The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

A Sad Day for Justice, Zimmerman Aquitted. Options
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 6:31:36 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,056
Neurons: 83,934
Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty

When I read this headline this morning, I noted the emotional response it evoked. I was a little bit surprised that it was one of profound sadness. It seems to me this is a fair synopsis of what occurred that night...

Grown man leaves house with a loaded weapon to follow someone he considers a suspicious character, and this directly against police instructions. Follows and freaks out a 17 year old boy, gets into a confrontation, and ends up killing a boy.
No way this is anything other than a criminal act.

Even if stand your ground laws, get him off a murder rap, this is at the very least manslaughter.
And still all I find within me is sadness, I wonder at that, I seem to know that earlier in life this would have raised an immense anger in me. It seems to me sad, that all there is, is sadness.
I wonder when it was I gave up on the notion of justice in society.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
ithink140
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:23:01 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
I don't know enough of the facts to make such a judgment. But there is another scenario.

Man carries weapon for protection. Foolishly intervenes when he suspects youth of criminal act... gets beaten up as shown by subsequent head injuries, and over reacts by shooting attacker.

We were not at the trial. We can only glean what we can.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:53:45 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,056
Neurons: 83,934
Not quite IT, Zimmerman called police to report a suspicious character, was told by the dispatcher not to follow him, that police were on the way. He hen followed Trayvon first in his car, and then on foot. Also walking down a sidewalk is not a reasonable reason to suspect someone of criminal activity.
Your right you don't know enough of the facts; however, the trial was broadcast live here, and I watched a significant amount of it.
There is no way this was a justified killing, perhaps not murder, but manslaughter by foolishness, is still manslaughter, which is what I think he should have been convicted of.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
ithink140
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:19:06 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
I think you too do not know enough. What about the injuries to the guys heads? I am not saying one way or other. It pays to be cautious when challenging trial results. Putting oneself above judge and jury is not always wise. When it comes down to it opinion plays a big part. It is true one can have a gut feeling, but when all said and done that is all it is.

I think the man was foolish at the very least, and there seems to be a bit of the vigilante about him but we were not there.




'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Christine
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:20:51 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/3/2009
Posts: 3,923
Neurons: 15,842
Trayvon should call his dad instead of talking with that girl. Very sad story. I agree with you Ep.

I am carrying my heart~I am carrying my rhythm~I am carrying my prayers~But you can't kill my spirit~It's soaring and strong (Paula Cole's Me Lyrics)***We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We ARE spirtual beings having a human experience.(T.deChardin)***There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. (Albert Einstein)



GLC
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:24:38 AM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 7/14/2013
Posts: 1
Neurons: 3
Location: United States, OH
The police didn't order him not to follow Trayvon, they just said they didn't need him to follow him. It isn't against the law to follow anybody. It IS against the law to assault somebody, which is what Trayvon did, and it is not against the law to defend oneself.
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:27:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,056
Neurons: 83,934
Christine wrote:
Trayvon should call his dad instead of talking with that girl. Very sad story. I agree with you Ep.


Yea I agree Christine, Trayvon would have been much wiser to have called his dad, 17 year old kids though, generally haven't had the time to accumulate much in the way of wisdom, near 30 year olds should have.

Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
etrusca
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:18:38 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/22/2010
Posts: 499
Neurons: 65,101
Unfortunately he'll never be 30 years old. That is tha fact. We have only one life; nobody has the right to deprive us of it. I don't like people going around armed. If you take a weapon with you, that means you are willing to shoot. Too bad. I'll never believe that is a right way for self-defending.
Christine
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:39:02 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/3/2009
Posts: 3,923
Neurons: 15,842
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/13/NAACP-Demands-DOJ-Pursue-Civil-Rights-Charges-Against-Zimmerman

NAACP Demands DOJ Pursue Civil Rights Charges Against Zimmerman

I am carrying my heart~I am carrying my rhythm~I am carrying my prayers~But you can't kill my spirit~It's soaring and strong (Paula Cole's Me Lyrics)***We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We ARE spirtual beings having a human experience.(T.deChardin)***There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. (Albert Einstein)



Litwittylou
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:05:48 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 6/26/2013
Posts: 14
Neurons: 42
Location: United States, NJ
This isn't the end of it. A civil lawsuit was filed, much as in the OJ case. And the Feds have suspended their investigation, but it may be reopened. Legally, Mr. Zimmerman is obligated to testify in the civil suit and his testimony may be used against him if the Feds decide to file charges. So, God willing, justice may be served after all.

We need to make books cool again. If you go home with somebody and they don't have books, don't sleep with them.
Hope2
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:38:49 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,909
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
You are right Epi. This story is very sad. I think the jury were swayed by the 'protect yourself with a gun at all costs mentality', saw the laceration pictures, and ignored the more important fact that he had stalked the kid after being told by police not to.

To illustrate how 'gun protection theory' sways perception, I wish I had the picture of police with gun drawn on a woman clerk answering the door of a pharmacy where it was suspected they were doing a fraudulent business. There were several letters to the editor about overkill, (some of them from Canadian snowbirds) but the majority of Americans in this southern FL city saw nothing wrong with a drawn gun in that situation. I know of two medical doctors, one Canadian, one American, who were accused of administering inappropriate supplements/herbs as medical doctors. Both had their records removed by the police. The difference was that in the States, the police went in guns drawn. (I saw the Canadian doctor for thirty years, so I know the story is true. The CMA just did not like his alternative care methods. He was doing nothing wrong and was getting results where others failed.)

This following story is quite the contrast with the Zimmerman story.

Texas teen could get 10 years in prison for Facebook post.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/tech/social-media/facebook-jailed-teen/index.html?iref=allsearch

He was in jail for five months and only released because of an anonymous donor.

lol and j/k (just joking) were ignored.

Where is common sense these days in any country? It was a Canadian who reported his post. Ridiculous.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Listening . . .
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:54:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 962
Neurons: 3,940
I watched televised testimony in this case. Zimmerman had already been on trial and found guilty in the media. The facts of the case, however, prove his innocence. Zimmerman was not the aggressor. He was responding as the captain of a neighborhood watch team where there had been several recent break-ins in his community. When the prosecution didn't prove their 2nd degree murder charge, they requested the judge allow the charges of Manslaughter and Child Abuse charges to be considered. She allowed the jury to consider the Manslaughter charge. The jury did not find him guilty of this charge, either.

The media has played a huge part in the portrayal of Trayvon Martin as an innocent child victim. Photos used show a sweet, young boy. He was, in fact, a 17 year old with a troubled, violent history. He had been into drugs, kicked out of school, and was researching how to buy a gun. The prosecution and the media continued to reference him as a child invoking an image of the innocence that a child holds. He was not a sweet, young child anymore.

I have profound sympathy for the parents and family of Trayvon Martin. As a parent, there can be no greater pain. I hope they are able to find peace and begin to heal.

The whole situation is unfortunate but (I believe) . . . Justice has been served. Consider this: Zimmerman has been exonerated and should be left alone.
Steve
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:01:59 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/13/2009
Posts: 68
Neurons: 408
The 911 dispatcher told him not to pursue, not the police. The 911 dispatcher has no authority.
Maggie
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:58:30 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2009
Posts: 730
Neurons: 2,128
There was absolutely NO evidence to prove that Zimmerman committed a crime. Trayvon Martin was a thug, and he acted on his thuggery one time too many. This is a great day for Americans’ rights to defend themselves.

"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
martyg
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:42:50 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/2/2009
Posts: 327
Neurons: 2,386
virtually most, but not all, of the comments regarding the 'zimmerman' trial and exoneration are from people who
have no substance that qualify their opinions.

nobody wants innocent people or even suspected criminals to die without 'the facts' and that means just
the facts. but who is 1000% smart enough to make that decision? nobody!!

but unassailable is the fact that being 17 years old doesn't make you a boy.

having worked in coney island, many years ago, i quickly learned that gang
violence or other crimes didn't favor or separate 14 year olds from 30 year olds.

how long this scenario will take to play out is not determinable, but it will!

in a totally unconnected vein, but equally heart rendering, my thoughts and
great sorrow are with the 3 or 4 (?) chinese children's fatalities of the boeing 777 crash recently.
and obviously also with the other crash victims.

einstein said it: 'everything in life is relative'
TheParser
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:00:45 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2012
Posts: 4,669
Neurons: 22,062
Some people feel that this is a "sad" day for American justice; others feel that it is a "happy" day for American justice.

I only wanted to report something that I heard on TV today: After the trial, the prosecutors walked over to the defense attorneys to shake hands. One of the defense attorneys refused to shake hands. He was outraged by what he considered the prosecutors' unfair tactics. What tactics? Listening's post contains the answer.
Christine
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 5:33:23 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/3/2009
Posts: 3,923
Neurons: 15,842
Remember: Zimmerman as saying that Martin was one of the "F------ punks" who "always get away."

I am carrying my heart~I am carrying my rhythm~I am carrying my prayers~But you can't kill my spirit~It's soaring and strong (Paula Cole's Me Lyrics)***We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We ARE spirtual beings having a human experience.(T.deChardin)***There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. (Albert Einstein)



Hope2
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 5:51:16 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,909
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Here's part of what CNN says.

"Reconciling the two wildly disparate views of this trial is not easy.

As legal analysts noted in the months leading up to the testimony, so many people made it so clear they saw the killing in substantially different ways.

To one side, Zimmerman was at worst an overzealous citizen just trying to make sure his neighborhood was safe. To the other, he was a gun-toting predator, hunting, harassing and provoking a fatal fight with an innocent teen.

To one side, Martin was little more than a child returning home after getting a snack. To the other, he was a hulking young man who could have gone inside, talked with Zimmerman or called the police, but instead decided to attack with his fists and paid with his life.

And since people on both sides seemed to have decided the case before the testimony was heard, the verdict was bound to be disturbing no matter how it tilted. Simply put, preconceived notions effectively had people watching two different trials, with every bit of testimony and evidence producing different, and often opposing, reactions in those dueling audiences." End of quote.

Hey, Foundit - both sides, including me, were doing 'Confirmation Bias' - finding proof for what they believed, and ignoring what did not fit with their point of view.

Still, the jury is in. They had the job. And democracy prevails.

But hopefully both sides will learn from this that actions carry consequences.

Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Listening . . .
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 5:52:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 962
Neurons: 3,940
Christine wrote:
Remember: Zimmerman as saying that Martin was one of the "F------ punks" who "always get away."


Seems to be a logical response. Zimmerman was a person well aware of the break-ins in his neighborhood.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:28:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,530
Neurons: 50,615
Hope2 wrote:

Hey, Foundit - both sides, including me, were doing 'Confirmation Bias' - finding proof for what they believed, and ignoring what did not fit with their point of view.

I did the opposite. I deliberately avoided watching or listening to anything about the case, as I didn’t want to be influenced by the talking heads on radio or TV. I had questions, of course, as soon as I heard the initial report, but decided that since I was not there, I could not know the details, so could not make a judgment.

I was perfectly happy to leave it to those who would hear all the evidence, and make their decision based on that, apart from the emotional, conformational biases that were obviously being perpetrated by folks on both sides. I am glad you recognize having been engaged in Conformational Bias, however.

Interesting; are you becoming more aware of how the principle works? If so, some questions arise. Why, may I ask, would you permit yourself to do this? Was it habit? Was there a preconditioned meme to which you have attached your social viewpoint? To which peer group were you hoping to be considered a part, and why? From which source was your desire for approval, your desire to belong, and from which source would the rejection come, the group to whom you did not want to be associated, and why?

BTW, do you still believe that is what I am doing with my hypothesis, or did I answer your questions concerning that?



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
dusty
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:57:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,769
Neurons: 5,755
FounDit wrote:


"...I did the opposite. I deliberately avoided watching or listening to anything about the case, as I didn’t want to be influenced by the talking heads on radio or TV. I had questions, of course, as soon as I heard the initial report, but decided that since I was not there, I could not know the details, so could not make a judgment.

I was perfectly happy to leave it to those who would hear all the evidence, and make their decision based on that, apart from the emotional, conformational biases that were obviously being perpetrated by folks on both sides. I am glad you recognize having been engaged in Conformational Bias, however.

Interesting; are you becoming more aware of how the principle works? If so, some questions arise. Why, may I ask, would you permit yourself to do this? Was it habit? Was there a preconditioned meme to which you have attached your social viewpoint? To which peer group were you hoping to be considered a part, and why? From which source was your desire for approval, your desire to belong, and from which source would the rejection come, the group to whom you did not want to be associated, and why?....




Yes, yes of course, why would subject themselves to the more straight forward -- direct even -- approach to hearing about what happened. You can alway's get the subliminal, indirect manipulative insinuations from civilized, no bull, no games conversation even if only on a forum.

I have to admit though, that attempting to detain a person for questioning when an officer is out of uniform is dangerous, and it is the reason the uniforms are quite distinct and unmistakable, because when you attempt to stop "a suspect" they won't comply, and if you put your hands on a citizen no matter what you justification, the citizen will feel threatened and defend himself.

In such circumstances an officer carrying a firearm is a very very foolish thing to carry because, out of uniform, without a badge, acting as an officer is to provoke "a suspect" or any person regardless of innocence of guilty, it is provoking said person to defend against the perp (which would be the out of uniform officer without a badge)

Seeing as how zimmerman was NOT an officer, and carrying a firearm, how one can justify provoking a minor to defend himself, then to use lethal force when he does exactly that, makes me wish I was on that jury, because without all the facts it seems our system is broken.

perhaps it had something to do not with news reporters, but the immediate onslot of right wing -- well paid -- well organized -- teams who work to paint a picture that tells a story through implication, via subtle not directly said statements.

It seems to be what is destroying the very fabric of this great nation, care of those who proclaim to love it.

it is a sad state of affairs when the public does not come together and devise a plan to protect democracy, freedom, Justice and due process. For if we are not careful -- because regardless of the obviousness of the situation -- those who refuse to be honest are in a position to systematically dismantle the safeguards written into law that were meant to protect US from such evil.


Good for you Foundit for being a shining example and to remind US what to look for in order to identify and choose the rightApplause

I feel inspired to sing the national anthem because of your patriotism and dedication to truth and justice, and to not be swayed by those who attempt to influence USNot talking [sic]

To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Hope2
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:29:40 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,909
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Hi FD,

I did not really pay much attention to it after it happened. I did not watch any of the trial, and reacted to the news this morning because I believed, and still do, that he, Zimmerman, was wrong. My whole reasoning was based upon the report that Zimmerman was told to stay out of it and did not. I do not care who told him. He was warned. I think that much of the reports is correct. And then he needed to defend himself. The fighting and the need to defend came afterwards. But I was not privy to police reports so that is why I called myself up for reacting without all the data in case the report I heard about being warned was incorrect. And I was wrong once before. Whistle Whistle Whistle

My last post in this thread was to show that this is a very good example what can happen when everyone on both sides sees and hears only what they wish to see and hear. It is human nature to defend our positions. (Maybe I need to go back to teaching, lol.)

Off topic - As for becoming more aware of how your approval principle works, I have worked very hard for fifty years to recognize it in myself before I react so I can then choose whether or not 'sucking up' is the way to go. If you meant the principle of confirmation bias, I have a degree in Psychology and Sociology, so no, I am not just understanding that principle either. You did answer me and I take your word that you were not doing it then. And I don't think confirmation bias here was connected to my need for approval/acceptance as your questions implied, unless I misunderstood.

As for your other thread, I gave up. Too much (for the premise) irrelevant data trying to define love was added, you said the premise is unprovable in your view, and you have no real desire to prove it scientifically. Also, the parameters changed as the thread progressed - from 'child pleasing' not being extinguished as an adult because of variable reinforcement, to self approval etc. I did find all kinds of other motivations for humankind i was going to post about for discussion, but as I said, I lost interest. Besides, there are time constraints as my online Gastronomy course from the University of Hong Kong was added to my list. Should be fun. I will post some recipes if I get some good ones.

I do think your premise has merit, but not in such absolute terms. That was all I objected to, as I said before. I wish you the best with it and I am very glad it helps you. Anything that helps us get through the night is fine with me! And if your thread helped even one person to recognize it in themselves, and they can then watch for it, then it was worth the effort.



Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
Christine
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 9:35:21 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/3/2009
Posts: 3,923
Neurons: 15,842
Listening . . . wrote:
Christine wrote:
Remember: Zimmerman as saying that Martin was one of the "F------ punks" who "always get away."


Seems to be a logical response. Zimmerman was a person well aware of the break-ins in his neighborhood.


one of the punks.... he assume wrong. And, that took that kid's life.



I am carrying my heart~I am carrying my rhythm~I am carrying my prayers~But you can't kill my spirit~It's soaring and strong (Paula Cole's Me Lyrics)***We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We ARE spirtual beings having a human experience.(T.deChardin)***There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. (Albert Einstein)



Listening . . .
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:00:44 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 962
Neurons: 3,940
Christine wrote:
Listening . . . wrote:
Christine wrote:
Remember: Zimmerman as saying that Martin was one of the "F------ punks" who "always get away."


Seems to be a logical response. Zimmerman was a person well aware of the break-ins in his neighborhood.


one of the punks.... he assume wrong. And, that took that kid's life.



I am curious how you know Zimmerman assumed wrong. All facts, all evidence shows that Zimmerman had every reason to be concerned.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:02:48 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,530
Neurons: 50,615
Hope2,

I shouldn’t be surprised, yet I am, because I thought you had grasped the fundamentals of it; the twin poles, as Romany said, around which our motivations cycle. However, I must accept it, since I’ve seen this occur very often. People tend to get distracted by the myriad manifestations, and lose sight of the principle.

On the other hand, perhaps it’s just me. Maybe one has to have my peculiar personality traits in order to see it. Oh well, you asked, I tried, no harm, no foul.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:08:05 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,530
Neurons: 50,615
dusty wrote:

Good for you Foundit for being a shining example and to remind US what to look for in order to identify and choose the rightApplause

I feel inspired to sing the national anthem because of your patriotism and dedication to truth and justice, and to not be swayed by those who attempt to influence US Not talking [sic]

Why, thank you, dusty (taking a bow), you honor me.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
Hope2
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:30:31 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,909
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
OK, FD.

I am tired and off to bed, perhaps not a good time to be posting this, but -

Now you ticked me off. Because I disagree, I am too stupid to understand?



Most of the trouble in the world is caused by people wanting to be important. T. S. Eliot
dusty
Posted: Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:26:39 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,769
Neurons: 5,755
FounDit wrote:
dusty wrote:

Good for you Foundit for being a shining example and to remind US what to look for in order to identify and choose the rightApplause

I feel inspired to sing the national anthem because of your patriotism and dedication to truth and justice, and to not be swayed by those who attempt to influence US Not talking [sic]

Why, thank you, dusty (taking a bow), you honor me.


In all honesty Foundit, I feel I should fully disclose my sarcasm, as I think you might have understood it, but when people will not -- for whatever reason -- own their own words, without leaving anything to ambiguity, I view the words of political opinion such as yours to be the kind one should ignore. Like the quote of yours that I emboldened, in my previous comment, I feel passive implications are poor examples of communication.


If a person refuses to own their words, and be direct without subtlety, it only serves to detract from the clarity of a discussion, or in other words, amounts to manipulation.

As never before have I ever heard of alleged crime take place, then after the interwebs immediately flooded with accounts that amounted to nothing more and nothing less than bearing false witness against the minor who was shot dead by Zimmerman

So I was being sarcastic, because I believe it was wrong to do so, as it muddies the facts as a tactic to influence the case.

Because I know what it is like to have a person attempt to detain me for questioning and it is scary when they do not identify themselves as officers of the law.

And I guarantee you that zimmerman put his hands on that minor as Trayvon attempted to continue walking.

And I believe that Trayvon had every right to defend himself against a man with no authority, which I guarantee you had happened.

And I guarantee you that Trayvon did not attempt to assault zimmerman any more than was necessary to escape from the perpetrator.

As that was what Trayvon was attempting to do, make it home.

this was the situation which zimmerman used lethal force. He shot and killed a minor who was defending himself and trying to escape

and our system is broken, when it can be manipulated by well organized, and well payed teams who bear false witness, and lawyers who instead or arguing the legality of action taken, mold actions to fit the legal boundaries of established law and if they can slip it by the judge and jury, that is considered just law

So to be clear, it is not a good thing that we are congratulating the NRA and right wing special interest groups, as it's instances such as these which are one of the reasons we are seeing for the first time ever, erosion of the foundation of United States of America.



To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Listening . . .
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 12:21:35 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 962
Neurons: 3,940
Dusty, you said -
"And I guarantee you that zimmerman put his hands on that minor as Trayvon attempted to continue walking.

And I believe that Trayvon had every right to defend himself against a man with no authority, which I guarantee you had happened.

And I guarantee you that Trayvon did not attempt to assault zimmerman any more than was necessary to escape from the perpetrator.

As that was what Trayvon was attempting to do, make it home. "


With all your first hand knowledge and "guarantees" of what happened that night, you really should have come forward and spoken to the authorities. The prosecution would have been happy to finally have a witness that helped their case.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 12:30:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 30,135
Neurons: 176,615
Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
I had never heard of this case or trial until yesterday, so do not have any "media data".

The facts that everyone seem to agree on are these, I think.

- Zimmerman is not a policeman, nor any other sort of official.

- Zimmerman saw someone (Martin), who he thought might be intending some crime.

- He called the police, who said they were on their way.

- The Police dispatcher told Zimmerman he didn't need to follow Martin.

- Zimmerman followed Martin, taking a gun.

- At some point, Zimmerman tried to stop Martin.
(In Britain, if he had touched Martin in any way, he would be guilty of assault - even if he were a paid licensed security guard. He could inform him that the police were coming and ask him to wait).
(If he had seen Martin do something illegal, he could have held him for the police, but would be responsible for Martin's safety during the wait).

- Martin tried to fight back against this attack, punching Zimmerman.

- Zimmerman shot and killed Martin.

To help me understand, can you tell me:

1. Are any of those data untrue, or questioned? Any major point missing (what girl, Christine?)

2. Is there any evidence that Martin was intending or attempting anything criminal?

3. If you were innocently walking home and found yourself being followed, then the guy following you tried to stop you with a gun, would you not want to escape?


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
dusty
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 1:02:49 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,769
Neurons: 5,755
No I was not Witness, but I have been on both sides of the fence, I have had my house broken into I have confronted people who were possible suspects, and I have had some overzealous idiot attempt to detain me as he thought I was illegally duck hunting because I was exercising my dogs on a public wetland reserve wearing my duck hunting jacket, unarmed and he was armed. I refused to give him my name of any information and I told him to call the cops I would gladly wait for them as they wouldn't take long to get there if the situation was described as a man holding me at gunpoint and if they didn't get there soon there would likely be a deadman but I will leave a note with my phone number so they can reach me later. You have no idea how frightening it is. I didn't understand why he was trying to detain me and search my vehicle, but I sure as hell didn't believe he thought I was illegally hunting that is sure. I got lucky because if I didn't have two large dogs with me, which made me less pannicked, and he pulled a gun on me when I refused to show him my drivers license of let him go through my truck (which he did), I would have definitely thought he was going to kill me, and I would have thought I have to at least try and I would have attacked him. If my dogs weren't with me there is no doubt I would have feared for my life and I would have attacked him.


Thank God I wasn't carrying, because I have had wardens approach me out of season because the best rain coat I have is my hunting jacket, and I know better than to be carrying any firearm out of season.

If any of you that are so adamant about zimmerman's innocence only knew what it was like to be in that situation. And I have, been in both, and had I been as ignorant as that murderer, my ignorance would have been no excuse.

Until you have experience with these situations it is impossible to explain why it really is easy to discern the truth of what happened.

and YES, I was not there, but I guarantee what I had said happened, and if you are honest about it and put aside your political, racial, and class beer goggles you too could discern the truth.

I wish I was part of the jury, but I wasn't



To be concerned of the fate of the world is not bad, but bearing false witness is to not be
Epiphileon
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 6:19:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,056
Neurons: 83,934
Neighborhood Watch, does not follow, nor confront, watch and report, that's it. Also I grew up in the inner city of Pittsburgh PA, I full well know what 17 y.o.s are capable off, hell my high school was closed by the national guard twice due to race riots in the 60's.
No one should have needed to order Zimmerman to not follow Trayvon, it is not the function of neighborhood watch.
Gang violence? Thuggery? He was walking home from a 7-11, alone. Mr. Zimmerman was acting like a predator stalking his prey. He had already decided that Trayvon was a punk, intending criminal action, when he could not possibly have known this.

Do I think he set out with the intention of killing Trayvon? No I don't think he did, I don't think he is guilty of murder, the manslaughter charge exists for cases where someone causes a death, that should not have happened and the person was in some way instrumental in it occurring.

Here's the thing, Mr. Zimmerman had performed his watch duty by reporting a suspicious character to the agency in place to deal with such things. Policeman are highly, and intensively trained, on how to deal with investigating suspicious persons. They identify themselves, they are a recognized authority, they do it in a calm, and non-belligerent way, none of this is true of how Mr. Zimmerman conducted himself that night. His inept following of Trayvon, understandably would raise the young mans anxiety level. Finally and only because, if he had let the police do their job, instead of overstepping his authority, Trayvon Martin would still be alive. Even if he had approached Trayvon straight forwardly, identified himself, and asked if Trayvon lived there, Trayvon would still be alive. Mr. Zimmerman brought about the death of Trayvon because of prejudice,(not racial), belligerence, as exhibited in the call to police, and his method of approach.
Finally as I said, I do not think he is guilty of murder, but it seems to me that a verdict of not guilty, is the same as saying the killing was justified, and that I would assert it was not. That, and only that, is the reason I think it was a sad day for justice.


Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
ithink140
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 6:44:09 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/4/2013
Posts: 2,453
Neurons: 17,922
It comes down to this, Epi: Why should we trust your judgment against a court of law? What makes you so certain you are right? Is not a little modesty needed here? This is how lynch mobs start... folk deciding they know best.

Yes, there can be, despite all the trappings of law, a miscarriage of justice, but one should always be careful of being certain that they know best.

My position is that after reading up on the evidence, none of which I can verify, I am left with doubts, but that is it.... I am not judge and jury or above the law. The law has taken its course, and there is a possible civil action.


'Life is too short to be eaten up by hate.'
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 6:46:48 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 14,381
Neurons: 44,783
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
I'd never heard of this either until the OP was put up, but then I went and read up on it from both sides.

I think that those of us who are not American will probably never be able to see that there are two sides to this story. No matter how we try. We live within different constructs with different laws and different interpretations of law.

Our pov would rest upon this, provided by Drago:-

"In Britain, if he had touched Martin in any way, he would be guilty of assault - even if he were a paid licensed security guard. He could inform him that the police were coming and ask him to wait.

If he had seen Martin do something illegal, he could have held him for the police, but would be responsible for Martin's safety during the wait."

Even outside of Britain, I've been a member of Neighborhood Watch in two different countries (one of which being, at the time, the most violent in the world)and that pretty much defines our role: we watch. It's cut and dried. The police have their job - we have ours and the penalties for either side crossing the line are laid down in black and white. Shades of grey don't come into it.

I'm not laying this down as a better/worse scenario - what I'm trying to say is it's a DIFFERENT scenario.

In another thread an American poster proffered what was obviously a sincere belief that there were areas of London that it would be "suicidal" to enter. At first I fell about laughing and was just going to let it go. But then I started thinking about it and realised that there is more than just a few tomayto/tomarto differences between countries. In America there is a lot of talk about 'The culture of violence'. In other places we discuss 'random acts of violence'. It made me realise too that this different way of looking at things concerns not just domestic concerns, but the way we all look at international relations too - a kind of variation of whether its the sword or the pen which is mightier.

I wonder if the fact that people obviously have very different views on this particular incident is not a microcosmic illustration of a huge gulf that exists - and has far more implications for the world if either particular viewpoint on this domestic incident becomes the dominant, global one?

So, Epi, in respect of your OP: yes, I can understand how your reaction is not one of youthful, pro-active certitude, but of reflective, wiser, sadness.




Epiphileon
Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 7:01:28 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,056
Neurons: 83,934
ithink140 wrote:
It comes down to this, Epi: Why should we trust your judgment against a court of law? What makes you so certain you are right? Is not a little modesty needed here? This is how lynch mobs start... folk deciding they know best.


Man Peter give it a rest, your presumptions outweigh you, I'm not asking anyone to trust my judgement, and your repeated calls for me to be more humble are ludicrous, as the evidence on this forum alone, shows that I am far more willing to change my mind about my own position, when countered by legitimate argument, than you have ever demonstrated.

The jury may have been right on, according to the letter of the law.

As I said, my clarified objection is that the verdict seems to indicate that this was a justified killing. That, as based on my argument above, I would continue to assert it most clearly was not. It should not have happened, and if Mr. Zimmerman had behaved more rationally it would not have.

Lynch mobs? Really, your capability to be inflammatory still manages to surprise me.


Question authority. How do you know, that you know, what you know?
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS
Forum Terms and Guidelines | Privacy policy | Copyright © 2008-2018 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.