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Does true love exist in this World? Options
witchcraft
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:30:50 PM
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I was thinking that whether the true heterosexual love did exist or it was a dream-like tale, especially in heterosexual marriage lives.
Chemistry, affinity, and affectation among conjugal couples and unmarried couples would be indispensable for affection latter turning into attachment and congeniality?
How would they be able to surmount tempting carnal limerence, in the meantime?

I'm just simply keen to figure them out as a love-starved man. Moreover, it seems that various members of this language forum have married as yet, who have probably gotten various sentiments on my query.

So, could you please tell me your opinions?
issamsaeed
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:02:02 PM
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for sure the true love exists and from my poin of view, to assess the degree of true love towrds you from the other you have to find out to what extent the other wishs you the best regardless of interests.
Rhondish
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:06:05 PM
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I absolutely believe true love exists. I found it and I let it slip right through my fingers. There is an incredible feeling when you are with a man and you are the only woman in the room. My problem was I was young, running a very successful restaurant in the city, and I became more involved with the social aspect of my job, leaving Ben alone far too often. I know it was true love because a big part of me still loves him. I have never had a similar connection with anyone. I am not crying over this, but I want you to know it does exist and if you have not found it keep looking. I knew Ben was the one, I was just too selfish at the time to work hard at making my job and my relationship work. Better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.
early_apex
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:14:47 PM
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witchcraft wrote:
I was thinking that whether the true love did exist or it was a dream-like tale, especially in marriage lives.

I'm just simply keen to figure it out as a love-starved man. Moreover, it seems that various members of this language forum have married as yet, who have probably gotten various sentiments on my query.

So, could you please tell me your opinions?


I would say yes. My wife and I just celebrated our 21st anniversary a week ago today. We both had been married before, but this has been better than either of us thought a married relationship could be.

No worries about things getting old or stale over the years. There are still things we are both trying to figure out about each other!Dancing
rluna
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 3:06:03 PM
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I'm waiting until I can read minds before I determine if true love is real. Think
Christine
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:13:25 PM
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OF COURSE!
TL Hobs
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:13:33 PM
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It's funny. I have been married for 21 years, too. But, it feels like 25 with the wind chill.
grammargeek
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:22:32 PM
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TL Hobs wrote:
It's funny. I have been married for 21 years, too. But, it feels like 25 with the wind chill.


You made me laugh. Thanks!
Rhondish
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:42:44 PM
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TL Hobs wrote:
It's funny. I have been married for 21 years, too. But, it feels like 25 with the wind chill.


Me too, and boy after this week, did I need it. Thank You!!!!
Rhondish
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:43:15 PM
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grammargeek wrote:
TL Hobs wrote:
It's funny. I have been married for 21 years, too. But, it feels like 25 with the wind chill.


You made me laugh. Thanks!


Me too, and boy after this week, did I need it. Thank You!!!!
Demosth
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:53:33 PM
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This is a bit of a subjective topic, so I am giving my subjective answer:

It seems that many people express love differently. Some people may become mean and aggressive in love, and others experience love as a warm and benevolent time. I always thought that the latter was the "normal" love experience, but for those of us who are married (or have been), this isn't always the case.

In any case, I think that marriage is complicated, and if you go into a marriage always expecting a certain behavior from your partner, it's sort of like shooting yourself in the foot. Of course, no one would willingly shoot themselves in the foot, so instead of being blinded by the intoxicating feeling of love, it would be wise to analyze your lover's behavior BEFORE getting too involved.


Some examples:

If you move in with someone you love, and you find that you often don't get along; is it wise to get married to this person? Probably not. Unless you have the strength and patience to work it out with them (but sadly, many people don't).

If you think someone loves you, and you ask them why they're acting strangely, do they give you excuses? For example, "I'm just nervous lately because I'm so busy." It's possible that they do like you, but they're afraid of something... so I would just leave these people alone. Don't let their fear bring you down. If you have to keep chasing after someone you love, it's probably because they don't love you.

Also, if you're attracted to someone who is known to be a liar, it's best to avoid them. Chances are they will lie to you about everything from "I love you" to "I do" -- just watch out. A lot of people use love to control other people. As it is a powerful emotion, it is highly misunderstood and often abused. Don't be afraid of it though, just keep an eye out for the abusers...


In my opinion, true love does exist; and actually, science has proven that it exists. [link] Apparently, a study was done on brain activity to show that some people who were married for 20 years or more had the same active parts of the brain that everyone experiences when they first fall in love. So, it's now science-fact, true love does exist for some lucky couples. As for being "love-starved", I just want to wish you the best. I think we all get our chance sooner or later.
milap4physio
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 6:58:08 PM
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its very subjective... differs from person to person, expectation level... person having less expectation might be very pleased even with the slightest act of affection or care, on the other hand person with very high expectation would spend one's whole life regretting that i could not find my true love though he or she might be having the perfect life partnerBoo hoo!
boyfriend might say " oh... my girlfriend is the best love i could have ever found", and few months later something goes wrong and they break up. He would find another girl after few months and would feel the same thing i.e. true love until one day when he comes to know that his girlfriend do not think that he is his true love... to sum up the examples " true love - SUBJECTIVE "Applause , i hope all of you (my friends) agree with meThink
Epiphileon
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:37:08 PM

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I think a number of the above posts point out the glaring problem with the original question, i.e. what is "true love".
I think Willey the Shake's sonnet on love is a great starting place, "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments..." OPPs what's this, "not admit impediments"? Well one might, I say might, say this means there is an inherent self deception going on. Or maybe not.

First Corinthians chapter thirteen speaks of divine love, and is an exquisite description of agape, however this love does not originate in the lover, but is a love that flows through them, it is not a love anyone but a deity is capable of generating. So one who is indwealt by the Holy Spirit may be able to feel all the things described, they are nevertheless merely a conduit for a love provided to them. In other words, calling this "true love" may be problematic.

Personally I think the concept of "true love" is not definable, period. However the descriptions in the above two cited references go a long way to defining an ideal, an ideal we call love.

Do ideals exist? If so can they ever be attained, or obtained?
I think, yes, I also think they can be obtained and lost again, when that happens it is nothing short of tragic. But I also agree with "to have loved and have lost, is better than to have never loved at all.


One more thing the notion of science "proving" that true love exists, is unmitigated hogwash, someone at MSN or whoever made up that headline ought to be subjected to reading every introductory text on the scientific method ever written.
Demosth
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:43:28 PM
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milap4physio wrote:
its very subjective... differs from person to person, expectation level... person having less expectation might be very pleased even with the slightest act of affection or care, on the other hand person with very high expectation would spend one's whole life regretting that i could not find my true love though he or she might be having the perfect life partner


It's true that some people easily go from partner to partner. Usually these people do have very high expectations. Or they are on the unfortunate end being the one who is rejected from the relationship because their partner has high expectations of them or is simply fed up with the idea of settling down with one person. It's not uncommon... some people just need variety in their lives. I just think it would be nice if they had known what they wanted BEFORE getting married, so the "D" word isn't fired off when they're not satisfied.

Many people seem to think of marriage as a contract to have power over another person. It's supposed to be an agreement to care for each other and to love each other. If it's all fight and no love, naturally, people will try to find peace somewhere else.

What one person thinks of as "the perfect life partner" may not necessarily be true for both people involved. Everything is not always so black and white; there is a gray area where different people can cooperate rationally. This was always my approach to love and relationships. What I've discovered is that many people are happy with either black or white... they can't even see the gray area. Imagine playing a game of chess with only gray pieces... it's pretty hard to have a battle, isn't it? In my mind, that's true love.

Anyway, I'm sort of going off on a tangent here, so I'll cut this short. To me, love is about accepting someone as they are. Not marrying them and then trying to mold them into your ideals for what a perfect partner should be like. That's all I wanted to say.
Demosth
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:23:18 PM
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Epiphileon wrote:
One more thing the notion of science "proving" that true love exists, is unmitigated hogwash, someone at MSN or whoever made up that headline ought to be subjected to reading every introductory text on the scientific method ever written.


I recently watched a program on the discovery channel that supported (and provided evidence) of the same study. Some examples were various animal species (such as swans, but I think their example was a type of burrowing animal) which stayed with the same partner their entire lives. They did brain scans on these animals and found a certain area of their brains to be active. The study checked the brain scans of humans who were in love and found the same areas to be active. Later in the show they introduced two people who had been married for 60 years and claimed to still be in love, and they checked their brain scans which provided the same evidence. People who were not in love showed no activity in that part of their brain.

If it isn't scientific to compare all the data before coming to a conclusion, then I don't know what is.
TYSON
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:56:55 PM
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True love may exist, however I'd be happy with just the regular kind. *sigh*

Both the same if you ask me. If it's love, it's love. If it is untrue, then it is not love.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:12:37 PM
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I have travelled and lived in so many different countries and places throughout my life that, throughout it, I have met, and got to know, hundreds of different people from all around the world. And with all that, I can say that I have only met three couples who seem to have found "true love". (Until a year ago I would have said "4 couples" but one has now split. Very Acrimoniously).

I tend to believe that some people think that heady, crazy, breathless experience of falling in love/lust is IT. I think that when that starts to wear off/calm down a little, they believe they are losing IT. We live in an era of adrenalin junkies and it seems to me that many people really do expect to live their entire lives in that heart-pounding, palm-sweating phase of initial attraction.

I also believe that some people, if told that True Love brings with it contentment, would not be interested anyway. Contentment seems to so many people to be a passive, beige-cardigan sort of feeling. What they are after is constant stimulation; euphoria on a daily basis. Many are just too impatient ever to let true love develop.

After a lot of observation and thought I also honestly conclude that some people are, themselves, incapable of true love. And it also seems to me that many people, married, divorced, sexually active...whatever, go through their entire lives never actually experiencing true love: though they would be disbelieving if told so. They mistake propinquity, liking, attraction, custom, mannerisms...all or any of a lot of different things for the real thing. After all, if you've never experienced it, you'll not be aware you're being short changed. I also tend to think these people are the cynics - the ones who construct clever arguments to prove that true love is a romantic ideal which they, as pragmatists, have unmasked.

Yeah, I believe that true, lasting, unselfish love exists. I just think it is very rare. We are all brought up to believe that everyone of us has the right to it and will find it...this is the part I don't believe.

I think it is a rare jewel, which very few ever find.
Christine
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:21:56 PM
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"I think it is a rare jewel, which very few ever find. " beautiful remark. Romany, you should write a poem.
Demosth
Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:48:30 PM
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Romany wrote:
I think it is a rare jewel, which very few ever find.


For some people, the love of the self is true love, all the same.

I defend love, not as an ideal, but as something that truly exists in the world.
If I didn't, it would be like saying people only get together to make babies...
Angel-Baby
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 1:49:33 AM
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To answer the question: I don't know. I would like to believe the idea of "true love" possible on some level. However, when it comes to Cinderella-style happily ever after I'm a bit more skeptical. I think it gives the illusion that everything is going to be sunshine and roses all the time, when reality could not be further from the truth. Like anything worthwhile, love takes commitment, time and a lot of hard work.

But I've never been "in love", so what would I know. I have loved and been loved passionately, platonicly, parentally, but that can-see-the-future-in-their-eyes love is something I haven't been fortunate to know. I do think it could be the most wonderful thing to experience and at the same time the most devastating. But then if it couldn't tear you to pieces if it were lost, would it be worth having/ experiencing in the first place?
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 2:29:57 AM
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Epi postedFirst Corinthians chapter thirteen speaks of divine love, and is an exquisite description of agape, however this [/b]]love does not originate in the lover[/b], but is a love that flows through them, it is not a love anyone but a deity is capable of generating. So one who is indwealt by the Holy Spirit may be able to feel all the things described, they are nevertheless merely a conduit for a love provided to them. In other words, calling this "true love" may be problematic.

Peter respondedHello Kevin.

Actually that is not right. Paul uses the word agape in Corinthians 13 and is defining the love Christians must and can display. Jesus said 'You must love..agape... god with all your heart soul strength and mind.' Of course human can display this ...agape love... since they were created in the likeness of God...his qualities of Love...agape...justice wisdom and power. Agape love is always based on what is right and can also carry with it affection 'The father has affection for the son.' Peter said 'have intense love...agape ...for one another.'

An atheist can display such love. He can give his life for another...that is agape love...unselfish.
It is an act of pure love without thought of gain. Yes the fruits of God's spirit will enhance these latent, or undeveloped, qualities. But the love originates in the individual, since man was created with that capability.
'No greater love has a man than that he give his life for another'.

Witchcraft is referring to love between the sexes with a view to forming a lasting relationship. We know what she means and in her context that can be called truelove. A love where each loves the other unselfishly.

The ancient greeks had four words for love.

Storge= Love for family

Philia= love or affection for friends

Eros= erotic love (Modern greek allows for just love between the sexes and not necesarily sexual)

Agape= Love based on principle...but can carry affection too

In answer to witchcrafts question I would say yes.
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:33:16 AM

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Demosth wrote:
[quote=Epiphileon]
If it isn't scientific to compare all the data before coming to a conclusion, then I don't know what is.

No Desmoth, science cannot address true love, it is an ideal, and as you can see from many of these posts, arbitrarily defined. Science can measure brain activity in mating mammals and say this brain activity is the same over time in mammals that mate for life, but it can not say "this is love". Do you really think a swan or a burrowing animal has the ability to experience anything like what humans call love?
The other problem is using the word "prove" in other than mathematics, is a real problem. If I conduct an experiment on the effect of caffeine on discrimination learning in rats. And the caffeinated rats actually demonstrate a significantly better learning curve, then all I can say is that caffeine did not have, no effect on learning in rats.
It's called rejecting the null hypothesis.
Science can not experimentally deal with what it can not define in the manner that study did. All that study says is that the same areas of the brain are active that it sees in animals that mate for life.
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:47:47 AM

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peterhewett wrote:
Epi postedFirst Corinthians chapter thirteen speaks of divine love, and is an exquisite description of agape, however this [/b]]love does not originate in the lover[/b], but is a love that flows through them, it is not a love anyone but a deity is capable of generating. So one who is indwealt by the Holy Spirit may be able to feel all the things described, they are nevertheless merely a conduit for a love provided to them. In other words, calling this "true love" may be problematic.

Peter respondedHello Kevin.

Actually that is not right. Paul uses the word agape in Corinthians 13 and is defining the love Christians must and can display. Jesus said 'You must love..agape... god with all your heart soul strength and mind.' Of course human can display this ...agape love... since they were created in the likeness of God...his qualities of Love...agape...justice wisdom and power. agape love is always based on what is right and can also carry with it affection 'The father has affection for the son.' Agape is a quote that carries with it affection. Peter said 'have intense love...agape ...for one another.'


Well Peter, it is most likely that we have a different view of Biblical Doctrine, I do "now" that agape is demonstrable by people, whether born again or not. I do think that the Bible teaches the total depravity of man, that man is saved only by the unmerited favor of God, that without God, all mans deeds are as filthy rags, and that only through the indwelling of the spirit could man be capable of agape. But then Peter, I was kind of a severe Christian. Biblical Inerrancy, Security of the believer, total depravity, you might say I leaned heavily towards Calvanism, in a number of respects.

But there is also this, I may have been amusing, at least myself, with those first two comparisons. I really don't think Shakespeare meant the first line as I interpreted it either.
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:04:26 AM
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epi. The Good Samaritan in Jesus illustration, a non-believer outside both those in the Law covenant and what would become Christianity showed Agape love. We are made in the image of God and the bible shows that at times those outside of God's arrangement can put to shame those that make the claim they are in it. The Pharisees and Saducees considered they were a part of God's arrangement, and indeed were bound by the Law of Moses. Yet one of them passed by the robbed man.

In the Greek Septuagint, in Koine Greek, the word for agape is used many times in the Hebrew or Old Testament. It was known long before the advent of Christianity and the Christian Greek Scripture or New Testament.
Cathie8653
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 7:06:40 AM
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witchcraft wrote:
I was thinking that whether the true love did exist or it was a dream-like tale, especially in marriage lives.

I'm just simply keen to figure it out as a love-starved man. Moreover, it seems that various members of this language forum have married as yet, who have probably gotten various sentiments on my query.

So, could you please tell me your opinions?


As in my last post - on a different topic - it is absolutely subjective. I was very married for 35years, some excellent, some good and some not so good.

I think your definition of 'true love' is what is needed - before comments can be made about whether 'it' exists. To my way of thinking - there is no doubt that 'true completely altruistic love(tcal)' exists between mothers and their children (in general) - ok we all know about the 'kooks'. I am also of the mind that within a relationship one should strive after tcal - but that is far harder given that we are taking on another person with all their foibles (Sp?) and quirks.

My own definition of true love - is that 'one's overriding drive is to ensure that the object of one's love is supported to attain the very best for their happiness.' Strangely this can, at times, require the letting go of a child, friend or partner for their own best interest.
early_apex
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:34:07 AM
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peterhewett wrote:


epi. The Good Samaritan in Jesus illustration, a non-believer outside both those in the Law covenant and what would become Christianity showed Agape love. We are made in the image of God and the bible shows that at times those outside of God's arrangement can put to shame those that make the claim they are in it. The Pharisees and Saducees considered they were a part of God's arrangement, and indeed were bound by the Law of Moses. Yet one of them passed by the robbed man.

In the Greek Septuagint, in Koine Greek, the word for agape is used many times in the Hebrew or Old Testament. It was known long before the advent of Christianity and the Christian Greek Scripture or New Testament.


Sorry, Peter, I am convinced that Epiphileon has it right. You are confusing acts of kindness with true love. The parable of the good Samaritan was not about who loved the wounded victim, but who was the good neighbor. Yes, his deeds were acts of love, but acts of love are merely our feeble attempts to show kindness. Jesus told us to love one another; he also told us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. These statements were constructed to lead us away from self-sufficiency, which says, "I will just do what Jesus said to do and then I will be fine", and into grace, which recognizes our need for God's mercy. I wasn't going to start off with this with witchcraft, but there is only one true love, and that is God's love. We who have found some measure of love in this world of woe are recipients of his overflow, whether we recognize it or not.

For those who believe the Bible, the Bible says "God is love". It is clearly difficult to understand the nature of love without believing this.
peterhewett
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:49:35 AM
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No... I am not wrong. I have a made a study of the use of agape love, and it is very possible to show it, apart fron the operation of God's spirit. I am not mistaken. I know how the word is used and what agape love is. The Samaritan displayed agape love for sure...unselfish love with no thought of gain is was far more than kindness.
Quote

agape Greek noun meaning ‘love’ not much used in secular writings but common in the NT for the gracious selfgiving love of God shown in Christ; and correspondingly of unselfish human love (1 Cor. 13: 4).

Every time Paul use the expression love in Corinthians 13 he use agape.
Love (agape) is long suffering and kind...love (agape) is not jealous
does not brag... does not get puffed up...does not look for its own interests...does not keep account of injury etc. All humans can in some measure show this kind of love.


Of course the four qualities of love justice wisdom and power are all enhanced by the operation of God's spirit. But there is no question but that agape ...unselfish love...can be displayed by anyone including, atheists and agnostics. Of course God originated love, all love...but he also gifted his creatures, humans, with it...they were made in his image in the likeness of his qualities.

The greatest display of agape is in the gift of God's son and in doing so recommended his own love.

Now that is it, or else witchraft will be angry for us spoilng his post.

cat_cut
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:22:38 AM
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It's true for those who believe. Same as the question if God really exists. ^^
witchcraft
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 9:35:09 AM
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peterhewett wrote:


Now that is it, or else witchraft will be angry for us spoilng his post.


Quote:
Nope, Peterhewett. I'm actually avid for perusing you three's fascinating posts on account of you three demystifying the love derived from or associated with the Cannon and Christian doctrine which have been abstruse and slight doctrinaire for me.

After all, I'm basically agnostic. So, go on!
risadr
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 11:14:38 AM
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witchcraft wrote:
I was thinking that whether the true heterosexual love did exist or it was a dream-like tale, especially in heterosexual marriage lives.
Chemistry, affinity, and affectation among conjugal couples and unmarried couples would be indispensable for latter turning into attachment and congeniality?

I'm just simply keen to figure it out as a love-starved man. Moreover, it seems that various members of this language forum have married as yet, who have probably gotten various sentiments on my query.

So, could you please tell me your opinions?


Does true love exist? Absolutely.
Does everyone find it? No.

In my life, to this point, I have thought that I was in love many times (more than any one person my age should be allowed). Now, I know that I am in love, and every other feeling I have ever mistaken for love in the past absolutely pales in comparison. I wish that there was an adequate way for me to describe this feeling, but there's really not. I just thank my lucky stars that I have been fortunate enough to find the person who completes me so wholly and perfectly, and at such a relatively young age.

I do agree with the point that most people (or most Americans, anyway) have a tendency to mistake lust and affection for love. I think that is a large contributing factor to the high divorce rate in the US.
LeadPal
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 4:17:15 PM
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Does true love exist? No. Love is passion and affection taken to their maximum, purely instinctual and hormonal, and the feeling retains its significance for only so long as it's maintained. Love is certainly an incredible, wonderful feeling, and worth holding onto indefinitely, but it is never absolute.

That must sound spectacularly cold, but the view has its benefits. It suggests that nearly any relationship, worked on sufficiently, can be successful. Divorces don't happen because the partners were never "truly" in love, they happen because they allowed their ordinary love to rot away over time.
TB
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 5:00:35 PM
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LeadPal wrote:
Does true love exist? No. Love is passion and affection taken to their maximum, purely instinctual and hormonal, .



When you become a parent you will understand pure, true love.
cleopatra clover
Posted: Friday, August 21, 2009 6:05:04 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/2009
Posts: 324
Neurons: 999
Location: Malaysia
LeadPal wrote...

Love is certainly an incredible, wonderful feeling, and worth holding onto indefinitely, but it is never
absolute.


Yes, I agree with you...love certainly is an incredible, wonderful feeling and it is worth holding onto indefinitely. True love exists...with trust, care, affection, commitments...equally from both.



Demosth
Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:58:48 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/15/2009
Posts: 67
Neurons: 190
Location: United States
Epiphileon wrote:
Do you really think a swan or a burrowing animal has the ability to experience anything like what humans call love?


Do you really have any evidence to suggest that it doesn't?
Unless, of course, you consider yourself to be one of the two...

Before you get defensive simply for the sake of argument, think about what you're saying next time. No one is attacking you for not believing in something that you either haven't experienced or have simply chosen to ignore. After all, someone must have loved you or one of your parents, or you wouldn't be here arguing against the existence of something you see every day...

Or is it more serious... loved and lost, was it? I won't go there. Shhh
risadr
Posted: Sunday, August 23, 2009 1:13:13 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/16/2009
Posts: 1,155
Neurons: 3,545
Location: PA, United States
TB wrote:
LeadPal wrote:
Does true love exist? No. Love is passion and affection taken to their maximum, purely instinctual and hormonal, .



When you become a parent you will understand pure, true love.


Seconded.
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