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wercozy
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:54:26 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/1/2009
Posts: 1,470
Neurons: 3,480
Location: United States
I used to belong to an online local newspaper forum. Everything was going well, I had friends, and it was great sharing ideas and laughs. Then the trolls and sock-puppets joined in. They ruined the fun for every one and created enemies. Then one day I'd had enough. The trolls were complaining about Liberals, Democrats, Jews, Muslims, and Atheists, and basically writing mean and hateful things. So when I wrote to the moderator to complain about the trolls, guess who got banned -- ME! My friends complained to the moderator and I was invited to come back, but when I tried to log in and create a new account, it was denied--- grrr!

I wonder what people did before courts and Democracy was invented?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Are there any other experiences of unfair banning?
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:59:09 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
wercozy wrote:


I wonder what people did before courts and Democracy was invented?


They used swords, maces, spears, fists,nails and teeth.
peterhewett
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:03:34 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/2009
Posts: 2,452
Neurons: 3,698
Location: In my head
But Wercozy that is an apt description of yourself. you do precisely what you accuse others of doing
wercozy
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 12:55:48 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/1/2009
Posts: 1,470
Neurons: 3,480
Location: United States
Jyrkkä Jätkä: Thanks for the smile.

Hey Peter: Check out my universe post. That will get the steam hurling out your ears, and send your blood pressure through the roof. What ever you do guy, make sure you HARBOR RESENTMENTS ALL YOUR LIFE!
bugdoctor
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:00:00 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/8/2009
Posts: 1,789
Neurons: 5,456
Location: United States - Georgia
wercozy wrote:
Then the trolls and sock-puppets joined in. The trolls were complaining about Liberals, Democrats, Jews, Muslims, and Atheists, and basically writing mean and hateful things.


Just curious. It seems from your post that there were NO trolls who complained about conservatives. So.... IYO, ALL the trolls are right wing radicals?
fred
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:08:40 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,475
Neurons: 4,457
Location: United States
I am a mod on a site, thousands of registered posters. I could go on for days about the "Range Wars between Mods and Pot Stirrers".
There are so many juveniles involved, I usually step back and let the fires burn out. If I step in with a calm and rational solution, someone always becomes emotional.

Both sides promote each others activity. They really enjoy each other and don't know it.

doubutsuMother
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 1:18:26 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/2009
Posts: 363
Neurons: 1,059
you're a ninny
paragorillabear
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:01:36 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/16/2009
Posts: 119
Neurons: 360
Location: United States
I joined this forum to help people answer questions about English and to contribute the knowledge of grammar I have built up over many years of studying and teaching it.

But, alas, forums are odd things. Conversations become fights. Everyone wants to speak up and have their say. But it seems as though no one really cares. We are all shouting into the wind.
Thus, I myself have backed away from my posting routine, and only occasionally may pop in to see what's happening.


All that being said, I have one comment here about flaming and trolling, especially in regard to the generally civil atmosphere here:

uh... aren't we supposed to avoid personal attacks?

isn't calling someone a ninny a bit out of bounds?
wercozy
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:19:32 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/1/2009
Posts: 1,470
Neurons: 3,480
Location: United States
Well, getting back to the topic...

Has anyone ever been banned unfairly as I was, or been suspended unfairly like FlashBack1968 and Kisholoy Mukherjee?
LeadPal
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:20:23 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/2009
Posts: 461
Neurons: 1,413
Location: Beyond the Impossible
The problem with the internet is the GIFT.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/

Strangely, I've never actually been banned, though; perhaps I'm too bland and inoffensive. Must be because I'm Canadian. ;-)
bugdoctor
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:24:02 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/8/2009
Posts: 1,789
Neurons: 5,456
Location: United States - Georgia
wercozy wrote:
Well, getting back to the topic...

Has anyone ever been banned unfairly as I was, or been suspended unfairly like FlashBack1968 and Kisholoy Mukherjee?


Being banned is a really heavy action. At the time you were banned, were you engaged in heated debate with someone? Was there insulting exchange between the two of you? If so, was the other person also banned?

Or were you entirely innocent of the above, and you simply complained about the trolls and got axed?
TB
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:49:15 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/2009
Posts: 1,437
Neurons: 4,277
Location: America
LeadPal wrote:
I've never actually been banned, though; perhaps I'm too bland and inoffensive. Must be because I'm Canadian. ;-)


Canadian men bland?...nah...but they do have a certain "do-right" quality about them Angel

Geeman
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 5:50:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2009
Posts: 1,787
Neurons: 125,022
Location: Whittier, California, United States
I've never been banned from a forum... but I don't think I'd be all that offended if I were. I try not to take things personally--even personal attacks--and I realize that the forums I participate in aren't my property. I would question the motives of someone who set up forums and then started banning people willy-nilly, but that's an entirely different thing.... It's important to bear in mind that just because people believe in free speech that doesn't mean they are obliged to share their soapbox with everyone and anyone. I'm a free speech zealot, but if you come over my house and try to exercise your right to say anything you want I am perfectly within my rights to kick you off my property.

I've moderated lists in the past, and never actually had to ban anyone. I did ask people to take their discussions to private email on a couple of occasions, delete inflammatory posts at the request someone attacked or who posted something in the heat of the moment, and I have admonished people for their behavior, but that's a pretty rare thing.

My personal take on this sort of thing is that there are very few things that are really unforgiveable, especially in the context of a message board, email mailing list or just about any public forum. Flame wars, trolls and sock puppets are a problem, but in a society that believes in free speech they are also a boon. Think of them as the lactic acid of free speech. Yes, it makes us sore. It might even hurt. But we need them to build up our muscles, endurance and tolerance. Without them we would be much flabbier and listless. We might claim to embrace free speech, but without the ability to test that belief it is pretty much moot.

That said, I do feel obliged to note that several responses to this post were hostile and obnoxious. They were also unprovoked. Do what you want, people, but do bear in mind that in flaming another poster for no apparent purpose you are really telling your readers a lot more about your own character than the person you attack. I've formed a much more negative impression of the posters who quickly and without any sense of decorum attacked wercozy without contributing in any meaningful way to the discussion. Such behavior is indicative of a real lack of intellectual integrity. It's important to challenge people so that they can get an opportunity to think about what they think, but if you post something that is entirely directed at another person, ignores the issues at hand, and even reads as a non-sequitor given the context of the thread... well, then you might want to rethink your participation.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 6:08:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Geeman wrote:

That said, I do feel obliged to note that several responses to this post were hostile and obnoxious. They were also unprovoked. Do what you want, people, but do bear in mind that in flaming another poster for no apparent purpose you are really telling your readers a lot more about your own character than the person you attack. I've formed a much more negative impression of the posters who quickly and without any sense of decorum attacked wercozy without contributing in any meaningful way to the discussion. Such behavior is indicative of a real lack of intellectual integrity. It's important to challenge people so that they can get an opportunity to think about what they think, but if you post something that is entirely directed at another person, ignores the issues at hand, and even reads as a non-sequitor given the context of the thread... well, then you might want to rethink your participation.


Just like you had my fingers in use. I definitely agree. Applause and a deep bow!
I've been moderating a couple of forum's.
Geeman
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:16:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2009
Posts: 1,787
Neurons: 125,022
Location: Whittier, California, United States
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Just like you had my fingers in use. I definitely agree. Applause and a deep bow!
I've been moderating a couple of forum's.

I'd bow back, but apparently that's the kind of thing Americans just can't do anymore....

It's probably worth asking in this context, what would you ban someone for?

Of course, something that might actually get a person in trouble with the law would be banned in a public forum I moderated, but I'd use a pretty gentle standard of evidence in such a situation. On the mailing list I moderated (still do, I suppose, though things are very quiet these days) I never had to ban anyone, but I would have if they'd flamed someone in a totally unprovoked way, particulary a newbie. There are those folks who seem to view the Internet as their personal emotional dumping ground, and get on to vent. There's not a lot you can do with such folks. A long, persistent stream of posts that distract from the topic at hand might be a good reason to ban someone....

My view on this kind of thing was that people can flame me all they want, but if they attack someone else then I'd have to step in and try to take things down a notch. Sometimes this actually became a problem because a person might get riled up at me and then someone else would chime in and the guy who was attacking me would just turn his venom on the next guy, which meant I had to jump up and call a halt to a discussion that had probably already "gone too far."

The tactic I've found works well when dealing with unruly folks on the Internet is to assume, even when you know it isn't really true, that a personal attack is made in teasing tone rather than an angry one. That way it's possible to respond with humor and wit rather than angrily. Of course, I imperfectly employ my own method from time to time... but it's an ideal, not a rule.
nooblet
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:45:13 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/2009
Posts: 1,570
Neurons: 4,778
Location: United States
When I used to moderate forums and IRC channels, I would ban any unauthorized bots, as well as malicious trolls that would spam insults to people and hinder discussion. The majority of the communities I have moderated for were typically no more than a few thousand (with only a hundred or so truly active posters), some as little as 50 or so members, so the communities are typically pretty close-knit, where everyone knows everyone else. Whenever I've had a say in the rules for forums or IRC channels, I tend to be pretty lenient about them, so long as people show respect for one another.

Obviously, there will always be people who clash. When they do get into a petty argument, I've always just given them reminders to move the conversation to private channels. I've never really had it escalate to anything that was a serious problem, though.

Also, I completely agree with Geeman's first post in this thread. While I definitely don't agree with a considerable amount of what Wercozy says, attacking her instead of her argument is inappropriate. In fact, it's a common fallacy (ad hominem) that I learned about years ago in my speech class, of all things.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:47:27 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Geeman wrote:


It's probably worth asking in this context, what would you ban someone for?


For repetitive personal insults or educating newbies by keeping thumb in one's eye cavity (metaphor) ignoring remarks and warnings by admins.

Now that I remember: some years ago I participated IHWC Forum during Ice Hockey World Champs. Some juveniles (maybe some adults too) from Russia, Latvia, Czechs and Finland started a new WWII in ice hockey discussion. Looked that for awhile and finally posted a sarcastic comment to cool them a little. Admins banned few users and gave me a warning.

Sometimes I can use sarcastic and maybe even bitter words myself. I'm willing to take back tit for tat.

Most of the time I read other's post with laugh and write mine with smile Angel

sandraleesmith46
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 8:50:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/2009
Posts: 695
Neurons: 2,132
Location: Arizona's high deserts
Wercozy wrote that he was banned from a site after having used it for some time, and after reporting trolls and sock puppets. I'm something of a dinosaur, and not familiar with those terms' meanings in this context; flaming, I presume from the context is used to designate a personal attack, like fighter pilots flame each other in dog fights. However, also from the context, it doesn't sound reasonable that you were banned from the site. Did you ask why you were unable to log back in after you were invited back, and then unable to do so? That might have been a glitch also. In any case, it's never pleasant to be excluded from something you enjoy, and especially without explanation for the exclusion. I suppose someone needs to set up a forum for people to just vent their grudges and pet peeves on. I don't know who that would be, and it could get a bit ugly, I suspect, and that may be why there isn't one already. Sniping at one another solves nothing and hurts feelings needlessly, as others have said, and this isn't the place for that.
rosicrucian
Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009 9:41:07 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/25/2009
Posts: 142
Neurons: 425
Location: Philippines
I've never been banned from a forum but experienced deleting my post out of the forum.
Kat
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:50:54 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/19/2009
Posts: 878
Neurons: 3,389
This is the only forum I've ever
joined and have not been banned yet.
I guess it could happen at any time
though.

peterhewett
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:14:55 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/2009
Posts: 2,452
Neurons: 3,698
Location: In my head
When you have an obnoxious rude man hater like Wercozy posting, it is hard not to put her in her place occasionally. You should read some of her posts sometime. In my opinion she is one nasty lady. I am not the least surprised that she was banned and can well imagine why. I make no apologies for this statement. She has raised the ire of many.
AJC
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:57:16 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 829
Neurons: 2,436
Location: United States, Michigan
It is quite likely that I too am a target of the last few statements. Again, when we are traveling along here having civilized discussion,debate and disagreement we can usually count on Wercozy to chime in and throw a zinger. Just the manner of asking someone "what's up your alley so-and so, if you want nicey-nice go to the teletubbies forum?" Or something to that effect. It's just the constant nastiness of tone that is inflammatory. Not Necessary! Not Civilized! Chastising those who would like her to stop is like shooting the messenger. I don't have to have the zinger aimed at me to feel my ire raised. I will step to the defense of someone else on occasion. Go back and see her history. You'll be the next one in line to tell her to go somewhere that people want to bare knuckle it. She is a man hater who is constantly on the attack. I'm thinking men REALLY do not take to her and this is her way of fighting with them.
Tman
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:14:08 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/5/2009
Posts: 166
Neurons: 3,896
"To thine own self be true."

Since I registered for this forum about a couple of months ago, this topic has come up a few times and in each case along with the replies, no one ever seems to know why they have been banned or temporarily suspended.

I would like to be able to see first hand and immediately who had the apparently unfortunate experience to warrant such action. Possibly we could then decide over a period of suspensions what constitutes the criteria for the reprovals.

Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:29:14 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
peterhewett wrote:
When you have an obnoxious rude man hater like Wercozy posting, it is hard not to put her in her place occasionally. You should read some of her posts sometime. In my opinion she is one nasty lady. I am not the least surprised that she was banned and can well imagine why. I make no apologies for this statement. She has raised the ire of many.


I'm concerned of your BP, Peter!
peterhewett
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:34:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/2009
Posts: 2,452
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Location: In my head
I have no idea what BP is JJ
AJC
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:04:45 AM
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Joined: 7/16/2009
Posts: 829
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Location: United States, Michigan
peterhewett wrote:
I have no idea what BP is JJ


Blood Pressure
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:10:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
AJC wrote:
peterhewett wrote:
I have no idea what BP is JJ


Blood Pressure


GIR, AJC.




Got it right.
risadr
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:14:02 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 1,155
Neurons: 3,545
Location: PA, United States
wercozy wrote:
Well, getting back to the topic...

Has anyone ever been banned unfairly as I was, or been suspended unfairly like FlashBack1968 and Kisholoy Mukherjee?


I've never been banned from a forum, but I was banned from a "community" on the popular blogging site livejournal. The moderator of the community even went as far as to call me out in a post he made to the community about how immaturity would be handled on the community. Honestly, I thought that his "making an example of me" was a perfect example of the exact kind of immaturity he was targeting and he should have banned himself, but I was apparently the only one who saw the humor/irony in the situation. For what it's worth, I was banned from the community for making a post that contained "too many pictures" and complaining when said post was deleted from the community.
peterhewett
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:21:31 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/2009
Posts: 2,452
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Location: In my head
Blood pressure? I should not worry yourself JJ, although it nice of you to be concerned, mine has always been normal. What about your own?

Ha ha... I have just discovered you are a man and I had always put you down as a woman. I noticed your post about helping as fisherman and checked out you profile.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:29:52 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
peterhewett wrote:
Blood pressure? I should not worry yourself JJ, although it nice of you to be concerned, mine has always been normal. What about your own?

Ha ha... I have just discovered you are a man and I had always put you down as a woman. I noticed your post about helping as fisherman and checked out you profile.


This tells more of you, than you can imagine. Sigh.
Well, I have no heart so I have ultimately low BP. The little there is, comes from earthy spirits.
Raparee
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:39:33 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/2009
Posts: 1,228
Neurons: 18,102
risadr wrote:
wercozy wrote:
Well, getting back to the topic...

Has anyone ever been banned unfairly as I was, or been suspended unfairly like FlashBack1968 and Kisholoy Mukherjee?


I've never been banned from a forum, but I was banned from a "community" on the popular blogging site livejournal. The moderator of the community even went as far as to call me out in a post he made to the community about how immaturity would be handled on the community. Honestly, I thought that his "making an example of me" was a perfect example of the exact kind of immaturity he was targeting and he should have banned himself, but I was apparently the only one who saw the humor/irony in the situation. For what it's worth, I was banned from the community for making a post that contained "too many pictures" and complaining when said post was deleted from the community.

Feh...you have to take LJ with a grain of salt (or a pound, your preference) for things like that. Unless it's specifically mentioned in comm rules, it's all BS on too many pics, especially if you know for a fact others have been posting as many pics.

That being said, I still prefer LJ over any other blogging site I've tried. You just have to be particular in where you go. I tend to lurk for a long while to get the feel for a group before jumping into the fray. :D Mostly now, I use it for myself and for keeping up with a yoga journal and some really neat icons (why I collect such things, I've no clue, but at least it's only harddrive space and not actual space). I'm not terribly active on LJ at the moment as I'm in a transitional phase and still sorting myself, figuring out where to go next.

I've been sort of kicked out of a site. I had remarkable trouble accessing it since an upgrade it made did not make my computers (all of them and all browsers) happy at all. Got to the point I rarely logged in. I did log in during special events for nostalgic reasons, but when I posted in a members-only section disputing some notion they had during said even, I got kicked out proper and they put up a nasty lil message saying such places were for MEMBERS ONLY!!!!111!!1!. I was miffed, but figured if they were going to play that way, I was better off just putting that place into memory. Guess I didn't fit their notion of what a proper member should be since I was supporting the opposition at that point. I actually thought about asking a friend to post a response for me, but I realized it would do no good and wasn't worth the effort, so now I just feel sad for them for becoming that which they hated.

Mostly now, I tend to avoid reading messages from posters who annoy me. I don't go to their threads and I will skip over their postings in threads I do visit. Why subject myself to things I know will annoy me? And that goes for every form of media out there.
peterhewett
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 11:56:08 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/2009
Posts: 2,452
Neurons: 3,698
Location: In my head
The way to know me JJ is to read my poetry and books...that's the real me
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 4:43:54 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
peterhewett wrote:
The way to know me JJ is to read my poetry and books...that's the real me


I've read your poems here.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:32:25 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,147
Neurons: 599,149
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
One thing, Mr. PH, or more.
Have you ever considered hospital cures, seriously?

"Blood pressure? I should not worry yourself JJ, although it nice of you to be concerned, mine has always been normal. What about your own?

Ha ha... I have just discovered you are a man and I had always put you down as a woman. I noticed your post about helping as fisherman and checked out you profile."

After my nearly 500 posts here. Do you ever read anyone else's than your own? Who do you like to put down, me or the females?

And since you're an author. Activate your spell-checker.
RRP
Posted: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:55:12 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/29/2009
Posts: 165
Neurons: 514
Sometimes you can be banned temporarily if you are on the same IP block address as someone else recently banned.

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