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adjectives and intransitive verbs Options
ghu
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:20:24 PM
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leonAzul wrote:


Saying that the "predicate adjectival complement" refers to the part of the predicate complement that is used as the adjective is like saying that the predicate verbal complement refers to the part of the predicate complement that is used as the verb. It doesn't quite add up. Think



predicate adjectival complement= an adjectival complement of the predicate. (a complement of the adjectival??)I think it is not so. It is the complement that acts like the adjective.(She was in a good mood.)(in a good mood is an adjectival (not the adjective one) complement of the predicate and the subject predicative complement)
predicate adjective complement=an adjective complement in the predicate. (a complement of the adjective in the predicate)
ghu
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:50:19 PM
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leon, you said there...
...Therefore, "with shame" can be described as an adjectival complement."
You mean the complement of the whole adjectival (adjective phrase), because the complement for you ends this phrase.I wonder why not "the adjective complement"? It is the adjective the "with shame" completes. Or you never heard about the adjective complement?
when you say,"the noun complement" you mean the complement of the noun.
This complement could be the attributive and the predicative one. Do you hear something about it?
Could you say what you mean under the complement of the verb and the predicate complement in the sentence,"He could not help his friend with money."
Also, when you are explicating your point of view,please, give some examples that it would be clear what you mean, otherwise many your sentences are too hard for non-native speaker to understand. It looks like you post only for native English speakers. I can't understand what you mean, that is why I can't answer you.
ghu
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:22:43 PM
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leonAzul wrote:
There is already the concept of a predicative adjective, why do we need to muddy the waters with the idea of a subject complement that isn't even in the subject of the sentence, but rather is already called a predicate complement because it is a part of the predicate?


"Roses in a silver bowl complement the handsome cherry table." They are not the part of the table. Just like in the grammar.
Audiendus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:38:00 PM
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Audiendus wrote:
ghu wrote:
Leon, I can give you a lots of links, where it is said the same as I mean.
complement
Adjective complements, subject complements, verb complements.

The section headed "Other Complements" in your link contains one obvious mistake! Can you spot it?

Since nobody has picked up this point, I will explain:

The link refers to "excited" in "The students were excited" as an object complement. It is, of course, a subject complement (if one is using that terminology).
ghu
Posted: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:33:55 AM
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Audiendus wrote:

the bridge was collapsed [sounds odd if the meaning is intransitive; "the bridge had collapsed" is more natural]
the prisoner was escaped [sounds odd; "the prisoner had escaped" is more natural]
the general was retired [perfectly OK]transitive
the plot was failed [sounds very odd; we would say "the plot had failed"]
the man was grown [sounds odd, but "the man was fully grown" sounds OK]
the passport was expired [possibly, but "had expired" sounds better] In this case"expired" is the transitive participle
the civilization was vanished [possibly]"vanished" is the transitive
the woodwork was decayed [perfectly OK]transitive

It would not be normal to use an intransitive past-participle adjective immediately after a noun, either with or without a comma (e.g. "the general[,] retired..."), and it would certainly be wrong to use such an adjective after get/got ("the general got retired").

You couldn't use an intransitive past-participle adjectives after the nouns, because you always imply the predicative using all the adjectives after the linking verb (be) "was" in this case?
"I saw him sung" is wrong because I saw him (when he was singing), not (when he had sung or who had sung)
"I met the prisoner escaped from the prizon yesterday" is wrong because "I met the prizoner who was escaped from the prison yesterday" is wrong.
But "I saw the prisoner escaping from the prizon yesterday" is right. (I saw the prisoner that was (when he was)escaping from the prizon, yesterday)
Also, you can't say "The people walked ( because of "that had walked") on the street were dressed in coats" ("walked" follows the "had", not the"was")
"The people seen (that have seen)this film say that it is very interesting" is wrong because "seen" is not put after the "were".
ghu
Posted: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:53:25 AM
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Which adjectives from the participles besides "intersting" and "dissapointed" are pure adjectives, that have degrees of comparison? Are the adjectives from the intransitive participles among them?
leonAzul
Posted: Friday, October 5, 2012 10:18:38 AM

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ghu wrote:
Which adjectives from the participles besides "intersting" and "dissapointed" are pure adjectives, that have degrees of comparison? Are the adjectives from the intransitive participles among them?


It might be easier to identify those exceptions that don't allow for degrees of comparison.
Audiendus
Posted: Friday, October 5, 2012 4:35:06 PM
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ghu wrote:
Audiendus wrote:

the bridge was collapsed [sounds odd if the meaning is intransitive; "the bridge had collapsed" is more natural]
the prisoner was escaped [sounds odd; "the prisoner had escaped" is more natural]
the general was retired [perfectly OK]transitive
the plot was failed [sounds very odd; we would say "the plot had failed"]
the man was grown [sounds odd, but "the man was fully grown" sounds OK]
the passport was expired [possibly, but "had expired" sounds better] In this case"expired" is the transitive participle
the civilization was vanished [possibly]"vanished" is the transitive
the woodwork was decayed [perfectly OK]transitive

Your comments in blue are wrong. "Retire", "expire", "vanish" and ""decay" are all intransitive verbs.

Was retired = was in a retired state/condition = had retired (not had been retired)
Was expired = was in an expired state/condition = had expired (not had been expired)
etc.

ghu wrote:
"I saw him sung" is wrong because I saw him (when he was singing), not (when he had sung or who had sung)

"Sing" can be a transitive or an intransitive verb. The past participle of a verb that is transitive or can be transitive implies the passive voice, but a person cannot be sung, so "I saw him sung" makes no sense.

ghu wrote:
"I met the prisoner escaped from the prison yesterday" is wrong because "I met the prisoner who was escaped from the prison yesterday" is wrong.

Yes.

ghu wrote:
But "I saw the prisoner escaping from the prison yesterday" is right. (I saw the prisoner that was (when he was)escaping from the prison, yesterday)

Yes.

ghu wrote:
Also, you can't say "The people walked (because of "that had walked") on the street were dressed in coats" ("walked" follows the "had", not the "was")

Yes.

ghu wrote:
"The people seen (that have seen)this film say that it is very interesting" is wrong because "seen" is not put after the "were".

It is wrong because "see" is a transitive verb, so "seen" implies the passive voice (see my comment above). "The people seen" would mean "the people who are/were seen".

To sum up:

The past participle of a transitive verb, when used on its own (i.e. not part of a perfect tense), always has a passive meaning.

The past participle of an intransitive verb, when used on its own, has an active meaning. But: there are only a few intransitive verbs (e.g. collapse, escape, retire, fail, freeze, depart) whose past participles can be used on their own (attributively only); that is why I earlier called them "exceptions". With most intransitive verbs, the past participle cannot be used on its own. For example, you cannot say any of the following:

The slept people
The run athlete
The lived family
The died man
The spoken teacher
The written friend
The come guest
The won competitor
The ended film
The complained customer
The shouted child
The disagreed member
The protested workers
The skated woman
etc.
ghu
Posted: Sunday, October 7, 2012 5:07:58 PM
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So, if one can't use the participle attributively one can't use these intransitive participles after the nouns? I marked my sentences in blue. Are they wrong too?
Audiendus wrote:


1)The slept people The people slept on the ground were refugees.
2)The run athleteThe athlete run along the road was dressed in blue snickers.
The spoken teacher The teacher spoken English was his father. (But the spoken languade (English) is OK?)
The written friend In this case "written" is passive. The written word is OK?

The won competitor because it is passive
The ended film (passive)
The complained customer (in this case it feels the passive too.)
The shouted child The child shouted in the street wanted the ice-cream.
The disagreed member [color=blue]The member disagreed with other members was excluded from the group.

The protested workers [color=blue]It feels the passive

The skated woman ( more passive sense for the ice?)
etc.
ghu
Posted: Sunday, October 7, 2012 5:16:05 PM
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Audiendus wrote:

The past participle of an intransitive verb, when used on its own, has an active meaning. But: there are only a few intransitive verbs (e.g. collapse, escape, retire, fail, freeze, depart) whose past participles can be used on their own (attributively only);

Because these verbs have the completed meaning?
leonAzul
Posted: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:02:05 PM

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Audiendus wrote:

To sum up:

The past participle of a transitive verb, when used on its own (i.e. not part of a perfect tense), always has a passive meaning.

The past participle of an intransitive verb, when used on its own, has an active meaning. But: there are only a few intransitive verbs (e.g. collapse, escape, retire, fail, freeze, depart) whose past participles can be used on their own (attributively only); that is why I earlier called them "exceptions". With most intransitive verbs, the past participle cannot be used on its own. For example, you cannot say any of the following:

The slept people
The run athlete
The lived family
The died man
The spoken teacher
The written friend
The come guest
The won competitor
The ended film
The complained customer
The shouted child
The disagreed member
The protested workers
The skated woman
etc.


I see what you are saying here, and why ghu said that "fallen" is an exception.

We have a different sense of it though. I hear them as wrong because the meanings don't match, not because of transitivity, but I see your point.

I just noticed that the ones that do work are mostly strong verbs. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, or not?
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:34:05 PM
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leonAzul wrote:
I just noticed that the ones that do work are mostly strong verbs. I wonder if that has anything to do with it, or not?

Most (not all) of those that work seem to be ones that refer to some kind of "transformation" of the person or thing they refer to. But there is no consistency – for example, we can say "a well-travelled person" but not "a travelled person". We can say "the recently arrived guest" but not normally "the arrived guest".
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, October 7, 2012 8:45:26 PM
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ghu wrote:
So, if one can't use the participle attributively one can't use these intransitive participles after the nouns? Correct. I marked my sentences in blue. Are they wrong too? Yes.

1)The slept people The people slept on the ground were refugees.
Should be "the people who had slept" or "the people who slept" or "the people who were sleeping", depending on your meaning.


2)The run athlete The athlete run along the road was dressed in blue snickers.
Should be "the athlete who had run" or "the athlete who ran" or "the athlete who was running".

Your other examples should be corrected similarly.


The spoken teacher The teacher spoken English was his father. (But the spoken language (English) is OK?)
Yes. One cannot "speak a teacher", so "speak" cannot be transitive with a teacher as the object. But one can speak a language, so it can be transitive with a language as the object.

The written friend In this case "written" is passive. The written word is OK?
Yes. One cannot "write a friend", but one can "write a word".

The won competitor because it is passive
The ended film (passive)
The complained customer (in this case it feels the passive too.)
The shouted child The child shouted in the street wanted the ice-cream.
The disagreed member The member disagreed with other members was excluded from the group.
The protested workers It feels the passive
The skated woman (more passive sense for the ice?)
etc.
No, none of the above are passive. They all have an intransitive (and therefore active) meaning. And they are not among the permissible intransitive exceptions (such as "collapse", "escape" etc), so they are wrong.
ghu
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2012 2:00:56 PM
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Audiendus wrote:

The ended film (passive)]No, none of the above are passive. They all have an intransitive (and therefore active) meaning. And they are not among the permissible intransitive exceptions (such as "collapse", "escape" etc), so they are wrong.

but, why doesn't one say,"They ended their show at 7 o'clock. So, "the ended show" would be passive?
ghu
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2012 2:19:15 PM
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Audiendus wrote:
"a well-travelled person" but not "a travelled person". We can say "the recently arrived guest" but not normally "the arrived guest".

It is because "well" with "-" points out that the "travelled" is the adjective in "A well-travelled".
It is because "resently" points out that the guest has already arrived. So, "arrived" acts with it like the adjective, adjective has some constant sense. The guest is not arriving, but he is already arrived. Maybe for any past intransitive participle there could be found some word with which this participle could be used attributively?
We have special "suffix" for the past active participles. No matter whether they are transitive ot intransitive.
Any of them could be use attributively. The passive participles have the other suffix.
Audiendus
Posted: Monday, October 8, 2012 6:19:12 PM
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ghu wrote:
Audiendus wrote:

The ended film (passive)]No, none of the above are passive. They all have an intransitive (and therefore active) meaning. And they are not among the permissible intransitive exceptions (such as "collapse", "escape" etc), so they are wrong.

but, why doesn't one say,"They ended their show at 7 o'clock. So, "the ended show" would be passive?

If you mean "the show that has been ended" rather than "the show that has ended", then "the ended show" is grammatically OK. But it wouldn't sound natural to a native English speaker.
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