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Canada denies visa to Indians on 'ridiculous' grounds.. Options
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:03:56 AM
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Tell me KM, do you think India is squeaky clean? The US has the CIA the British has its intelligence angencies and the Russians too... and so it goes on. No one knows what the agencies of these countries get up too. Do you really think India has no shady organization that does questionable things that it does not want others to know about?

My gut feeling is that the Canadian Visa officials were most likely right but because of the hue and cry on the part of the Indian government they have been made scapegoats.So far we still have only seen the ?Indian side. We have not seen any article from Canada.

You may feel you were justified, but you are lucky over the outcome, and your appeal was sheer rank nationalism. Be assured India like others has shady orgaizations that you are not in the know about.

Nationalism ranks alongside small mindedness.

The link to the Indian paper provides no proofs of is claims that the Canadians had apologised.

I support Canadas right to refuse Visa's on any ground they choose, and if they want, not reveal those grounds. India has that right.

addngkr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:07:09 AM
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uncoverer, now you really need to read the link provided by me.

I am eagerly waiting for your response.

[You always tend to engage yourself in an argument and not a discussion. You are more keen on disproving others instead of perceiving the importance of the discussion. I hope that you do understand the difference between an argument and a discussion!]
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:15:06 AM
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Lol, Peter, I am not lucky. I knew all the way what I was saying, and so did all the other members who realized the importance of the issue. Now you are just conjuring up your own stories.
Are you saying Canada is so weak on its knees just because of India? Or the media? Why? If really they were right, they would have challenged the allegations. But they didn't. They had their chance. They took their time. And came up with an apology.

I think it was a mistake by SOME canadian officials, as is always the case whenever there is such a diplomatic row. And the matter has ended quite well, with both the govts. acting responsibly. So, I am happy. .

And to answer your question: yes, India has its shady organization. But BSF? Sorry, then it would be like saying India itself is a 'shady' country. SInce BSF is a govt. organization. The IB, yes. They CAN be shady. But as you said, so are all secret service organizations.

But the focus was on BSF mainly. It is India's first and last line of defence on the Kashmir borders.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:19:27 AM

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peterhewett wrote:

My gut feeling is that the Canadian Visa officials were most likely right but because of the hue and cry on the part of the Indian government they have been made scapegoats.

You may feel you were justified, but you are lucky over the outcome, and your appeal was sheer rank nationalism. Be assured India like others has shady orgaizations that you are not in the know about.


Peter, your gut feeling has nothing to do with the truth. Better to keep it with yourself only.

And you are saying Canadian officials have been made scapegoats. Are you nuts? Raising voice against injustice and false allegations is not only nationalim, but standing by the truth. Do you understand?

And, yes. Other nation's security agencies also have dark past (India too). Let them come out and discuss those. I will ask whether those incidents (by any nation's security agency) is sufficient enough to put a remark like “notoriously violent units engaged in systematic torture”
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:20:35 AM
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Peter said:
The link to the Indian paper provides no proofs of is claims that the Canadians had apologised.


Oh My God (yes, I feel like becoming a theist all of a suddend'oh! d'oh! d'oh! )
Let's see what others say about it.Silenced
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:21:06 AM
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KM said


I knew all the way what I was saying

peter says

Did you... no you were acting as an offended Indian driven by nationaal pride in my view and that is not pleasant. Still we don't know the real reasons. I have seen nothing from the Canadians.

So will these people be let in now or are the Visa's still refused?

kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:25:00 AM
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peterhewett wrote:

KM said


I knew all the way what I was saying

peter says

Did you... no you were acting as an offended Indian driven by nationaal pride in my view and thsat is not pleasant. Still we don't know the real reasons. I have seen nothing from the Canadians.

So will these people be let in now or are the Visa's still refused?



Yes I did. The news I saw was to the point. Showing the real people, quoting real words from the Canadian govt. And now, the CN govt. has aplogized. But you deny that they have, of course you have the right to. There surely will be a video somewhere of Canadian officials giving their apology...But of course, you and other cynics can point out that those videos are also staged.

When are you going to believe anything?? Do we have to arrange for the Canadian PM to come visit you, just to clarify??d'oh! d'oh!
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:26:13 AM
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I is not a good idea to believe you know all things that are happening within Governments, and their agencies.

It is also not a good idea to believe all you read from your National Press.
Any one who believes they do not have their own agenda, is being naive.

Australia has just this week expelled an Israeli Ambassador.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:26:25 AM
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srirr wrote:
peterhewett wrote:

My gut feeling is that the Canadian Visa officials were most likely right but because of the hue and cry on the part of the Indian government they have been made scapegoats.

You may feel you were justified, but you are lucky over the outcome, and your appeal was sheer rank nationalism. Be assured India like others has shady orgaizations that you are not in the know about.


Peter, your gut feeling has nothing to do with the truth. Better to keep it with yourself only.

And you are saying Canadian officials have been made scapegoats. Are you nuts? Raising voice against injustice and false allegations is not only nationalim, but standing by the truth. Do you understand?

And, yes. Other nation's security agencies also have dark past (India too). Let them come out and discuss those. I will ask whether those incidents (by any nation's security agency) is sufficient enough to put a remark like “notoriously violent units engaged in systematic torture”


Ditto. Really, he has gone nuts.d'oh! Now he is even saying that addngkr's link is not telling the truth. Unbelievable.Brick wall
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:27:39 AM
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I just found this

Canada ‘regrets’ refusal of Indian visas
India Blooms News Service
quote
The Government of Canada, therefore, deeply regrets the recent incident in which letters drafted by public service officials during routine visa refusals to Indian nationals cast false aspersions on the legitimacy of work carried out by Indian defence and security institutions, which operate under the framework of democratic processes and the rule of law,” Kenney said in the state.
unquote

So that is from the horses mouth.

What does not alter is the nationalistic cry and fervour that raised it's
ugly head. There is no way that I would get so hot under the collar over a seeming insult to any body in my country.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:28:33 AM

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peterhewett wrote:

KM said


I knew all the way what I was saying

peter says

Did you... no you were acting as an offended Indian driven by nationaal pride in my view and thsat is not pleasant. Still we don't know the real reasons. I have seen nothing from the Canadians.

So will these people be let in now or are the Visa's still refused?



Comon Old Pet. Grow up. Learn to learn. What you think and say is not always correct. You are acting like an ostrich shoving your head deep inside sand and presuming that is the reality.
addngkr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:32:32 AM
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The link to the Indian paper provides no proofs of is claims that the Canadians had apologised.

*Sigh*

Height of irrationality!! Brick wall
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:33:00 AM
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Grow up? Come come my young friend. Let me remind you it was me that said we did not know all the facts and to wait for them. You and Km and others were ranting like rabid nationalists. I still defend to the hilt Canadians right to refuse any Indian, or anyone, entry to its land and they should not be intimidated by self righteous hue and cry of the offended nationalaists.
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:34:31 AM
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addngkr You may sigh all you like... you obviously only take on board that which suits you . Sigh away dear fellow.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:34:46 AM
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Peter, for heaven's sake, stop being ridiculous. What are you going on about?
So, Canada HAS apologized, as you yourself found out. IT would be underestimating the Canadian govt. to think that they could not have backed the statements about BSF if they really had proofs or evidences for them. They obviously don't have any. And while they can deny visas without grounds even (though I don't like that being done by ANY nation) they simply CANNOT use such baseless accusations as grounds for the denials. That is what the objection was about, that is what the media went on about, the Indian govt. objected to and finally the Canadian govt. finally apologized of having done.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:35:21 AM

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peterhewett wrote:


Canada ‘regrets’ refusal of Indian visas
India Blooms News Service
The Government of Canada, therefore, deeply regrets the recent incident in which letters drafted by public service officials during routine visa refusals to Indian nationals cast false aspersions on the legitimacy of work carried out by Indian defence and security institutions, which operate under the framework of democratic processes and the rule of law,” Kenney said in the state.

So that is from the horses mouth.

What does not alter is the nationalistic cry and fervour that raised it's ugly head. There is no way that I would get so hot under the collar over a seeming insult to any body in my country.



Now atleast one thing is sure. You made my laugh. I dont know what to say to you except laughing at you. You said someone is layman, does not know the facts, the story is not balanced and blah blah blah. And you are arguing for something you are not aware of.

Old Pal! The thread is all yours (from my side) Keep on muttering.

(And I am rolling on the floor. Thanks man.)
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:38:04 AM
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What I am saying is the whole tone of you group of Indians was over the top. Canada has apologised to avoid diplomatic fuss. It's officials have been made scapegoats. Be assured there will be more to come. Are the Indian authorities so forthcoming as to why they refuse visa's? I ask again...have the Indians in question been awarded visa's now?
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:44:24 AM
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Addy old bean. You are such a cocky sod are you not. You are a layman ...we all are.If you do not understand that then you are a fool. We all depend on the media. Crow as you roll on the floor all you like that fact is not altered by your silly behaviour. We are all layman in this difference.


Please note that it was me that found the link that stated the Canadian Governments position and it was me that posted it...and it was me that made the honest search. Would you have been so honest and forthcoming... I doubt it. I was never worried that I might be wrong... I am quiet sure that if I had produced evidence to the contrary you would have continued to argue the point. I have seen you do that in the past. Wrong for me is not a problem... being right for you most certainly is.


abcxyz
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:53:15 AM
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Well in a way this discussion was certainly illuminating. First it takes two pages of the thread to point out the obvious fact that we Indians object to BSF being termed a 'notoriously violent unit'. Then, after the news that Canada apologised comes into light and the discussion is about to end, peterhewett posts the same facts that addngkr posted earlier. The strange thing is earlier he was going on about hearing the Canadian side of the story and all that jazz, but now that he has heard it instead of admitting that Indian media were speaking the truth about it, he finds this topic a manifestation of ugly nationalistic fervor. This is really getting tiring for me, so instead of wasting another two pages to make him see the facts I'm withdrawing from here.
There is one thing I'd like to mention. Mr Hewett wrote: There is no way that I would get so hot under the collar over a seeming insult to any body in my country.
Just a reminder, when oxymoron started a thread about the Jalianwalabagh Massacre, it was Mr Hewett to whom the discussion seemed offensive.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:55:10 AM

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abcxyz wrote:
Well in a way this discussion was certainly illuminating. First it takes two pages of the thread to point out the obvious fact that we Indians object to BSF being termed a 'notoriously violent unit'. Then, after the news that Canada apologised comes into light and the discussion is about to end, peterhewett posts the same facts that addngkr posted earlier. The strange thing is earlier he was going on about hearing the Canadian side of the story and all that jazz, but now that he has heard it instead of admitting that Indian media were speaking the truth about it, he finds this topic a manifestation of ugly nationalistic fervor. This is really getting tiring for me, so instead of wasting another two pages to make him see the facts I'm withdrawing from here.
There is one thing I'd like to mention. Mr Hewett wrote: There is no way that I would get so hot under the collar over a seeming insult to any body in my country.
Just a reminder, when oxymoron started a thread about the Jalianwalabagh Massacre, it was Mr Hewett to whom the discussion seemed offensive.


Mind blowing. Applause Applause

(I am still rolling on the floor. )
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:01:41 AM
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srirr wrote:
abcxyz wrote:
Well in a way this discussion was certainly illuminating. First it takes two pages of the thread to point out the obvious fact that we Indians object to BSF being termed a 'notoriously violent unit'. Then, after the news that Canada apologised comes into light and the discussion is about to end, peterhewett posts the same facts that addngkr posted earlier. The strange thing is earlier he was going on about hearing the Canadian side of the story and all that jazz, but now that he has heard it instead of admitting that Indian media were speaking the truth about it, he finds this topic a manifestation of ugly nationalistic fervor. This is really getting tiring for me, so instead of wasting another two pages to make him see the facts I'm withdrawing from here.
There is one thing I'd like to mention. Mr Hewett wrote: There is no way that I would get so hot under the collar over a seeming insult to any body in my country.
Just a reminder, when oxymoron started a thread about the Jalianwalabagh Massacre, it was Mr Hewett to whom the discussion seemed offensive.


Mind blowing. Applause Applause

(I am still rolling on the floor. )


Indeed, really well put abzxyz. Kind of sums up the three pages long titanic struggle which saw the rise and fall of the Hewett empire!! And the subsequent counter attacks as well, only there is no ammunition left in their ranks!
Just trying to look unique and skeptical has proved to be a fatal mistake for Hewett & co.
As for your last line about the Jalianwalabagh thread, you are absolutely spot on. I remember it was Peter whose ire was sparked. And I remember having fully supported addngkr's stand and I would do it again, gladly.
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:05:08 AM
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Who are 'they'?
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:11:32 AM
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peterhewett wrote:
Canada has apologised to avoid diplomatic fuss. It's officials have been made scapegoats.


No, that is not why Canada has done this. If they had worried about diplomatic row, then they would not have said such things about a friendly nation's govt. organizations in the first place. And if they had done it thinking the accusations against the BSF were right, then they would have stood their ground. They didn't.
I refuse to believe that the govt. of a country can be so weak in their knees that they can't even back something they believe is right, especially if they have sufficient evidence to support their claims.

Also, the Canadian govt. has clearly said that only some of its consul officers were to blame for this blunder. That is understandable, as they had derived their bit of news from 'open sources'. Now, stop blaming us for believing in a media that was the sole medium through which this entire fiasco came into everyone's, including the govt's notice, and start figuring out the shortcomings of the Canadian officials who had resorted to imprudent and injudicious ways of acquiring information about another nation. Very, very irresponsible.

Here's that quote about the Canadian officials:

"It has now come out that these officials drew on “open sources” of information while telling visa officials that their serving or former organisations were human rights violators. "

kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:12:29 AM
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Tovarish wrote:
Who are 'they'?


Captain Hewett, vice captain uncoverer and corporal StarSeeker.
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:14:27 AM
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OK
addngkr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:16:15 AM
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Addy old bean. You are such a cocky sod are you not. You are a layman ...we all are.If you do not understand that then you are a fool.


Applause Applause Applause


Mr. peterhewett, I was pleasantly surprised by the TITLES of APPRECIATION that you've showered upon me. So gracious of you. I am honored! thank-you!!



If you read my previous post you'll clearly see that I WAS NOT waging a personal war against anybody here. I said this then and am repeating it again - I(kisholoy, srirr, abcxyz and every Indian) have no problem with Canada's immigration laws. They Have the full right to allow or avoid alien people from stepping on their soil.

What I(we) stated was that their allegations on the BSF(and not IB) were falsely stated, without proper knowledge about the organization and the work that it carries.


But I(we) was misinterpreted by you and all alike!

And now even the Canadian Govt. seems to have rectified the mistake. But still my friend, you carry the discussion ahead as a personal battle. [I can defend myself against you for the comments that you have thrown upon me. But I know they 'll be considered as rantings of a baboon. So I Keep Quite!]


And now your comments made me smile. :)

Thank-you once again. :)
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:19:49 AM
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abc and addngkr, you two make me go


[image not available]


Addngkr wrote:
And now even the Canadian Govt. seems to have rectified the mistake. But still my friend, you carry the discussion ahead as a personal battle.

Yes indeed.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:35:54 AM

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And, something just strikes me. The thread contains a few posts that say about national security and policies of Canada.

I have a doubt. Is national security policy and immigration policy of Canada so lame that it surrenders to some so-called "hue and cry" and "other nations' cry and fervour"? Is the national security policy so weak that the government makes its officials scapegoats and agrees to revise its policies following "nationalist views" exptressed by someone in this forum?
I should suggest our leaders to make a "fuss" of all the issues so that other nations agree to their terms.

What an argument? And imagine, who is talking?



(What a laugh I am having)
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:40:43 AM
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abczyz

Just a reminder, when oxymoron started a thread about the Jalianwalabagh Massacre, it was Mr Hewett to whom the discussion seemed offensive.
Back to top

[Just a reminder, when oxymoron started a thread about the Jalianwalabagh Massacre, it was Mr Hewett to whom the discussion seemed offensive.
Back to top

peter says.

I am so glad that you have brought that up. You are so wrong. Go back to the post. What upset me was the self-righteousness and affected horror. It was almost laughable how so called ‘blood boiling’ could occur over a ninety year old happening and yet the real issues be swept under the carpet or glossed over.
I pointed out India’s poor, and the dreadful and shameful lack of action of successive Indian governments to do anything. I also drew attention to the awful and shameful attitude of the middle classes of India toward the poor. I have also have pointed the wicked caste system which still reverberates throughout India.
It irked me that an Indian could profess to have his blood boil over the ninety year old happening and yet not shout from the rooftops the inequality between the poor and the rich.

The point of my post was it is all very well to get hot under the collar about a long past event but what about the living!!
THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TROUBLED BY …READ THE POST AGAIN.
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:43:17 AM
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SrirrWhat a laugh I am having)

peter says

That says a lot about doesn't it. You are a cocky little sod with an extremely small mind.

Have you never heard that sometimes govermnets will stand down for the sake of peace? It's called diplomacy. You are obviously unacquainted with such a thing do to your undue pride.

Perhaps you would like to address the post above this? Was it you whose blood boiled?



Let's see if you remain on the floor laughing when you read that.
srirr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:46:01 AM

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peterhewett wrote:

That says a lot about doesn't it. You are a cocky little sod with an extremely small mind.



Same to you!

( Yes, I am still rolling on the floor.)

kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:59:03 AM
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peterhewett wrote:


I am so glad that you have brought that up. You are so wrong. Go back to the post. What upset me was the self-righteousness and affected horror. It was almost laughable how so called ‘blood boiling’ could occur over a ninety year old happening and yet the real issues be swept under the carpet or glossed over.
I pointed out India’s poor, and the dreadful and shameful lack of action of successive Indian governments to do anything. I also drew attention to the awful and shameful attitude of the middle classes of India toward the poor. I have also have pointed the wicked caste system which still reverberates throughout India.
It irked me that an Indian could profess to have his blood boil over the ninety year old happening and yet not shout from the rooftops the inequality between the poor and the rich.

The point of my post was it is all very well to get hot under the collar about a long past event but what about the living!!
THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TROUBLED BY …READ THE POST AGAIN.


Peter, that is a terrible generalization of Middle class Indians. Yes, there is a lot of evil in the society, there is poverty and there is also the caste system. It is not that we middle class just sit and do nothing. But we have our lives to lead as well. We do have our share of problems as well. You might want to think that we lead a life of roses, us middle class. But you are woefully wrong if you think so. We try to contribute to our society by doing as much as we can. Of course, some are corrupt or bad people, and still others are extremely good human beings, who go beyond their means even to help the poor. And this is not just the case with the middle class.

If you would have known a bit about India, India's middle class is thinning out rapidly, almost to a zero, leaving only rich class and lower class. This is a statistical fact, I wouldn't care if you don't agree.

We do protest all the time, and right here on tfd, if you see the Census on castes thread, you will see that we are definitely opposing the wrong doings in India.

As for that Ja'bagh thread, addngkr was well within his rights to express his disgust about THOSE BRITISHERS who had committed the crime. The heinous, inhuman acts of cruelty. He had meant them only in his post. I jumped to his defence then, and I do it now. Every nation does it; they despise those who had done something terrible against their countrymen, back in time. Indians are no exception as well. That doesn't mean addngkr was meaning to point out TODAY's generation of Britishers.

You have an awful knowledge of India, Peter, I have said that before. You tell people of their 'limited knowledge' and that they are laymen, well that best suits you, in matters of India especially. You have a stupid and uneducated, partial and biased viewpoint about India. Your reaction in that thread in reply to addngkr was totally uncalled for and the subsequent comments about India only manifested a severe lack of understanding of the country.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:07:16 AM
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peterhewett wrote:
SrirrWhat a laugh I am having)

peter says

That says a lot about doesn't it. You are a cocky little sod with an extremely small mind.

Have you never heard that sometimes govermnets will stand down for the sake of peace? It's called diplomacy. You are obviously unacquainted with such a thing do to your undue pride.

Perhaps you would like to address the post above this? Was it you whose blood boiled?



Let's see if you remain on the floor laughing when you read that.


That's not how it works does it? You just keep pressing on lies and keep ignoring facts, okay, then people will laugh, upto a certain point. But you start abusing people, you don't expect them to remain cool.

But I have a feeling, I am way more impulsive, though am honest and straightforward. I am good at heart, but I cannot keep my cool, when confronted with disgusting individuals whose only job these days seems to be heckling me (not talking about you here, but everyone knows who). Srirr on the other hand is way more tactful and despite your uncalled for bad behavior, he is still trying his best to keep his cool.
Sometimes people are pushed to the limit when they are forced to stop being civil.
Is this really the battle you want to win Peter? Just keeping on provoking unnecessarily till someone is forced to lose his temper and speak out in foul language? Another person in this forum does that, but you please do not do that. You have great writing skills, why don't you just please settle down in your head and for a moment just tell yourself, "Okay, perhaps they are right. Let me get rid of my pride for a while and try to know the facts."
addngkr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:08:13 AM
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peterhewett: What upset me was the self-righteousness and affected horror. It was almost laughable how so called ‘blood boiling’ could occur over a ninety year old happening and yet the real issues be swept under the carpet or glossed over.
I pointed out India’s poor, and the dreadful and shameful lack of action of successive Indian governments to do anything. I also drew attention to the awful and shameful attitude of the middle classes of India toward the poor. I have also have pointed the wicked caste system which still reverberates throughout India.
It irked me that an Indian could profess to have his blood boil over the ninety year old happening and yet not shout from the rooftops the inequality between the poor and the rich.

The point of my post was it is all very well to get hot under the collar about a long past event but what about the living!!
THAT WAS WHAT I WAS TROUBLED BY …READ THE POST AGAIN.




addngkr says...

I didn't want to reply to this one, but am doing so because I felt a provoked.
It was me who said that my blood boiled over the event that had unleashed the brutality of the Brits (no offense to anyone!) then. And that, I think, would be natural response of any person on whose countrymen such heinous act was inflicted. But then you wouldn't understand that peter.

AND! My reply to you then was that the Indian Govt., Indians, NGOs aren't sitting like lame ducks. India is huge nation with second largest population to feed to. Measures are being taken on that. So many employment opportunities have been created under numerous plans by the Government. But YOU know about India more than me, don't you peter because your wisdom and knowledge are too great to be fathomed by "Laymen" like me. YOU know about India more than me(because you have been to India a couple of times and your friends reside here).



YOU NEED TO TAKE LOOK AT THAT POST TOO, PETER.

addngkr
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:08:56 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/2010
Posts: 166
Neurons: 512
Location: Face of Earth
"As for that Ja'bagh thread, addngkr was well within his rights to express his disgust about THOSE BRITISHERS who had committed the crime."


Precisely.
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