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NEVERTHELESS VS. BUT Options
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 6:44:49 AM
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We can't afford to buy a new car. NEVERTHELESS/BUT, my wife wants to continue to loke for one.

Sales of new cars have been down the past six month, NEVERTHELESS/BUT this is expected to change soon.

Would you please kindly tell me which one MUST be chosen? or which one do you use?
Morzen
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 7:11:21 AM
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Location: Laguna Niguel, California, United States
Note: 'look' not 'loke'

In this case I would use 'nevertheless' because it emphasizes a direct concern of a quandary (issue, or problem) that you are going to ignore and so in this case, continue looking for a new car regardless of the quandary, issue or problem. Using 'but' is still grammatically correct, but a weaker version of 'nevertheless', which, *can* mean that you may or may not look for a new car. It's not as certain as 'nevertheless'.

As for the second statement, 'but' should be used because it's not as certain (about the prices).
Barely literate
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 7:39:00 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

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nima_persian wrote:
We can't afford to buy a new car. NEVERTHELESS/BUT, my wife wants to continue to loke for one.

Sales of new cars have been down the past six month, NEVERTHELESS/BUT this is expected to change soon.

Would you please kindly tell me which one MUST be chosen? or which one do you use?



I would say, the first sentence has some fundamental flaw.

You cannot afford to buy a new car. Having said the fact you continue "NEVERTHELESS/BUT, my wife wants to continue to loke for one." How do you continue look for one, given that you are searching a new one. In case of a secondhand one, it will be possible.

We can't afford to buy a new car. Nevertheless, my wife didn't lose her heart completely.

In your second sentence, "sale" is more accurate than "sales"
The sale of new cars has been down for the past six month. NEVERTHELESS, this phenomenon is expected to change soon.
thar
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 8:29:55 AM

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I have to disagree with you on this one, salesh. That 'fundamental flaw' is what the 'nevertheless' acknowledges.

We can't afford a new car. Nevertheless, my wife insists we continue to look for one.

The 'nevertheless' has a meaning of 'in spite of that problem, that barrier'. It is not the same as 'but' - which just states an opposing fact.

For that reason, the second sentence does not work with nevertheless - because there is no barrier, no reason it should not happen.

Sales of new cars have been low, but this is expected to change.

A sentence that used 'nevertheless' would contain more of a reason why not do do something - but you are doing it anyway.

eg
Sales of new cars have been low. Nevertheless, Ford is investing millions of dollars in a new car plant.

The first part gives a reason why you logically should not do the second part. Nevertheless, you go ahead and do it.

That is why it fits in the first sentence.
You should not buy a new car (because you can't aford it). Despite this, you go on looking anyway.

Hopefully, if you look at examples of the use of 'nevertheless' you should always see it is 'despite some sort of barrier, or adverse situation'. Hopefully! Whistle

(I have just noticed this is what Morzen said. I agree with their post - I just said it at more length! Whistle
Joy Frohlich
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:01:43 AM
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Location: Remagen, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany
The second sentence should read:

Sales of new cars have been down in the past six months, but this is expected to change.

OR

The sale of new cars ............

Momsey
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:16:13 AM
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Nevertheless means the same as despite the previously mentioned fact, one still continuous on a certain course. Despite no evidence of the existence of life on Mars, many people still believe that it is possible. There is no evidence of the existence of life on Mars, nevertheless, many people still believe it is possible.
nima_persian
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:26:12 AM
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Thank you all so much. Nonetheless, would anybody give me a certain or accurate source to prove your explanations? Think Not talking
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 10:32:02 AM

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Nima,
you are free to google or search by whatever means the accurate sources for nevertheless and but.
After that come back and tell us how it really is.
Jason Bourne
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 12:09:38 PM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 4/4/2014
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Location: Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India
Nevertheless, stands for, 'even though it is so'. Your second sentence, 'Sales of new cars have been down the past six month, nevertheless this is expected to change soon.' would make sense if 'nevertheless' is included.

But, is used when you are implying something that is contradictory to previous case, in sense. A small change in your first sentence could use 'but' in its appropriate sense. 'We can't afford to buy a new car. But my wife insists on buying one.'
nkelsey
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 1:22:59 PM
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Location: Apóstoles, Misiones, Argentina
We can't afford to buy a new car. BUT, my wife wants to continue to loke for one.
Barely literate
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 1:23:04 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/2012
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Thank you thar for your sincere attempt to correct me.
But I have more doubts regarding them.

thar wrote:
I have to disagree with you on this one, salesh. That 'fundamental flaw' is what the 'nevertheless' acknowledges.

We can't afford a new car. Nevertheless, my wife insists we continue to look for one.

The 'nevertheless' has a meaning of 'in spite of that problem, that barrier'. It is not the same as 'but' - which just states an opposing fact.


Everyone here approved that "nevertheless = despite that"
We can't afford a new car. Despite the fact/problem, my wife insists me continue to look for one.

Is this sentence wrong?


For that reason, the second sentence does not work with nevertheless - because there is no barrier, no reason it should not happen.

Sales of new cars have been low, but this is expected to change.

A sentence that used 'nevertheless' would contain more of a reason why not do do something - but you are doing it anyway.

eg
Sales of new cars have been low. Nevertheless, Ford is investing millions of dollars in a new car plant.

I think the same thing I tried to say in the former example even applies here.
Here are some examples I found it in OAAD. Link
Her voice was shaking despite all her efforts to control it.
Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.
She was good at physics despite the fact that she found it boring.

In which of these sentences one fact comes as a barrier for the other?


The first part gives a reason why you logically should not do the second part. Nevertheless, you go ahead and do it.

That is why it fits in the first sentence.
You should not buy a new car (because you can't aford it). Despite this, you go on looking anyway.

Hopefully, if you look at examples of the use of 'nevertheless' you should always see it is 'despite some sort of barrier, or adverse situation'. Hopefully! Whistle

(I have just noticed this is what Morzen said. I agree with their post - I just said it at more length! Whistle


P.S. No offense intended, I swear. My only intention is to better my English somehow.
thar
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 2:06:32 PM

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Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 24,417
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salesh2010 wrote:
Thank you thar for your sincere attempt to correct me.
But I have more doubts regarding them.

thar wrote:
I have to disagree with you on this one, salesh. That 'fundamental flaw' is what the 'nevertheless' acknowledges.

We can't afford a new car. Nevertheless, my wife insists we continue to look for one.

The 'nevertheless' has a meaning of 'in spite of that problem, that barrier'. It is not the same as 'but' - which just states an opposing fact.


Everyone here approved that "nevertheless = despite that"
We can't afford a new car. Despite the fact/problem, my wife insists me continue to look for one.

Is this sentence wrong?

It is almost right, and right in spirit. It should read:
We can't afford a new car. Despite that fact/problem, my wife insists I continue to look for one.
which you would actually drop the word 'fact, or problem' and just say
We can't afford a new car. Despite that, my wife insists I continue to look for one.
where 'that' refers to the whole idea of the previous sentence.

or
Despite the fact that we can't afford a new car, my wife insists I continue to look for one.
Edit - I made a mistake with that sentence, now corrected. I wasn't concentrating and neglected to put the phrases the other way round.

You need to use a pronoun to indicate it is that fact that makes it illogical.
I also just noticed you got the personal pronoun wrong. There is a phrase
I look for one.
which becomes
My wife insists I look for one.
or maybe it was just a typo for ' my wife insists we look for one.





For that reason, the second sentence does not work with nevertheless - because there is no barrier, no reason it should not happen.

Sales of new cars have been low, but this is expected to change.

A sentence that used 'nevertheless' would contain more of a reason why not do do something - but you are doing it anyway.

eg
Sales of new cars have been low. Nevertheless, Ford is investing millions of dollars in a new car plant.

I think the same thing I tried to say in the former example even applies here.
Here are some examples I found it in OAAD. Link
Her voice was shaking despite all her efforts to control it.
Despite applying for hundreds of jobs, he is still out of work.
She was good at physics despite the fact that she found it boring.

In which of these sentences one fact comes as a barrier for the other?

Maybe not always a barrier, but some situation that should be true, is not happening, something is stopping it from happening.
eg
she was trying to control her voice - it should have been under control. It should not have been able to shake. But, despite this 'barrier' to shaking, it still shook.
He applied for hundreds of jobs. logically, he should have got a job. That is the state he should be in. But, instead, he somehow manages to still be unemployed.
If you find something boring, you do not put in much effort, and you are not interested. You are not normally very good at it. Despite this situation of being bored, she still somehow manages to be good at physics.



The first part gives a reason why you logically should not do the second part. Nevertheless, you go ahead and do it.

That is why it fits in the first sentence.
You should not buy a new car (because you can't aford it). Despite this, you go on looking anyway.

Hopefully, if you look at examples of the use of 'nevertheless' you should always see it is 'despite some sort of barrier, or adverse situation'. Hopefully! Whistle

(I have just noticed this is what Morzen said. I agree with their post - I just said it at more length! Whistle


P.S. No offense intended, I swear. My only intention is to better my English somehow.

Is that meant for me? Absolutely no offence taken. I point out your mistakes for the same reason!
Barely literate
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:17:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/2012
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Thanks Thar
seemo74
Posted: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:45:08 PM

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Posts: 333
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Location: Cairo, Al Qahirah, Egypt
Dear :
Please check those example :
1. She found him physically repugnant, but she nevertheless agreed to marry him .
2. A small but nevertheless important change.
Now could you figure the difference .6
nima_persian
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:03:39 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/17/2013
Posts: 4,132
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I had planned to drive to Mexico; However/Nevertheless, my car is too old.

However/Nevertheless, my car is too old; I had planned to drive to Mexico.

So,considering what have been said, would anybody tell me which one and why?
thar
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:17:53 PM

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Neither is right. You have them the wrong way round.

If you look at the examples in the previous post, you will see the structure:
You state the obstacle - nevertheless, you do it.

My car is very old and often breaks down. Nevertheless, I plan to drive to Mexico.

First sentence = the reason why it is a bad idea, or unlikely to happen - [the obstacle].
Second sentence = nevertheless, it happens anyway.

(It does not have to be two separate sentences. But however you write it, the 'nevertheless' is linked to the action, not to the obstacle.)
nima_persian
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:56:29 PM
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Brick wall d'oh!
nima_persian
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2014 12:57:39 PM
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Joined: 2/17/2013
Posts: 4,132
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[quote=nima_persian]

1.I had planned to drive to Mexico; However/Nevertheless, my car is too old.

2.However/Nevertheless, my car is too old; I had planned to drive to Mexico.

My grammar book communicate what you mean is written the "first one", exactly, and has said choose one of them.

And, I have written the number 2.
thar
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2014 2:03:49 PM

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I am not sure what you mean by that, but the fact is, it is that way round.
You are obviously comparing all these conjunctions at the moment. I hope I don't confuse you by saying this, but they are all different ways of expressing the same thing. The difference is which phrase of the two, the word is attached to.
eg
the word order of these is not interchangeable. They express the same meaning, but using different conjunctions means you apply it to the different parts.

My car is very old. Nevertheless, I plan to drive to Mexico.

My car is very old. Still, I plan to drive to Mexico.

Despite my car being very old, I plan to drive to Mexico.

That is the obstacle, but the action happening anyway.


If it does not happen because of the obstacle, you use these conjunctions. Again, you cannot change which phrase they are linked to:

I did plan to travel to Mexico. However, my car is too old so I couldn't go.
I planned to travel to Mexico, but my car is too old so I couldn't go.

Does that help.
That is good as a start, although with more examples you will see them used with a bit of variation.
nima_persian
Posted: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:03:06 AM
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Thank you all so much.


So, am I right?Think

ALL OF THESE ARE ACCEPTABLE IN THE SENTENCE BELOW.Think

MY ROOMMATE DOESN'T LIKE HOT WEATHE; STILL/HOWEVER/NEVERTHELESS/NONETHELESS, HE WANTS TO GO TO MEXICO WITH ME.

..............
But has always the meaning of however, and are interchangeable always. But, it depends on punctuations- they are always as meaning are the same.


We can not say the following with nevertheless.

I did plan to travel to Mexico. However, my car is too old so I couldn't go.


........

Because we have enough reason, we would use nevertheless, nonetheless,yet, or still.

My car is very old. Still, I plan to drive to Mexico.


nima_persian
Posted: Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:04:58 AM
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nima_persian wrote:

Thank you all so much.


So, am I right?Think

ALL OF THESE ARE ACCEPTABLE IN THE SENTENCE BELOW.Think

MY ROOMMATE DOESN'T LIKE HOT WEATHE; STILL/HOWEVER/NEVERTHELESS/NONETHELESS, HE WANTS TO GO TO MEXICO WITH ME.

..............
But has always the meaning of however, and are interchangeable always. But, it depends on punctuations- they are always as meaning are the same.


We can not say the following with nevertheless.

I did plan to travel to Mexico. However, my car is too old so I couldn't go.


........

Because we have enough reason, we would use nevertheless, nonetheless,yet, or still.

My car is very old. Still, I plan to drive to Mexico.


nima_persian
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 2:58:24 AM
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Joined: 2/17/2013
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nima_persian wrote:
nima_persian wrote:

Thank you all so much.


So, am I right?Think

ALL OF THESE ARE ACCEPTABLE IN THE SENTENCE BELOW.Think

MY ROOMMATE DOESN'T LIKE HOT WEATHE; STILL/HOWEVER/NEVERTHELESS/NONETHELESS, HE WANTS TO GO TO MEXICO WITH ME.

..............
But has always the meaning of however, and are interchangeable always. But, it depends on punctuations- they are always as meaning are the same.


We can not say the following with nevertheless.

I did plan to travel to Mexico. However, my car is too old so I couldn't go.


........

Because we have enough reason, we would use nevertheless, nonetheless,yet, or still.

My car is very old. Still/yet/nevertheless/nonetheless, I plan to drive to Mexico.


Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:09:37 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hi Nima.

I think you're right.
"MY ROOM-MATE DOESN'T LIKE HOT WEATHER, STILL/HOWEVER/NEVERTHELESS/NONETHELESS, HE WANTS TO GO TO MEXICO WITH ME." makes sense, with any of the possible words.

Yes - 'But' has the meaning of 'however', but the use depends on the punctuation. (Position in the sentence).

"But", "however", "nevertheless", "nonetheless", "yet", and "still" all have the same basic meaning, but are used in different circumstances.
Your examples seem correct.
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