mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest
What would you think about this? Options
DavidScott
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:15:08 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/2/2012
Posts: 711
Neurons: 2,076
In Milton's Paradise Lost, he purports that Adam ate of the apple for his love of Eve, that her fate, would be his fate. I can think of no greater love. I think this is the essence of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6XZsau7CSk
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:32:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Not sure I agree with that David. According to the record all that Adam had in the way of physical things and life propsects were provided by, and rested with, his heavenly father. His first allegiance was surely to God.

It seems to me if we take this as read then he was acting selfishly in putting Eve first and not out of a pure love for her but out of consideration of his own preferences.

I am sure you know that the particular fruit is never mentioned in the Genesis account or anywhere else in the biblical record.
DavidScott
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:44:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/2/2012
Posts: 711
Neurons: 2,076
Oh, no, no, Percival, I don't mean that the fruit was specifically an apple...it was, however, fairly specific in Milton's work, that Adam sacrificed his soul such that he would be in accord with his mate...this, to me, is the height of nuptial love...I guess that there is a higher love, or may exist a higher love, which is the love of God...I'm too much of a romantic.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:53:43 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
I'm going to say this, but I will warn you: I am probably going to come across as elementary. But here it is: If Adam had really loved Eve as much as you would suggest, David, then I think that he should not have stood by her and allowed her to eat the fruit. But instead, he watched her eat it (in silence), and then he himself ate it.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 10:00:50 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I'm going to say this, but I will warn you: I am probably going to come across as elementary. But here it is: If Adam had really loved Eve as much as you would suggest, David, then I think that he should not have stood by her and allowed her to eat the fruit. But instead, he watched her eat it (in silence), and then he himself ate it.


Are you telling me that Adam was wiser than Eve, but he did not love her enough to share his wisdom with her, and then he became as stupid as she was? Doesn't make sense to me!

I'm sure there was no woman in paradise Adam loved more than his sweetheart Eve!

pedro
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 10:34:05 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 13,057
Neurons: 63,022
I would never accept food from a stranger, especially a snake.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 11:35:56 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
I think Eve was much wiser than Adam, and because of that God gave her the knowledge of Good and Evil before Adam, it are the women who have to teach the little boys how to become a man!

Not so? Then how could Eve be disobedient to God before the fall?

percivalpecksniff
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 12:46:08 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Take more water with it, and behave miss behave
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:13:41 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." - 1 Timothy 2:15
She wasn't wiser than Adam, because she was deceived and sinned first. "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” - Genesis 3:16
Women were not created to rule men - they were created to help men. I'm not saying that women are inferior, because though they have different God-given responsibilities than the men, they are still equal. Different and equal. However, Adam was given the responsibilities of taking care of the family, leading, providing, etc.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:16:33 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,130
Neurons: 588,577
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
Owlee Mouses!
You guys are purely hilarious.
Eh?
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:36:09 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Take more water with it, and behave miss behave

Can I take that as a “I don't know B. Have, this riddle is too hard for me to solve!”

Otherwise I would like you to explain to me how Eve, while still a state of innocent obedience to God, could have taken the decision to misbehave and disobey God before she had swallowed that forbidden thing from that tree. Because before you can eat you first have to decide to open your mouth and take a bite.

At the mean time maybe you also can answer the question: If there was a tree of knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden of Eden before the fall of man, God had knowledge of Good and Evil before the fall of man. If God created this the tree of knowledge, Evil somehow existed before the fall. Then who created this Evil and brought the knowledge of it to Paradise?

If it was “Evil” that Adam eat from that tree and followed Eve, It was not love but obedience, because evil does not come from love but from obedience.
[b]
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:51:01 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
Ms. B. Have wrote:

If it was “Evil” that Adam eat from that tree and followed Eve, It was not love but obedience, because evil does not come from love but from obedience.

Evil does not come from love or obedience. It comes from rebellion. She took the decision to misbehave (by the way, I like that play on words Ms. B. Have) and disobey God before she swallowed it, because she (this is quite a logical fallacy, but I'm going for it) made the decision. She chose to eat it because she wanted to. She, in that instant, did not care about what God had commanded her. She saw, she wanted, and she indulged, rebelling against God and requiring the utmost punishment. Yes, evil existed before the fall of man. Just look at the story of the conversion of Lucifer to Satan. He thought himself more powerful than God, and rebelled against Him. God, of course, crushed him and threw him down into hell. The serpent (probably Satan or one of his demons) came and tempted Eve. She succumbed. Now, because of her decision (as well as Adam's consent to eat after her), we live a life filled with the consequences. Famine, pain, sadness, disease, death, etc. Christ died for us to save us from this life of sin and living death. Evil has entered our world because of a decision made at the beginning of time.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 2:30:13 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Sounds nice but it does not answer the Question. Someone in a state of innocence and without knowledge of Good and Evil can not be held responsible for her decisions. If God is a good God He should have forgiven Adam and Eve from the point of view that they did not know what they were doing without knowledge of good and evil. The punishment they were given contradicts the fact that they had not yet knowledge of good and evil when they made a wrong decision.

And who created evil? God? Than our God is not a good God but an evil God, otherwise He would not have created evil and put the knowledge of it within the reach of his creation. And who let that evil snake into the Garden of Eden? Why did God keep Satan not out of that place? By doing so it was God Himself in the first place who can be held responsible for what went wrong in Paradise. Before the fall of man God can be held responsible for everything, not Adam and Eve who were still in a state of innocent obedience to God without knowledge of evil.

Another option is that we probably totally misunderstand this parable.
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 2:38:21 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
They did not understand what evil was, but they knew that God did not want them to eat it. And, like a child that has been told not to touch the china, but does it anyway, so did Adam and Eve eat the fruit God told them not to. They did not understand why he had commanded it, they weren't sure what would happen if they did, but they knew they weren't supposed to.

Who created evil? Nothing. Just as darkness is the absence of light, and cold is the absence of heat, so is evil simply the absence of good. If there is not good, then there is evil. Therefore, one could understand that Adam and Eve introduced evil into the world, because their actions were absent of good. I cannot speak for God's reasoning for not keeping the serpent out of the Garden, but I do trust that it was for His glory, and our good. "Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases." - Psalm 115:3
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 4:20:07 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
Who created evil? Nothing. Just as darkness is the absence of light, and cold is the absence of heat, so is evil simply the absence of good. If there is not good, then there is evil.

Indeed darkness does not exist, it is just the absence of light. Darkness is nothing, it has no mass or energy, we cannot measure it or change it into something else as electricity or temperature, and it changes nothing, like light does.

But if evil would be like darkness, not created but only the absence of good, than evil does not exist. Than also Satan does not exist or is just "nothing" and hell is created by ourself. If evil is not created by God than evil is like darkness “nothing” and mankind is, if punished by God, punished by God for “nothing”.

If that is true and evil and sin are not created, their existence is an illusion, and than salvation is nothing else than breaking that illusion and changing it for the awereness of truth, like you can make darkness disapear with light. In that case salvation is getting the knowledge (Gnosis) of truth. Evil disapeares with the knowledge of Good. That is what many Gnostics believe, as well as Buddhists. See Enlightenment

If you believe that evil is not created by God but just the absence of good, Taliesin ap Elphin, my congratulations Applause and welcome to the club! A new Gnostic is born!

Now you TaE and me go read the Gospel of Mary here, look what Jesus told Mary:

"The Savior replied, "There is no such thing as sin; rather you yourselves are what produces sin when you act in accordance with the nature of adultery, which is called 'sin.' For this reason, the Good came among you, pursuing the good which belongs to every nature. It will set it within its root."

Then he continued. He said, "This is why you get sick and die: because you love what deceives you. Anyone who thinks should consider these matters! Matter gave birth to a passion which has no Image
(does not exist) because it derives from what is contrary to nature(Contrary to Good). A disturbing confusion (Illusion)then occurred in the whole body. That is why I told you, 'Become content at heart, while also remaining discontent and disobedient;(to the illusionary world) indeed become contented and agreeable only in the presence of that other Image of nature.(Truth as opposite of illusion)' Anyone with two ears capable of hearing should listen!"(Gnosis)

You are close to enlightment Taliesin ap Elphin, a few more steps and you enter the Kingdom of God!

excaelis
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:46:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 10,965
Neurons: 32,652
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Okay. You're Adam. The only chick on the planet says eat the apple. What are you gonna do ? You may have named all the animals, but I'm pretty damn sure you don't wanna start dating any of 'em.
Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:56:25 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,282
Neurons: 166,401
I always wondered, "What if Adam didn't bite?"
Given this is a practical impossibility given the manipulative talents of women but, what if?
excaelis
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:30:17 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 10,965
Neurons: 32,652
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Evil was not the issue. Knowledge was.

@Epi : Ever been to a Star Trek convention ? That's what a world without sex looks like.
DavidScott
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:31:02 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/2/2012
Posts: 711
Neurons: 2,076
I've never been to a Star Trek convention, but I have been to a sci-fi convention, once, and once, also, to a comic book convention. There was "Truth" and "Knowledge" and "Wisdom" at that comic book convention surpassed the teachings of any church I have ever attended, catholic (in the general sense) or protestant.
I might comment on any number of posts here, nor did I ever imagine I would receive such response to a simple question, but I cannot quote all who, in my opinion, understand the will of God, and stand up to the truth behind the illusion, and so I will go with only Miss Behave: why would a good and gentle God who created all that exists, then create Evil, and all the ramifications there from?
The Old Testament places all of the blame for all of the ills of manikind on a choice made by a being created as an accessory to an initial creation who lacked for a partner, and while Lilith, give her her dues or don't, failed to fulfill these obligations, the rib taken from Adam, formed from primordial dust, was more perfect, in God's eyes, and yet again "besmirched" His concept of perfection...doesn't this just sound like some pissed off guy who can't get anything right and blames it all on women? Oh, for God's sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At least allow Adam the option to follow his beloved wife into the same hell she is denounced to for all of eternity!
(sorry, M. Behave, I meant to quote you and did not, there was great wisdom in your words, which I failed to repeat.)
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 7:45:42 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
DavidScott wrote:
At least allow Adam the option to follow his beloved wife into the same hell she is denounced to for all of eternity!
(sorry, M. Behave, I meant to quote you and did not, there was great wisdom in your words, which I failed to repeat.)

If all men would follow their wife as Adam followed Eve, we would be back in Paradise right now!

Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:31:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,282
Neurons: 166,401
DavidScott wrote:
why would a good and gentle God who created all that exists, then create Evil, and all the ramifications there from?

Simple, because God is bipolar.
Quote:
Rev. Dr. J. Henry Jurgens, a practicing psychiatrist and doctor of divinity at Yale University Divinity School, announced the historic diagnosis at a press conference.

Full Article
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:40:21 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
Ms. B. Have wrote:

If all men would follow their wife as Adam followed Eve, we would be back in Paradise right now!

See, but that's just it. The Bible doesn't teach that. Maybe yours does, but I believe Genesis when it says that the woman's desire will be for her husband (her husband's role), but he will rule over her. Also, in Timothy (I've quoted it in a previous comment), Paul states that men are to lead women. It says that all throughout the Bible. And if your Gospel of Thomas and Gospel of Mary doesn't say that, then I'm afraid that I can't believe them, because we are to represent Christ in this sense: the husband represents God in the sense that he is the headship. Women represent the Church, as well as Jesus (in the sense that they're helpers)/.
dusty
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 10:39:50 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,770
Neurons: 5,765
Sorry, for the original rant on your post David.

5/30/2012 at 2022 edited to:

I am sure Adam loved Eve in a way like no other, I believe the humans are are only half beings, when in regards to a wholeness, in a spiritual sense.

But I have an uncommon interpretation of the biblical story about the original sin, however the first sentence is very much how I view their love for each other.
DavidScott
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 2:03:43 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/2/2012
Posts: 711
Neurons: 2,076
If there was a rant here I missed it, Dusty, so no need for apologies!
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:24:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,032
Neurons: 606,300
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Ms.B.Have says "...You are close to enlightment Taliesin ap Elphin, a few more steps and you enter the Kingdom of God!..."

That's what the Lashkar-e-Taiba Controllers shouted to the fanatical terrorists in Mumbai in 2008 as they were killing innocent men, women and children.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:34:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,032
Neurons: 606,300
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." - 1 Timothy 2:15
She wasn't wiser than Adam, because she was deceived and sinned first. "To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” - Genesis 3:16
Women were not created to rule men - they were created to help men. I'm not saying that women are inferior, because though they have different God-given responsibilities than the men, they are still equal. Different and equal. However, Adam was given the responsibilities of taking care of the family, leading, providing, etc.


Thanks for all your posts TaE, but especially this one. It is sound, biblical teaching. I learned long ago not to argue theology with Ms. B. Have because she carries her own, handwritten version of the Bible around with her, and she will say anything for an arguement.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:08:21 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Ms.B.Have says "...You are close to enlightment Taliesin ap Elphin, a few more steps and you enter the Kingdom of God!..."
That's what the Lashkar-e-Taiba Controllers shouted to the fanatical terrorists in Mumbai in 2008 as they were killing innocent men, women and children.

Do you know how many innocent men women and children were tortured, killed and raped “In the name of Christ” the last two millennia jacobusmaximus? Not dozens but billions. That was, and still is, the fruit of not understanding the scriptures of the New Testament.

jacobusmaximus wrote:
Thanks for all your posts TaE, but especially this one. It is sound, biblical teaching. I learned long ago not to argue theology with Ms. B. Have because she carries her own, handwritten version of the Bible around with her, and she will say anything for an arguement.

I've studied Theology on University for six years, there I was taught how to know the difference between reality and nonsense if it comes to the scriptures and our believe. There I was taught what true and what false is about the stories we are told about our Christian history. After that I studied much more, not to find proof for my personal believe but to understand the physical and not-physical reality we live in. But if you want to keep your head in the sand for reality and deny historical facts so that the historical truth does not disturb the nonsense you are preaching about your Saviour, be my guest. I wont spoil my time anymore with the fairy tales you still believe in. If you want to be a blind man leaded by blind men than that is your choice.

My "handwritten bible" does not conflict with the knowledge theologues have about that bible, but your printed version does.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:45:27 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,032
Neurons: 606,300
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Ms.B.Have asks: "^...Do you know how many innocent men women and children were tortured, killed and raped “In the name of Christ” the last two millennia jacobusmaximus? Not dozens but billions. That was, and still is, the fruit of not understanding the scriptures of the New Testament..."

Yes, I do know, Ms. B. Have. None. You cannot do anything in the Name of Christ that Christ would not permit. You can say you do, but you are merely adding a lie to your sinful actions. The fact that you could ask such a question demonstrates that you are not, and never were, a serious student of Thgeology, but a beiever in fairy tales written to discredit God in Christ.
almostfreebird
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:51:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 2,812
Neurons: 7,024
Location: Japan
Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:22:53 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
jacobusmaximus wrote:

Thanks for all your posts TaE, but especially this one. It is sound, biblical teaching. I learned long ago not to argue theology with Ms. B. Have because she carries her own, handwritten version of the Bible around with her, and she will say anything for an arguement.

Thank you so much, Jacob, for your words of encouragement. I'm glad to know that we agree. Ms. B. Have: You say I'm "close to enlightenment," but in all actuality, I'm quite far from your view of enlightenment. I believe in Christ and His death and resurrection. I am a Christian, and I am going to Heaven, even though I do not believe the non-canonical scriptures. On a different note, I agree with Jacob and his perspective on the fact that nobody is killed in the name of Christ. Christ would never have told us to kill, plunder from, and/or rape someone who does not believe in Him.
almostfreebird
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:28:38 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 2,812
Neurons: 7,024
Location: Japan




"The world would be astonished

if it knew how great a proportion of its brightest ornaments,

of those most distinguished

even in popular estimation for wisdom and virtue,

are complete skeptic in religion."


-John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 8 May 1873)-







Ms. B. Have
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:55:38 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
jacobusmaximus wrote:
You cannot do anything in the Name of Christ that Christ would not permit.


Always when I write something you do not want to hear jacobus, you change the meaning of my words, put upside down what I said and accusing me of all kind of nonsense. If you cannot interpret my words right, then how should someone like you be able to interpret two-thousand year old scriptures right?

The crusades, Christians obeying Christian leaders plundering, torturing, raping and killing thousands of innocent Jews and Muslims, all legalized and approved by the church as the will of God based on an interpretation of the book you call “The word of God.”

The inquisition, Christians obeying Christian leaders plundering, torturing, raping and killing thousands of innocent Christians, all legalized and approved by the church as the will of God based on an interpretation of the book you call “The word of God.”

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.""Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own."
With this credo 20.000 innocent men, women and children of the city Béziers were slaughtered, commissioned by the Roman Catholic church.

The witch hunts, Christians obeying Christian leaders, torturing, and killing thousands of innocent Christians, all legalized and approved by the church as the will of God based on an interpretation of the book you call “The word of God.”

An awful lot of bloodshed done in history by Christians truly convinced that it was the will of God, because their Popes and priests told them so while pointing at the Bible! If you deny that you deny history and you deny the reality of your own religion.

Instead of denying it, it should teach us how dangerous it is to misinterpret and misunderstand the book we call the bible, and how dangerous it is to blindly trust and follow our Christian leaders.

That is why I have learned to think for myself instead of being like you: a Christian parrot repeating the credo's and dogmata of your church without understanding it.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:44:29 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I am a Christian, and I am going to Heaven....

Than I hope for you that Peter is on duty at Heavens gate when you arrive, because if Mary of Magdalene is watching the door she will not let you in before you have washed your mouth and have prayed 777 “Hail Mary's” as punishment for your disparaging attitude towards women!

Taliesin ap Elphin
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 11:23:39 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/17/2012
Posts: 54
Neurons: 106
Location: United States
Ms. B. Have wrote:
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I am a Christian, and I am going to Heaven....

Than I hope for you that Peter is on duty at Heavens gate when you arrive, because if Mary of Magdalene is watching the door she will not let you in before you have washed your mouth and have prayed 777 “Hail Mary's” as punishment for your disparaging attitude towards women!

I believe that women are of high worth, so do not twist my words, Ms. B. I merely stated that God has given men the responsibility to lead. In addition, I'm don't care who's watching the gate. If Peter's there, or Mary's there. Either way, I'm going to be let in by God himself. I'll tip my hat to Mary and Peter, get to know them, and then turn and fall on my face in complete adoration of God. There's nothing special about Mary. She's just a human that God used to accomplish His will.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 12:52:30 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Taliesin ap Elphin wrote:
I'll tip my hat to Mary and Peter, get to know them

Why to wait until you are in Heaven to know them? Use your time here on earth to know the roots of your religion, and start to understand what you try to believe!

Science of the Bible The Real Mary Magdalene


Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.