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Palestine or Israel? Options
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:00:40 AM
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zorba_lb wrote:
i didnt address anyone when i said that. why do you insist that i said that to you!


Why, I am stupid, that's why!!
Anyway, let us forget it and start over. Sorry for referring to you as a 'he'. I didn't know that you are a female.
HWNN1961
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:46:01 AM
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It's both. In a perfect world: two viable states, side by side, cooperating economically.

And, Jerusalem should be an open city, administered by the UN, with members of all faiths welcome to visit and worship.
uncoverer
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:11:31 PM
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Speak of the Devil...

Drool
Luftmarque
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:02:17 PM

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OK then, it's Pisreal & Israelistine. And, Peter, the haitch is for "Humble."
zorba_lb
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 5:33:36 AM
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thanks HWNN1961.
that's what the topic was about in the first place.
maggie pops up, changes the topic asking "spain or england" as a lame joke and makes all this mess and runs away, HILARIOUS :D
she even made KM mad at me!

of course i say Palestine. i consider israel non-existent as a country and actually wish that all the zionists die in an earthquake or something.
i dont believe in normalization or in peace when it comes to the palestinian issues.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:59:25 AM
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zorba_lb wrote:
thanks HWNN1961.
that's what the topic was about in the first place.
maggie pops up, changes the topic asking "spain or england" as a lame joke and makes all this mess and runs away, HILARIOUS :D
she even made KM mad at me!


Lol sorry for that episode. I hope we both are over it.

zorba_lb wrote:

of course i say Palestine. i consider israel non-existent as a country and actually wish that all the zionists die in an earthquake or something.
i dont believe in normalization or in peace when it comes to the palestinian issues.


By zionists, do you mean all Israelis? Surely you don't mean that, do you?
What would it look like if I say that I wish all Pakistanis would die in an earthquake? (I don't by the way!!)
Not too good, isn't it?
I think peace is the key to the solution of any problem. We should never turn our faces away from peace. Pray
RARA
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:04:53 AM
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pedro wrote:
so is it Palestine or Israel?


Israel or Palestine?


That is the question!


Is it ever ok for a government, or in this case many to say, "here you go, you don"t have a country, take this one"?

Ok, let's give Wales to the Swedes, the Swedes seem like very nice people so I am sure they will make good use of it.
zorba_lb
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:34:57 AM
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yes rara, exactly!

if the way israel was founded is to be applied to the world,let's take all the muslims of the world to mekka and all the christians to jerusalem and all the atheists to the space, haha..etc.
nobody should be in his own country by now.

KM:by zionists, i mean all the extremists in israel who believe that it's their land and not the palestinians, and who'd do anything to delete palestine from the world's map.for me, those are Fundamentalists just like Al Qae'da guys.the real terrorists!
Joseph Glantz
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:48:15 AM
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zorba_lb wrote:
yes rara, exactly!

if the way israel was founded is to be applied to the world,let's take all the muslims of the world to mekka and all the christians to jerusalem and all the atheists to the space, haha..etc.
nobody should be in his own country by now.

KM:by zionists, i mean all the extremists in israel who believe that it's their land and not the palestinians, and who'd do anything to delete palestine from the world's map.for me, those are Fundamentalists just like Al Qae'da guys.the real terrorists!


I couldn't disagree more. Hooray for Israel! I believe these anti-Israel posts speak for themselves.
zorba_lb
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:49:38 AM
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Since reality forbids that all the israelis go back to where they or their ancestors came from, they can be accepted as citizens of Palestine and follow the laws of the palestinian government just like many immigrants get the nationality of the country they immigrate to. in that case, they are most welcome.
Of course, not all israelis are bad. there are many who realise that it's irrational how their homeland was founded.there are many who immigrated to palestine in search for a better life. there are many out there who can scratch their minds and know that religions shouldnt be the reason for building homelands.

RARA
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:05:04 AM
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Joseph Glantz wrote:

I couldn't disagree more. Hooray for Israel! I believe these anti-Israel posts speak for themselves.


Hooray for you having your own opinion.

I am not anti-Israel.

Simply questioning the validity of taking someones homeland and giving it to anyone else.

Shall we take away your home state and give it to the Mexicans or all the refugees so they can all be together?

FYI am half Mexican so I guess I'm a gonna be getting a new homeland. Whistle
HWNN1961
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:36:35 AM
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zorba_lb wrote:
thanks HWNN1961.
that's what the topic was about in the first place.
maggie pops up, changes the topic asking "spain or england" as a lame joke and makes all this mess and runs away, HILARIOUS :D
she even made KM mad at me!

of course i say Palestine. i consider israel non-existent as a country and actually wish that all the zionists die in an earthquake or something.
i dont believe in normalization or in peace when it comes to the palestinian issues.



The manner of Israel's conception may have been inherently unjust to those already living in the former League of Nations Mandate called Palestine. But, Israel is a reality now, and trying to "undo" what is done will be just as unjust as the former act.

The choice is a fair peace or a blood bath.
MiTziGo
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:24:06 AM
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[quote=zorba_lb]thanks HWNN1961.
that's what the topic was about in the first place.
maggie pops up, changes the topic asking "spain or england" as a lame joke and makes all this mess and runs away, HILARIOUS :D
she even made KM mad at me!

of course i say Palestine. i consider israel non-existent as a country and actually wish that all the zionists die in an earthquake or something.
i dont believe in normalization or in peace when it comes to the palestinian issues.[/
quote]

I have many opinions about this topic, but again, I will refrain from enumerating them here because I know my statements will simply fall on deaf, bigoted ears. How anyone could say that he (she?) hopes that millions of people—men, women, and children; husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, friends, lovers—are killed simply for existing boggles the mind. (It in fact hearkens back to the reason Israel was created in the first place—anyone remember a little guy named Hitler and the 12,000,000 people he liquidated?) With such blatant hatred and hard-heartedness, I find the only solution is to simply walk away from the conversation because you are not here to learn or have a meaningful debate, you are here to prove that you are right and that all Israelis deserve to die.

I applaud those members who realized simply from the tone of your "question" that this thread would bring out the worst in people and chose to head it off at the pass. Unfortunately, the road somehow looped back around.

Israel, I stand with you.
uncoverer
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:08:26 PM
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I agree with you MichaelG that zora_lb expressed an extreme view in her post.However if one were to look beyond her extreme(and foolhardy) rhetoric think it raises some important questions here and i think that the purpose of this forum would not be served if we shy away from it.

It is true that the 2nd world war caused suffering and misery to humanity in general and Jews in particular. Their whole community was uprooted and their culture was on the verge of being extinct.That they were persecuted there is no doubt.

However the people of palestine became a pawn in this game of world politics.
Overnight with one stroke of the pen they were made alien in their own homeland which they have been calling their home for generations.IS that not a travesty of Justice?

Most of the countries in the League of Nations supported or were silent on this.
Was this not a mockery of the institution itself?
For all those who beg to differ with this,i will ask them to consider ,without any prejudice,how they would feel if their home state or county were to be handed over with a stroke of pen without their consent.
Certainly what happened to the Jews was very wrong,but then it was hitler and not any palestinian who wronged them.Then why was it the palestinians who had to pay with their homeland ?
RARA
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:55:22 PM
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uncoverer wrote:
I agree with you MichaelG that zora_lb expressed an extreme view in her post.However if one were to look beyond her extreme(and foolhardy) rhetoric think it raises some important questions here and i think that the purpose of this forum would not be served if we shy away from it.

It is true that the 2nd world war caused suffering and misery to humanity in general and Jews in particular. Their whole community was uprooted and their culture was on the verge of being extinct.That they were persecuted there is no doubt.

However the people of palestine became a pawn in this game of world politics.
Overnight with one stroke of the pen they were made alien in their own homeland which they have been calling their home for generations.IS that not a travesty of Justice?

Most of the countries in the League of Nations supported or were silent on this.
Was this not a mockery of the institution itself?
For all those who beg to differ with this,i will ask them to consider ,without any prejudice,how they would feel if their home state or county were to be handed over with a stroke of pen without their consent.
Certainly what happened to the Jews was very wrong,but then it was hitler and not any palestinian who wronged them.Then why was it the palestinians who had to pay with their homeland ?


Fantastically said.
MiTziGo
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:40:19 PM
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I'd just like to clear up what seems to be a misconception about the history of Israel/Palestine. Prior to Israel's formation (as decided by the UN in 1948), the land was actually under British control (British Mandate) not Palestinian rule. When the UK decided to terminate it's mandate, the UN initially proposed a two-state solution (a side-by-side Jewish and Arab state). The Arab League rejected this offer. When Israel declared its independence—on May 14, 1948—it was immediately (that night) attacked by a coalition of Arab armies (forces from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan (later Jordan), Lebanon, and Iraq). Keep in mind that the country was populated at the time by civilians, many of whom were Holocaust survivors that had only recently arrived from Europe, and that the British forces had not allowed them to form any sort of army in advance of its independence. Despite the wild disadvantages, Israel emerged the victor.

As published by Britannica Encyclopedia: "The Egyptians gained some territory in the south and the Jordanians took Jerusalem's Old City, but the other Arab forces were soon halted. In June the United Nations succeeded in establishing a four-week truce. This was followed in July by significant Israeli advances before another truce. Fighting erupted again in August and continued sporadically until the end of 1948. An Israeli advance in Jan., 1949, isolated Egyptian forces and led to a cease-fire (Jan. 7, 1949). Protracted peace talks resulted in armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Syria, and Jordan by July, but no formal peace. In addition, about 400,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled from Israel and were settled in refugee camps near Israel's border; their status became a volatile factor in Arab-Israeli relations."

This war, whose consequences contributed greatly to the issue of Palestinian refugees, was caused by Arabs, who were the aggressors here. It was their misjudgment of the civilians of Israel, their belief that a united force of five Arab armies could easily quash the new nation, that resulted in the flight of many Palestinian Arabs.

Time and again throughout Israel's history, it has become engaged in wars with multiple Arab nations simultaneously, countries that are two, three, and even ten times its size. Yet, it wins these wars and in the process gains territory. The laws of war as accepted by humans throughout history, unfair to the residents as they may be, are that if another country takes a piece of your country, or your entire country, it belongs to the victor. There is no responsibility on the part of the winning force to wag its finger and say, "that'll teach you, now I'm going home." That is how territory is gained and lost. To then turn to Israel and say, "hey, it's not fair that we lost, we want to go back to the way the borders were before we got into this mess," is irrational, illogical, and violates the accepted principles of war. Calling cities "occupied-territories" is merely a fancy way of saying "land we lost but want back." War doesn't work like that.

Furthermore, for any American to say that Israel should return such lands, or even divide Jerusalem, it's capital city, in two and give half to the Palestinians is simply absurd hypocrisy. What did the Americans do to the Native Americans? They massacred them. Murdered entire tribes. And when they were done, they said, "here, have this tiny reservation to call your own. Out of the goodness of our hearts, we gift you this land." When Americans start calling on Obama to give the Indians Ohio and at least a portion of Washington, DC, then perhaps I will start respecting their calls for Israel to do the same. Until that time, I say Americans have no right to voice any sort of opinion in the matter.

And, might I add, if the Native Americans decided this was their right, and America denied them, and in response, they began blowing themselves up on American buses and in American restaurants and hotels, would we be so forgiving? Would we say, well, I can understand the suffering that drove them to this extreme? I think the lessons of 9-11 show us that this would not be the case. Israeli civilians live under siege every day. They never know when a suicide bomber will be on their bus or an extremist will open fire on the street. I know people who have survived both, and the scars (both physical and emotional) are lifelong. I also know those who have not. It is easy to sit here in our safe lives where we do not know the fear and the horror of terrorism on a daily basis and pass judgment on those who do. It is harder to walk a day in their shoes and then accept that the answers are not easy to come by.
uncoverer
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 6:32:09 PM
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MichaelG I am aware of the developments that precipitated the formation of Israel.

"Prior to Israel's formation (as decided by the UN in 1948), the land was actually under British control (British Mandate) not Palestinian rule"


But so was India,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Myanmar to name a few.That the land was under British control is no doubt true.However it was only under British Control or to be more exact a British colony.
Firstly it begs the question whether they had any rights to hand over Palestine without a general plebicite.And as you yourself say at that time it consisted of Jews recently arrived from Europe.
Even if we leave the question of whether the British Govt had any legal right to treat a country akin to landscaping their backgarden then the bigger question remains:Why did they withdraw,if according to your rationale,they were under British rule?
If England considered it any thing more than a colony then i fail to see why they would change the map and leave the country in mess to fend for themselves.

Your arguement about Americans and Native Americans is absolutely true and I support your views on that.However what I don't support is your using it as an example to support your views on Israel and Palestine.Sadly,two wrongs does not make a right.
You seem to sympathise with the Native American cause .However in the same vein you refuse to acknowledge the validity of zola_b's arguement.Why this dichotomy?
MiTziGo
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37:33 PM
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No dichotomy. While I sympathize with the Native Americans, I also recognize that the Ohioans who paid good money for their homes and built communities and lives there are not responsible for the wrongs of their ancestors and have no legitimate responsibility to graciously vacate their homes as appeasement to the Native American peoples. Just as we Americans would never entertain the idea of doing so, though we recognize the fact that the land once belonged to another people and was at one time forcibly taken from them, we should not be asking the Israeli people to do so either. While in theory it might be nice to say, let's just give it back to the people that once lived there, it does not work in practice. Period.

Also, while I agree that two wrongs do not make a right, my reason for bringing in the Native American argument was twofold. Firstly, I feel that doing so makes it more relatable for Americans, who see Israelis and Palestinians as pawns easily moved around to make peace without visualizing in concrete terms what that would actually entail. Secondly, America has for some time led the charge when it comes to international pressure on Israel to make concessions. If America is willing to overlook this terrible stain on its own history, then it has no right to comment. The same goes for individual Americans. If there is one person in America who feels it is his duty to find a Native American family and hand over the deed to his own home, then he is welcome to argue that Israelis should do the same. I would venture to guess that not one of you out there would actually do so, though if you look into your heart of hearts, you know it is right. Or is it? Again, I return to the concept of war and conquerors.
uncoverer
Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 5:59:45 AM
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If you had read my posts more carefully and fully ,you would have found out that nowhere do i say that Israel should assimilate with Palestine or Israelis should give their homes to Palestinians.I fuly recognise the impracticality of such a proposal .Sad that you satisfied wyourself with a cursory glance at my post before reacting.

However your position seem to me like "deed's done,too bad nothing can be done".This is what I object to.I fully recognise the fact the change is irreversible.However,to think that the irreversability of the situation should make any talk or discussion on the matter irrelevant is something I woun't understand.
Joseph Glantz
Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 6:42:33 AM
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I agree with Michael G for the most part and would add that a million Jews were "forced" to leave their homelands by the Arab states as a result of the creation of Israel. The Jewish claim to the land of Israel precedes World War II and is just as strong as the Palestinian claim. If there had been an Israel before World War II there wouldn't have been a Holocaust.

The UN resolution was a compromise. Just as Palestinians have claims the Jewish population has claims too. Just as Palestinians have been forced to leave so have the Jews (and I would submit that Jews have been forced to leave in far far greater numbers).

The problem is that there is little precedent for compromise in the Arab world since few if any of the Middle Eastern states are "democracies." If the existence of Israel is in dispute there will never be peace. If the size of Israel is in dispute there can be peace immmediately.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, May 1, 2010 4:59:23 AM
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Please pardon my poor knowledge about this issue, but zorba_lb, can you please brief me on the present condition of the people of Israel-occupied Palestine?
Also, can you please tell me about those factors apart from the fact that Israel occupies it(like possible oppressive treatment of palestinians or the rights they are given etc.) which led to the 'intifada' (1 & 2)?
Thank you.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 4:37:24 PM
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Yes, zorba? Still waiting for your reply...
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