childish. You probably think that any cruel person should look like this.

Maybe. But I rather meant his behavior than his looks, and his overall behavior through the riot phase of Maidan looked indecisive. So I don't think it was what Putin would have advised/instructed him to do.

Helenej wrote:

You probably can’t imagine him, a member of a criminal gang, robbing and assaulting people, for which he was sentenced to three years in 1967. And you can’t imagine him being convicted for a second time in 1970 on charges of assault.

Well, who knows? People can change with age and life experience. But I agree, that doesn't speak in his favor.

Helenej wrote:

He knew that he would be sentenced to a much longer term for robbing the country on a largest scale. So be sure that he could have easily said that.

Let me remind you that Maidan was already ending at that time. He just had to wait a little. There was no threat of any sentence to him at the moment. So I still don't see why he had to be cruel to those dozing people.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:31:45 AM
Helenej wrote:

If you call the cruel measures taken against peacefully dozing people “decisive”, then more decisive measures should only imply more cruelty.

Yes, if. You should have noticed that I used "decisive measures" in connection with riots and violent protesters. Were the protesters violent on that night? Was it already a riot? You obviously don't think so. Then why did you apply my words to that night? "The very beginning" could refer either to the beginning of Maidan, which was earlier, or to the moment when the protest turned into a riot, which was later. Why did you choose November 30? So you could label me as pathologically cruel and rest your case?

Helenej wrote:

You want anyone to believe that? Some people attack the police and the police, that are in abundance in the square, can't run them down. No photos, no video. And then, instead of searching for those people, 2,000 riot policemen savagely attack those who haven't done anything bad.

I don't know (or remember) all the details. How many of the police initially arrived there, and so on. That's a version I've seen on the Internet, and it seems plausible. At least to me it's not less credible than that Yanukovych ordered the police to be cruel. He doesn't look like a cruel man. Policemen, on the other hand, can be infuriated by attacks and then act with excessive and indiscriminate brutality. It happens.

Helenej wrote:

It’s true, but if Yanukovych had nothing to do with the brutal attack, he had to find those who had given the order to 2,000 riot policemen. But he didn’t manage to do that in two months and twenty days although it was so easy. Any reasonable person can come to the conclusion that it was Yanukovych who gave the order.

That's a valid argument. It looks suspicious indeed if nobody was blamed for that incident. However, I just can't imagine Yanukovych saying to someone, "Clear the square and do it as brutally as possible to scare the shit out of them!" Of whom? Dozing people, as you say? Very odd.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 10:58:34 AM
Helenej wrote:

people wouldn’t call them “gang” just because one day they decided to SUSPEND some preparations.

However, they called it Euromaidan for a reason, I guess.

Helenej wrote:

More dicisive that this? It was at the very beginning, on 30 November, when about two hundred people, women being among them, stayed in the centre of Kiev for the night.

OK, let's replace "decisive" with "effective" if the former means cruelty to you. That event on November 30 looks like a provocation. Some say the police was previously attacked by some people who then left that place. As far as I know, Maidan had actually ended by that day or was about to end. And it's clear that the last thing Yanukovych needed was this escalation.

Helenej wrote:

You wish that a more severe violence than that in the videos had been involved then and even put a smiley.

I put it after another statement. Don't you think that what you are doing is similar to what you blame our TV for?

Helenej wrote:

Have you ever thought your cruelty can be pathological? You might want consider getting some therapy as soon as possible.

Right now it's more important if you think so. Because if you do, there is obviously no point in continuing our conversation.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:39:35 AM
Helenej wrote:

On the other hand, you can constantly hear in the video that slogan, "Off with the gang", which means that the protesters were against the authorities from the very beginning. So we can say that the Russian TV did lie.

Interpreting every inaccuracy as propaganda is also propaganda. Yes, we could often hear the slogan "Off with the gang", but we've also heard lots of times that "Ukraine is Europe". It's even become a meme and some people now ironically call Ukraine "IsEurope" and Ukrainians "AreEuropeans". So it was only natural to think that the "gang" was hated primarily for not letting Ukraine go to Europe and from Russia.

Or at least it was natural to get it so for Russians because it concerned us more than internal Ukranian problems, which we didn't quite understand.

That is not to claim that our TV never lies. Actually, I have a problem here because I haven't watched TV since the end of 2010, Russian or any other. So, if you think I've been brainwashed by Kiselyov, you are mistaken.

I realize that Maidan was a complex event and there were different people in it with differing goals. I don't want simplifications from any side. What about the slogan "Glory to the nation, death to the enemies"? Or "Ukraine above all"? I've heard them a thousand times in videos from Ukraine.

Helenej wrote:

I fear hearing possible Putin’s instructions you mean and how differently the protests would have ended. Sounds scary.

Nothing too scary. Just more decisive police measures from the very beginning. Putin would not have waited till the protesters obtained weapons or for some snipers to shoot at both sides, that's for sure. You must know how riots are dealt with even in democratic countries. Not by standing around violent protesters for months.

Yes, you can say that violence was ordered by Yanukovych and Putin. It's a very convenient, universal explanation. :)

Helenej wrote:

I believe that Putin instructed Yanukovich. He gave him $3 billion and was supposed to give $12 billion more so that Yanukovich would do what Putin wanted him to do.

That money was given to the country, not to Yanukovych. Not just money, there were projects of closer economic cooperation, more work for Ukrainian industry. Now that industry is dying or has died already. Europe obviously sees no point in saving it.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 9:22:33 AM
Helenej wrote:

Interesting. Which in this video is propaganda on the Ukraine's side?

For example, they say people didn't come to Maidan for joining the EU, that it was a lie of Russian TV, but in that same video we see a banner that says, "We want to the EU" and also there are EU flags later. It's well known that for many it was an important goal. Some even painted the EU flag on their faces.

Helenej wrote:

Instructions to do what they have done.

That is to behave like a wimp and lose power? I can't believe that. If Putin had given them instructions and they had followed them, Maidan would have ended differently and much earlier. So, either instructions weren't given or Yanukovych was independent enough to not follow them. In that case they were just advice.
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 7:01:05 AM
Helenej wrote:

Propaganda, for the first part.
Russia's propaganda on Russia 1 TV channel

Yes, I can see propaganda in that video; on both sides, though. :)

Helenej wrote:

Also, the instructions that Putin and Surkov gave to the former Ukrainan president and prime minister during their personal meetings and phone talks.

What instructions? And how did they become known if the meetings and talks were personal?
Topic: Alaska returns to Russia
Posted: Tuesday, January 09, 2018 2:16:48 AM
Helenej wrote:

Yes, a new language law was adopted in the aftermath of the mass killing of the protesters and I can understand why. Russia’s negative interference in the events was so huge that people hated it.

What negative interference?

Helenej wrote:

They were tired of Russia’s propaganda, of being constantly labeled ‘Nazi’ in spite of the fact that Russian-speaking people made up great part of the protesters.

Russian-speaking or Russian?

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