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In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is... Options
Daemon
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:00:00 AM
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In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme.

Aristotle (384 BC-322 BC)
Radical Marijuana
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 2:14:12 AM
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One would agree that, theoretically, a democracy would work the way that Aristotle thought it would. However, it did NOT actually turn out that way, because the methods of organized crime actually triumphed, so that the most important public powers ended up being privatized, to such a degree that democracy became a false front for fascist plutocracy. The main manifestation of that was that the people's power to control their currency was given away to private banks. After private banks gained the power to make money out of nothing, as endless debts, then the real system became runaway debt slavery. Counterfeiting was legalized. After that astonishing achievement of the methods of organized crime, then other legalized lies, that we now call "corporations" grew up around those private banks, that could make money out of nothing. Therefore, what actually exists is a fake democracy, that conceals a fascist plutocracy, to a ratio of something like 1% real democracy left, while there is actually 99% fascist plutocracy, with respect to everything else important. Furthermore, while the education of all citizens is a central principle of real democracy, in a fake democracy, the people are given a fake education, that brainwashes them, so that most of them do not have a clue how "their" systems work. In all the so-called democracies in the Anglo-American world today, the dominant minority controls the majority through huge lies, backed by violence. Those fake democracies are NOT anything like what Aristotle correctly thought democracies would be, according to theory. The reasons were the triumphs of the methods of organized crime, working behind the scenes. Relentless, ruthless, bribery, intimidation and assassination, etc., was able to destroy "democracy" and turn the social reality into a Bizarro Mirror World Fun House, where everything was actually the opposite of what it was theoretically supposed to be!
MillRatUSMC
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:09:57 AM
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I quote;
"In a democracy the poor will have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme".
Aristotle
(384 BC-322 BC)
My Note;
I think the old man.
Never had a vision.
Of the USA in the 21st Century.
The 'rich' can buy and sell members of Congress at any moment.
Thus making the 'rich' the most powerful in the USA in the 21st Century.
The poor don't have the means to match money with the 'rich'.
Thus making them almost non-existing.
MTC
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:41:37 AM
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Well, Radical Marijuana, I would not go quite so far as you have in concluding American Democracy is a "fascist plutocracy," but after the Citizens United decision of our misguided Supreme Court, I believe we are definitely headed in that direction. Your statement that "the dominant minority controls the majority through huge lies, backed by violence" is a better description of China and North Korea than the U.S. Also, I believe the fact you are able to openly criticize the U.S. Democracy as a "fraud" with impunity undercuts your argument that the majority is powerless. While an undergraduate at U.C. Berkeley during the Vietnam Era I heard a great deal of political rhetoric like yours. But it was the students (including me) with their far-from-"fake" educations who galvanized public opinion to bring the War to an end. Voters still wield great power in the U.S., but their power is being eroded by corporate interests and their representatives in Congress and the Supreme Court. Our presidential election process is completely corrupted by money, the huge sums it takes to be elected, and the political indebtedness it brings. America's steady movement toward a two-tier, rich and poor society also threatens Democracy. So in summary, I think a "fascist plutocracy" masquerading as a Democracy is possible in the future if U.S. citizens don't wake up, but we're not there yet.
nw3bk3y
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:07:54 AM
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MTC, how do you know RM is talking solely about the US? Also, I think the argument that we are 'not there yet' is not a rational for complacency. It is like saying a cancer patient is doing okay because they're not dead yet. Or that global warming is not a problem because we're not cooked yet.

I think Aristotle would be right were it not for corporate control of our mass media (radio, TV, and print) so that political dissent comes as a tiny whisper despite overwhelming discontent. There is also the issue of local economic independence, which Radical Marijuana also talked about. If the issuing of currency was not controlled by the private banking cartel, known as the Federal Reserve in the US, then local economies could flourish independently of what is going on in Europe or in the stock market. Take the Amish for example: they have not been affected by the global recession at all. When the mega-too-big-to-fail-banks control our currency and funnel everything through Wall Street's insane speculation game, then we are forced on a roller coaster ride that we needn't get on.

So it is the lack of control of the majority in the realms of politics and economics that allows the 1% to scare the rest into submission.

MTC
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:42:55 AM
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In reply to nw3bk3y's comments, RM referred to "the so called democracies in the Anglo-American world today, " not to the American economy alone. But I responded about America because that is the democracy with which I am most familiar. RM might have been speaking about any number of countries. The expression is somewhat vague.

As for "complacency," I thought I made it clear the "fascist plutocracy" is possible "if citizens don't wake up." How much more of a rallying cry do we need? Wake up Americans!

Corporations do not control (yet) the content of all our media. You will find discussions of the same issues in any number of media, particularly the more Liberal outlets. In fact, TFD is a case in point. Here we are debating the issues. Therefore, characterizing dissent as "a tiny whisper" is inaccurate.

As for lumping the Federal Reserve system together with to-big-to-fail Investment Banks, I believe that blurs necessary distinctions. These are two different entities, each with it's own problems. The private Investment Banks are out of control thanks to deregulation. Their irresponsible greed-driven marketing of bundled high risk mortgages brought the U.S. economy to a state of near collapse. What do you propose to replace the Government run Federal Reserve system?

When you refer to "local economies flourishing independently," do you seriously contend local economies can replace the national and global economies?
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:54:46 AM
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Aristotle...hmmm, must have been on a bad day, or he referred to direct or "pure" democracy. Where I come from money and power have always gone hand-in-hand...and it's only been getting worse lately...
Anatolian
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:15:07 PM

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In Aristotle's time, there is no mass media which would have manipulated the will of the majority.
Anatolian
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 5:16:34 PM

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In Aristotle's time, there was no mass media which would have manipulated the will of the majority.
Radical Marijuana
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 6:48:04 PM
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My replies to some replies above:

I am most familiar with the Canadian political situation. (I have had two court cases against the Canadian government over the laws controlling the funding of our political processes, and I am currently registered as the "leader" of a fringe cubed Canadian political party.)

I study the USA situation, since whatever happens in the USA is the main factor that will actually control the real future of Canada.

Since the 1960s, the USA has had a near perfect match of its overall debts to an exponential growth curve. The needed next doubling of total debts has become practically impossible to imagine. Everything that went wrong since the 1960s has been AMPLIFIED TO ASTRONOMICAL SIZES.

The wars back during those times took place when the world first developed enough atomic bombs to destroy civilization. We now have many more countries, with many more bombs. There are now at least a couple thousand atomic bombs ready to go at a moment's notice, able to destroy global civilization far more than ten times over. Those systems back up a global privatized fiat money electronic fraud of equally astronomical proportions.

None of the possible "solutions" are remotely close to the magnitude of the problems of electronic frauds backed by atomic bombs! The ability to resolve these problems has slightly deceased, while the size of the problems themselves has been multiplied many times.

"Freedom of speech" has become freedom to say anything that does not make any real difference. I believe that our "democracy" has already passed the event horizon into a social black hole. It is already too late to stop the runaway fascist plutocracy's insanities from destroying themselves!

The basic problem is as old as the history of militarism. The short-term triumphs of lies backed by violence can never make those lies become true. Instead, that system suffers final failure from too much "success!" We are probably past the point where more radical truth could save us from the consequences of being controlled by lies. The astronomically amplified established systems are already headed for psychotic breakdowns ...
excaelis
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:23:44 PM

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HWNN1961 wrote:
Aristotle...hmmm, must have been on a bad day, or he referred to direct or "pure" democracy. Where I come from money and power have always gone hand-in-hand...and it's only been getting worse lately...


Frankly, it was the same in Aristotle's time. Not everyone in Athens got to vote.
leonAzul
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 8:44:49 PM

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The more complete quotation reads thus:

Aristotle "Politics" Book 6 Part II wrote:
Every citizen, it is said, must have equality, and therefore in a democracy the poor have more power than the rich, because there are more of them, and the will of the majority is supreme. This, then, is one note of liberty which all democrats affirm to be the principle of their state.

Retrieved from (http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.6.six.html) 15 June 2012.

The significant omission that Daemon has made is the word "citizen". The criteria for citizenship have changed radically from those of Aristotle's time. What has remained constant over time is the sense that a citizen is someone who has a stake in the success of the polity, a sense of vestment, as it were. To posit that for all intents and purposes this is tantamount to plutocracy is trivial and adds very little to the discourse.
Radical Marijuana
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 11:49:20 PM
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Of course, it was relevant that citizens in ancient Greece were ONLY free men, that were estimated to make up only about one seventh of the population in most ancient Greek city states.

Having everyone be qualified to be citizens that can vote is theoretically important. However, the REALITY ended up worse now than then. We have a much more sophisticated system of slavery now, than back then. We have debt slavery, which is a runaway towards debt insanity! The entire population of taxpayers are now enslaved, to an entire money-as-debt system!

Quote:
from leonAzul: "To posit that for all intents and purposes this is tantamount to plutocracy is trivial and adds very little to the discourse."


I was NOT talking about theoretical "democracy!" Of course, in theory, that is extremely different. However, in the REAL world, the vicious spirals of the funding of the political processes, combined with illegal actions, such as assassination of those that could not be bribed or otherwise intimidated, ended up with the privatization of all the most important public powers.

Those public powers should be controlled by the votes of the citizens, through electing their representatives. However, the voting of the citizens to make the laws does not matter much after the most important public powers have already been privatized long ago, by the passage of inconceivably crazy and corrupt laws, that gave away the most important powers of those citizens to a tiny elite of plutocratic powers!

Without the organized crime corrupting everything, decade after decade, for Centuries, then the interests of majority would be represented in a real democracy. They would control their currency for the benefit of all citizens. Almost all the documents that make up the various constitutions of the so-called "democracies" made control of currency a public power. None of those explicitly said that the government should give away the power to make money out of nothing to private banks. However, that is what has actually happened throughout the Anglo-American world, and has also been forced to happen almost everywhere else. Each country had a unique history whereby that transpired ... However, the basic transformation was to make fake democracies become false fronts for REAL plutocracies. The power of the plutocrats then manifested as fascism or corporatism, etc. ... American history is the most interesting example of the destruction of their republic through the rise of the international banksters taking back control. Without President Andrew Jackson, and a few other lesser examples of the people successfully fighting back, then the American story would have long ago been much more dismal. Whether the American people can ever again "kill the bank," as Jackson did, remains to be seen. Unfortunately, doing that now would seem to require a prodigious series of political miracles!

What REAL plutocracy actually trivialized was democracy. Pointing that out is NOT trivial. It is the single most important social fact! It is a classic Bizarro Mirror World assertion to say that the REALITY of plutocratic control of society, through control of its money supply, and the use of that money to buy up control of the mass media, and to influence political processes in all other ways, is "trivial" and "adds very little to the discourse."

However, like I said it previous posts, that runaway fascist plutocracy juggernaut is now so dominant and out-of-control, that talking about it at all seems trivial, since the plutocrats CAN make money out of nothing, and already own and control all the major social institutions, which adds up to be worth countless trillions, while their opposition is mostly broke and broken down.

Inside America it has gotten so extremely bad that the voting machines have been privatized, and one can no longer even trust the citizens' votes to be properly counted!
leonAzul
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:14:00 PM

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I understand ALCOA is running a special on tin foil this week.
RuthP
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 2:07:29 PM

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HWNN1961 wrote:
Aristotle...hmmm, must have been on a bad day, or he referred to direct or "pure" democracy. Where I come from money and power have always gone hand-in-hand...and it's only been getting worse lately...

Applause Applause Applause
Greek democracy was a direct democracy (at least, as long as you were an adult male citizen).
excaelis
Posted: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 5:47:26 PM

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" Slightly deceased ' is interesting. Atrophied, perhaps ? Democracy seems to work fairly well in small communities, but gets less effective as the society becomes larger and more frangibly self-interested. Peace, Order and Good Government. Well, two out of three ain't bad, Radi. And paying the lowest tuition in the country can't be so bad.
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