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dusty
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:59:44 PM

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My rant wasn't directed at you David, it was due to my feelings regarding the the generally accepted meaning behind the biblical story of Adam and Eve. I believe the misinterpretation of this story is responsible for a very hostile and more so very wrong attitude towards females. What makes this so dangerous is that it goes unrecognized, or at least denied.

And now I feel like I need to renter my comment as I feel pretty strongly about this particular bible story.

the comment I alluded to:


A serious problem that I have with the interpretations taught to children in church, and not just the “In the beginning” verses, but with the whole canonical edition, is why keep the stories that were obviously parables, parables?

For subjects that the vocabulary was available to do the subject justice, I believe it is a mistake to use parables.

Are we honestly still, in this day and age, of the mindset that we will kill each other in war over the words, condemn people and be consciously directly responsible for the affliction upon them that makes their lives, a life of torture when they do nothing wrong but love the “wrong” gender.

Who knows what was written or how it was written before the editors made it “fit” for public consumption. Don’t get me wrong, the FCC has nothing but good intentions, and they may have very well prevented more atrocities, prevented more war and destruction at the hands of man than all the bloodshed some of us already protest there was too much.

There are many places on the web where not long after I arrive and find the space enjoyable there is soon such vile and mean-spirited complete lack of respect for no good reason. An attack on what another holds sacred. So if that is what the G-rated version of the edited written works of God prevents, I have no problem accepting that as THE BOOK in order for there to be only one series in circulation.

But when it comes to studying it, when an honest soul wishes to learn the meaning of the words, pardon my French but why in the F*** do authorities continue to shovel the convoluted garbage down their throats? Who gave them permission to not deliver what was promised when they DID print knock and the door will open, “Ask and you shall receive”?

Now I will already have to state the disclaimer that if church authorities honestly, as in full heartedly believe the interpretations they teach, 100% without a doubt, then go ahead and teach what you have already been teaching. But if that is truth, they would have never torched all other words, but they did, man did it, not GOD, man not owning up to what was done is the main reason (and a false one at that as far as I believe) that created this humongous leap of faith. The Truth in God's word does not now and has never needed any help from man by embellishing details and omitting others, so that readers will be "convinced." They had the best intentions, and I probably would have done the same thing as I consider myself to be faithful. But I would like to think that I would be responsible enough to not take secrets that will effect the world to my grave. Man created the ambiguity from the get go, but I will give the benefit of the doubt and trust it was an unforeseeable mistake. Instead of trusting God that many of these “hard to discuss” when being completely honest about it subjects is the only way to not have the words so ambiguous. NOBODY DESIRES TO HAVE TO FACE RESPONSIBILITY, NOBODY LOOKS FORWARD TO TALKING ABOUT SUBJECTS THEY WOULD RATHER NOT.

But until we do, nothing will get better. There will be heated arguments, but until mankind grows a spine, and come back and admits when he and she are wrong on some counts or acknowledges where the opposition was right, nothing gets better. Nothing will ever get better as long as we have this false belief that honesty is taboo and must be forsaken in order to obtain and end result of a just, righteous world according to righteous law, which translates to justifying corrupt means.

Which will only ever yield a corrupt end.

So why then do we beat around the bush with the story of the fruit, and eating it, and obtaining knowledge that GOD had been keeping hidden?

Why not the story of puberty, and God telling us for our own Good, to abstain from sex until we were ready for what would be a night and day difference in regards to responsibility from the result of that intercourse? How do you explain to juveniles that the experience of fucking is enjoyable, but before condoms appeared doing so will likely lead to pregnancy and that it can either lead to an expansion of love and understanding when the child is raised appropriately but can also be the creation of a human so confused and angry and vengeful if we do not act responsibly in raising our children?

They didn’t have the vocabulary to put into words, that each child is the two halves, genetically speaking (I don’t won’t to piss anyone off with my foreign views of the first temporal marriage, that of Soul to Flesh from the connection of two halves of one Soul connecting through the flesh) when God made two out of one, their offspring births from the two, creates an newly rejoined ONE. But through God’s miraculous plan that One child, is still only in spirit a Half in a sense, and is born with in inherent need for companionship, and overwhelming urge to find what fulfills us. But when Found, it is a treasure, it is a joy which is NOT evil, was never a sin, was meant to be a joy that is a treasure, although a treasure that the odds of it being spoiled are greatly increased when the sacred find is not held as being sacred.

The church authorities can teach any interpretation they want, but as church authorities they are and will be held to a higher responsibility which any failings of and they will be held accountable. For they influence countless lives with their interpretations. The same as I will be for those I influence. But when I influence others understanding of biblical words it will never be in parable, esp when we have correct vocabulary to aid in complicated explanations, and are supposedly advanced enough to discuss important issues and concepts free from denial because we understand the importance of young ones understanding life and how important it is for them to not be confused. Confusion doesn’t result in a respect for differences when they are in regards to sacredness. But when people understand what the hell they are talking about, THAT is typically when respect for what others hold sacred translate to respect from others, what you hold sacred.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 3:40:29 PM
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Ms. B. Have wrote:
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I'll tip my hat to Mary and Peter, get to know them

Why to wait until you are in Heaven to know them? Use your time here on earth to know the roots of your religion, and start to understand what you try to believe!

Well, for one, I believe that I understand what I believe (and by the way, I don't try to believe).

In addition, I would have you know that I think that there are too many assumptions being made throughout the whole documentary. I'm not going to believe just anything that makes it to television or youtube or any other media. Just because they say something doesn't make it true, even if they think it is. That's called "Confident Speculation," and is a logical fallacy in itself.

Also, I will not believe that Jesus was:
1) married
2) having sexual relations with a woman
3) loved Mary more than the other disciples

I'm sorry if I come across as sexist, because I'm not. I am merely stating my beliefs, as you have done.

Side note: Wouldn't it be funny if we both got to Heaven, and Jesus was just standing there laughing and said "You were both so terribly wrong!" And then went on to explain why?
almostfreebird
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:51:46 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I am a Christian, and I am going to Heaven, even though I do not believe the non-canonical scriptures.



I am not a Christian.
Do you think that I can go to Heaven?








Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:07:10 PM
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I suppose it depends on your definition of Christian. I did not say that I was going to Heaven BECAUSE I was a Christian, I said that I am going to Heaven AND I'm a Christian.
Scripture says "Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31

I believe that one must simply believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that He died on the cross to save us from our sins. Also, that He rose from the dead 3 days later. If you put your trust and faith in Him, then I have no doubt that you'll go to Heaven.
almostfreebird
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:20:16 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
If you put your trust and faith in Him, then I have no doubt that you'll go to Heaven.




So you have doubt about my qualification to be able to go to heaven because I am not a Christian, then where do you think I would go when I died.








GeorgeV
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:09:17 PM
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.
I am George and I approve of this interpretation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC6UrMTC73A
.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 3:02:52 AM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
Scripture says "Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:30-31

I believe that one must simply believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and that He died on the cross to save us from our sins. Also, that He rose from the dead 3 days later. If you put your trust and faith in Him, then I have no doubt that you'll go to Heaven.


Now the problem is: Jesus never said this! He never said that he was God, he never said that we had to believe him and he never said that Salvation comes from “Believe”!

Jesus teached: “Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.’
You do not have to be a Christian to follow this command.

You are totally missing the point here due to an awful lack of knowledge about the history of your religion and how, when, and by who these texts were written.

Seek and you will find.

Ray41
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 7:25:16 AM

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Ms.B.Have wrote:
Jesus teached: “Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.
You do not have to be a Christian to follow this command.



So Ms. B. Have, my belief that being a good humanitarian is more important than religious belief gives me a better chance of getting Paul's permission to enter through the 'Pearly gates' than that of a self indulgent religious follower?Think
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 10:55:12 AM
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Ray41 wrote:
So Ms. B. Have, my belief that being a good humanitarian is more important than religious belief gives me a better chance of getting Paul's permission to enter through the 'Pearly gates' than that of a self indulgent religious follower?Think


Yes mister Ray41, but forget Paul here. A little Christian history in a nutshell:

Jesus was a Jew, He was born a Jew and died a Jew. His disciples and followers were all Jews, born as Jews and died as Jews. Baptism in the days of Jesus was a Jewish ritual, and a baptized Jew stayed a Jew after baptism.

Jesus never started an other religion or founded another church appart from Judaism. The first Christians were and stayed Jews, and Jesus was a Jewish teacher who taught Jews a better and new understanding of their religion. This is a truth many later not-Jewish Christians do not want to know anymore. The concept that Jesus or one of his apostles would have founded a new so called “Christian church” apart from Judaism is a historical lie.

In a nutshell, the main teaching of Jesus was:

"Love God with whole your heart, love your neighbor like yourself, and you will be forgiven like you forgive others. If you do that, you will enter the Kingdom of God."

Jesus never said he was God, he even opposed that idea, and he never said that his followers had to accept him as their savior to be saved. The idea that Jesus is God was to his apostles as weird as to us the idea that Obama is God. Jesus said that he was the son of God, but he also taught that every human being who follows the law of God is a son of God. Jesus never claimed that he was the only son of God.

This made the teachings of Jesus so universal that it also could be taught to gentiles, who had not to be conversed to Judaism to become a follower of Jesus. Therefore in the beginning there were Jewish Christians and gentile Christians, but not a “Christian church” as we know now.

So in fact you do not have to be, or call yourself a “Christian” to be saved, God doesn't give a damn about churches and religion, He is a God of every living creature no matter to what church that creature belongs, we are judged by the way we live, not by which pope or pastor we obey or to which church we pay tax. Jesus was teaching how we have to live to be living in accordance to the law of God, no matter to what religion we belong. But Jesus taught this to Jews, because he was accidentally a Jew himself.


The misunderstanding that Jesus is God and has to be worshipped to be saved, came into existence much later among the followers of the teachings of Saul of Tarsus, and the so called “proto-orthodox Christians” who became the founders of the Roman Church and Orthodox Church about three ages after Jesus death.

This Saul of Tarsus became later known as the “apostle” Paul, but Paul was not an apostle, he never met Jesus, was never taught by Jesus and after his conversion he started to teach a corrupted version of the teachings of Jesus, what brought him in serious conflict with the true Apostles, the 12 who were taught by Jesus.

Quote:
Wikipedia:
F. C. Baur (1792–1860), professor of theology at Tübingen in Germany, the first scholar to critique Acts and the Pauline Epistles, and founder of the Tübingen School of theology, argued that Paul, as the "Apostle to the Gentiles", was in violent opposition to the original 12 Apostles. Baur considers the Acts of the Apostles were late and unreliable. This debate has continued ever since, with Adolf Deissmann (1866–1937) and Richard Reitzenstein (1861–1931) emphasising Paul's Greek inheritance and Albert Schweitzer stressing his dependence on Judaism.

Among the critics of Paul the Apostle was Thomas Jefferson who wrote that Paul was the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus." Christian anarchists, such as Leo Tolstoy and Ammon Hennacy, take a similar view.


Because Paul had many followers in Rome, who later founded the Roman church based more on the teachings of Paul than on the teachings of Jesus, Paul was declared an Apostle by his own followers.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 1:13:53 PM
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Ms. B. Have wrote:

Jesus teached: “Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.’
You do not have to be a Christian to follow this command.


Actually, you're missing the first part of that verse. It is "And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”" - Luke 10:27

In addition, "Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” " - John 10:30
So Jesus DOES say that He is God.

“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.” - John 8:24
"There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.” - Acts 4:12
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... - - John 1:1 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," - John 1:14"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." - 1 John 5:11-13

So Scripture DOES tell us that salvation comes from believing in Him.


Now, almostfreebird asked where I think he would go when he died. Almostfreebird, do you mean where would you go if you had put your faith in Jesus? Because the answer is Heaven. If you haven't put your faith in Jesus Christ, then I believe that you will be put in hell, where the Bible says "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 3:46:32 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
Ms. B. Have wrote:

Jesus teached: “Love your neighbour as yourself." There is no commandment greater than these.’
You do not have to be a Christian to follow this command.

Actually, you're missing the first part of that verse. It is "And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”" - Luke 10:27

Yes, I left that away deliberately, because too many Chritians interchange God here with Jesus to proof that you have to be a Christian to follow this commandment. But God here is Universal and not only the God of Christians who believe that Jesus is God.

Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
So Scripture DOES tell us that salvation comes from believing in Him.

You may fool yourself if you want, but not me.

If you think that everything in the Gospel is true, and that every word put in the mouth of Jesus is what he said, than you are completely WRONG!

If you say that the new testament is the “Word of God”, than theologues will tell that God must be a rattlebrain with a Multiple Personality Disorder problem, because He did not give us 1 clear word, but about 1000 different and even conflicting copies of His word. We have no original manuscripts of any of the Gospels only many copies of copies of copies, and they are all different, full of mistakes and deliberately made changes, and because of that we do not know for sure what exactly was the content of the originals.

When it comes to the question what Jesus said about his relationship with God the Father, the Gospel of John is known as the most unreliable source. The Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John, but written and probably later edited and changed, by “believers” who believed that Jesus was God, and needed a document to proof that. Most scholars who studied this question agree that the quotes of Jesus you are referring to in your post, are never said by Jesus himself, but put into his mouth long after he was death.

The Gospel of John is written in another tradition than the other so called “Synoptic” Gospels and is considered to be very unreliable when it comes to know what the historical Jesus really taught specially when it comes to the question of his divinity.

Quote:
Wikipedia

According to the majority viewpoint for most of the 20th century, Jesus' teaching in John is largely irreconcilable with that found in the Synoptics, and scholars consider the Synoptics to be more accurate representations of the teaching of the historical Jesus. The teachings of Jesus in John are distinct from those found in the synoptic gospels. Thus, since the 19th century many historical Jesus scholars have argued that only one of the two traditions could be authentic

While a large number of 20th century biblical critics argue that the teaching found in John does NOT go back to the historical Jesus, they usually agree that gospel is not entirely without historical value.

Some scholars today believe that parts of John represent an independent historical tradition from the synoptics, while other parts represent later traditions. The Gospel was probably shaped in part by increasing tensions between synagogue and church, or between those who believed Jesus was the Messiah and those who did not.


If it was that simple as you believe Taliesin ap Elphin, than we would all believe the same, and there would not be so many different Christian churches. The problem is that it is not that simple but very complicated to know what Jesus actually taught his followers, because the New Testament is for sure the most corrupted “Holy Book” ever written in human history and not a reliable historical source to know what Jesus actually did and said. To find that out you have to study a hell lot more than just read the Bible on a Sunday afternoon.

Hope1
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 4:25:50 PM
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Talie sin Quotes : "See, but that's just it. The Bible doesn't teach that. Maybe yours does, but I believe Genesis when it says that the woman's desire will be for her husband (her husband's role), but he will rule over her. Also, in Timothy (I've quoted it in a previous comment), Paul states that men are to lead women. It says that all throughout the Bible. And if your Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Mary doesn't say that, then I'm afraid that I can't believe them, because we are to represent Christ in this sense: the husband represents God in the sense that he is the headship. Women represent the Church, as well as Jesus (in the sense that they're helpers)/."

"Women were not created to rule men - they were created to help men."
::::

Talie sin,

And what is with the part about multiplying pain in childbirth! Of course there I'll be pain. It is like s.. a pumpkin!
::::

If you insist upon taking this trope literally, and want the male always to be the head - then the female could be the neck - and turn the head anyway she wants! Drool

(Of course, I do not believe in the writer's original tenet, that man is god-like and superior. Who gave him that idea? Obviously, it was a male writer of this section of the history book.)

Also, I, as a female, would not mind you (plural male you) being the leader all the time - if we were in a minefield. Whistle




Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 5:26:06 PM
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Very honest. Thank you, Hope1. Man is in no way God-like OR superior. There had to be someone to lead, and God chose Man to lead. In addition, being the leader doesn't make you superior. It just means you have a different job. But thank you for being honest.

As for you, Ms. B. Have: Tell your beloved theologues that the blind can only hear what others tell them. Only God Himself can make you see. The Holy Spirit has come into my life, so I KNOW (yes, I said KNOW) my God. And let me tell you this: I will NOT stand for anyone who declares the heresy that you have declared. That Jesus is not the Son of God? That the Gospel was probably made by people who just wanted something to believe in? I'm not fooling myself, and i know I'm not fooling you. Satan stalks about like a roaring lion, seeking whomever he may devour. I am sorry for making this a technically opinionated explosion, but I'm sorry for you, because you have been terribly deceived by the Darkness in this world. It is apparent neither I nor you will change each others' beliefs, so I say that we should simply let it rest and offer it to the LORD.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:00:25 PM
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Taliesin, if your Holy Spirit is making you believe all kind of nonsense that is in conflict with historical facts about Jesus and his teachings, than my Holy Spirit tells me that your Holy Spirit is not a Holy Spirit but a very Silly Spirit.




Hope1, that idea about that minefield..... maybe we could work that out some more, to put it in practise somehow?
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:12:09 PM
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Historical assumptions to be precise.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:21:35 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
Historical assumptions to be precise.

You don't know where you are talking about, because you never studied it, so how do you know?

Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:27:58 PM
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I suppose from your point of view I cannot, in all reality, truly know that, can I?

However, I can know that the canonical scriptures have survived the bibliographic, the internal, AND the external tests with flying colors. So, I suppose I CAN know that I can trust my Bible, can I?
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:09:23 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
However, I can know that the canonical scriptures have survived the bibliographic, the internal, AND the external tests with flying colors. So, I suppose I CAN know that I can trust my Bible, can I?

To tell you the truth, I never heard about the bibliographic, the internal, and the external tests of the Bible before you mentioned. So I Googled to get some information about it and I was complete astonished! I almost fell off my chair!

This kind of test have nothing to do with any form of serious research, they are a complete fraud, and a kind of test which even Grimms' Fairy Tales can pass with flying colours, if you want to.

This kind of test are not more trustworthy than the test they used in the middle ages to proof that women were witches!

No serious self-respecting theologue will spoil his/her time on this kind of nonsense, and that must be the reason that I never heard of it.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:20:25 PM
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I don't need a self-deceived "theologue" to tell me what to believe. I don't need any tests run on the Bible to dictate what I should believe. I believe, because I have experienced the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Canon is truth. And this is the truth that I follow. I will never follow a blind person such as yourself or your "theologues."
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:31:53 PM
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almostfreebird wrote:
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
If you put your trust and faith in Him, then I have no doubt that you'll go to Heaven.




So you have doubt about my qualification to be able to go to heaven because I am not a Christian, then where do you think I would go when I died?












It's alright, I go to hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC6UrMTC73A





Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:37:27 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin, please feel free to believe what you want, but if you do not want to change what you believe, than my advice is not to discus your believe with someone who has an other opinion about that, based on historical facts and theological studies, if you are not interested in this information.

Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 8:45:34 PM

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Miss B and Taliesin,
looking at your debate here; you are not great examples of Christian charity and tolerance. Sad to see.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 9:09:22 PM
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Jyrkkä Jätkä as I said before, if this is not your “game to play” and you never take part of the discussion in this section, then why always those presumptuous and pedantic comments from you? I know your country has the best school system in the world, but no one is asking for a Finnish teacher here! Just stay away from this section if you don't like it.

This topic is about religion, and discussing religion for people who believe can often be very personal and emotional, and you should respect that, that is also a matter of tolerance.

DavidScott
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 10:33:11 PM
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Well, I don't believe, but I've enjoyed a few of your comments, Ms. But sice I don't believe, did I start this topic in the wrong forum?
DavidScott
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 10:35:15 PM
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Ms. B. Have wrote:
Taliesin, if your Holy Spirit is making you believe all kind of nonsense that is in conflict with historical facts about Jesus and his teachings, than my Holy Spirit tells me that your Holy Spirit is not a Holy Spirit but a very Silly Spirit.




Hope1, that idea about that minefield..... maybe we could work that out some more, to put it in practise somehow?


The above picture is indicative of how I think the typical Christian spends their life. Let me put the stress, however, on "typical."
Hope1
Posted: Friday, June 1, 2012 11:22:46 PM
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Talie sin,

I realize we are off the original topic as to whether or not Adam and Eve were really like Romeo and Juliet. I can not open the video.
It is very interesting to think of a young couple alone in the world, in love, etc. having a spat and she/he says 'I wouldn't marry you if you were the last man/woman on earth.' Actually, I started to say, I wonder who else was there to write down this story. But the former sentence just wrote itself. Lol
(Who knows who did what when and why in this story.)

But because of your digression that I referred to in my last post, I am just wondering if you realize what pressure you put on men by always expecting them to be the leader, to be strong, to bring home the bacon, to never express their feelings, but to be always the protector? Why does one person always need to be the leader? Why can you not take turns according to abilities with the problem at hand? Is this concept of man as the head, really a romantic idea, a religious allegory, not a practica solution? Just a way to explain how the church is supposed to work? Using words and ideas of their time?

Do you ever wonder what all the reasons are why women have a longer life expectancy?

I originally thought I was in Literature and stopped reading when I realized some of you are having a serious disagreement with Biblical quotes etc
But I do notice some rather unkind words. I did mean my post as a joke to lighten things up a bit. But it does have some truth in it.

PS - as to the chosen few being the only ones going to heaven, I always rather Irreverently wondered if God is so all powerful, why he needs to take attendance.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 4:00:01 AM
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DavidScott wrote:
But sice I don't believe, did I start this topic in the wrong forum?

You asked a question about Adam and Eve? An old religious story found in Mesopotamia and later copied into the books of Moses....so what is exactly your question here? If you ask a question about love with a reference to Adam and Eve, than that is a religious question, no matter what you believe. And if you say "I do not believe" than that is a religious answer on a religious question. But that is a typical problem of atheist, they deny that their religion is a religion, believing that their believe is not a believe. If you ask me just another form of self-deception.

DavidScott wrote:
The above picture is indicative of how I think the typical Christian spends their life.

And could you tell me what a “typical Christian” is and how this species spends their life?

Because I know an awful lot of Christians but I never met a “typical” one and those I know spend their life all different.
almostfreebird
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 5:05:54 AM
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Joined: 4/22/2011
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The idea that pagans, heretics and heathen are not the ones who could go to heaven sounds arrogant and it is the same as "If you want to go to heaven, you must come to us", as if it is one of the means for converting, proselytizing, at least from the view point of non-Christian.


Jyrkkä Jätkä, this thread is not bad, there are some informative posts.









Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 12:05:49 PM
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To all concerned (specifically, Ms. B. Have): I know that I can often be a hot-head, and especially so when involved in the topic of religious beliefs. I am the type of person who is often very passionate - far too often I am TOO passionate. I apologize for any offensive remarks I might have made.

Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Miss B and Taliesin,
looking at your debate here; you are not great examples of Christian charity and tolerance. Sad to see.

I have to agree with you, Jyrkkä. I am trying to work on increasing the length of my currently short fuse. I suppose that this thread in it's entirety is a fantastic example of why we needed Christ to die for us, huh?
almostfreebird
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 12:36:04 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I suppose that this thread in it's entirety is a fantastic example of why we needed Christ to die for us, huh?



What does that mean?
Could you explain?


Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 1:02:00 PM
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What I meant by that, is that it supports Romans 3:23 where it says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Basically explaining how we're all sinners, and none of us deserve eternal life in Heaven with God. But "God demonstrates His own love for us in this: That while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8 That verse shows that because Christ died, we can be forgiven of our sins, "wiping the slate clean," so to speak. This thread has been a great example of how much we need Christ and forgiveness from God.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 1:56:03 PM
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Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
This thread has been a great example of how much we need Christ and forgiveness from God.

With that you are telling us that there have been done sinful things on this thread where we need God's forgiveness for?
You like quotes from the (canonical) scriptures, let me give you some:

Quote:
[Jesus] made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. (John 2:15 )

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:51 )

[Jesus] said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."  "That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22:36,38)

When Mary had said this, she fell silent, since it was to this point that the Savior had spoken with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, Say what you wish to say about what she has said. I at least do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are strange ideas. Peter answered and spoke concerning these same things. He questioned them about the Savior: Did He really speak privately with a woman and not openly to us? Are we to turn about and all listen to her? Did He prefer her to us? Then Mary wept and said to Peter, My brother Peter, what do you think? Do you think that I have thought this up myself in my heart, or that I am lying about the Savior? Levi answered and said to Peter, Peter you have always been hot tempered. Now I see you contending against the woman like the adversaries.(Gospel of Mary chapter 9)


Now please, can you explain what there is “sinful” about a disagreement and a discussion, even when such a discussion sometimes becomes emotional and irrational, and now and then full of nonsense? What has that to do with sin?
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 2:36:55 PM
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When a person allows themselves to dwell on anger, or allows unrighteous anger to creep in, then they are sinning. Maybe you weren't sinning, but I have no doubt that I was not behaving in a God-glorifying manner. And for that I apologized.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:18:30 PM
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Joined: 4/6/2012
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Neurons: 686
Hee Taliesin, you love God, you love Jesus and you love the Bible, they are important for you. And then you got the feeling that what you loved was attacked, and you defended what you love, became emotional, even angry, but your motif was protecting what you love. That is no sin. Anger is a normal emotion, and if we are angry we should not suppress that too much, because than we are not honest anymore towards ourself and the other. It is not the emotion, or the words we speak that is sinful, but our motif. If we dwell in anger out of hate, than that is evil and sin, if we are upset out of love than it is good. Maybe not wise... if we do or say stupid things out of love... but not sinful. I would like to forgive you, but there is nothing to forgive here. So cheer up mate.. give me a punch!

Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Saturday, June 2, 2012 3:23:56 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
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Location: United States
*punch*
But seriously - if I ever say something offensive, don't hesitate to slap me around.
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