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"Ivan and I" or "Me and Ivan" Options
imm_los
Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2015 6:51:45 AM
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Joined: 1/11/2015
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Location: New Delhi, NCT, India
I've always been told that 'XYZ and I' is correct whereas 'me and XYZ' is not. Disregarding all, recently one of my teachers told me that depending on the usage both are correct. Won't that be breaking the rule or is there some sort leniency for this case? Can anyone explain? PLEASE.

Thanks
Orson Burleigh
Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2015 7:31:35 AM

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There are two questions here. As a matter of courtesy it is usually held that one should refer to another person before oneself, thus either 'XYZ and I' or 'XYZ and me.' 'Me and XYZ' is grammatically correct, but is likely to be perceived to be rudely self-assertive.

The second issue of whether to use 'XYZ and I' or 'XYZ and me' can be resolved by the test of removing 'XYZ and' from the sentence: Wherever I would be appropriate ( I did ..., I took..., I read..., I went to..., I was given... ) use 'XYZ and I.' Where me would be used ( It is me, It was done to me, It was taken from me, It was read to me, It was sent to me, It was given to me, It was assigned to me) use 'XYZ and me.'
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, January 11, 2015 8:36:47 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 35,111
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Orson Burleigh wrote:
There are two questions here. As a matter of courtesy it is usually held that one should refer to another person before oneself, thus either 'XYZ and I' or 'XYZ and me.' 'Me and XYZ' is grammatically correct, but is likely to be perceived to be rudely self-assertive.

The second issue of whether to use 'XYZ and I' or 'XYZ and me' can be resolved by the test of removing 'XYZ and' from the sentence: Wherever I would be appropriate ( I did ..., I took..., I read..., I went to..., I was given... ) use 'XYZ and I.' Where me would be used ( It is me, It was done to me, It was taken from me, It was read to me, It was sent to me, It was given to me, It was assigned to me) use 'XYZ and me.'


Applause Applause
Ani Bacon
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 12:10:26 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 1/3/2015
Posts: 1
Neurons: 6,476
Location: Aurora, Nebraska, United States
imm_los wrote:
I've always been told that 'XYZ and I' is correct whereas 'me and XYZ' is not. Disregarding all, recently one of my teachers told me that depending on the usage both are correct. Won't that be breaking the rule or is there some sort leniency for this case? Can anyone explain? PLEASE.

Thanks


they're both correct when used by the I/me subject vs. predicate rule. though most only use 'me and XYZ' in dialog. honestly, how many people use proper grammar when speaking? Eh?
ellana
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 3:12:53 AM
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Joined: 12/19/2010
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Location: Roquefort, Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur, France
One is a subject pronoun 'I' and the other an object pronoun 'me'. As far as using proper grammar, what's wrong with that? If everyone comes up with their own way of using words and grammar, we will revert to the biblical Tower of Babel. Speaking and writing correctly, and I'm not saying that idioms and local usage in context should be shunned, leads to better communication and less ambiguity. There's beauty in every language.
imm_los
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 5:55:01 AM
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Joined: 1/11/2015
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Neurons: 2,870
Location: New Delhi, NCT, India
Thanks a bunch all! Orson Burleigh, can't believe that is was as easy as that!! :D
Crawdaddy
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:34:05 AM
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Joined: 10/25/2014
Posts: 136
Neurons: 2,057
Ani Bacon wrote:
imm_los wrote:
I've always been told that 'XYZ and I' is correct whereas 'me and XYZ' is not. Disregarding all, recently one of my teachers told me that depending on the usage both are correct. Won't that be breaking the rule or is there some sort leniency for this case? Can anyone explain? PLEASE.

Thanks


they're both correct when used by the I/me subject vs. predicate rule. though most only use 'me and XYZ' in dialog. honestly, how many people use proper grammar when speaking? Eh?


People who want to be taken seriously care about the grammar they use when speaking. Every single occurance of "Me and Joe ..." sounds horribly ignorant, and is not acceptable at any time.
tunaafi
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 8:40:47 AM

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Crawdaddy wrote:
Every single occurance of "Me and Joe ..." sounds horribly ignorant, and is not acceptable at any time.


It may be inappropriate in formal settings, but "Joe and I" would sound affected in certain situations.

Learners need to know that 'Joe and I' is the standard form, but they are likely to hear 'me and Joe'; the people using it consider it perfectly acceptable.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, January 12, 2015 9:09:08 AM
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I think 'me and Joe' is acceptable where both of the following apply:

(a) they are in the objective case; and
(b) 'Joe' is followed by a relative clause, or appositional phrase, referring to him.

For example:

It was a fascinating experience for me and Joe, who was visiting the country for the first time.
They came over and spoke to me and Joe, my trusty friend and colleague.

Note that in the second example above, putting Joe first would cause ambiguity as to whether two or three people are meant.
Briton
Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 10:12:18 PM
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Joined: 10/13/2011
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I disagree that "Joe and I" or similar is only appropriate in formal settings. I am an ordinary person, as are my colleagues and friends, and we all say it quite naturally in everyday life. Where would it sound "affected"?

Yes, to avoid confusion, learners should be made aware that a lot of English they hear spoken by native English speakers will not be 'correct'.
I think, however, that those natives speak as they like (and why shouldn't they?) because they don't care about grammar. They themselves might consider it perfectly acceptable, but to others it can sound uneducated.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 3:08:31 AM

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Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
Briton wrote:
I disagree that "Joe and I" or similar is only appropriate in formal settings. I am an ordinary person, as are my colleagues and friends, and we all say it quite naturally in everyday life. Where would it sound "affected"?


I didn't say it was appropriate only in formal settings. I said 'me and Joe' might be inappropriate in formal settings.

It might sound affected in some socio-economic groups.

Crawdaddy
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:48:51 AM
Rank: Member

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Neurons: 2,057
tunaafi wrote:
Crawdaddy wrote:
Every single occurance of "Me and Joe ..." sounds horribly ignorant, and is not acceptable at any time.


It may be inappropriate in formal settings, but "Joe and I" would sound affected in certain situations.

Learners need to know that 'Joe and I' is the standard form, but they are likely to hear 'me and Joe'; the people using it consider it perfectly acceptable.


It is one thing to understand horrible language; it is quite another to teach them how to use it.

Again, it is never, never, never acceptable to say "Joe and me did something.". Ever.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:42:55 AM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Again, the two different 'errors' show up.

Crawdaddy is right, as far as I know - it is never acceptable to use 'me and Joe' or 'Joe and me' as the subject of a verb. However, you may hear it occasionally.

It is acceptable to some people (local dialectical variations) to use 'me and Joe' as the object of the verb.

As Audiendus says, occasionally it is actually more understandable this way.

The barman spoke to the man who moved into the town a few months ago and is such a great guy that he rapidly became engaged to Susan and me.
The barman spoke to the man and me who moved into the town a few months ago and is such a great guy that he rapidly became engaged to Susan.
The barman spoke to me and the man who moved into the town a few months ago and is such a great guy that he rapidly became engaged to Susan.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone ever even attempt to say "I and Joe are going to the cinema." - it just sounds so wrong that it would be instantly corrected by the nearest six-year-old.
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