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Gender Politics. Why are women in most societies treated unfairly?? Is there a solution to rectify t Options
StephenLion
Posted: Saturday, June 7, 2014 12:22:07 PM

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I know that this is a generalisation and the question could have gone on at least five other forum topics. I would like us to think about how women are treated within all areas of life.

This is a subject I have been engaged in since my childhood so I am interested from many angles what other people think from all genders, cultures, political backgrounds and religions.


Kalai Selvi
Posted: Saturday, June 7, 2014 12:51:56 PM

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When a girl respects another girl or a woman starts to respect another woman, there will be no biased look toward a girl or a woman. Everywhere a man follows the woman as far as family life is concerned.
TheParser
Posted: Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:02:46 PM
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Hello, Stephen:

"Everybody" agrees that both genders should be treated with respect and courtesy and civility.

But some people believe that this is a man's world, and it always will be.

That is, they believe that so long as there are human beings, both men and women will always look to men for ultimate leadership. It might not be fair, but it seems to be human nature.

Furthermore, although everyone nowadays in the West agrees that all occupations should be open to qualified women, nevertheless, men and women are still different: a man is a man; a woman is a woman.

Women, for example, do expect to be treated in a special way. Even in 2014, most women still expect a man to open the door for her (instead of barging in first); on a date, a woman expects the man to pay for dinner; on the bus, women are delighted when a man offers her his seat. In other words, women still want to be treated like "ladies." And most men still respect a woman who acts like a lady.

Let's not forget that although fathers are important, we all consider our mother as the most important and most beloved individual in our lives. That will never, ever change, for men are men; women are women. Both have a special role in life that can never be basically changed by human law.




jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:06:49 AM

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For thousands of years man has been fighting man. Men did the fighting since they have always been the tallest, strongest and fastest. If you send women into fight, the enemy will send men and the men will win. So men have been more important than women. That has been the nature of war and of mankind. Women were happy to treat their men as special as they were likely to be fighting. Men always got the best seat by the fire, the biggest portion of food, the best jobs and therefore the best education and so on. Their wives, sisters and mothers were willing to play second fiddle to their men because they were likely to be going away to war.

With modern weaponry that is changing fast. Women are becoming as able to kill as the men. They are just as likely to die in battle as men. So why should they still play second fiddle to their male counterparts?
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:45:46 AM

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From my perspective, I think this is a very complicated subject that has many factors influencing it. That said, however, I think there are some generalizations that can be made.

I think women, being somewhat smaller and physically weaker, were dominated by males in early history. Since the males were larger and stronger, they were the hunters, and fighters who both protected and ruled the family members.

This established a patriarchal style society, a pattern which has continued to this day in most groups of humans. There have, of course, been some tribes who were matriarchal, but these were fewer in number than the patriarchal.

From families to tribes, to nations, this pattern was established in the cultural aspects as well. From politics, to religion, to property ownership, and all other aspects, males have historically ruled and decided what and how things were done.

A confusing dichotomy developed alongside this, however, in relation to sexual desire and roles. Males desired women, and resented restrictions concerning them at the same time, establishing behavior patterns that both pleased and frustrated them.

This was a result of the biological drives that motivated men to want to engage every woman he found desirable, but who was restricted by his own, and cultural limitations. He wanted the wife, mother, daughter, and sister of others, but didn't want anyone having his. This is still evident today.

It has only been in the last two hundred years or so that humanity has moved from an agrarian lifestyle through the Industrial Revolution and now into the Technological Revolution. Our social evolution is lagging behind, but slowly, inexorably catching up. It will likely take a little more time, but it is very probable that eventually the sexes will become increasingly equal in all areas of society.

I like to think so anyway. Much will depend on how tightly those of less developed acuity hold onto their traditional superstitions while in possession of nuclear weapons.
dusty
Posted: Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:23:02 PM

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it comes down to not voluntarily respecting other peoples rights, esp when it comes to freedoms and liberties that a person voluntarily chooses to exercise yet fails to comply with the necessary respect of those same rights for others who desire to exercise them.

People who exercise rights and fail to do so responsibly, seem to start walking on a path that leads to the rapist mentality

which is essentially the same thing as exercising freedoms and liberties irresponsibly, only instead of violating another person's rights, the rapist specifically violates the victim's sovereign rights of their personal private spaces, usually in the realms of spirituality and sexuality

A rapist is a person whom does not voluntarily respect the spaces that belong to the victim, which most often are spaces of that person's body.

Men and many of our societies have a belief system which is flawed, it's one wherein people justify physical power as giving them the right.

The physical power to do something never automatically gives a person the right to do something. In order for our society to treat females fairly and justly, that mandatory respect must be voluntary

as having a righteous person overpower a rapist is only a temporary fix,

one that will only work so long as the rapist is overpowered

the permanent solution is for everyone to voluntary respect the rights of others
tunaafi
Posted: Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:39:54 PM

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TheParser wrote:
Women, for example, do expect to be treated in a special way. Even in 2014, most women still expect a man to open the door for her (instead of barging in first); on a date, a woman expects the man to pay for dinner; on the bus, women are delighted when a man offers her his seat. In other words, women still want to be treated like "ladies." And most men still respect a woman who acts like a lady.


Most women I know do not expect these things. They expect to be treated simply with the respect one reasonable human being shows to another.
Tovarish
Posted: Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:46:04 PM
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The man going out to work and the woman staying at home doing house work and the majority of the child raising has as most things do,

been superceded with generational growth.

It has been said above, there are roles for women and roles for men, with men being the dominant person and the bread winner,

that does not go as far as describing the work place or with education of woman.

In the work place equal rank and pay means equality between the sexes, if you can take the example of two nurses in a hospital, one man and one woman.

For the male nurse to assume he is superior and not the one to do messy jobs, that would be woman's work, I dont know

how female nurses operate in other countries but I do know an Aussie female nurse will not tolerate this sexist descrimination.

Another example is say in a bank, if the manager is female and has male employees on staff, the men have inferior status than that woman.

Neither of these examples has an advantage to be male.

So to live in a time warp where men are superior because they have external plumbing does not work, the brain is an organ superior to brute force.

Long live the education of women.





TheParser
Posted: Monday, June 9, 2014 5:30:08 PM
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tunaafi wrote:


Most women I know do not expect these things. They expect to be treated simply with the respect one reasonable human being shows to another.



Hello, Tunaafi:

Thank you for your comments.

I am always delighted to reply to any member who is rational and courteous.

I am happy to hear about your experiences.

With all due respect (I am not being ironic), I most vigorously believe that most women do expect to be treated specially, and that they deserve such special treatment if they act like ladies.

As Shakespeare said, the world is a stage and we are all players.

In my opinion, a woman's role on this stage is to be a lady in the way she dresses, speaks, and acts.

I believe everyone -- male and female -- respects and admires a genuine lady.





Romany
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:20:49 AM
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Can we just go back to the historical side for a moment?

Yes, in many of the earlier civilizations men would fight and women would weep. However, there were also many cultures in which the women did fight - most notably the Celts - from whom many English speaking people descend. Remember that even Julius Caesar admitted that he was more afraid of Celtic women in battle than of any other opponents.

Much closer to our times; there were a few hundred women who fought in both the American Civil War and the War of Independence. Throughout history women from all cultures have been pirate captains (the most fearsome of all pirates in the China Seas in the last century was a woman), ships doctors, soldiers, sailors, archers etc.

In fact, I even wonder about the 'men were the hunters and women the gatherers' theory: how do we know that? Cave paintings? They were all stick figures and non-gendered. World history was written by male scholars and of course they assumed that, but what factual evidence backs it up?

As to women 'expecting' special treatment. I should imagine that many old women, who were brought up in the '50s or earlier, might still do so. However, it is certainly not a trope in 2014, and, in fact, I have never met any female who thinks the world owes her just because she can suckle children.

As for giving up a seat in a bus, opening doors, etc. That's what we call responsibility. If we see someone with their arms full we'll hasten to open a door; if someone looks poorly or exhausted, we give them our seat. Gender doesn't come into it.

As to what makes a 'Lady' or a 'Gentleman'? We always had it drummed into us that it was respect for others, a sense of morality and care for those less fortunate than us. Certainly not wealth, power or gender.

I've known men who leap about opening car doors, bringing flowers, etc. and then go for a grope in the taxi. THAT's not a gentleman.

Dignity and respect come from inside - not from outward show. And dignity and respect takes no notice of gender, culture, age or race.
TheParser
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 8:56:15 AM
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Have any of you seen that American comedy series "The Golden Girls" about four single women living together?

One character was Blanche, a slut.

One night she returned home from a date and tried to get the man to spend the night with her.

He refused.

He said that he did not think it was right to indulge in such activities on the first date. So he left.

The next day, Blanche's roommates asked her how she felt about being turned down like that.

Blanche smiled and gently said, "Like a L - A - D - Y."

Romany
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:36:23 AM
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Exactly!!!

As I remember that series was made in the 80's and the women in it were all pushing 70. Hardly a guideline for gender politics today, do you think? Most of the students on this forum weren't even born then.
TheParser
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 12:01:42 PM
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1776.

1926.

1960.

2014.


A lady is a lady.

And a lady will be a lady until the end of time.

The activists have brainwashed people into thinking that men and women are the same -- except for the plumbing.

Malarkey!

Men and women are also mentally different. And we should be grateful for that fact.

Forcing women to think that they are the same as men , according to many experts, negatively impacts women. The stress, it is said, is causing women to have certain health problems that they have never experienced before.

And so-called "modern ideas" are forcing some women to be ashamed if they want to stay home and be good mothers and housewives.

Of course, the condition of women in many developing countries is deplorable.

But here in the West, we have gone to the other extreme.









tunaafi
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:32:36 PM

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TheParser wrote:
[quote=tunaafi]
With all due respect (I am not being ironic), I most vigorously believe that most women do expect to be treated specially, and that they deserve such special treatment if they act like ladies.


Well, most of the women I know do not expect special treatment. They consider the idea patronising.
StephenLion
Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:45:46 PM

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Thank you everyone for your thought provoking insights into what is a very complex issue.
I will be posting my observations in the next couple of days.

What spurred me to post was the brutal gang rape and hanging of two 12 and 14 year old cousins. Also the human trafficking of young women from all over the world, many who are sold into sexual slavery and are used and brutalised by many western men.

One point has stood out which a few people have mentioned that is 'respect'. My observation is this we should respect all people whatever their gender, culture, race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, looks, conduct or dress. We should (however we are feeling) lift our heads and smile with our eyes and lips. You will never know what joy you could be bringing into a strangers world.

I am a disabled wheelchair user, I weigh 15 stone and am six foot, (obviously not sat in my chair Whistle ) yet people still walk straight into me. So now instead of getting angry I smile sweetly, look them straight in the eye and say with a smile (no sarcasm) in the tone of my voice. "O I am very sorry I tend not to see able bodied people".
Most people laugh and respond in a positive way. My hope is that they will be a little my observant to all who 'share their world.

I leave you for the moment with this one last thought.

Think It is said "men are from Mars and women are from Venus". Think[
I cannot understand what a chocolate bar and a ladies razor have to do with the differences between the genders......... Whistle
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:32:34 AM
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tunaafi wrote:


Well, most of the women I know do not expect special treatment. They consider the idea patronising.



Hi, Tunaafi:

Maybe our misunderstanding lies in the words "special treatment."

Perhaps your lady friends do not expect the following, but I do believe that MOST women do (whether they admit it or not):

1. Men let women enter buses, elevators, etc. first.
2. On a sinking ship, women are saved first.
3. Men refrain from using vulgar language in front of women.
4. A man on a date pays for the dinner.
5. On a bus, a man gives his seat to a woman.
6. When a woman approaches a seated man, a gentleman immediately stands up.

etc.
StephenLion
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:10:31 AM

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Hello Parser, I am not sure what social circles you spend your time in or which country you live in however it is different here in the UK. You wrote to Tunaafi, "3. Men refrain from using vulgar language in front of women." I myself seldom swear in front of a woman, man or errant hammer. I have mixed with people from all social strata here in the UK and have found that women do match men on the swearing front, many using both the c and f words frequently and not just in female company but mixed.

I also found the following slightly amusing (no disrespect to your good self) "4. A man on a date pays for the dinner." Most women in the UK in the early stages of dating will 'go Dutch' so that the man cannot assume that because he has paid for dinner she will not have to give him herself for desert Not talking .
Women are mistreated and undervalued whether or not they are ladies or act in a lady like manner. They are systematically treated like 'the little woman' or as sex objects to be leered at in magazines and newspapers and woe betide any woman in public life who has a hair out of place. Even our own PM is publicly condescending to women politicians which ever party they are in.

I agree that most women would like all of the things to happen that you listed, not because they are women but out of respect. I were possible will hold a door open or let a person go before me irrespective of gender. Being in a wheelchair I know what it feels like to be ignored or pushed out of the way and be 'objectified'. What we all need to do is always look out for the needs of others before our own. Maybe then 12 & 14 year old girls anywhere would not be gang raped and brutally murdered and the female worker would not get her bottom or breasts groped, either going to work on crowded public transport or in the workplace.

Men need to change, because on the whole our attitude to women really does smell.........
Just a thought Think .
TheParser
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 10:24:55 AM
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StephenLion wrote:
[1] I am not sure what social circles you spend your time in or which country you live in.
[2] Women are mistreated and undervalued whether or not they are ladies or act in a lady like manner.



[3]Men need to change, because on the whole our attitude to women really does smell.........



Hi, Stephen:

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

[1] I am an old man of 77 years. I have lived my whole life here in California. I am one of the few moderate members on these discussion forums (neither right- nor leftwing).

[2] I respectfully disagree with your statement that women are being widely "mistreated."

a. Here in the United States, most women are not mistreated.



(i) Women will often get top jobs over more qualified men. (Large companies must prove to the government that their workforce is diverse.)

(ii) Women are treated more leniently by the courts (especially if they are beautiful). Right now, many people are chuckling over the "large" number of female teachers who have been taking advantage of their teenaged male students. People are saying things like "The lucky kid!"

(iii) Many men can tell you horror stories about how women are favored in divorce cases. And how women tell lies in divorce court.

[3] I think that women, too, have to change.

a. At the present time, "everybody" is talking about the universities. It seems that many female students are drinking like fish and then engaging in promiscuous conduct. The next morning, they feel ashamed and blame everything on the big mean man. I have just read an article in my local newspaper (the Los Angeles Times) that some male students are tired of this, and they are trying to take legal action.

*****

The bottom line (as Americans like to say) is this:

If more women would act like ladies (dress modestly, speak carefully, choose their friends with great caution, etc.), there would be fewer problems between both genders.

Of course, men are coarse (look at the all the wars in the world, the disgusting behavior of fans at athletic events, the bullying of gay people, etc.), but MOST men do not mistreat women in the West (at least). Sometimes it is the other way round.

The media are (proudly) dominated by leftwing journalists. They often exaggerate events. They have an agenda that they wish to spread.

I know nothing about your nice country, but here in the States women are doing just dandy. (In fact, everyone expects the next president to be a woman. Why? Because she is the best qualified? NO! Because the media and political activists have decided that "it's time for the first woman president.")



Have a nice day.



James




Elorac
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 10:41:11 AM
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'genderalsations' are generalisations with power.

Off to 'Karate lessons' to get the ironing done as I've run out of Y-fronts and String-vests to wear:-)

'In all things good.....there will be some things bad'
Romany
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 11:32:43 AM
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Parsar -

You haven't lived your life as a woman, nor studied gender issues, and nor do you get your ideas from anything other than mainstream press.

To suggest that most Western women are just hunky dory and that in America most men don't mistreat women, is to speak from a position of complete ignorance of these matters.

I, like you, proffer these ideas in 'respectful disagreement'.

I have suggested before that to get a more complete idea of modern society - whether it be in America, in India or any other place in the planet - doing volunteer work at any of the many places that are crying out for it, would soon allow people to make up their own minds, instead of ingesting the prejudices of media reps.

Having spent years and years of my life travelling around and gathering women's stories, working in Mental Health and suicide groups, as well as at rape or crisis centres, my feelings on this particular matter run very deep. My own life story and those of my women friends, were the catalyst to all this activity.

Therefore I respectfully disagree with your statement that women aren't being widely "mistreated." Or that 'token' women only get jobs and university degrees because of their gender." As for "Many men can tell you horror stories about how women are favored in divorce cases. And how women tell lies in divorce court."? Well many women (including myself) can tell you horror stories about men, in the same situation, being favoured and telling lies (and threatening them or their children). So that proves nothing at all: - the two cancel each other out and the only possible conclusion is that PEOPLE should behave better in these situation. Putting gender bias on such things is an exercise in futility.

I would also respectfully suggest that however much knowledge you might have in other fields this is one about which, it is painfully obvious, you know very little. If, perhaps, you think I am one of those 'lying women' you referred to above, why not ask another man, who is around your age and who has spent - and, with his wife, continues to spend - a lifetime dedicating himself to helping others? We have one on the forum, y'know. I think if you were to ask Ray in Australia about the above statements you made based purely on hearsay, that you would get a very different set of ideas.
tunaafi
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 2:29:03 PM

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TheParser wrote:
If more women would act like ladies (dress modestly, speak carefully, choose their friends with great caution, etc.), there would be fewer problems between both genders.


So if women do not behave in the way you think ladies should behave, anything that happens to them is their fault?

What's your idea of modest dress - everything covered except the eyes?

If not, perhaps you'd define precisely what you understand by modest dress - if only to make sure that women in California can dress so that they are safe when they see 77-year-old men in the vicinity.
StephenLion
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:13:25 PM

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Dear James, for once I agree with Tunaafi Applause , most rapes not carried out by people known to the (I hate this word) victim or violated woman. They tend to happen to women who are modestly dressed, some have been nurses in uniform going out to or coming back from work. So that sort of blows that point of yours right out of the swimming pool.
One further point the 12 and 14 year old girls in India who were brutally gang raped and murdered by being hung from a tree, were dressed modestly in traditional Indian clothing. So what was their crime??? O yes as a senior government official stated "boys were just being boys".

However a woman is dressed she is not saying to any passing male "take me I'm yours". If a woman spurns any sexual advances then the man must exercise self control and back off.

I am 58 and have since the late 80 & 90's seen a decline in respect to women. It may be different in America, as your left wing is the Democrats (which are more like our centre ground Conservatives and your right wing is the Republican party, which is more our right wing Conservatives) Myself I am a life long Liberal Democrat and believe in equality for all regardless of gender, race, culture, religion or sexuality and an equal playing field regardless of social standing.
Women are getting some top jobs here in the UK but they are far from the norm. There are also very few women in Government posts and as senior civil servants, captains of industry, senior police officers or senior military personnel at or above the rank of general.
What is more there are now "scientific" studies allegedly showing that because of a woman's period and PMT this makes them unsuitable for certain types of work. That in theory makes a woman potentially disabled because of menstruation. Is female @road rage due to PMT?? So what is male road rage due to, O yes stress because of their partners/daughter/female bosses PMT, or I have missed the point and I'm just being silly????

Back to your points "(i) Women will often get top jobs over more qualified men. (Large companies must prove to the government that their workforce is diverse.)
That may be the case for middle and high earners in the USA it is certainly not the case in the UK and I am sure most of the low paid jobs in the USA are taken up by women or immigrant workers as is the case in the UK, (however as the pithy Elorac pointed out this may be an over genderalsations) because a lot of men will not take up those jobs.

" (ii) Women are treated more leniently by the courts (especially if they are beautiful). Right now, many people are chuckling over the "large" number of female teachers who have been taking advantage of their teen-aged male students. People are saying things like "The lucky kid!""
What happens (I hate this phrase) to ugly women, do they face the electric chair, and the "the beautiful women" a beauticians chair??? Forgive me I tend to have random outbursts of sarcasm. As for the teenage boy and the woman teacher. This has been happening far too regularly with female student and male teachers. The former only hits the national press because it is an older woman & a young adolescent. I would point out that statistically the latter happens more often. In both cases it is an abuse of power & both sexes need to exercise restraint and self control and not put themselves in positions were their integrity and the students well being could be harmed.

(iii) Many men can tell you horror stories about how women are favoured in divorce cases. And how women tell lies in divorce court.
As Romany has dealt with this point with more authority and understanding than I could I will only point out one fact. The only people who really suffer because of divorce are the children........

With respect I do not think that the media is dominated by left wing journalists, either side of the Atlantic. Take Fox news and any Murdock owned media outlet. Certainly in the UK the media (with the exception of the BBC) has a right wing Conservative bias.
As for Hilary Clinton, I think she has proved that she is a good politician and stateswoman, whether you agree with her politics or not. She is certainly has more testicles than some male counter parts. Sorry for the pun.

One final point. You wrote "a. Here in the United States, most women are not mistreated." My two niece's in South Africa, spent between them three years in the USA being nannies to high income earners where the women worked and was also expected by their highly educated 'enlightened' husbands to take care of the household. This was in California.
I am also sure that the position is much worse for those on low incomes and living in substandard housing. I know that this is the case here in the UK.

I used to think that disabled and elderly people were treated with dignity and respect till I started visiting sheltered housing and care homes for the elderly and also when I became a wheelchair user I was quickly disabused of my wrong thinking.
I am sure that you and men in your acquaintance treat women with dignity and respect, but sadly that is not the norm in our society anywhere in this male dominated world.

Thank you James for your contribution to this debate, you did raise some very interesting if controversial views.


Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:54:44 PM
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I was once corrected for calling females on a voluntary committee, 'ladies', I was to call them women, for 'ladies' didnt work.

I can see from the above posts that there is not only gender bias but generational bias towards women, and that there is still in some minds

that women have their place, or 'your acting above your station my dear'.

You cant put Genie back in the bottle, once women worked very hard in the Womens Land Army in Australia during WWII and competently too.

When the men came home from war they expected the little woman to go back to the kitchen, don the apron and be permanently pregnant.

It has been my pleasure to know these women who did not play their pre-ordained role in life.
TheParser
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 6:00:40 AM
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StephenLion wrote:
[1] Certainly in the UK the media (with the exception of the BBC) has a right wing Conservative bias. [2]this male dominated world.







Hello, Stephen:

Thank you for your very thoughtful and courteous comments.

[1] As soon as you mentioned the media, you got my attention, for I fancy myself a journalist manque. I know very little about the British media, but they say that the Daily Mail is reviled because it has the courage to tell the brutal truth about the changes in England. (Excuse me for not saying the "United Kingdom," but "England" has such a nice ring. And if Scotland leaves, well ...) I have just read that your government is thinking about teaching "British values" in the schools. Evidently, some of the newly arrived individuals come from cultures that have very unBritish values. We all know that in certain cultures, the treatment of women is deplorable. I imagine that some British people are saying: It's about time to teach them British values! (Here in the States, such a class would never be taught. It would be considered an insult to the newly arrived, and nothing can be said that might hurt their tender feelings.)

[2] I know that you disagree, and that's fine. This is, after all, a FORUM -- a place for the EXCHANGE of DIFFERENT views. But I really believe:

a. This SHOULD be a male-dominated world. What is wrong with that? That term does not mean that men should rule unfairly. Of course, men should be very chivalrous toward women. And women should have equal opportunities whenever possible.

b. But men and women ARE different. And they will always be different until the end of time. Men are meant to be the leaders. In case of an emergency, most people -- including women -- just naturally look to a man to take charge. That is no disrespect to women.

c. Women are SUPER important. They are our mothers and wives. A nation depends on them. That is their #1 role. OF COURSE, they should be treated with honor and respect. The most beautiful word in the English language (and in other languages?) is " (good) mother." Many people feel that there are so many problems here in the West because the family is falling apart. Good fathers and good mothers make a good society.

[3] I am not very intelligent, but I know that I am out of step with current thinking. But I firmly believe that sooner or later, society will return to a more balanced view regarding gender equality.

a. If people want to say, "Everybody should bring THEIR book" instead of "Everybody should bring HIS book," that's OK (I guess).
b. At least, we still spell it "HIStory." Believe it or not, some American feminists in the 1960's wanted to ban that word!
c. Eventually, the truth will out: society will accept what is a man's true role, and what is a woman's true role.
d. And our common hope: There will no more mistreatment of either men or women.

Have a great day!



James
Feeble Dragonfly
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 8:05:57 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/2011
Posts: 136
Neurons: 400
Having seen a number of controversial posts and discussions involving theArse (excuse me for not saying "theParser", but "theArse" has such a nice ring (pun unintended)), and knowing that he contrives all arguments to infuriate others, I wouldn't waste my time stepping into the fray to dispute any of his ideas about women.

However, his ignorance on the UK (because even if Scotland become independent, there will remain more countries than just England), his lack of understanding about what he actually reads (who are these new-arrivals he thinks are promoting extremism? British people are challenging state education policies with religious extremist views. Some of them may have ancestors who were immigrants to the UK from British colonies.) and his wilful refusal to entertain what this thread is actually about, i.e. men's misplaced sense of entitlement and superiority to women, all speak volumes about how much reliability can be placed on the bile he continues to spew.
Ray41
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 8:15:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 1,937
Neurons: 45,980
Location: Orange, New South Wales, Australia
Romany wrote:
I would also respectfully suggest that however much knowledge you might have in other fields this is one about which, it is painfully obvious, you know very little. If, perhaps, you think I am one of those 'lying women' you referred to above, why not ask another man, who is around your age and who has spent - and, with his wife, continues to spend - a lifetime dedicating himself to helping others? We have one on the forum, y'know. I think if you were to ask Ray in Australia about the above statements you made based purely on hearsay, that you would get a very different set of ideas.

Yes Romany, I fully endorse all of your comments.

To The Parser,I also proffer this post in 'respectful disagreement'.

I do not respond much to your posts as I believe that one should state outright what they are articulating. The continuing 'some people', 'it is said', etc. is written by someone without conviction.
I will make no further comment on The Parsers chauvinistic posts here as they are so out of touch with reality that there is no reasoned information on which to debate.

And, I am of your era James, only a couple of years younger, but my wife and I have to embrace the reality of this current era in order to do the work that we do.


PS: Your post StephenLion in addressing the relevant points was nothing short of excellence, well written.Applause Applause Applause Applause
StephenLion
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 10:49:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/2014
Posts: 126
Neurons: 54,301
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
Hello James, thank you for your answer and the points you put across, even though I myself disagree with your reasoning and the views you hold, I will defend your right to hold them. Your insistence of turning Britain or the UK into England, that is what our government in Westminster have tried to do, forgetting Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Even if the Scottish people vote to be independent that will still leave Wales, NI and England. Though myself I believe NI should be reunited with the Republic of Ireland (Eire if you prefer).
Though I was born and still live in England I count myself as British or a citizen of the UK (Ukish). "England" "may have a nice ring to it" but that is like me calling America "Washington State".
However I digress.

Point (1) is really for another post as it clouds the issue I wanted to discuss, which is why women throughout the world are unfairly treated.

"a. This SHOULD be a male-dominated world. What is wrong with that? That term does not mean that men should rule unfairly. Of course, men should be very chivalrous toward women. And women should have equal opportunities whenever possible."
James I ask you why this "SHOULD" be a male dominated world. Maybe you are right. We should be made to put the sorry mess we men have made of God's earth then give women equal power to steward it..........
Men in the main cannot rule fairly, it has never been done and never will be done, sadly it is not in our nature to be fair but to dominate. As for "chivalrous" that word should be left in historical fiction. All people should be gracious to one another irrespective of gender, race, creed etc.. We should all try to consider the needs of others before our own.
What are men afraid of?? That women would do a better job.........

"b. At least, we still spell it "HIStory." Believe it or not, some American feminists in the 1960's wanted to ban that word!"
Personally when I think of history I think it is HIS (as in God) story....... Again going off topic. I used to be a Pastor so I can waffle on.........

"c. Eventually, the truth will out: society will accept what is a man's true role, and what is a woman's true role.
d. And our common hope: There will no more mistreatment of either men or women."
The truth is women and men are or should be equal partners on this planet we have been given to live on. However until men's attitudes towards women and power change things will remain the same sadly.

James the one point you have failed to address is the violence against women, perpetrated by men both in the home, community and within war today. Rape of women being used as a weapon and the recent brutal gang rape of two young girls in India and the government spokesman stating that "in some cercumstances rape is acceptable" and "boys will be boys". These 12 and 14 year old girls were not dressed provocatively or acting in a provocative manner. Also women the world over are sold into sexual slavery and domestic slavery, some end up 'living in the UK, USA and other western countries. I would (even if others might not) be interested on your opinion.

Make your day a memorable one.........
SL
TheParser
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 12:36:55 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,668
Neurons: 22,062
StephenLion wrote:
[1] Even though I myself disagree with your reasoning and the views you hold, I will defend your right to hold them.
[2] What are men afraid of?? That women would do a better job.........

[3] I used to be a Pastor.


[4] The truth is women and men are or should be equal partners.

[5] Women the world over are sold into sexual slavery and domestic slavery. [6] Interested on your opinion.



Hello, Stephen:

[3] How interesting that you used to be a pastor. No wonder you are so patient and courteous. Being 77 years old, I am used to being respectful of the clergy. (How sad that many nuns no longer wear habits. How are we to know that they are nuns?) So I am rather embarrassed in addressing you simply as "Stephen."

[1] [6] Thank you for your genuinely liberal attitude.

a. You are a newbie. You are not aware of my history here.
b. I started participating in these subforums last year. The veterans here were aghast that anyone could possibly not share their views on everything. I was called everything, especially a "troll." One woman even became a registered member just so that she could threaten me with death over my views! I have been told to shut up, that I am senile, an arse, etc.
c. As you can see from some of the rude posts in this thread, my views seem to incense people who cannot understand how anyone could possibly disagree with their views.

[2] No, men are not afraid that women can do a better job. In some cases, it is obvious that they cannot do a better job or even an equally good one. Look at the recent example of an African country's president. She lost her reelection bid. Instead of graciously handing over the government to her successor, she pouted and was a bad sport. Here in the United States, some women have been given positions in corporations, but they have not done any better than their male counterparts. It is true, of course, that men do not want added competition for jobs, so it is important to make sure that QUALIFIED women be given a chance to fill important posts.

[4} I respectfully disagree. I do not believe that it is possible for men and women to be "equal." They are NOT equal. For example, one very broadminded expert on the army was asked whether women should be allowed in combat. He was very careful in his answer. He said that he was not sure that such a move would be a good idea. In case of a bloody battle, it would be only "natural" for soldiers to attend first to any female casualties. Men simply have an innate respect and concern for women. It is absurd to try to erase this basic feeling by brainwashing boys into thinking that girls and boys are the same.

[5] "There are three types of lies: lies, d-mned lies, and statistics."

a. Statistics are often wrong -- by accident or on purpose.

b. A few years ago, there were dire warnings that thousands of women were coming to a big (American) football game to service the fans. Everyone was crying and wailing and screaming at such inhumanity. It was later admitted that only a few dozen had ever planned to show up, and even they did not show up because of all the publicity.

c. The horrific incidents in India have been a godsend for radical feminist activists. They used a horrible incident to fool people into thinking that there is also a huge amount of mistreatment in the West. It is simply not true.

i. Of course, I do not know about England, but here in the United States, there are not thousands and thousands of women being sold "into slavery." That is absurd.

d. Why do activists spread these exaggerated tales? Well, a few activists hate men. The majority, however, have found a purpose in life. They realize that financial support will be lacking unless they can scare people into believing their claims.

e. Finally, I have a suggestion (and I am NOT being sarcastic). If the situation in England is as bad as you say it is, the best thing to do is to join those organizations that are trying to stop massive immigration, especially from those areas where women -- and other groups, such as gays -- ARE maltreated. Then maybe the rate of mistreatment would go down. I know that this is the proverbial elephant in the room. No one wants to discuss it. There IS, indeed, some increase in such activities in Europe. Why? Because many of those men responsible for such reprehensible acts are people from non-European countries where such activities are common. I believe that Ms. Brigette Bardot, the famous French actress, said that prostitution was a genteel field -- until it was taken over by outsiders who did not believe in French values.

(i) My favorite publication is your very erudite LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS. I have just read that after World War II, English bus drivers demanded a raise in pay. One prime minister said no. He had a brilliant idea: invite men from the Carribean islands to come to England and drive the buses. Years later, when being criticized for this move, he innocently said something like: I did not think that they would stay!


Pardon this long post. Since you took so much time and effort in your post, I wanted to reciprocate.


James
ithink140
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 1:19:44 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
Yes of course men and women are different and these differences should be celebrated. But where men and women come together, and there is no question of this, is that as people they are equal. Their life is of equal value. Both sexes have the right to respect and due regard.

The battle’ of the sexes is about the most boring subject I can think of. I can’t stand chauvinists, whether they are men or women. I abhor misogynists and misandrists. I can’t stand strident women libbers but I understand that there is a need to fight the female corner due to bad behaviour of men. If I hear a strident women’s libber I switch off, but if a woman argues her case with reason I am all ears. I also cannot stand men who creep up to women’s lib and to women as if they are gods, almost like a Dickens character rubbing their hands together in an obsequious manner… I find such men creepy. We have a them here on this very forum who cry: ‘Chauvinism’ directed at men posters.

Men are far from perfect and the same applies to women who like men are not above criticism. Because one criticises a man it does not make them a misandrist… likewise if a man criticises a women is not by default a misogynist.

I hold doors open for both men and women.
Ray41
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2014 7:43:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 1,937
Neurons: 45,980
Location: Orange, New South Wales, Australia
ithink140 wrote;

I also cannot stand men who creep up to women’s lib and to women as if they are gods, almost like a Dickens character rubbing their hands together in an obsequious manner… I find such men creepy. We have a them here on this very forum who cry: ‘Chauvinism’ directed at men posters.

Seeing that the only recent mentioning of the word 'chauvinistic' was by me, then, I would assume, that you are finding me creepy.Whistle
If so, then I find your logic seriously flawed and your comments beneath your obvious intelligence.
I treat women as equals, just the same as I treat men as equals, until, either of the two sexes show their true character which, as individuals, may be greater/lesser than mine.
I am proud of who I am and kowtow to no one, and, I only stand up those who require genuine support, whether it be male or female.
All men are born of women, so, why should we not treat those who are true matriarchs in the manner they deserve, even to the extent of treating them as superior, although not quite to the level of gods as, no human has the right to assume that honour.
Many animals have as their leader, a matriarch, who passes on the accumulated knowledge to ensure the survival of the herd while, off season, the male struts around all by himself, caring only for himself until breeding time comes around and then he reappears to sow his seed, and, buggers off, leaving all his responsibilities to the females.
Think In many cases, man has not improved much!!

Your opening comment;

Yes of course men and women are different and these differences should be celebrated. But where men and women come together, and there is no question of this, is that as people they are equal. Their life is of equal value. Both sexes have the right to respect and due regard.

With that statement, I can only agree.

Brick wall [color=indigo]It appears that the print colour has a problem and is defaulting.
ithink140
Posted: Friday, June 13, 2014 6:06:10 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
I take your point Ray and accept that you treat both sexes as you find them.

Yes, Ray, but we are not animals and every child… of whatever sex… also owes its life to a man, and every child deserves two parents and each parent has a unique role. A man is not merely a passer on of sperm, is he? Yes, not all men are good fathers, but equally true not all women are good mothers. Parenthood, for the sake of the child is a dual role with neither one parent more important than the other. To arbitrarily deny a parent their part in rearing a child is cruel to both the parent and the child… too much of that goes on. The breakdown of family life is one of the saddest features of our modern day… particularly in the western world, and it is unfair to place the load on the shoulders of men alone. Women too have played their part in family breakdown… it is a malaise of the human family, not of one part of it… and is responsible for many of societies woes. Family is the building block of humanity is it not, and that includes both parents.

It is often said that children are resilient by those who want to show sympathy, or who want avoid facing up to the effects of theirs, or others, actions on a child. They look at the outward and forget that which they cannot see; that which is going on in the inside.
But this is far from the truth, for the apparent resilience hides deeper things… changes to personalities and emotions, which surface later in life. It holds true that for every action there is a reaction, however late that may be. It is no less true in the case of children or fathers and mothers. But life is not black and white, and the things that people do to each other, which harm, are often not intended or even understood, by the ones who cause the harm.

I do not put one sex above another … there would be no men without women and no women without men. I go by the maxim in Romans 12:10…. ‘Honour one another above yourselves.’

That is due to both sexes.
Ray41
Posted: Friday, June 13, 2014 7:40:31 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 1,937
Neurons: 45,980
Location: Orange, New South Wales, Australia
Quote:
It is often said that children are resilient by those who want to show sympathy, or who want avoid facing up to the effects of theirs, or others, actions on a child. They look at the outward and forget that which they cannot see; that which is going on in the inside.
But this is far from the truth, for the apparent resilience hides deeper things… changes to personalities and emotions, which surface later in life. It holds true that for every action there is a reaction, however late that may be. It is no less true in the case of children or fathers and mothers. But life is not black and white, and the things that people do to each other, which harm, are often not intended or even understood, by the ones who cause the harm.


ithink;
I do believe that this is the most insightful paragraph I have ever seen you write.
The only correction that I would make is to the part I have highlighted with bold print.
The ones that cause harm know exactly what they are doing, they are just not capable of controlling their depravity.
The only possible cure for these parental paedophiles(or any other paedophile) is castration. I am willing to do it, but the law does not allow it.


I do not want to pursue the topic of some of the so-called fathers of at least 50% of the kids that come into our care as that is the percentage of sexual abuse of these children.
Some of the histories of these dysfunctional families is virtually indescribable and not a topic for this forum.Sick

I can emphatically state that, without exception, of all of the sexually abused children, all suffer acute anxiety as a minimum affect, and, most, actually suffer PTSD.(Here I also include males who have suffered gross acts when in care of a school, institution, scouts group, etc.).
All require lots of specialised counselling, as much love and security as we can possible offer, and, regardless of what treatment is available/offered, they will ALL suffer from low self esteem for the rest of their lives.
The sad part is, within families, without exception, the victims are female ranging in age from 2 years to 16 years old.
The perpetrators are, again, without exception, male.(Who are also the ones who sodomise the young males).
Yes, the family unit should be the building block of humanity, but, often, one or both parents fail to nurture, guide and protect the children with tragic consequences.
This is known to perpetuate itself, so that victims, usually because of their low self esteem, and having been psychologically conditioned by the perpetrator, usually see themselves as valueless.
This leads to poor choices as they grow older which sees them not capable of mixing with some of the better young males, so, they end up with bad relationships/marriages.
The wheel turns a full circle.Brick wall


To quote you again;
The breakdown of family life is one of the saddest features of our modern day.

Unfortunately this is only too true.
ithink140
Posted: Friday, June 13, 2014 9:14:13 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
I was not thinking along the lines of sexually abused children when I wrote the following words:

‘But life is not black and white, and the things that people do to each other, which harm, are often not intended or even understood, by the ones who cause the harm.’

I was not thinking of the extremity of sexual abuse, for which there is no excuse, I was thinking of emotional pain and hurt which is many times in the cycle of family life, and often a parent, or parents, come realise, with regret, at a later stage, that they harmed the loved ones. Something they never intended to do. Normally such parents love their children but are damaged themselves. While sexual abuse is a factor it far more often a lack of outward affection or emotional scarring that is the cause of hurt.

I was reared by my father and a stepmother, both of whom were unable to show affection. My mother abandoned me when I was about ten and kept up a monthly visit to me until I was about thirteen… then just stopped coming. When she was 86 years old I found her in an old folks home and we reunited… she died a few months later. I do not blame her or my father for anything. I wrote a poem about her.



ON HEARING OF THE DEATH OF MY MOTHER.(MUM)

The telephone rang at half-past eight this morning
The caller left a message on my machine
I spotted the flashing light, giving me warning
Getting me ready to hear the worst, I mean
‘Mum died at eight o’clock this morning’ the caller said
Finding it difficult to express truth in suitable ways
‘Died in her sleep’ she said ‘Peacefully, on a hospital bed.

I played the message yet again and again
Wanting and hoping it would move me to tears
But all it did as I knew it would was awaken the pain,
The pain of the hollow and empty years
Yet this was the woman who carried my form
Who provided me then with all my means
Who nurtured my being from early dawn
The woman who gave me half my genes.

I went to see her just two months ago
Went to see her in an old folk’s home
Took her out for a meal you know
Then I went home leaving her all alone
I sensed her hurt that she’d caused such pain
And her inability, now, to put it right
With life, once vigorous, now on the wane
Sadly no longer having the strength or the might


Bent and battered on the forge of life
Released, unwillingly, from daily grinds
Trouble, wearied with trial and strife
The coil of life now unwinds
Too late now to seek the past
To find, to understand, to know
Too late, now she has breathed her last
To see what deepest thoughts would show.

What shaped her, what hidden feelings were there to find
Trapped then within an ageing shell
As she, with time explored the memory mind
I wonder, what were her thoughts but who can tell
What deep regrets resided in her soul
What wishes to reshape her life like molded clay
But now lies still the golden bowl,
Its hopes, its yearnings succumbed to bitter day.

I felt for her, although I knew her not
I will not at her door, lay the blame
The hurt, the pain should be forgot
And honour afforded to her name
But oh that I could mourn in the normal sense
But the loss I grieve is that I cannot feel
Because the memories of mothering are a mere pretence
And I see no way for my wounds to heal.



Time has passed since I wrote this poem and, I am at peace. I have thought a lot about mum… we all do silly things in our lives and sometimes this is driven by past events. I love her. She had a difficult life full of sadness and covered up a lot for protection. She was a deep thinker and intelligent. I am glad she was my mum since she gave me things within my makeup that countered that of my father. I have no bad feelings towards her memory, just a deep sadness that now it is too late to find the answers to the many questions that remain. I believe that my father treated my mother badly and she was hurt, going on the defensive as a protection.

PS: I believe that both my parents loved me and I loved them and would not entertain the notion of sitting in judgement upon them. The capacity for absorbing wrong on the part of a child needing love is great, and the danger of being eaten up by bitterness in later life prevails... I count my self fortunate that such is not the case with me.

I also believe that the mould can be broken. As a father I had a burning desire to give my children love. I succeeded as they will say. I have just recently returned from a holiday in Bulgaria with my adult son and concluded this with a Vietnamese meal and a visit to a pub with my daughter.
Elorac
Posted: Friday, June 13, 2014 10:38:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/2014
Posts: 346
Neurons: 223,771
Location: London, England, United Kingdom
ithink140


You have written so much here that I and others will relate to. Much appreciation for sharing. Honest, fair, heartfelt, deep, painful yet inspiring.

Thank you
ithink140
Posted: Friday, June 13, 2014 11:10:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
Thanks, Elorac, and welcome to the forum.
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