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Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws. Options
Daemon
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:00:00 AM
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Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.

Plato (427 BC-347 BC)
JUSTIN Excellence
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:27:01 AM

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What will be the consequence of living in this lawless manner? Why ... it will not certainly prevent you from being injured, but it will indeed prevent you from being deceived.

My father-in-law has always taught me that to provide for a woman's happiness is as easy as to make new laws!





Milica Boghunovich
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:33:18 AM
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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."

The trouble is morally bad people can create laws to preserve an unjust social system! Why would morally good people obey unjust laws?! Morally clean acts can be seen as transgression against unjust laws. Those who create unjust laws will label good people who break the unjust laws as bad people. Lawyers do say, "Law is not about justice."

Equally, those who "act responsibly" on the surface may be actually acting irresponsibly behind the curtains. For example, an ostensibly "charitable" person can be having an army of drug dealers who are stashing money into his/her pockets. "Responsible!!!" Financially poor intellectuals who are morally clean can be labelled "irresponsible" by the "charitable" person involved in high drug profits or "respectable gentlemen" involved in supporting prostitution - excellently portrayed in "Mrs. Warren's Profession" by George Bernard Shaw.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:34:13 AM

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It seems that Weinberg was building upon Plato's idea:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
moniquester
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 3:14:27 AM

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I'm sure that anarchy is not a good thing. Laws are necessary, whether we like them or not. They keep order in society. Maybe not the order we would like, but order, nonetheless.
Don_Conchiot
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 3:26:17 AM
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Milica Boghunovich wrote:
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."

The trouble is morally bad people can create laws to preserve an unjust social system! Why would morally good people obey unjust laws?! Morally clean acts can be seen as transgression against unjust laws. Those who create unjust laws will label good people who break the unjust laws as bad people. Lawyers do say, "Law is not about justice."

Equally, those who "act responsibly" on the surface may be actually acting irresponsibly behind the curtains. For example, an ostensibly "charitable" person can be having an army of drug dealers who are stashing money into his/her pockets. "Responsible!!!" Financially poor intellectuals who are morally clean can be labelled "irresponsible" by the "charitable" person involved in high drug profits or "respectable gentlemen" involved in supporting prostitution - excellently portrayed in "Mrs. Warren's Profession" by George Bernard Shaw.


Excellet entry Milica. Bullseye!
Don_Conchiot
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 3:29:42 AM
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moniquester wrote:
I'm sure that anarchy is not a good thing. Laws are necessary, whether we like them or not. They keep order in society. Maybe not the order we would like, but order, nonetheless.


Contrary to the popular opinion and definition given by dictionaries, anarchy does not has to spell lawlessness and disorder.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:52:27 AM

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Don_Conchiot wrote:
moniquester wrote:
I'm sure that anarchy is not a good thing. Laws are necessary, whether we like them or not. They keep order in society. Maybe not the order we would like, but order, nonetheless.


Contrary to the popular opinion and definition given by dictionaries, anarchy does not has to spell lawlessness and disorder.


Very true. Noam Chomsky calls himself an anarchist. (He explains the definition in a YouTube video too.)
walirlan
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:07:03 AM

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We can observe how these words are really true.
MechPebbles
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:00:17 AM

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Dividing humanity into good and bad people just seems rather naive to me.
Zippy
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:27:54 AM

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Chevegas wrote:
It seems that Weinberg was building upon Plato's idea:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg


That was the dumbest anti-religion quote i have ever heard.
Mike Lewinski
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:58:51 AM

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When used as an argument against having laws this is probably an example of the Perfect Solution fallacy. A common example of the fallacy is stated in the Wikipedia entry for Nirvana Fallacy (just replace "ad campaigns" with "laws"):


Posit (fallacious)
These anti-drunk driving ad campaigns are not going to work. People are still going to drink and drive no matter what.

Rebuttal
Complete eradication of drunk driving is not the expected outcome. The goal is reduction.

John J. Gerhardt
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 9:37:31 AM
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The words are true but some individuals do not seem to get the big picture.
Bully_rus
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:01:43 AM
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What an interesting play soccer was without any rules/laws.
monamagda
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 10:16:49 AM

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Misattributed, invented or "improved" quotes

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws" is a quote often attributed to Plato. His actual words were: “Laws are made to instruct the good, and in the hope that there may be no need of them; also to control the bad, whose hardness of heart will not be hindered from crime.” [Laws, Book IX]. These have clearly different meanings.

Apparently Ammon Hennacy wrote something closer: "Oh judge! Your damn laws! The good people don't need them, and the bad people don't obey them."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Plato
James Montgomery
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 11:14:36 AM
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"They that have not the law and do these things naturally are a law unto themselves." If we are evil we cannot do those things naturally which it pleased the LORD to regulate when he bade us to keep his "statutes." The good man leaves an inheritance for his childrens children, therefore, "let no man speak evil of your good."
Fredric-frank Myers
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:17:36 PM

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We had someone the other day comment regarding how good Nixon was as a president. I responded stating that he was, among many other things, a "crook". Interestingly this quote from Plato appeared; could there be a higher energy force out there agreeing with me?????
Avialae
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:19:21 PM

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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."

That doesn't really make sense in the real world. People who find a way around the laws stay out of trouble and in fact may be law-abiding. As far as someone who doesn't live responsibly, I have one in mind. The person neither needs to be told how to act, nor would telling her continuously cause a change in her. Savvy people can win, lucky people can win, and the rest is irrelevant.
Trivium_Discipulus
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:06:03 PM
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Daemon wrote:
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.

Plato (427 BC-347 BC)


So laws can be used to constrain good people by the bad people who make the laws...

That's why the Constitution limited government - so they couldn't enforce a debt money system that generates inextinguishable debt that impoverishes an exponentially growing number of citizens.
ithink140
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:17:06 PM
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It depends on the law. For example which side of the road on which to drive. Traffic laws per se.

Good or bad one needs this guidance, and that is just one example.

Perhaps Plato had in mind moral fibre rather than statute law.
DOUGLAS CAMPOS
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:49:57 PM

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Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
Mike Lewinski
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 2:29:51 PM

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monamagda wrote:
Apparently Ammon Hennacy wrote something closer: "Oh judge! Your damn laws! The good people don't need them, and the bad people don't obey them."


That was the first thing I thought of too. The story is related by Utah Phillips in the song Anarchy around the 4:50 mark.
nkelsey
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 2:52:23 PM
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Well quoted!
7Thunders
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 7:03:32 PM

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moniquester wrote:
I'm sure that anarchy is not a good thing. Laws are necessary, whether we like them or not. They keep order in society. Maybe not the order we would like, but order, nonetheless.


Character is a goal; not a gift. Character is not made without suffering.
We all live in an evil society built by the master of evil himself. Man was not made for the Law, the law was made for man. The only thing the does for the man is point out the evil
we're all born in sin, shaped in iniquity, come in this world speaking lies. So there is none good but God
Verbatim
Posted: Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:31:01 PM
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Daemon wrote:
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.

Plato (427 BC-347 BC)


Good laws make good people just like good fences make good neighbors. Good or bad people alike need to be told their limits.
pedro
Posted: Monday, August 11, 2014 7:47:47 AM
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While we're at it, can we scrap taxes too. Good people will donate money to good causes so we don't need them.
Fayme Rose
Posted: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 12:30:01 PM
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There is always a right or wrong deed...
However,good people never contemplate the option to deviate from the right choice...
The right thing to do is the law of the land...
So, they strive to maintain the wise decision to follow the laws...
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:50:19 PM

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Zippy wrote:
Chevegas wrote:
It seems that Weinberg was building upon Plato's idea:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg


That was the dumbest anti-religion quote i have ever heard.


No, "Zippy," it's quite wise if you think about it. That's your problem...it requires thinking.
CheVegas ☁️ ✈ ☁️
Posted: Saturday, October 11, 2014 2:50:34 PM

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Zippy wrote:
Chevegas wrote:
It seems that Weinberg was building upon Plato's idea:

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg


That was the dumbest anti-religion quote i have ever heard.


No, "Zippy," it's quite wise if you think about it. That's your problem...it requires thinking.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:18:01 PM

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People need laws to help them become good in the eyes of society.
Bully_rus
Posted: Saturday, October 11, 2014 4:13:16 PM
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The line which divide good from bad goes through people not around them - like string of pearls.
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