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Same song, verse ad nauseum - Islam is NOT a violent religion Options
Blooper
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:08:00 AM
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Worth a new topic on P&R.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:19:12 PM

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I know what you are saying PP. Not a lot has changed in the established Churches, because they are controlled by human beings. People want to admire, adore, even worship what they can see, so priests are encouraged to wear their gorgeous robes, Bishops to live in Palaces or Castles and to carry symbols of power and majesty. An even bigger problem is that people don't want to think for themselves in church. They seldom read the Bible; hardly ever discuss the Scriptures among themselves. Just let the priest say a few words and that's them OK until next Sunday. Happily, not all denominations are like that. There has always been a significant movement within the Church that seeks to learn from Scripture and to be good witnesses for Christ, that is, to be like him, and therefore like God.
BTW, Jesus is here today, in the Word and in the Spirit.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 1:20:44 PM

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Hi Blooper. I wish I had thought of that.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 3:10:55 PM
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Quote:
People want to admire, adore, even worship what they can see, so priests are encouraged to wear their gorgeous robes, Bishops to live in Palaces or Castles and to carry symbols of power and majesty. An even bigger problem is that people don't want to think for themselves in church. They seldom read the Bible; hardly ever discuss the Scriptures among themselves. Just let the priest say a few words and that's them OK until next Sunday.


When I consider the fact that Muslims kneel five times daily to worship Allah(GOD) while most Christians rely on an hourly weekly Sunday morning lipservice, it has left me wondering often since 9/11 as to whose side is God on anyway, if either(Judeo-Christians or Muslims). The tallest buildings in the world(the twin towers of the World Trade Center until 9/11) are testimony of our veneration of Mammon and the awesome power of the ruthless world of money and high finance. Could 9/11 have been a divine warning or a foreshadowing of things to come if we don't change the direction of our life's course and focus from the overwhelming desire to accumulate more and evermore luxury and wealth? In ancient times, civilizations built their temples in praise of their gods on the highest mountain tops in their vicinity from which it could be seen and praised from afar from every point on the compass of which Mount Olympus was the prime example. That was, until advances in technology allowed towers to be built ever higher and higher towards heaven and God of which the tower of Babel was the example at that time. Is it not true, if the scriptures claim it's so, that 'money is the root of all evil' and 'tis easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...'?
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:45:15 PM

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You are making some sweeping judgments here Silva and I wish to respond to your comments. You are asserting that all Muslims faithfully kneel in prayer every day while most Christians only pray once a week. You don’t know that all Muslims are kneeling in prayer five times daily. And some of those who are kneeling may be thinking of things other than God. And you don’t know that most Christians only attend prayer once a week. Christians are encouraged (in Scripture) to always be praying. A Christian does not have to be in a special place, nor does s/he need to kneel to pray. Compared to a Believing Christian’s prayer duty, the Muslim prayer routine of five times a day is a poor offering to God.
And you evidently assume that prayer is worship. It is not. Worship is what you should be doing all day every day. It is showing the goodness of God by how you behave, how you speak, where you go, the company you keep, the jokes you tell etc. (If people who know you don’t recognise you as a Christian you probably aren’t). Prayer is only part of worship. The world knows all about Muslims who pray before they slaughter innocent men women and children.
You wonder whose side God is on. God is on the side of the sinner. He died to save sinners, whatever their theology or lack of it, whatever their race or culture. They all belong to God.
Could 9/11 be a divine warning to Capitalists you ask. Well if it was, what should we make of the earthquakes in Pakistan, the droughts, the tsunamis, the famines all over the world? These kill hundreds of thousands of men and women, boys and girls. All of these disasters are caused by man. Yes, even the natural disasters. They are consequences, not warnings. God did not make the world to fall apart or flood. When he made the world He saw that it was good. And he did not make man to starve or die of thirst. With the Fall of man – due to man’s disobedience – the whole world order fell into chaos. There is sufficient food and water in the world to eliminate hunger and thirst. It is man who fails to distribute it because he is too busy spending money on entertainment, cosmetics, fashion, sport and war. This is the failure of countries everywhere – not just in the West.
God does not forbid men to become rich. A man can be as rich as he likes but he should remember the poor. It is not true that ‘money is the root of all evil’. It is the love of money that is.
Jesus’ reference to getting a camel through the eye of a needle is a proverbial expression. Things that are impossible for man are possible with God and the richer a man is the more he needs to rely on God because his distractions and temptations will be greater the richer he becomes, generally speaking.
There are Temples and Temples. The First Temple (or Solomon’s Temple) was the grandest affair, and Solomon was chosen by God to build it. For centuries since then man has been inspired by Solomon’s Temple and has built great edifices to the Glory of God. But the greatest Temple is the one which God inhabits by His Holy Spirit. The Temple that is the Church – not any denomination, but the Company of Believers wherever and whoever they are. This Temple is currently under construction. The stones that form the walls are the people who have received Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and the Foundation of the Temple is Jesus himself.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:59:59 PM
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No wonder I am confused!
niblick
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:04:00 PM
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Jacobus explains well that it is the love of money and not money itself that leads
to perdition.

If I recall correctly, the needle's eye referred to a rock formation under which a
man could pass but only with difficulty and by contorting his natural shape.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:08:01 PM
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Please, can we stay on topic, its realy important.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:37:51 PM
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Jacobusmaximus,

I refuse to be drawn in again into another long tit-for-tat theological discussion with you to straighten out the words you've already twisted to set the stage in an apparent attempt to justify your love of money by supporting your underlying hypocracy by defending your faith. I just expressed my personal opinion about a possible scenario when most Christians still ask themselves why would God allow such a horrific tragedy to happen. Have you not read The Book of Job? We're not dealing with some mamby-pamby, keep-turning-the-other-cheek sacrificial lamb here who's led meekly to the slaughter. As I said before, you're a hard nut to crack and you obviously miss Ms. B. Have miserably to rant on with as God's self-appointed spokesman.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEtBs6j7QgU
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 5:55:01 AM

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Silva,
First of all you obviously have not read my later replies to Ms. B. Have, or you would not suggest I miss her contributions. But I don't think you really believe that anyway - it is just a feeble attempt to belittle me. Until you accept that it is not God, but mankind, who causes or permits suffering in the world you are never going to understand what a Christian is.

However, back to the topic, as counselled by Tovarish. 'Islam is not a violent religion'. Really? Why then, in 627, did they exterminate all male Jews and enslave their women at an oasis settlement in Arabia? Why in 624 did Muhammad's army of 300 clash with and defeat 1,000 Quraysh warriors trying to stem the northward advancement of Islam? Or in 627 defeat an army of 10,000 from Mecca? Were the Islamic fighters not just an early form of Crusaders?
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 8:52:23 AM
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Just to clarify,

I don't believe that one has to be destitute of money or even poor to find God and meaning in life since most have families to support and much has changed in 2000 years. However, I do believe a lot depends on the method that it's gained since it often comes in the form of temptations by bending rules or breaking moral codes by manipulation or deception or by just outright picking someone's pocket. However, once accumulated it's meant to be spent wisely and that means helping the needy and less fortunate when able and not be consumed with always keeping up with or surpassing the Jones' ...

Or, as we used to joke during our younger days; who has the most toys in the end, wins.

http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/43911/28668105/?pg=last

http://paulandrewanderson.webs.com/mammon.html
Tovarish
Posted: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 8:30:33 PM
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As I only have a rudimentary knowledge of the structures of the Christian Churches, I hope you may over look some blunders.

We have parish priests, ministers, pastors, padres, coming under a Parish council.

Then deacons, arch deacons, cannons, bishops, followed by cardinals, on to the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterberry.

There is a structure in each of these Christian churches, or a 'chain of command' ,if you will.

The difficulties that the Muslim Community in Sydney is having is a lack of this chain of command, where individual groups are acting on their

own and not responsible to someone above, (no I dont mean above-above, I mean in Sydney).

So when a Christian, with limited theological knowledge witnesses violence and riot by Muslim people, he/she sees them as one faith, acting as one.

This does not appear to be the case, as I said in an earlier post,

some of the Muslim community are divided by country of origin, and even suberb of residency.

From the video, TV and phone footage, the rioters were young men of Middle Eastern appearence, not multi-racial.

This situation has enlightened me to something I didnt know, but then again some bright spark said, "A little knowledge is dangeous"

Pantomime
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 7:44:39 AM
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I still have trouble understanding why some of you keep comparing Islam to Christianity and vice versa.

The twain are diametrically opposite. If anything, just a diversion from the real point.

You should judge a system by the actions it begets not by its encoding.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:09:22 AM

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Diametrically opposed? You might be correct there Pantomime, but I think you need to back up your statement with some facts. Can you?
Tovarish
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:36:13 AM
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I have been comparing religeon with religeon. What else would I compare it with?
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 11:43:55 AM

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Tovarish wrote:
As I only have a rudimentary knowledge of the structures of the Christian Churches, I hope you may over look some blunders.

We have parish priests, ministers, pastors, padres, coming under a Parish council.Then deacons, arch deacons, cannons, bishops, followed by cardinals, on to the Pope or the Arch Bishop of Canterberry.
There is a structure in each of these Christian churches, or a 'chain of command' ,if you will.
The difficulties that the Muslim Community in Sydney is having is a lack of this chain of command, where individual groups are acting on their own and not responsible to someone above, (no I dont mean above-above, I mean in Sydney).

So when a Christian, with limited theological knowledge witnesses violence and riot by Muslim people, he/she sees them as one faith, acting as one. This does not appear to be the case, as I said in an earlier post, some of the Muslim community are divided by country of origin, and even suberb of residency.

From the video, TV and phone footage, the rioters were young men of Middle Eastern appearence, not multi-racial.

This situation has enlightened me to something I didnt know, but then again some bright spark said, "A little knowledge is dangeous"


In the Reformed Christian Churches the chain of command is likely to take the form of 'Courts', beginning with a body of Elders, then Presbyters, then a General Assembly, often made up of these same Elders and Presbyters, plus some senior Clergymen. This is a very inefficient chain of command as these Courts only meet monthly, quarterly and annually. No one man (or woman) can issue an edict commanding church members not to behave in a certain way. In any case, rioting 'Christians' are almost certainly not members of a church and are probably Christians in name only. The ultimate authority for a Believing (practising)Christian is Scripture, which supersedes even the highest Church Court. You can be sure that violent,rioting 'Christians' these days wouldn't even know where to find a copy of the Bible.

I am coming round to believing that violent, rioting Musilms are no better than their Christian counterparts. What they do, they do for their own glory, not God's. Their public show of anger is their poor substitute for obedience, charity and faithful study of the Qur'an. They bring dishonour to their Prophet's name.
Tovarish
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 6:54:30 PM
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This is possibly where the Muslim community finds its self too.

These rioters in Sydney seem to be a minority group, practicing their so called faith, with self appointed mullahs, in back yard garages.

If it was only so simple.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2012 8:49:46 PM

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A few years ago, we had some fanatical Christians here in the U.S. killing doctors because of the abortion issue. Nearly the whole of the Christian community condemned those killings, the mind-set behind them, and the idea of violence as a means of solving a disagreement or sense of offense. To kill anyone, particularly innocents because someone thinks God, His Prophet, His Son, or His Word has been offended, is to dishonor both that God and that Faith, as jacobusmaximus pointed out.

If the Muslim world could do the same, perhaps this would stop some of this madness. Unfortunately, the Muslim religion is often the power behind the Government, so speaking out can not only bring down the force of the State upon one, but also the violence of the fanatics since the State would approve. Here, in the U.S., the Government used its resources to track down those who were doing the killing.


But is this the case of Muslims in Western Societies? Do they fear to condemn the dishonoring of their faith by these fanatics because of what those fellow fanatical Muslims will do to them, or do they feel they have no protection from the authorities?

I wonder. Furthermore, it is a sad commentary on a faith that it lives in fear of a fanatical minority of its members. If one is to have a faith, it should, it seems to me, promote a sense of peace and contentment, not fear, isolation, and timidity. I congratulate and praise those who were brave enough to publicly stand against the barbarism, at risk to their own safety.
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:52:04 AM
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My mind always comes around to the cover up of child abusers with the catholic church, dont phone the Police,

just shift the poaedophile to another district, the church saves face and money.

This is not anchient history, it is still happening.

I expect the churches to effectively police their priests and parishioners.

So is it naieve to expect the same of Muslims?
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 1:31:40 AM
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You know it's almost October and US presidential election's going to be held on November.

Generally I'm not really into politics but this time I'm really concerned about it.

I'm not religious, I am an agnostic but I liked Osmonds,

what am I talking about?

Anyway there's one thing that is clear:

If the US fails, the world is going to be in chaos.




Tovarish
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 7:56:55 AM
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AFB, did you mean the Obamas?
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:04:26 AM
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Tovarish wrote:
AFB, did you mean the Obamas?




That is a subtle point to me too.



Tovarish
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:08:48 AM
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I think the Osmonds were Donny & Maree, entertainers but not the President of the US.
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2012 9:38:45 AM
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Tovarish wrote:
I think the Osmonds were Donny & Maree, entertainers but not the President of the US.





Just because he is a member of LSD and a entertainer,

that doesn't mean he is unqualified to be the President of the United States.





TL Hobs
Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2012 12:49:42 PM
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almostfreebird wrote:
Just because he is a member of LSD and a entertainer,

that doesn't mean he is unqualified to be the President of the United States.


I am not sure I understand this comment, however, that won't stop me from making an equally inane remark. Think

We, the US voters, had the option of voting for a drug addicted actor,and elected him twice to be President, back in the 1980's, and history tells us what that did for us.

I don't believe we have that option again this time.

Prim*
Posted: Saturday, March 30, 2013 10:10:04 PM
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jacobusmaximus wrote:
[...]

Tovarish, The Doctrine of the Trinity is baffling, even to some theologians. Christian Doctrine teaches that Jesus was (i.e. existed) 'in the beginning', that he was not created by God, but existed as a part of God. Also existing from the beginning - i.e. - not created, was the Holy Sprit of God. Three in One. This is the Triune God that Christians believe in.
[...]


I wonder if the word "sprit" is used in any other places, except in the Bible and biblical context...Think
almostfreebird
Posted: Monday, April 1, 2013 10:27:04 AM
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I was just talking crazy playing on words.

I don't think the Osmonds do LSD,
they are devout Latter Day Saints.



"He Ain't Heavy... He's My Brother"



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