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NN phrase Options
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:30:12 PM

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Hi,

As far as I know in the sequence of words in an English sentence is reverse in Arabic. Thus, in this sentence below what difference would be if I wrote 'attachment' before 'email'
Acrobat Reader couldn't open this 'M.ibg'. Because it is either not a supported file type or because the file has been damaged(for example, it was sent as an email attachment and wasn't correctly decoded)

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 6:58:55 PM

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An "e-mail attachment" is an attachment (picture, text file or similar) which is attached to the e-mail.

An "attachment e-mail" (though this is not a normal phrase) would be an e-mail attached to something (unnamed).

Basically, in NN constructions, the first "noun" becomes an adjective explaining something about the second noun (which is the noun).

In "e-mail attachment", the second noun (attachment) is what the thing is. The first noun is really an adjective saying what the attachment is attached to.

In "attachment e-mail", the second noun (e-mail) is what the thing is. The first noun is an adjective saying what type of e-mail it is

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
srirr
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2012 12:46:37 AM

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I agree with Dragon.

"attachment email" is not common.



We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. ~ Swami Vivekanand
pjharvey
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:05:26 AM
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If I remember well, Outlook Express, which I used in the past, allows you to add an email as an attachment to another email.
Lotus Notes, which I use now, doesn't.
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2012 8:16:52 AM
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Thank you DragOnspeaker for your helpful and clear explanation.
RuthP
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2012 11:25:57 AM

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pjharvey wrote:
If I remember well, Outlook Express, which I used in the past, allows you to add an email as an attachment to another email.
Lotus Notes, which I use now, doesn't.

Yes, and then you'd be dealing with an attached e-mail.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2012 3:34:11 PM

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Thank you so much indeed.



Why is it being written 'language testing' instead of 'testing language'?

Statistic is useful in language testing/testing language.

if it is because 'language' is functioned as an adjective and 'testing' is a noun, then why 'testing' is used instead of 'test'.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:34:35 PM

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What do you mean exactly by "language testing" or "testing language"? Haven't ever heard either phrases.
Do you mean testing someone's skills in using some language or testing several languages for some specific use (like Navajo as code language during WW2) or testing which language would fill your needs best?

You have once or twice written in another thread here your aim is to become the President of Yemen one day, and that you study English to be able to communicate with other world leaders. Are you going to talk with them about adjectives and nouns, and about in what order the determiners and modifiers are used?



In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2012 5:49:38 PM

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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
What do you mean exactly by "language testing" or "testing language"? Haven't ever heard either phrases.
Do you mean testing someone's skills in using some language or testing several languages for some specific use (like Navajo as code language during WW2) or testing which language would fill your needs best?

You have once or twice written in another thread here your aim is to become the President of Yemen one day, and that you study English to be able to communicate with other world leaders. Are you going to talk with them about adjectives and nouns, and about in what order the determiners and modifiers are used?



Thanks a lot, This is just a sentence to show how to use 'statistics with a sigular verb. I have quoted it from a book
I would only like to know according to what the author said 'language testing' and not 'testing language'

As ASIDE, BUT PLEASE DON'T ENTER us IN THE POLITICS. MY LAST ANSWER IN THAT THREAD WAS FOR SOMEONE WANTED TO KNOW WHY I NEED TO LEARN ENGLISH. HOWEVER FOR YOUR CURIOSITY NOT ME ONLY WANT TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF PEOPLE'S DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF YEMEN, BUT MOST SOUTHERN YEMENI PEOPLE WANT TO BE THE PRESIDENT OF THE NEW COUNTRY AND THE SUITABLE MAN WHO WILL NEED TO DEVELOP OUR COUNTRY.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
RuthP
Posted: Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:19:21 PM

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A cooperator wrote:
Thank you so much indeed.



Why is it being written 'language testing' instead of 'testing language'?

Statistic is useful in language testing/testing language.
It may be written either way.

Statistics (like mathematics) is (collective noun; are would be acceptable too) useful in language-testing. (but the hyphen is not necessary)
Statistics is useful in testing language.


if it is because 'language' is functioned as an adjective and 'testing' is a noun, then why 'testing' is used instead of 'test'.
Because language testing (or, more clearly, language-testing) substitutes for the full idea of (the process of language-testing).

If you wished, instead, to use language test, you would say,
Statistics is useful in a language test.
In this case, test refers to the test used (perhaps even an actual, physical, written test paper), whereas testing refers to the process of testing.

Practically, much the same information is passed either way. In most situations, it would not matter which form you used. If, however, you were writing an evaluation of a specific test or a comparison of two different sets of test questions, you would wish to use the test format. While on the other hand, if you were comparing two testing protocols (for example written testing versus oral testing), you would wish to use the testing form.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 3:54:54 AM

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Thank you so much indeed, but I am really facing a problem with the sequence of the nouns when they are more than one to be formatted what calls with NN phrase
For example, this sentence, when I translate into my language (Arabic), I found it makes sense when 'pitch' comes after 'variation'

Don't worry if you hear minor pitch variation

This makes more sense in my language.
Don't worry if you hear minor variation pitch.

Are there any other significant rules for ordering(sequencing) nouns in a NN phrase like the rules for ordering adjectives?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:22:18 AM

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A cooperator wrote:
Thank you so much indeed, but I am really facing a problem with the sequence of the nouns when they are more than one to be formatted what calls with NN phrase
For example, this sentence, when I translate into my language (Arabic), I found it makes sense when 'pitch' comes after 'variation'

Don't worry if you hear minor pitch variation
This actually needs either to be plural or to use an article.

Don't worry if you hear minor pitch variations.
Don't worry if you hear a minor pitch variation.


This makes more sense in my language.
Don't worry if you hear minor variation pitch.

Are there any other significant rules for ordering(sequencing) nouns in a NN phrase like the rules for ordering adjectives?

So, what you are dealing with is one noun modifying another. The big issue is determining which is the subject/object noun and which the modifying noun. Once known, the modifier goes in front of the subject/object. In this case, you are dealing with a variation of some sort, and you are describing it.

First you say it is a small (minor) variation. This is simple: adjective noun.

Next, you say it is a variation in pitch (not in height or age), which means pitch is modifying variation, so pitch is acting in the place of an adjective and thus goes in front of the noun.

English can use the Arabic noun order, but it requires the use of a preposition.

Don't worry if you hear minor variations in pitch.
Don't worry if you hear a minor variation in pitch.



Out of curiosity, does Arabic put adjectives behind the noun or just nouns used as modifiers?
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:58:29 PM

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Thank you very much Ruth,

I am awfully sorry for the late reply , but I really didn't see this thread, except a little while ago.

The grammarians define the adjective ( 'Alna'at' in Arabic) that it is a dependent coming after a noun in order to show some of its conditions or the conditions of what are related with it, for instance, your saying (the industrious student came ) The word 'industrious' is the character/ adjective for the pupil. In this case, the adjective shows the condition of the pupil himself, and your saying (The student whose brother is industrious came) The word 'industrious' is the character/adjective for the pupil, but in this case it shows the condition of the student's brother and not the pupil himself .

According to it is said a real adjective for the adjective or ( 'Alna'at' in Arabic) in the first sentence, which I think that it is said an attributive adjective or a word in an attributive position in English, and a causal adjective in the second, which I think that it is called with a predicative adjective in English.
Thus, the adjective or 'Alna'at' can never come, except after the prescribed name simply because it's a dependent and a dependent does not come, except after a followed name.

On top of that, I see that there are quite important points, the first is that 'relative clauses' (as in the second sentence) are not used in Arabic and the other is that the links verbs, after which a predicative adjective comes, are not used in Arabic.

In conclusion, I believe that adjectives are only used after(behind) nouns in Arabic, which is fully in the reverse in English.

I hope you understand me.





Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 2, 2012 3:02:39 PM

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I have been watching Ruth do such a good job of answering your questions, so I did not interrupt.

However, I wanted to comment on your last statement (about the Arabic language).

Many European languages (I think the ones coming from Latin directly) have the noun+adjective form, rather than the adjective+noun form.

So, in Arabic, you cannot say:

The grass is green.
or
The grass, which is green, is on the hill.

Am I correct?

I guess there must be a way of expressing those ideas - something like:

The grass has a colour green.
and
The grass is growing on the hill. The grass has a colour green.

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 12:59:50 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
I have been watching Ruth do such a good job of answering your questions, so I did not interrupt.

However, I wanted to comment on your last statement (about the Arabic language).

Many European languages (I think the ones coming from Latin directly) have the noun+adjective form, rather than the adjective+noun form.

So, in Arabic, you cannot say:

The grass is green.
or
The grass, which is green, is on the hill.

Am I correct?

Drag0nspeaker
Although it was posted a long time ago, I would say that adjectives coming after a verb or before a noun is OK in arabic.
Thus, those are OK in Arabic.



Quote:
I guess there must be a way of expressing those ideas - something like:

The grass has a colour green.
and
The grass is growing on the hill. The grass has a colour green.


However, why do you in here use "noun + adjective" as in "a colour green"?
I even think it is strange in English that noun modifying an adjective.

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Fyfardens
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 1:17:44 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
[quote=Drag0nspeaker]
However, why do you in here use "noun + adjective" as in "a colour green"?
I even think it is strange in English that noun modifying an adjective.


It is not correct English. Drag0 was asking if that was the order of the words in Arabic.


I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 1:27:54 PM

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The grass has a colour green.
and
The grass is growing on the hill. The grass has a colour green.

These are not normal sentences.
If you look at the context, they are my GUESS at the construction in Arabic. (I guessed that because you continued - around that time - to add the word 'colour' in any sentence which contained the word 'red' or 'green'.)

In those sentences, "green" would not be an adjective, but a second noun.
It does not really make any sense to add the word 'colour' in English.

Sometimes, in order to give more information without a lot of words, this form is used in place of a single noun - <general noun> + <specific noun>.

Mary went to the cafe to meet a Frenchman, Pierre.

"A Frenchman" is a general noun, and Pierre is a specific noun (this is easier than saying "Mary went to the cafe to meet Pierre who is a Frenchman.")

It is not really an attributive noun acting as an adjective, it is simply two nouns which both name the same person or thing. The person is a Frenchman, and the person is Pierre.
The attribute of grass is its colour, and the attribute is green (the colour of light of a certain frequency). They are all nouns.

*****************
Now I'm a little confused.

On July the first, you wrote "adjectives are only used after(behind) nouns in Arabic".

Today you wrote "I would say that adjectives coming after a verb or before a noun is OK in arabic."

Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2018 8:15:28 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

*****************
Now I'm a little confused.

On July the first, you wrote "adjectives are only used after(behind) nouns in Arabic".

Today you wrote "I would say that adjectives coming after a verb or before a noun is OK in arabic."


You're my best forum friend 'Dragnspeaker, along with Audiendus, Thar, LeonAzul, RuthP, and NKM, who helped me a lot on here.
So, I wouldn't let you still be confused about what I said, and can explain as much as I can.
Yes, we never ever have an adjectives comes before a noun in Arabic language, so.
Ali is handsome.
Ali is a handsome man.
Ali looks cleaver.

We can write each of those three sentences in Arabic language with two ways(both are just called nominal sentence since the noun comes before--- in the first sentence, we only use two words, noun followed by an adjective or noun followed by another noun and then an adjective). Follow me with colours to understand me.

Ali is handsome.

علي وسيم => imaging being written as "Ali handsome."

يكون علي وسيم

Ali is a handsome man.
علي رجل وسيم => imaging being written as 'Ali a man handsome.
يكون علي رجل وسيم

Ali looks cleaver.
يبدو علي ذكي
Let me be precise here about English - Arabic.
In Arabic, there are only two sentences, no third for them. Nominative and verbal sentences.
In Arabic,
* we only say a sentence is a verbal sentence if a subject comes after a verb.
* we only say a sentence is a verbal sentence if a finite verb is not an auxiliary verb, but a main verb. So, "Ali is Handsome." has no verb in my Arabic language, however, it is adjectival sentence(nominative sentence).
* We never ever have a subject comes before a verb, if happened, then it is called a nominative sentence, not a verbal sentence even if there is a main verb.

Thus, we only can write "Ali is handsome." in Arabic as a nominative sentence(no verb). However, two words, the first one is the proper name "Ali" and modified by the adjective "handsome".
Like this:
Ali handsome.
عليوسيم
We can also write that sentence "Ali is hadnsome.", as another kind of nominative sentence by adding incomplete verb before the noun followed by the adjective. However, the sentence is still nominative.(no action of a verb done by the doer)
ِAli is handsome.

يكون علي وسيم



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, January 19, 2018 9:46:49 PM

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Thank you very much for the explanation!

So . . .

When you are learning English, it is useless to try to make the grammar 'fit' Arabic grammar.

They are different languages.
They are even different language-families. English is Germanic/Romance hybrid, I suppose - and Arabic is a Semitic language.
Even the original proto-languages are different. English is based on Indo-European roots and Arabic is based on Afro-Asiatic.

That is "WHY" in answer to all your questions like "Why do you call it a subject when Arabic calls it a beginner?
Why do you call it a 'beginner' in Arabic?
Because that is the name some grammarian gave it.

Arabic grammar is based on a totally different system from English.

They are different.
You can compare them and note the differences - but you cannot try to force one language to follow the grammar of another.

You need to learn English.
You need to learn English grammar.
Questioning it is useless.
Saying it is wrong because it is different from Arabic is useless.
Arabic grammar is right when you are speaking Arabic, but wrong when you are speaking English.
English grammar is right when you are speaking English and wrong when you are speaking Arabic.



Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
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