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Faith, n.: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Options
Daemon
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:00:00 AM
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Faith, n.: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
redsxz
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:17:32 AM
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Genius!
Carmelo
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 6:56:02 AM
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[
size=6]This definition might be clearer and more comprihensise by John Hardon:

FAITH
The acceptance of the word of another, trusting that one knows what the other is saying and is honest in telling the truth. The basic motive of all faith is the authority (or right to be believed) of someone who is speaking. This authority is an adequate knowledge of what he or she is
[right]talking about, and integrity in not wanting to deceive. It is called divine faith when the one believed is God, and human faith when the persons believed are human beings.[/right][/size]
sacarain
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 7:41:40 AM
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Sometimes, the faith is strong but people need proof!
MarySM
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 8:10:17 AM
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Good quote, but isn't it true that some things have to be believed to be known?
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 8:18:04 AM
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MarySM wrote:
Good quote, but isn't it true that some things have to be believed to be known?


Such as?
MarySM
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 8:23:22 AM
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I was thinking religion/god. Most churches that I am familiar with state that if you don't believe, it will never be known to you.
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:22:30 AM
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MarySM wrote:
I was thinking religion/god. Most churches that I am familiar with state that if you don't believe, it will never be known to you.


So how would it be revealed to you that you might have stumbled upon a false God. Many of the captured and convicted terrorists from AlQaeda seem blissfully content at having been handed death sentences so are seemingly thoroughly converted believers. Don't you think that unquestioned belief might be a dangerous thing?
Hupomone
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:34:27 AM
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Pedro is right. Unquestioned belief is a dangerous thing. Faith [by Carmelo's definition] in people is a dangerous thing, too. "Divine" faith, in my opinion, needs to be carefully approached/handled, because it can be used to manipulate as well as improve lifestyles. A lot of things religious people do resemble superstitious ritual more than anything. But if it leads one to be helpful and caring of others, without judgment, it's a good thing.
pi
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:38:37 AM
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If you have evidence it is not faith, it is a fact.

Two things to consider here.

1. The nature of the world we live in. It is difficult to completely quantify and qualify it or that there will always be parts of it that are beyond our understanding.

2. The nature of intelligence. Is that it abhors an incomplete theory. So every man tries to extrapolate the known and forms a theory to completely encapsulate everything.

So faith means, "I am not sure but I think this is what it is most likely to be, based on my current understanding of facts."

Another Idea is that the world is like a mirror. What we believe in is what it becomes eventually / or that the world is just a projection of what we think.

Somethings you need to see to belive. Some you need to believe to be able to see.
man in black
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 9:45:15 AM
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Faith takes over when reason and logic fail to explain things to us. And we´ll always have unexplained phenomena, therefore faith and beilef are necessary.
Seeker
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:00:14 AM
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Well said pedro & pi

Applause Applause Applause Applause
pedro
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:15:25 AM
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man in black wrote:
Faith takes over when reason and logic fail to explain things to us. And we´ll always have unexplained phenomena, therefore faith and beilef are necessary.


No they're not. Whilst we can say with confidence much about the universe there will always be gaps in our knowledge. Sometimes competing theories can suggest vastly different end scenarios but may not be liable to test with current technology. You might speculate on whether we have an open closed or flat universe, (, or whether consciousness is a holographic or quantum electromagnetic effect or something that may not be subjectable to test but you don't have to believe any of the alternatives. You may playfully pick one alternative (as you might whilst watching a 'whodunnit') but you can wait for more evidence (The large Hadron Collider might provide answers to some of the former questions- dark matter, Higgs Boson, supersymmetry etc. Not sure about consciousness {see it is possible!})
UserName
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:37:48 AM
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If u have to have proof to believe something, then don't have faith.
mdhardcrab
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:42:46 AM
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Faith to me is like being honest. I'm either honest or dishonest there is no inbetween. Faith is my HONEST desire to believe is something- it is the truth to me, to thine ownself to true, I heard that somewhere.
livinlegend2121
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:00:36 AM
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i think faith is holding us back as humanity. faith has many believing a savior will come one day and correct the wrong and reward the righteous. everything mankind has learned says otherwise. no one came and saved the dodo birds, the only savior this world has is mankind. ppl must act in a way that reflects this, faith as we know it today is the downfall of man. its the reason for war,hate,and most evil that is committed today and in our history. faith should be in mankind to evolve without the safety net of god.
Lani
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:08:39 PM
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Make it easy !
N.B. Nothing can make anyone kill people if he isn't a killer.
Carmelo
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 12:32:22 PM
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What is proof? what would convince us? Are we conviced by the majority rule, a great ruler, by a big guy, big governament, by a beutiful woman, by our small brains which are only a fraction of man's existence and lasts but 100 years?

What about the great number of ereyday things that we all believe based on faith, even if we don't call it faith?

Would a number of scientifically prooven miracles make a difference to our faith
?

kaleem
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:10:28 PM
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The faith that stands on authority is not faith" - Emerson
Ellenrita
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:14:49 PM
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Faith, to me is a spiral. Sometimes strong sometimes weak, When lost or weak I recall what I once beleived really believed and in times of troubles where else is there any comfort?
Hupomone
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 2:29:16 PM
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There's nothing wrong with questioning things, or with choosing to believe in unproven theories. It's a personal choice - subject to change - as life deals out her cards. I don't see much point in debating "faith."
tiggr
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 3:38:13 PM
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Is this from The Devil's Dictionary?
will
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:05:08 PM
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Carmelo wrote:
This definition might be clearer and more comprihensise by John Hardon

Ha! That statement is an exemplar of the second and last parts of Bierce's quote, and arguably the first.

Carmelo wrote:
The acceptance of the word of another, trusting ...It is called divine faith when the one believed is God, and human faith when the persons believed are human beings.

Credit where it's due, I'm impressed you draw a distinction. Faith in the human context is indeed mere trust or logical actions based on deductive reasoning. Whereas religious faith is something altogether different: assertion of belief without / or need of proof. Most theists fudge the distinction, many deliberately so.

Might I suggest you concentrate on your basic spelling and punctuation before tackling font.

men in black wrote:
Faith takes over when reason and logic fail to explain things to us. And we´ll always have unexplained phenomena, therefore faith and beilef are necessary.

Although pedro has already explained your mistake, just in case you don't follow... other than belief in god/s can you name one other example where faith is a necessity?

mdhardcrab wrote:
Faith to me is like being honest. I'm either honest or dishonest there is no inbetween. Faith is my HONEST desire to believe is something- it is the truth to me, to thine ownself to true, I heard that somewhere.

Just plain scary.

Hupomone wrote:
There's nothing wrong with questioning things, or with choosing to believe in unproven theories. It's a personal choice - subject to change - as life deals out her cards. I don't see much point in debating "faith.

Assuming you don't mean misplaced trust...

To a point it's personal choice, but invariably that personal choice impinges on the lives of others, be it the general obstruction of knowledge or blowing oneself up on a bus. At any point on the scale I think it vitally important that people are at least required to rationalise, even if they can't or choose not to.

carmelo wrote:
What about the great number of ereyday things that we all believe based on faith, even if we don't call it faith?

Such as? Name one.

tiggr wrote:
Is this from The Devil's Dictionary?

I believe it is, yes.
will
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:09:30 PM
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Sorry, missed this bit.
carmelo wrote:
Would a number of scientifically prooven miracles make a difference to our faith?


What is a scientifically proven miracle? Apart from an oxymoron.
Hupomone
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 4:28:38 PM
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I don't think Carmelo is the same today as in the past. Somebody else is being Carmelo today, I'm almost certain of it.
ChildofTheKing
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 5:25:46 PM
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“Faith is the hope that charity is not vain.”
~ Albert Guerard
Carmelo
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 5:55:08 PM
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WILL,
I could have faith in you if you were not so bitter. What seems to be the problem beside my grammar? (That’s the only thing we can agree on). I know this might upset you, but you asked for a scientifically proven miracle. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the first. That miracle (incredible to you) resulted in over 2.1 Billion believers, give or take a few Million. Of course, we would not want to include Islam, which believes HE was a prophet, for another 1.5 Billion, (give or take a few Million). Whatever you are, can you top that? Personally, I don’t believe numbers proves anything, but when we consider the 3.6 Billions, there must be something about religious Faith. You know what Lincoln said about fooling most of the the people all of the time… Tell us something, WILL, besides yourself, what else do you believe in? Oh, almost forgot, do you believe that the Earth moves around the Sun? I hope not, because there is no scientific proof that it does.
FineUrodeles
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 7:28:35 PM
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Carmelo wrote:
WILL,
Oh, almost forgot, do you believe that the Earth moves around the Sun? I hope not, because there is no scientific proof that it does.

You are not serious are you, Carmelo? Stellar aberration and stellar parallax are but two simple methods that prove that the earth orbits the Sun. If you want to prove it scientifically, then the Doppler effect is more than adequate.

Please tell me that you were just jokingPray
mailady
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 8:55:22 PM
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The Bible defines faith.

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for,though not yet beheld.
ardii
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 10:01:29 PM
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For those who rely only on visible testable reasonable data for belief, just remember the frog in the frog pond. The frog knows all that there is in the pond, but alas the pond is infinitesimally small compared to the continent it is on. Thus the frog knows virtually nothing wrt the continent. We humans know lots of the visible testable reasonable stuff within our limited ken within an infinite universe. And like the frog, we know virtually nothing wrt to the infinite universe.

In "The Marriage of Sense and Soul" by Ken Wilbur, he tries to reconcile science and religion and he talks of the eye of mind (science and reason) and eye of contemplation (spiritual disciplines, getting into realms of awareness untouchable by science and reason). He recognizes the wonders of the scientific revolution and what it has done for the world but he thinks rabid scientists and rationalists have become too arrogant in believing that they alone have the key to everything. He calls it scientism...
ardii
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:04:09 PM
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The rabid scientists and rationalists cannot admit that their knowlege is infinitesimally insignificant in the infinite universe and will require eternities to know it, which in mathematical parlance, you will never get there, but the believer of Christianity admits it and have faith. Of course you ask, "What if you have faith in the wrong thing?" I'd answer, "There you go again."
Carmelo
Posted: Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:15:28 PM
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FineUrodeles wrote:
Carmelo wrote:
WILL,
Oh, almost forgot, do you believe that the Earth moves around the Sun? I hope not, because there is no scientific proof that it does.

You are not serious are you, Carmelo? Stellar aberration and stellar parallax are but two simple methods that prove that the earth orbits the Sun. If you want to prove it scientifically, then the Doppler effect is more than adequate.

Please tell me that you were just jokingPray



They are not proofs, only inderect signs, any astrophysicist knows that. You should not "believe" everything you hear. Einstein said there is no proof -- not I . . .

FineUrodeles
Posted: Thursday, March 4, 2010 3:39:34 AM
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Carmelo wrote:


They are not proofs, only inderect signs, any astrophysicist knows that. You should not "believe" everything you hear. Einstein said there is no proof -- not I . . .



Actually, you did say it. I don't know what "only inderect signs" means, but I have given you methods of attaining direct observable proofs. Would you deny that the Earth's moon orbits our planet?
Ellenrita
Posted: Friday, March 5, 2010 1:58:37 AM
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Did not Einstein say something to the effect that God laughs at our plans?
will
Posted: Saturday, March 6, 2010 7:05:41 PM
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Carmelo wrote:
I could have faith in you if you were not so bitter.

Ad hominem. Carmelo, why are you so angry? j/k

Carmelo wrote:
What seems to be the problem beside my grammar? (That’s the only thing we can agree on).

Generally, no real problem with your grammar, however your attempts to dick around with the font gives me a headache and makes your comments -- already difficult to follow due to their strained logic -- practically incomprehensible. I was simply suggesting that a little care makes all the difference.

Carmelo wrote:
I know this might upset you, but you asked for a scientifically proven miracle.

No. I asked 'What' a scientifically proven miracle is. Sounds to me like a complete misnomer. There are no such things as scientifically proven miracles; if something is scientifically proven it’s no longer a ‘miracle’... if there are even such things as miracles to begin with. If you’re going to change the use of language, you need to explain clearly what you mean.

Carmelo wrote:
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the first.

The first what?.. First (scientifically unproven) miracle? If so, I don't believe in miracles, so you'll need to convince me. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Or do you mean the first ‘scientifically proven miracle’? If so, what scientific proof?

Carmelo wrote:
That miracle (incredible to you) resulted in over 2.1 Billion believers, give or take a few Million. Of course, we would not want to include Islam, which believes HE was a prophet, for another 1.5 Billion, (give or take a few Million).

By that 'logic' we would still, today, be bound to a belief in nature gods, that being the first majority belief at the dawn of human reason. Or Osiris, if you want to define majority belief in terms of civilisation (or any of the Sumerian gods, being earlier, thought not organized).

Besides, you are being disingenuous with your numbers. Has that assumed ‘miracle’ resulted in the same universal belief? Or has the inconsistency with reason resulted in a fractured plethora of mutually exclusive religious beliefs?

Carmelo wrote:
Whatever you are, can you top that?

Well, yes I can. I'm a mortal human being; that we know for sure. That’s 100% of us. Yay! I win.Dancing

Carmelo wrote:
Personally, I don’t believe numbers proves anything, but...

Which is it? Is might right, or is that an invalid argument?

Carmelo wrote:
...when we consider the 3.6 Billions, there must be something about religious Faith.

Yes. It answers a whole bunch of difficult questions and uncertainties without the tedious obligation of explaining reality. I’ve never denied the attraction... but it’s ultimately unfulfilling. And let’s be honest here, you don’t really support the concept of religious faith do you? You don’t (presumably) support the religious faith that drives a man to blow himself up on a bus, or the religious faith that fuels the hate mongering of the westboro baptists (although it seems your biblical literalism is closer to their beliefs than most of the 3.6 billions you cite in your ‘might is right’ argument). What you mean by religious faith is the right to your specific beliefs, without the obligation of explaining reality. For the beliefs of everyone else, you expect a higher standard of proof.

Carmelo wrote:
Tell us something, WILL, besides yourself, what else do you believe in?

Humanity, that the Rolling Stones were better than the Beatles, and everything in between and beyond, that reason allows.

Carmelo wrote:
Oh, almost forgot, do you believe that the Earth moves around the Sun? I hope not, because there is no scientific proof that it does.

Yes there is... but that’s not important is it? After all, all I need is faith that the earth moves around the sun and that makes me right, right?
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