The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Obama's speech to black church Options
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 9:26:37 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
I have always had a high regard for Barack Obama and was delighted when the American people
set aside their racial prejudices and elected him to office. I said as much in the pages of
this forum. After listening to and watching a video on Daily Caller my view of him is somewhat
dented.

If you listen to his words in full the speech comes across as divisive on race, and he adopts
in his manner a much more African American mode of expression.

I did not like his presentation at all, and it came as a surprise to me.

ADDED: If the word 'white' were subsituted for 'black' in this speech a cry of racism would have rung out.

The Obama's urge black voters to get out and bring in the vote, what would be said if a white candidate urged whites to get out and bring in the vote?



Have I misunderstood this matter?

pedro
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 9:50:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 13,057
Neurons: 63,022
I haven't heard the speech but he pays attention to his advisors and tailors his words to his audience. He is first and foremost a politician and caution should be exercised when listening to his words. He has defaulted on a number of promises, the closure of Guantanamo Bay being one glaring one.
Yakcal
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:14:47 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/1/2011
Posts: 583
Neurons: 28,026
Location: Trinidad, California, United States
No percivalpecksniff, you haven't misunderstood. That seems to be the pattern that Mr. Obama displays himself.

Your astute observation that substituting white for black in the talk you heard is one I wish that our more liberal friends would pay heed to, but for them, Mr. Obama can say or do no wrong.

If you would like to have your eyes opened even further, you can play the game where you imagine a Republican in the Oval Office doing and saying the things that Mr. Obama has done and said and imagine how the mainstream media (MSM) would report it. Examples would be the non-action taking place after the very recent embassy attack, or even how much time this president spends playing golf, or how he has stopped attending foreign service intel meetings, or how he doesn't meet and talk to foreign dignitaries but finds the time to drop in on The View to chat up the ladies that host that show.

Mr. Obama is loved by the MSM and like the regular liberals, he can do no wrong.

While I didn't vote for Mr. Obama, I was more than willing to give him a chance once he was elected. Being a minority myself, I thought was a nice difference, but I never did see what the junior senator from Illinois brought to the table that made him so adored by the press. I've come to believe that it was just because he was different from the rest of the democrats running for the office.

And yes, there are just a few campaign promises that he made that he hasn't followed through on, but you won't read about that in our MSM.

I am looking forward to the election so all this 'to do' can be over.

When Mr. Obama began his term of office gasoline, petrol to you, was $1.80 a gallon and now it's $4 and change where I am in California right now. So I feel that I am not better off now than when he was elected.
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:19:28 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
Would you please give us a link to the video, or more detail about the date and location where he made such comments?

I do not doubt that you heard what you heard. I would like to hear it so that I could form my opinion from evidence.

leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:37:18 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
Yakcal wrote:

When Mr. Obama began his term of office gasoline, petrol to you, was $1.80 a gallon and now it's $4 and change where I am in California right now. So I feel that I am not better off now than when he was elected.


http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/01/us-gas-pricesja.html
boneyfriend
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:54:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/3/2009
Posts: 2,625
Neurons: 10,546
Location: Columbia, South Carolina, United States
Percy, the part of the speech that I remember was his talking about Hurricane Katrina. It took days for help to get to those devestated by the storm in New Orleans. I feel sure that if that storm had wrecked Darian Connecticut (a white well heeled town in the northeast), that help would have been forthcoming. Mr. Bush really goofed on this one. I would run to the TV every morning during the aftermath and for days no help had come. I couldn't believe it at the time.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:02:55 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Just for you Leon. I am not wanting to make an issue of race, since it means nothing to me but I was struck by this.

It is not just his speech but that his wife urged 'black' voters out instead of 'voters.' Any white politian urging whites to get out and vote or bring in the vote would immediately be called a racist.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9583221/US-election-Barack-Obama-accused-of-racially-charged-rhetoric.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-v7_7Pb9U

The 'we' in her speech is black people. It is an appeal based on race. The other folks are the 'whites.' It is a them against us type of appeal.

I am not, by the way, banging the republican drum... it is merely an observation.




pedro
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:09:16 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 13,057
Neurons: 63,022
The speech was in 2007 which might explain a lot.
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:13:12 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
boneyfriend wrote:
Percy, the part of the speech that I remember was his talking about Hurricane Katrina. It took days for help to get to those devestated by the storm in New Orleans. I feel sure that if that storm had wrecked Darian Connecticut (a white well heeled town in the northeast), that help would have been forthcoming. Mr. Bush really goofed on this one. I would run to the TV every morning during the aftermath and for days no help had come. I couldn't believe it at the time.


Didn't that take place in 2005?
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:32:00 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Just for you Leon. I am not wanting to make an issue of race, since it means nothing to me but I was struck by this.

It is not just his speech but that his wife urged 'black' voters out instead of 'voters.' Any white politian urging whites to get out and vote or bring in the vote would immediately be called a racist.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9583221/US-election-Barack-Obama-accused-of-racially-charged-rhetoric.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc-v7_7Pb9U

The 'we' in her speech is black people. It is an appeal based on race. The other folks are the 'whites.' It is a them against us type of appeal.

I am not, by the way, banging the republican drum... it is merely an observation.


Patent racialist sheep dip.

Michelle Obama said nothing about "us versus them," except to demonize those who would despair of having their voices heard.

"Get out the vote" is a message heard in every organization that has the wit to comprehend the significance of the electoral process.

percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:38:16 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Are you terming me a racist Leon? Racial sheepdip? So any enquiry or point of view is a racial sheepdip is it? I am against racisim whatever form it takes white on white and black on black, as well as white on black and black on white. The race war in Yugoslavia was white on white and Pakistani's and Bangledeshi's do not like each other and so on...

No president is above criticism is he? Unless, that is one slavishly tows the party line and sets aside the use of their mind.

I qoute you these words: It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle.

You are wrong. Listen with your better ear and you will see that it is not an appeal to American people, but to 'her own kind.' The implication is that black voters should get out and vote for Obama because he is black.

She is making a division, as does her husband... you are not adressing my comments, but rather rushing to a conclusion.


PS.
I am not anti-Obama
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:51:55 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Are you terming me a racist Leon? Racial sheepdip? So any enquiry or point of view is a racial sheepdip is it?

I qoute you these words: It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle.

You are wrong. Listen with your better ear and you will seee that it is not an appeal to American people, but to 'her own kind.' The implication is that black voters should get out and vote for Obama because he is black.

She is making a division, as does her husband... you are not adressing my comments but rather rushing to a conclusion.


Bullshit.

Is that plain enough for you?

The reportage is patent racialist sheep dip.

But if the shoe fits, then wear it proudly.

These are events that occurred and were reviewed five years ago. They were found to be benign then. Why are they brought to our attention once again?

She is not making a division, she is addressing an audience.

And I quote you these words, which you might recognize:

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:03:13 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
You show your true colours Leon, and your rudeness and unwillingness to discuss with reason.

You ask why raise it now. Simply put, it is new to me, and yes it is 2005 and 2007. I logged on to the UK Daily
Telegraph and saw the article there in todays paper.... satisfied?

What is going on in your mind that you react with such violence?


So you quote 'evil to him who evil thinks,' do you?

Firstly I am not thinking evil... and I am up for a polite and reasoned discussion. I am putting forth a reasoned point of view, which you in your angst cannot bring yourself to think upon. Why?

Is this the way you react to those who differ from you? I detect shades of your spat with Miss Behave which she roundly won.


Just as you season ducks with salt so your words need to be seasoned.
Seeker
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:27:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/2009
Posts: 258
Neurons: 1,715
It has been my experience - and I am a senior citizen - that when anyone is among people of their own family or race, the language and the words used are different than when in mixed racial groups. Each race has words, phrases, nicknames, and expressions that they use only among themselves. I believe that to be the case in both situations stated above involving President and Mrs. Obama.

Also, at this time, the GOP is trying to suppress the black vote, along with the votes of other minorities, college students and seniors, in an effort to secure a Romney win. That is reminiscent of the "poll tax" before Civil Rights was enacted. They have even gone so far as to take legal actions in several states to do so. They themselves have bragged that doing so will produce a Republican win.

IMHO, what we should be focused on is first, the many accomplishments of President Obama. There were many 'promises' he made which he has been unable to keep as yet. Bear in mind the planned and carried out obstruction by the GOP/TeaParty. Remember too, that it has taken many, many years, most recently the eight of the previous administration, to drive the country into the ditch. It should be obvious that it will take more than four years to pull us back. In the meantime, we are better off than we were four years ago. Tampa Bay's PolitiFact has a handy meter that tracks the Obama progress: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

Second - Do we really want the GOP/TeaParty in the White House based on past performance? Based on their lack of concern for minorities, students, seniors - actually, any of the 99% in general. Watch their videos - both Romney and Ryan have them, and then see how you feel about having them in the W.H. They constantly put their feet in their mouths and they do it in public as well as in foreign countries. And what about the people who are financing their campaigns with unbelievable amounts of money. Why? What are they asking for in return?

I believe we are better off than 4 years ago and I am confident in giving President Obama another four years.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:33:46 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
I understand your point of view, Seeker, and I too think he is a decent man trying to do his best... but no one is above criticism are they?

I speak as I find and have never towed any party line, either in my own land or another's.

I have long held the view that once one attaches oneself to a particular party, or places too much emphasis on race for that matter the one is in danger losing objectivity.


Your point about the inequality of the use of money is a good one. I think the limit in the UK is £250,000 ( $402,00o) but I stand to be corrected.

At least you put your point of view with reason and politeness.
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:35:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
percivalpecksniff wrote:
You show your true colours Leon, and your rudeness and unwillingness to discuss with reason.

You ask why raise it now. Simply put, it is new to me, and yes it is 2005 and 2007. I logged on to the UK Daily
Telegraph and saw the article there in todays paper.... satisfied?


Which is your first clue that you are gormlessly out of touch with American politics…satisfied?

percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:37:44 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Leon, do you have any manners my friend? Reading between the lines I think I understand your problem. One treats a child as a child.

leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:49:23 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/2011
Posts: 8,589
Neurons: 30,816
Location: Miami, Florida, United States
percivalpecksniff wrote:
One treats a child as a child.



Indeed.
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 1:32:20 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 5,408
Neurons: 87,618
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
I believe this was on the news this morning. I don't know where the link is or why this came up now, though I suspect one of the PACs supporting the Republicans has mounted the attack. The speech was from 2007 and was speaking, in part, about the disparity of response between New York (September 11th) and New Orleans (hurricane Katrina).

I find it facile of people to complain about speeches being tailored to an audience. This was a public speech. While given before a specific audience, the expectation was certainly that it would be available to all. It seems to me more honest when it is done as a part of any public speech than when such tailoring is hidden behind closed doors.

As far as the other vague accusations here:

". . . you can play the game where you imagine a Republican in the Oval Office doing and saying the things that Mr. Obama has done and said and imagine how the mainstream media (MSM) would report it." Please provide specific examples of what president Obama is saying which would get a Republican in trouble.

". . . the non-action taking place after the very recent embassy attack . . ." I seem to recall quite a bit of action, from moving security to sending FBI investigators. Please elucidate what was not done that you feel should have been done. Please explain why the president, personally, rather than the foreign service itself bears day-to-day responsibility for security. Are you saying the president should micro-manage all federal departments?

". . . or even how much time this president spends playing golf . . ." There have been many reports of Mr. Obama's golf-playing in the news (mainstream media). Anyone have any hard numbers on the amount of time on golf vs. president Bush's time riding the range on his ranch? All presidents spend time on recreation; to accuse one of dereliction of duty requires something more than regular golf games. As far as I can see, he is tending to his duties, as did president Bush, despite Mr. Bush's many vacations.

". . . how he has stopped attending foreign service intel meetings. . . I believe this was a Crossroads (PAC) television ad, further promoted in Washington Post: Obama intelligence meeting attendance op-ed piece by Marc Thiessen (mainstream medium, the Post is). The story compares president Obama's attendance with president Bush's attendance.

Here is a follow-up, also in the (mainstream medium) Washington Post WP fact check Glen Kessler: Obama security briefings. Scroll down to the part about the CIA history on security briefings to note there have been many different styles of security briefing.

And, just so we don't think the (mainstream medium) Washington Post is biased because of this fact-check, they also published a follow-up rebuttal by Mr. Thiessen: WP Thiessen: Rebuttal

"When Mr. Obama began his term of office gasoline, petrol to you, was $1.80 a gallon and now it's $4 and change where I am. . ." Yes, when Mr. Obama took office in January, 2009 average U.S. gas price was $1.85/gallon. This, however, ignores the fact that in July 2008 the average U.S. price was $4.11/gallon. Following the September 2008 real estate collapse, banking collapse, market collapse, . . . gasoline prices collapsed.

Collapse was initially due to severely decreased industrial/commercial demand (fortuitous, given the cold winter; kept heating-oil prices lower than otherwise). This was followed by a reduction in retail demand, as people laid off by all those collapsed industries severely reduced their driving. US Energy Information: gasoline prices 1993-2012.

What we see now indicates the recovering economy and returns us to the prices prior to the collapse unless, of course, one wishes to posit profit-taking by the oil companies.

Political ads and the subsequent reportage thereon are a poor basis for discussion. (This includes the ads run by the Democratic-supporting PACs.)
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 2:08:11 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
RuthP. I do not claim to be an expert on American politics and am only commenting from a narrow viewpoint which I think, no matter how old the speech, to be a legitimate point.

As far as I am aware you may well be right in what you say on other matters.


I think the real point is we should be willing to conceive that our chosen champion is not always right, and be prepared to admit this when it occurs.

I am in no way a racist, as our dear Leon implies, but am merely putting forward a point of view for others to consider.


I do not think anyone in their right mind would wish for a leader to fail if the cause is good...
except those who blindly follow a path, regardless.
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 4:34:52 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/2/2009
Posts: 5,408
Neurons: 87,618
Location: Drain, Oregon, United States
Then-senator Obama was speaking to the congregation of a black church. It would scarcely have made sense to push a get-out-the-Hispanic-vote or a get-out-the-white-vote or a get-out-the-Asian-American-vote given his audience. One pushes one's audience to do their civic duty, so I fail to understand the presumptive point.

I support candidates, not 'champions' and am unsure whence 'champions'. I have yet to find a candidate who toes my line exactly. Nor have I discovered a human being who is always right. Politicians are humans; no better (or worse) than others, on average. Were we to wait for perfection, we'd be paralyzed. I very much suspect that the vast majority of the voters, on both sides of the aisle, are voting as do I: for the best choice available. We simply disagree on who that choice is.
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 5:21:41 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Yakcal,

You are blaming Obama for gas prices? He has no control over that.

I do not know which State you are in but I vaguely recall gas in FL being over $4.00 a gallon in 2008.

http://geography.about.com/od/globalproblemsandissues/a/gasoline.htm

Quote from this website -

"Gasoline prices in the United States have climbed steeply over the past few years. Gas was near $1 a gallon a decade ago. It took six years for the price to double to $2 a gallon in 2004. Four years later, in June 2008, gas prices have doubled once again to over $4 a gallon."

So between 1998 and 2008 it went from $1.00 to $4.00 according to this website. Who was in charge then, although that does not matter. The price of oil is not set by the States. And it is still at $4.00?
::::
You are lucky it is only $4.00 gallon. Check some European prices! Ontario gas is $1.35 a liter which translates to $5.13 a US gallon, taking the differing sizes into account.

And maybe higher gas prices are good for the environment as we used less there for a while because of the prices, but then the novelty wore off.

Edit : I missed that you are from California so I googled prices for 2008 and got the following website that says it was regional and actually hit $4.70 at one point. This is posted on a forum so it is anecdotal.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090104164412AArXhvb

Second edit : I should have read the whole thread before commenting, as Ruth explains what happened. (Funny how we all have selective memories, me included.)


Listening . . .
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 5:25:46 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2011
Posts: 964
Neurons: 3,950
Percivalpecksniff, I completely appreciate your point and your perspective. I am also someone who does not see race. If I were to give a speech to a group of white/black/latino/mexican or any other Americans, I would not invoke them to go vote as white/black/latino/mexican . . . I would encourage them to make their vote count as AMERICANS.
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:03:21 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Ah Percival,

You fell into the trap very nicely. You see, it is the debates tonight and I have not heard what the Democrats said to attack Romney beforehand but I am sure there is something floating around out there. Both sides have 'hangers-on' who think they are helping by dragging up any old speech or comment they can find to try to disparage the opponent. It is all dirty politics. And it only DETRACTS from the real issues.

You say you are not a racist. I do not know you so I will take you at your word. But you accuse Obama and his wife of being ones with no evidence. I heard a bit of his speech and it was perfectly fine to tell them to get the lead out and go help the victims of Katrina who were mostly black. Cancun had an even more devastating hurricane shortly after Katrina. It sat over the city for sixty hours - that is right - 60 hours and took out ALL the infrastructure.The Mexicans did not play politics, federal versus state etc., but got the help there immediately. And every able man, woman, and child, regardless of occupation, was on the streets cleaning up. They all worked together as a country and we could not believe what they had accomplished in just three months. And they are a poor country.

I just watched the YouTube video of Michelle's speech TWICE and if you heard her tell black people to get out and vote, you have better ears than mine. I urged everyone on the forum in another thread to get out and vote. Because I am Caucasian did I tell just all white people to get out and vote? How do you know there was not a single white person in her audience? I could picture her talking to me.

One can always twist words to make them seem to be the way one wants, same as with statistics. Do you really think seasoned politicians who by the color of their skin are very aware of racism would pull the racist card? I do not think so. I will believe it when you post Obama's entire speech and I read it for myself. (Even then, with the history of treatment of the black person around the world in his background, I would give him a pass.)

If this is the best they can find, the Republicans are in trouble. I guess the Muslim and birth certificate bits have lost their steam. LOL
Edit : Oh yes. I see pps's reiteration of his points and I had forgotten the minister accusation. :-)
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:24:22 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Quote Yakcal -

"or how he doesn't meet and talk to foreign dignitaries but finds the time to drop in on The View to chat up the ladies that host that show."

Obama was in the city on business, and taped the show at his convenience. I think they said something about the UN meeting? I forget why he was there but he worked an hour of TV into his busy schedule.

It was smart to talk to the ladies. They asked some hard questions about the deficit and jobs etc and he performed admirably.

Romney has been invited several times but wrote it off as the women are too "'sharp-tongued' and only one of them is a Republican". I know one is definitely a sharp tongued Republican, one I know is Democrat, one I suspect is Democrat, one I have no idea what she is, and Barbara Walters is a newsperson who never takes sides. Besides, if Romney can't handle five polite women, how will he ever handle foreign countries?
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:35:42 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
You said RuthP: so I fail to understand the presumptive

The presumptive point/s are that one Mrs Obama urged black voters to get out to secure the election... meaning that she expected them to vote on race rather than the issues... EG a black vote is an Obama vote. That implies they do not have a mind of their own.

Two. President Obama made an issue of race and continues to give full support to the racist minister of his church. If you listen to his rhetoric and tone it is plain.

I think Obama is trying his best, but he is not above criticism is he?

I think that despite my opinion I would, if an American or if was was prone to voting which I am not, nevertheless vote for the lesser of two evils...namely Obama
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:39:22 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:39:47 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
So Hope, what trap is it that I am supposed to have fallen in to? I sm not such a fool that I
do not know that both side engage in politicing.

I remarked on the article and video on their merits, not in response to prejudice my friend.

I have never voted in an election in my life and have never allied myself to one party or another.

I find it easier to be honest that way. One very obvious thing about American politics is its polarisation and rabid prejudice. The failure to acknowledge good done by the opposing side is nothing short of idiotic and senseless. One gives ones mind over to an ideal and slavishly ignores the facts.

Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:42:32 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If you never vote, you can never complain, either.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:47:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Who is complaining my dear Hope? I for my part am merely commenting.It is the
respondees who are getting hot under the collar... and it amuses me.

Your choice of language is perjorative. Besides which you are in error. I pay my taxes do I not?

You said Hope: I just watched the YouTube video of Michelle's speech TWICE and if you heard her tell black people to get out and vote, you have better ears than mine unquote.

It seems I do indeed have superior ears to you. Open them once more if you please. Her address was to black churchgoers… a black audience. The implication is obvious. The others are whites the we are blacks.


LostinSC
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 7:42:48 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/2012
Posts: 400
Neurons: 1,328
Percy, Hope 2 has a point.

"If you never vote, you can never complain, either."

However, she omits a very important 1st amendment to the US Constitutuion. (Offered to legal and illegal immigrants who step foot on this soil of hope and freedom).


"You are entitled to your opinion and freedom of speech, my friend."

The US flag can be burned the streets of Dearborn, MI and it is an expression of freedom of speech. The US flag can be burned, stomped upon, spat upon and desacralised around the world and the owners of that proud flag are to expected to accept this as normal.

That is not an expression of free speech. That is an expression of hatred for America.

Which would you silence? Which would any of us silence?

Free expression or hatred?

I'm waiting...!!
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 7:51:37 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Lost, how would you set about silencing hatred or even expressions of hatred?

Freedom of speech brings with it responsibility. There is no such thing as total freedom.

You recall the old illustration? If you go into a theatre and shout fire, when there is no fire, and there is a stampede where folk are trampled to death you will feel the full weight of the law for abuse of the freedom of speech.

Freedom, of necessity is enshrined in law. Law gives freedom ... freedom of movement for example. Like obeying which side of the road to drive on...if you ignore that law one way or another you will either lose your life ... freedom of travel or freedom to do as you want with your life by ending up in prison.

I believe there are times when folk have to be brought to account for what they utter...but I acknowledge it is s thorny problem as to where you draw the line. Some things are clear, others are in a grey are and threaten the idea of free speech.

If one pays one's taxes one has a right to call to book those who spend that revenue, whether one votes or does not vote. Hope's point is not a valid one at all.

Yes you are right; burning the flag is a hatred of a country and its people. I don't advocate such things.

Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:17:31 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/2/2009
Posts: 11,101
Neurons: 39,933
Location: Booligal, New South Wales, Australia
1 Hour to go down here!

They are pulling up old footage right back to the 80's, its getting dirty.

ps. Our petrol is $1.60 per litre so that would be $6.45 per gallon, you are getting a good buy.
Hope2
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:20:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/6/2012
Posts: 4,907
Neurons: 16,769
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Percy,

Quote Percy -
"Who is complaining my dear Hope?"


You just proved my point. YOU made the implication that because the audience was (mostly?) black that that is what SHE was saying. If white people were there, did they feel excluded? Besides which, have you ever given a speech and not chosen what to say based on your audience?

People hear and read into what they either want to hear and see, or what they are afraid they heard and saw.

No where did I say or imply that you were complaining because i knew you couldn't be as you are not an American who can vote.

But that is what you read because you were expecting me to criticize you. And then you attacked me by using the word 'pejorative', a word I sensibly ignored. So that is how arguments start.

What I did was write a well known expression using the impersonal you. But if you want to make it personal, take it as advice for the future when your own politicians do something you do not like and you did not try to get someone else in office. (Not sure how freedom of speech got into this.) I merely jotted down a saying as I went off merrily to bake an open-faced Dutch Apple Pie from my Mom's recipe book. And it was yummy! And my husband was appreciative and said 'He wished I would learn to cook'. Lol
Klaas V
Posted: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:23:53 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/12/2010
Posts: 1,339
Neurons: 4,802
Weird such an argument as gas prices. $4 for a gallon is a lot less than almost €2 for a liter, the price for it here in Italy. One week ago at some places it was even a cent or 2 more than €2

Returning to the racial differences: It's in my point of view better to search for what we have in common than pointing at issues where we differ from the people who look, believe or act following the rules of their culture, nature and/or nurture. Besides: democratic dialogue is to prefer over bureaucratic monologue
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.