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US Pakistan relations?? Future plans?? Options
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Sunday, May 9, 2010 5:02:27 PM
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Recent bombing attempt at Times Square has Hilary Clinton fuming and she has reportedly warned Pakistan of 'severe consequences' if terror plots in future can be linked back to Pakistan.

Here is an excerpt from the report:

NEW DELHI: THE US has warned Pakistan of “severe consequences” if it is linked to a terror attack in the US. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that Pakistan had to take action on terror or face consequences in the event of an attack on the US. “We’ve made it very clear that if, heaven-forbid, an attack like this that we can trace back to Pakistan were to have been successful, there would be very severe consequences,” Ms Clinton said in an interview to CBS’ 60 Minutes programme.

This is the sternest warning to emerge from the Obama administration in the aftermath of the Times Square failed bombing and is also an indication of the increasing pressure on Islamabad to take action against Taliban safe havens and the Al Qaeda. Pakistani links have emerged in the US investigations with accused Shahzad Faisal confessing to jehadi training in a terror camp in South Waziristan. He was also reportedly in touch with his Pakistani handlers right up to carrying out the bomb attack.

Khan
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 3:33:50 AM
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what is this. It is political forum to highlight the political issues.It is not the right place to blame one country or another for doing wrong doing or whatsoever.It creates tension and hatred for one another.For God sake dont discuss these issues here. It is an educational forum where you can discuss social problems not political.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 1:33:44 PM
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Khan wrote:
what is this. It is political forum to highlight the political issues.It is not the right place to blame one country or another for doing wrong doing or whatsoever.It creates tension and hatred for one another.For God sake dont discuss these issues here. It is an educational forum where you can discuss social problems not political.


It is a political thread. So I posted a topic on politics here. I am not blaming any country. These are facts or news. Education means learning about what is going on around you as well. So I think meaningful contributions from the different posters can make this thread educational as well, just like any other on this forum.
You are welcome to comment on the presented topic. Thank you.
addngkr
Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:28:18 AM
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I think there is nothing wrong with the thread. And Mr. Khan, your view was a biased one. Kisholoy is just raising the thread for discussion of the most pressing problem that we are facing today!

And today a Pakistani civil engineer was caught in a Pakistani airport. He was carrying some batteries and electronic stuff hidden in his shoes! Though his intentions weren't clear but every time I read such news it makes me think - Is There Really A Solution To This Problem?! I mean it's not just about some political ambitions of these people... they can be solved. It's about their mentality that we are dealing with! Can we change them?!!
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:03:55 PM
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addngkr wrote:
I think there is nothing wrong with the thread. And Mr. Khan, your view was a biased one. Kisholoy is just raising the thread for discussion of the most pressing problem that we are facing today!

And today a Pakistani civil engineer was caught in a Pakistani airport. He was carrying some batteries and electronic stuff hidden in his shoes! Though his intentions weren't clear but every time I read such news it makes me think - Is There Really A Solution To This Problem?! I mean it's not just about some political ambitions of these people... they can be solved. It's about their mentality that we are dealing with! Can we change them?!!


Thank you, adarsh. That was exactly my point.
marylamb
Posted: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:55:13 PM
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addngkr: "Is There Really A Solution To This Problem?!" Uh, maybe... how about a finger stick blood test for everyone who boards a plane or other public transportation system. One drop of blood can reveal high levels of cortisol and adrenalin, the hormones responsible for fear and sneaky behavior.
addngkr
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:14:02 AM
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I thought we were into a more serious discussion, marylamb.

But anyway I am pretty much sure that it won't take much time for our terrorist pals to find a way to escape that too!!
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 5:46:01 AM
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Now Hilary Clinton has clearly stated that there are some people in the Pakistani govt. who know the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda. It is about time the Pakistani govt. comes clean and starts working on the regions where they have not been concentrating their forces by giving some false excuses. One of those regions happen to be the paradise of the Taliban..Waziristan.
HWNN1961
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 1:27:07 PM
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For one, I hope that the relationship between Pakistan and the USA continues and grows.

For their part, the Pakistanis finally have to deal once and for all with the terrorist organizations in Waziristan. Half measures are useless. Thus, far, after being stung by the failed peace deal over the Swat valley, their military has launched offensives in the southern part of this provice.

Thus far, they have left the most virulent of these groups centered in Northern Waziristan, alone. There are claims taht Pakistan is allowing these groups safe haven to use them in negotiations with the Kabul government. Also, the fact that many of these people are veterans of the guerilla war over Kashimir makes the military reluctant to attack them, despite their ever growing resume of successful and failed plots world-wide.

Now, there are open threats from the Taliban in Pakistan to target the USA. The Pakistanis have to drop their double-dealings and eliminate the threat.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 1:30:27 PM
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HWNN1961 wrote:
For one, I hope that the relationship between Pakistan and the USA continues and grows.

For their part, the Pakistanis finally have to deal once and for all with the terrorist organizations in Waziristan. Half measures are useless. Thus, far, after being stung by the failed peace deal over the Swat valley, their military has launched offensives in the southern part of this provice.

Thus far, they have left the most virulent of these groups centered in Northern Waziristan, alone. There are claims taht Pakistan is allowing these groups safe haven to use them in negotiations with the Kabul government. Also, the fact that many of these people are veterans of the guerilla war over Kashimir makes the military reluctant to attack them, despite their ever growing resume of successful and failed plots world-wide.

Now, there are open threats from the Taliban in Pakistan to target the USA. The Pakistanis have to drop their double-dealings and eliminate the threat.


I completely agree with your points. However, I fail to understand why the US is still selling weapons to the Pakistan at a time when the Pakistani govt. needs to be put under more pressure to launch a full-scale offensive in the most infested regions in their backyard? I have read that there are some criticizers of this policy of US amongst some Americans also.
Maggie
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 4:26:13 PM
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kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
However, I fail to understand why the US is still selling weapons to the Pakistan at a time when the Pakistani govt. needs to be put under more pressure to launch a full-scale offensive in the most infested regions in their backyard? I have read that there are some criticizers of this policy of US amongst some Americans also.


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India. These are very troubling times and make for strange bedfellows.

Angel
HWNN1961
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 9:56:53 PM
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The diplomats call it "constructive engagement". It is a policy applied unevenly across the globe by the USA. The belief is that the US has more influence as long as we continue to work with and cooperate with a government, even one doing some things we don't like.

For example: Pakistan pretends to protest when we pretend to neither deny nor confirm predator drone strikes in their lawless regions.

It brings to mind the old adage: if you enjoy sausage, never watch the sausage maker. It's a messy process. Unfortunately, dipmlomacy is an exercise in byzantine logic.
Geeman
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 10:09:32 PM

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Well, politicians are going to play their little games, but unless someone comes up with a more direct link to Pakistan than just the fact that this guy hailed from there before he came to the U.S., I don't think anyone can reasonably hold that country responsible for the Times Square bombing attempt. There are plenty of legitimate things for us to be worried about in Pakistan (like, apparently, Osama bin Laden....) We don't really need to make an association like this one unless there is good evidence that supports the allegation.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:14:01 AM
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Geeman wrote:
Well, politicians are going to play their little games, but unless someone comes up with a more direct link to Pakistan than just the fact that this guy hailed from there before he came to the U.S., I don't think anyone can reasonably hold that country responsible for the Times Square bombing attempt. There are plenty of legitimate things for us to be worried about in Pakistan (like, apparently, Osama bin Laden....) We don't really need to make an association like this one unless there is good evidence that supports the allegation.


I think there are some evidences linking Faisal Shahzad to Pakistan.
See this:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Pakistan/Bomb-plot-will-put-heat-on-Pakistan-/articleshow/5906110.cms
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/05/times_square_bombing.php
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:16:13 AM
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HWNN1961 wrote:
The diplomats call it "constructive engagement". It is a policy applied unevenly across the globe by the USA. The belief is that the US has more influence as long as we continue to work with and cooperate with a government, even one doing some things we don't like.

For example: Pakistan pretends to protest when we pretend to neither deny nor confirm predator drone strikes in their lawless regions.

It brings to mind the old adage: if you enjoy sausage, never watch the sausage maker. It's a messy process. Unfortunately, dipmlomacy is an exercise in byzantine logic.


But is there any other country which uses the drone attacks??
Also, since you are an ex-military, can you please tell me about the drone technology in brief, especially in terms of accuracy, chances of collateral damages etc.?
HWNN1961
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:36:08 AM
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K.M.

First: the drone technology itself is fantastically accurate. The technology is real time control to those remotely piloting the flying bomb. It has the limits that cannot be overcome by anything but good judgement and good information:

1. Human error: in a case of mistaken identity, you kill an innocent victim.
2. Even if you can properly identify the target, there is the moral decision to be made when innocents are too close to avoid harm.
3. Small chance of mechanical failure.

I think that Israel is developing a drone. Even Saddam Hussein was working on a crude one.

The example of "constructive engagement" was not meant to focus on drones. Another example would be Richard Nixon's visit to China. Members of the far right of his party were aghast. But, he thought we could influence China better by strengthening ties. Another example: The Reagan admin refusing to cut ties to South Africa during Aparteid. I, and many others, were furious with this approach.
HWNN1961
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2010 10:38:44 AM
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Geeman wrote:
Well, politicians are going to play their little games, but unless someone comes up with a more direct link to Pakistan than just the fact that this guy hailed from there before he came to the U.S., I don't think anyone can reasonably hold that country responsible for the Times Square bombing attempt. There are plenty of legitimate things for us to be worried about in Pakistan (like, apparently, Osama bin Laden....) We don't really need to make an association like this one unless there is good evidence that supports the allegation.


Geeman, even if there turns out to be no connection, there were a string of attacks linked to these groups, the worst of which were the Mumbai terror attacks. Also, they are making blatant threats to attack the US.
whizkid08
Posted: Sunday, May 16, 2010 1:51:53 PM
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Obviously, they are not so out-of-wits to issue such a warning to a nation that produces terrorists, without an evidence! Evidence would not be stronger than a confession though and this man, Shahzad Faisal, has confessed that he received bomb-making training from Pakistani Talibans. Also, he had contacts with Baitullah who was killed in 2009 drone strikes. Isn't that enough to convict him for the attempted Times Square bombing?!
whizkid08
Posted: Sunday, May 16, 2010 1:54:20 PM
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And as an evidence, there were snipers and bombs found in his car and he had accepted that he was inspired by the cause taken up by Al-Qayeda.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:21:39 PM
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whizkid08 wrote:
And as an evidence, there were snipers and bombs found in his car and he had accepted that he was inspired by the cause taken up by Al-Qayeda.


Yes, he was trained by Qari Hussain, a very prominent terrorist.
avatar
Posted: Friday, May 21, 2010 2:18:26 AM
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Maggie wrote:


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India.




Why on earth would India attack the USA?
Does India have any history of attacking countries that have not provoked (asked for) it?
And if India were to attack any country, don't you think they have more deserving targets than the USA?
Maggie
Posted: Friday, May 21, 2010 11:34:38 AM
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avatar wrote:
Maggie wrote:


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India.




Why on earth would India attack the USA?
Does India have any history of attacking countries that have not provoked (asked for) it?
And if India were to attack any country, don't you think they have more deserving targets than the USA?



A little dry humor, perchance?
avatar
Posted: Sunday, May 23, 2010 1:29:02 AM
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Maggie wrote:
avatar wrote:
Maggie wrote:


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India.




Why on earth would India attack the USA?
Does India have any history of attacking countries that have not provoked (asked for) it?
And if India were to attack any country, don't you think they have more deserving targets than the USA?



A little dry humor, perchance?



Why on earth would India attack the USA?
whizkid08
Posted: Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:44:25 AM
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Maggie wrote:
avatar wrote:


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India.




Why on earth would India attack the USA?
Does India have any history of attacking countries that have not provoked (asked for) it?
And if India were to attack any country, don't you think they have more deserving targets than the USA?


Completely agreed with avatar. If India was to attack any country there are more deserving targets already namely China an Pakistan. China has been constantly deploying its troops on the sensitive border and there have been heated arguments between Home Minister and the counterparts.
Perhaps, US is arming Pakistan to enable it to combat the terrorism although it has been producing and training them. Taliban is eyeing Pakistan with an intention to rule the country.
Maggie
Posted: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:44:47 AM
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whizkid08 wrote:
Maggie wrote:
avatar wrote:


We're arming Pakistan as a hedge against the U.S. being attacked by India.




Why on earth would India attack the USA?
Does India have any history of attacking countries that have not provoked (asked for) it?
And if India were to attack any country, don't you think they have more deserving targets than the USA?


Completely agreed with avatar. If India was to attack any country there are more deserving targets already namely China an Pakistan. China has been constantly deploying its troops on the sensitive border and there have been heated arguments between Home Minister and the counterparts.
Perhaps, US is arming Pakistan to enable it to combat the terrorism although it has been producing and training them. Taliban is eyeing Pakistan with an intention to rule the country.


A little dry humor, perchance?
whizkid08
Posted: Monday, May 24, 2010 11:21:50 PM
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Lol! Okay, got your point! Thanks for highlighting. :)
Jeech
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:06:54 AM
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Let me put this article to make you THINK:

A Tale of Two Terrors: Times Square vs. Jacksonville
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:17:58 PM
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Jeech wrote:
Let me put this article to make you THINK:

A Tale of Two Terrors: Times Square vs. Jacksonville


Yes, the things said in that article are true, Jeech. Indeed, muslims worldwide are being targeted for the bad work of a handful of ill-intentioned individuals. I am fully supportive of all those Muslim brothers & sisters who are just here in this world to live peacefully. :)
Jeech
Posted: Saturday, May 29, 2010 7:13:09 AM
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I don't think American people hate Pakistan or Pakistanis; they understand Pakistan sacrificed the most for the recent American wars. Pakistan have given more blood of their precious young-men to American people's security than America itself. They know American institutions have been manufacturing militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan(1980*) with coalition of Pakistani dictator. They know America have power to bomb countries to stone age if not followed to the American path by creating hoax of terror. Iraq never attacked America but American people know what Iraqi people paid for.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, May 29, 2010 8:54:30 PM
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Jeech wrote:
Pakistan have given more blood of their precious young-men to American people's security than America itself.


Can you back that statement up with proof? We all know that US has a heterogenous culture, with many Indians, Pakistanis and people from all over the world contributing to everything starting from software companies to security.
But, a friendly word of advice: please don't make an overstatement, or else the credibility of the truth hidden in it gets dampened.
Jeech
Posted: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 12:06:31 PM
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kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
Jeech wrote:
Pakistan have given more blood of their precious young-men to American people's security than America itself.


Can you back that statement up with proof? We all know that US has a heterogenous culture, with many Indians, Pakistanis and people from all over the world contributing to everything starting from software companies to security.
But, a friendly word of advice: please don't make an overstatement, or else the credibility of the truth hidden in it gets dampened.


OK, you tell me first how many Pakistanis have given their lives for such a war?
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Wednesday, June 2, 2010 1:28:01 AM
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Jeech wrote:
kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
Jeech wrote:
Pakistan have given more blood of their precious young-men to American people's security than America itself.


Can you back that statement up with proof? We all know that US has a heterogenous culture, with many Indians, Pakistanis and people from all over the world contributing to everything starting from software companies to security.
But, a friendly word of advice: please don't make an overstatement, or else the credibility of the truth hidden in it gets dampened.


OK, you tell me first how many Pakistanis have given their lives for such a war?


That is no logic I am afraid. It is not like a guilty till proven innocent kind of thing. Whatever statement you make, you must be able to back it up. I am not saying that Pakistanis do not help in American secuirty, but so do their own and others. It is not for me but for you to give supporting data since it was you who made the statement.Speak to the hand
Jeech
Posted: Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:28:23 AM
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kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
Jeech wrote:
kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
Jeech wrote:
Pakistan have given more blood of their precious young-men to American people's security than America itself.


Can you back that statement up with proof? We all know that US has a heterogenous culture, with many Indians, Pakistanis and people from all over the world contributing to everything starting from software companies to security.
But, a friendly word of advice: please don't make an overstatement, or else the credibility of the truth hidden in it gets dampened.


OK, you tell me first how many Pakistanis have given their lives for such a war?


That is no logic I am afraid. It is not like a guilty till proven innocent kind of thing. Whatever statement you make, you must be able to back it up. I am not saying that Pakistanis do not help in American secuirty, but so do their own and others. It is not for me but for you to give supporting data since it was you who made the statement.Speak to the hand


You my friend, wrote, "please don't make an overstatement, or else the credibility of the truth hidden in it gets dampened" made me think that you have other source regarding the Pakistani casualty counter. It's really wonderful to know that you know nothing about Pakistani role on war on terror.
Ok, let me help you find out the truth that already dampened:

However, the fall out of Afghan crises has directly affected Pakistani security .The imposed war put Pakistan under worst kind of insurgency. She was forced to deploy more than 140, 000 troops to tackle the foreign sponsored militancy. Her securities forces are busy in elimination of terrorism from the country. Thousand of millions of people and security forces’ personal have been killed because of suicidal bombers and sabotage activities. Pakistani military had launched 209 major and 510 minor operations in 10 regions. According to reliable sources 2,573 Pakistani army officers and soldiers had been martyred in the fighting so far, which include one 3-star General, two 2-star generals and five brigadiers .whereas western ,Jews and Indian media use to blame Pakistan and her intelligence agencies for playing double game. In this connection while talking to senior journalists in Islamabad, Army chief Gen Kayani rejected the allegations of double game leveled against Pakistan intelligence agencies, saying that 73 intelligence officers had embraced martyrdom in Pakistan, while 11 others were martyred in Afghanistan

http://www.daily.pk/how-to-end-war-against-terror-17834/


And

Over 30,000 Pakistani civilians and armed forces personnel have been killed or injured since the global war on terror began in the wake
of the 9/11 attacks, while over 17,000 terrorists have been killed or captured, the country's military said on Thursday.

According to data released by Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), from 9/11 till now, 30,452 people have been killed or injured. These include 21,672 civilians and 8,785 military personnel.

In 2009 alone, when the Pakistani military went into action against the Taliban in the country's restive northwest, 10,000 people were killed, Online news agency reported.

While the breakup of civilian casualties was not given, the ISPR said 78 Pakistani military officers and 2,273 soldiers were killed, while 6,512 were injured.

Pakistan has seen a rash of terror attacks and suicide bombings in the last nine years that have largely targeted civilians, killing a number of women and children.

According to ISPR, 10 soldiers were killed every day since 2009, while 1,582 Afghanistan based US and NATO troops have been killed.

ISPR said 17,742 terrorists had been killed and captured since the war on terror began.

It also pointed out that Pakistan had set up 821 check-posts along the hostile Pakistan-Afghanistan border while the coalition forces in Afghanistan had only set up 112.

Some 140,000 Pakistani troops are manning the Pakistan-Afghanistan border to check infiltration of terrorists and other suspicious activities while the coalition has 100,000 of its troops on the frontier, ISPR said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/Global-war-on-terror-claims-30000-Pakistani-casualties/articleshow/5590230.cms
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Wednesday, June 2, 2010 7:51:24 AM
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Jeech wrote:
It's really wonderful to know that you know nothing about Pakistani roll on war on terror.
Ok, let me help you find out the truth that already dampened:



Jeech, I was not talking about what happens in Pakistan or on the Pak-Afghan border. Of course I know Pakistani troops are employed there. However, that is not for America's security only. Are you saying that Pakistan doesn't want to end terror then? It is in the interest of the entire world including Pakistan's own that Pakistan have employed their troops in that region. Pakistan themselves have been responsible to quite an extent for the growth of terrorism because many of the Talibanis are also in favor of the Kashmir jihad that anti--India elements in Pakistan wage.

I thought you were talking about Pakistanis in America giving their lives for internal security of the US.
Jeech
Posted: Thursday, June 3, 2010 6:04:27 AM
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kisholoy mukherjee wrote:
Jeech wrote:
It's really wonderful to know that you know nothing about Pakistani roll on war on terror.
Ok, let me help you find out the truth that already dampened:



Jeech, I was not talking about what happens in Pakistan or on the Pak-Afghan border. Of course I know Pakistani troops are employed there. However, that is not for America's security only. Are you saying that Pakistan doesn't want to end terror then? It is in the interest of the entire world including Pakistan's own that Pakistan have employed their troops in that region. Pakistan themselves have been responsible to quite an extent for the growth of terrorism because many of the Talibanis are also in favor of the Kashmir jihad that anti--India elements in Pakistan wage.

I thought you were talking about Pakistanis in America giving their lives for internal security of the US.


No, my friend, I clearly said that "Pakistan" did more than America... I don't know what make you think that.... hmm are you in America? I've never been out of the country.

Regarding you say, "Are you saying that Pakistan doesn't want to end terror then? It is in the interest of the entire world including Pakistan's own that Pakistan have employed their troops in that region." I would say, it was American reaction against 911 attacks that Pakistan had to strike with it's fullest strength on terrorists, otherwise our intelligent agencies were already capturing terrorists without any tad "collateral damage." The war policy is not ours it's imposed, we have other ways to eliminate terrorism without such a trillion dollar wars instead, that has caused death of thousands of innocent lives. Taliban are no more different than Mao rebillions of India, are they? Both consider themselves freedom fighters??

Someone quoted someone here that all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others. (don't know should laugh or cry.)
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