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Praise the Lord, my dog is a Catholic... Options
dusty
Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:58:12 PM

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All Dogs Go to Heaven

Your dog would have to be exceptional smart, to be a sinner. The only animal that I know of, that is not guaranteed a living in Heaven, is Homo sapien (possibly some Cetacea species, they say when toothed whales beach themselves, it is because they are all for one and one for all and if a family member of the same generation dies, they all stay together)

Often I believe that there is a distinct difference between a Soul and the Spirit. The Soul being much like each earthly person as an individual, and the Spirit of Holy Ghost there is only one of. Often I believe our Soul is very much a part of the physical world. And that this physically existing soul is more who we are then the flesh of the body. If this is true, we look more like Hyalinized thread of natural electrical conductors, Nerves. All other cells, and the organs they are assembled as, are part of this Earth, leased to us by our Mother. It is through our nerves, which create a physical network that enables our brain to be in contact with nearly every single cell and communicate with each one. And every cell has unconditionally given up control of their entire life in it's entirety to submission of us. So that when they all do their specialized job, in complete cooperation and selfless desires work together as one body. The same way that our soul maintains a constant physical contact with each and every cell, each of our souls has a connection to the Holy Ghost, The Spirit. And it can take some serious devotion to stay “tuned in” to that communication. All other animals, whom all have souls are as innocent as a newborn child and will not be held responsible for what happens during their physical life. The only animals that are held accountable, are those who have established a working connection with the Spirit. I say working because I do not believe that “just that connection” automatically opens an account record where doing wrong is recorded. There are many humans with very strong communication channels connected to the Spirit, but due to their disability they remain innocent, as do all children. But somewhere through life most of us reach a rite of passage, after which we our without a doubt responsible for what we do in this life, and we are responsible for maintaining a clear connection so that we can “hear” what is right and just, and discern the difference between right and wrong. Anger and hate clouds what we would otherwise know to be truth and righteousness.

The Earth is also known as Heaven, because it is to some. Right now and for quite some time it has been ready to shed the label of “Earth” and every child born could be born in Heaven. Too many people are still living in denial, the only thing that holds us back, is the people as a whole, those most responsible for the delay, is US. Nobody has more influential power to affect the daily business of all of Earth’s inhabitants than the United States. We have a heightened responsibility because of our position of such influence, power, and control. This is why I get so upset at those who govern here, yet because of their obliviousness to the responsibility, do the world a great disservice. Rationalizing a sense of entitlement, as if they have somehow earned their lot in life, when truthfully if they had earned it and understand the responsibility that comes with US leadership, there would be no hungry, unsheltered families anywhere in Heaven. They justify double standards and a general self centered belief system wherein the hoarding is needed in order to protect what would otherwise by stolen from us by wicked people. We have gotten more than a little bit out of control with this, and have become what we believed we were fighting against.

But yes, I believe your dog will without a doubt go to Heaven, no matter which denomination the fiflthy animal associates with.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 12:48:55 AM
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jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:48:26 AM

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SilvatungdaViel wrote:
"You have to accept the doctrine of the Trinity in order to understand that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. Even while Jesus was 'God in the flesh' in this world he was still God in Heaven. Father, Son and Holy Spirit were Three, but they were One. Unbelievable? Not if you are a Believer."


Why do you just assume that I don't accept it? Are you saying that by accepting the trinity that all the pieces of the puzzle will all fit together and remove all traces of doubt and I'll fall in line with yours and the churches dogmatic beliefs"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDiuQCz46dw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo2FnaoZXTQ


The first is good music, the second is good Television. If you look for this kind of stuff to enrich your spiritual life then you are going nowhere Silva. The Anglican priest assumes that those who compiled the Bible did so in ignorance, blissfully unaware that there were other 'Gospels' and sacred texts. Not so. The scholars who produced the books of the Bible read everything that was available and chose the books we now know as Scripture. Many more texts were regarded as apochryphal, and yet nore were discarded as being unworthy of inclusion in the canon of Scripture. Other great finds since then, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, have been thoroughly examined by today's scholars but have been shown to have nothing that adds to what is widely regarded as the Word of God. Cowboy Joe, of course, might just be right and all others wrong. After all, he has done the College Course.He will know it all, while we lesser mortals live in the dark.

I assume that you do not accept the Doctrine of the Trinity because you don't believe in the reality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the miraculous possibilities of the Three-in-One. We all live with our doubts about God but exercise faith in our walk with Him. Why should you be supplied with all the information required to remove all your doubt about everything you cannot understand, while everybody else has to walk by faith?

All who insist that dogs etc., have souls and go to heaven are making Jesus a liar. Jesus taught that we must ask him for salvation. Jesus also taught that not everything with a soul will go to heaven - only those who accept him as Saviour amnd Lord. Cats and dogs were made for this world for the benefit of mankind. It is in this world that we may love them and care for them. In the next world there will be greater things and a greater love.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:50:45 AM

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A quick afterthought. If dogs and cats go to Heaven, what about scorpions and rattlesnakes? And why not rats?
pedro
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:55:27 AM
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and what about bacteria?
almostfreebird
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:59:47 AM
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Do I have to sing Imagine again?

or Sympathy for the Devil?



dusty
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:54:25 AM

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I am pretty sure scorpions, rattle snakes and rats aren't figments of my imagination. I tend to believe, yes, they are part of Heaven.

Most definitely Pedro,bacteria have important roles here. Some very important roles. For nearly every type of environment, from hotsprings at near boiling temperature to frozen Arctic settings, there are species of bacteria that are right at home living in their niche.

But I have some untraditional views in the teachings of the bible. I do not believe that science contradicts the divine inspired words. I believe that the authors did the best they could with the terminology that was available to them in their day. But they didn't have words for genes and other complicated details that explain how our home was created. I haven't read the books in their original language but I do know that some people use the English word "side" when they speak of Eve being made from Adam's rib. And "side" might be a more accurate translation in English than rib.

The genes that determine the sex of a developing human, for a male are the XY chromosome. For a female the sex determinant genes are XX, or one side of Adam's genes that encode gender. I imagine there were many things that the disciples didn't exactly have everyday terms to describe how things work and how they happened here on Earth. Unfortunately, this created a bitter division among scientists and scholars of the church. I am sure people knew without any doubt that the words were true, and as science was working out the details, the crude mechanisms that were figured out compared to today's very detailed knowledge, well the facts seemed to be in direct opposition with the Scriptures.

That played a very big role in the editing and choosing what would become the books we call the bible today. It also had a lot to do with torching the records in Alexandria. The authors were human, and the same way scholars get into passionate discussions here, and sometimes their words may take a different emphasis on certain aspects, or points depending on what and where exactly the opposition or objects pertain from scholars who do not have the same views.

Defensive writing like that is far more easily misconstrued, than writing with only the objective to record the facts and story behind an event or sequence of events. Writing, editing and deciding what gets included and what does not can be severely affected when they are having to defend something they hold sacred and facts which rely on faith and the worst thing for recording history is having to defend your version of it from opposing views.

Use your "historical imagination"

pretend that it is us who are writing or editing Canonical books, and not discussing our views on whether or not dogs have souls or cats have a place in "Heaven". Do you think the threat of having an opposing views (on that you do not agree with) is going to affect the way you write your chapter?

Do you think that your words might undergo some "subtle" changes, in order to specifically state a certain point or even mention how it is "not such and such"?

would you rationalize subtle changes to your chapters because you believed that you knew without a doubt that cats didn't have a place in Heaven? Even though you were relying on your faith?

I believe that the author and or editors probably made many subtle changes that they believed did not change the story or the facts.

But remember that according the to old testament, it was "subtle" ways that they got them to listen to the serpent.

I wish I could say that the "faith" the authors and editors had was faith in the context that they should just write the history as they knew it, and not from any sort of a defensive position because they were hurt that Jesus may have possibly said things to Mary that he didn't share with them.

When I read talented authors, their words have a voice with tone. That tone sometimes changes. I believe that there are parts of the scriptures wherein the words speak with tones of defensiveness, and sometimes resentment and jealousy. When those emotions conflicted with Jesus's teachings, it definitely detracted from the clarity of the message. You can laugh or tease my interpretations. But when it comes to religious beliefs, there would be much more harmony, maybe even an Earth that was Heaven, if people listened to the words they hear, and recognize when they are letting anger taint their interpretation of history. If an author specialty is writing nonfiction or history, if they cannot recognize when their words are passive aggressive, they should stick to outlandish fairy tales and stay away from works that people will rely on to base their understanding of the world.

It breaks my heart when I read authors who in attempt to be "civilized" and state things passive aggressively or abuse art in order to say that which they are afraid or do not have the courage to speak straight understandable truth as they see it.
pedro
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 10:48:00 AM
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The Bible is factually riddled with flaws which you can forgive, I suppose, if your focus is purely on the moral teachings. There is plenty of scientific nonsense in Aristotle, but nowadays people only read him for his insights into ethical issues. I think, though, that granting souls to bacteria or trees or algae or viruses runs into similar logical walls as for Buddhist reincarnation. How can a bee live a good life? A virus isn't properly alive unless it has the life support system of a friendly creature (eg; a human). It does bother me too that the only route to eternal life depends on belief in abstruse and illogical concepts such as the trinity (not to say that scientific concepts aren't hard to grasp but they are measurable). I doubt that there are detailed commentaries on the bible that do not have their own vested interest agenda but I am prepared to be surprised.
GabhSigenod
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 12:21:51 PM

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I rest my case.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 4:23:17 PM

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SilvatungdaViel wrote:


I hope that Colton Burpo is right. That there are no old people in heaven. That there are lots of animals there. If there are lots of animals in Heaven then my dear mongrel Sheena will be there because she was the sweetest, smartest, best dog in the world. And no old people? Does that mean I won't be there, or that I will be there but will have shed a lot of years, a pot belly, arthritis etc.? Of course I hope it means the latter.

But ask yourself this - Is this how God communicates with us today? Are we to regard the story of a smart, caring,sincere boy as the revealed Word of God for these times? If this is how God speaks to us now then we need to examine a lot of experiences that have been related to us by children of many faiths. How will we decide which are true or otherwise?

No, my friends, the Word of God for us is contained in Holy Scriptures. We must study the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit of God and we must learn to walk with God as we learned to walk on our two legs - with a lot of help by stronger, older people. When we walk with God He will prepare us to serve Him in a new world that will involve the supernatural reconstruction of the fallen Universe in which there will be nothing that dies; where there will be no life forms as low as dogs - or humans.
GeorgeV
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:18:07 PM
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Ms. B. Have
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 9:51:16 PM
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Seven soul-searching question from a Christian.

Quote:
Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


1- How can I teach myself to love God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind, if God does not loves his own creation as much as I do?

2- How can I follow Jesus en do what he told me, love my neighbour as myself, if I know that God hates my neighbour because he is not willing to read the bible and accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour? Do not tell me that God loves my neighbour because if he did he would not condemn him to burn in Hell only because he did forget to read the bible.

3- How can I send my prayer: “and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Matthew 6:9–13), to a God who is not willing to forgive my neighbour the simple fact that he was not able to accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour, while I was able to forgive that neighbour the fact that he once raped me?

4- How can a God, who loves my neighbour only under the condition that he feared hell that much, that he accepted Jesus as his Lord and saviour only to be saved from hell, love more than He hates?

5- How can Jesus have called his God a “heavenly Father” if the most earthly fathers love their own children much more than God loves my neighbour?

6- How can a God who created this inconceivable universe with an uncountable number of galaxies that are full of wonderful life, create a heaven for eternity where only a few human beings are welcome only because they pissed their pants for hell, while all that other beautiful life is treated as garbage by its own creator, because it enjoyed life without fear for the devil?

7- How can it be that I have more compassion, love and forgiveness for my neighbour and my dog than the God who created me, and why is He now threatening me with hell if I do not kneel for his son?

Maybe the main question is not: “does my dog have a soul and do rocks go to heaven” but do we know and understand God and his creation well enough to find an answer on that question?

@jacobusmaximus: "where there will be no life forms as low as dogs - or humans"
I consider that as an insult for the creator of life. No matter what form a living being has, life is life and life sacred, because it is a-life.
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, April 27, 2012 11:23:33 PM
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Ms B.

Jacobus is really just proving my point. He's quoting from a self-serving scripture that he, but not necessarily we accept as truth, that wants to prove that only through Jesus can you find the divine. Whether or not dogs have souls is up to God. I have my opinion, and hope that all good dogs, cats, whales, dolphins, et al, go to heaven.

The larger issue is illustrated in the hallmark of the cult: you can only get "there" achieve "eternal life", whatever, by following MY guy, to the exculsion of all others:

Moses, the prophets, they were second string. John the Baptist...he was "preparing the way"....convenient that he was dead and could not contest this claim. Muhammad, the Budda, whomever was inspired to found Zoroastrianism, the sages of Hinduism....they are all essentially misleading you. At best they are dangerous because they salt their lies with some hints of the truth to draw you in.

Beware.

I'd like proof other than the Gospels, written a century (or more) after Jesus died, that Jesus claimed exclusivity for his mission. I see fallible human beings with their greed for power, for winning arguements of theology, for petty competition, fear at work here.

That is how you get a cult. Exclusivity. It's a power grab, not a genuine connection with the divine.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:03:17 AM

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Ms. B. Have wrote:
Seven soul-searching question from a Christian.

Quote:
Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


1- How can I teach myself to love God with all my heart and with all my soul and with all my mind, if God does not loves his own creation as much as I do?
Follow the Ten Commandments and you will (a) Love God as you should, and (b)stop thinking that your love is greater than God's.

2- How can I follow Jesus en do what he told me, love my neighbour as myself, if I know that God hates my neighbour because he is not willing to read the bible and accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour? Do not tell me that God loves my neighbour because if he did he would not condemn him to burn in Hell only because he did forget to read the bible.
God loved people long before there was a Bible to read. No one burns in Hell because they do not read the Bible, intentionally or otherwise. God loves your neaighbour and gave His only Son, Jesus, as a sacrifice for him.

3- How can I send my prayer: “and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Matthew 6:9–13), to a God who is not willing to forgive my neighbour the simple fact that he was not able to accept Jesus as his Lord and saviour, while I was able to forgive that neighbour the fact that he once raped me?
I suspect that the answer you want to hear is that your love is greater than God's love. It is not. God forgave you, me, and everyone else whose sins sent Jesus to the Cross. Remember Jesus died for you.

4- How can a God, who loves my neighbour only under the condition that he feared hell that much, that he accepted Jesus as his Lord and saviour only to be saved from hell, love more than He hates?
God does not hate anyone. He might hate their sins, but He does not hate the sinner. He gave up his Son to death on the Cross for sinners

5- How can Jesus have called his God a “heavenly Father” if the most earthly fathers love their own children much more than God loves my neighbour?
That God was Christ's Heavenly Father is a simple truth. It is also a simple truth that God loves your neighbour even though your neighbour rejects Him. God would not have to have sent His Son from the Glory of Heaven to suffer and die for us if we were already sin-free and loved God as the Commandment instructs.

6- How can a God who created this inconceivable universe with an uncountable number of galaxies that are full of wonderful life, create a heaven for eternity where only a few human beings are welcome only because they pissed their pants for hell, while all that other beautiful life is treated as garbage by its own creator, because it enjoyed life without fear for the devil?
Please submit you evidence that all the galaxies are full of life, wonderful or otherwise. Note please that people only become God-fearing after they accept Jesus as their Saviour and make Him Lord of their lives.

7- How can it be that I have more compassion, love and forgiveness for my neighbour and my dog than the God who created me, and why is He now threatening me with hell if I do not kneel for his son?
I wish I knew you well enough to laugh out loud at question 7. Evidence please, that your love is greater than God's. Show me your Son. Show me the nail marks on his hands. Show me the wound on his side. Put up or shut up Ms. B.

Maybe the main question is not: “does my dog have a soul and do rocks go to heaven” but do we know and understand God and his creation well enough to find an answer on that question?
If you mean by 'we', all of mankind, then the answer must be 'no', because so many people don't want to know the answer. If you mean the individual, then I submit that it depends upon one's walk with God.

@jacobusmaximus: "where there will be no life forms as low as dogs - or humans"
I consider that as an insult for the creator of life. No matter what form a living being has, life is life and life sacred, because it is a-life.


You care, Ms. B., that I should insult God? This God who terrifies people by dangling them over Hell until they scream for Jesus? This God whose love comes a poor second to yours? I wonder about you.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:08:13 PM

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HWNN1961 wrote:
Ms B.

Jacobus is really just proving my point. He's quoting from a self-serving scripture that he, but not necessarily we accept as truth, that wants to prove that only through Jesus can you find the divine. Whether or not dogs have souls is up to God. I have my opinion, and hope that all good dogs, cats, whales, dolphins, et al, go to heaven.

The larger issue is illustrated in the hallmark of the cult: you can only get "there" achieve "eternal life", whatever, by following MY guy, to the exculsion of all others:

Moses, the prophets, they were second string. John the Baptist...he was "preparing the way"....convenient that he was dead and could not contest this claim. Muhammad, the Budda, whomever was inspired to found Zoroastrianism, the sages of Hinduism....they are all essentially misleading you. At best they are dangerous because they salt their lies with some hints of the truth to draw you in.

Beware.

I'd like proof other than the Gospels, written a century (or more) after Jesus died, that Jesus claimed exclusivity for his mission. I see fallible human beings with their greed for power, for winning arguements of theology, for petty competition, fear at work here.

That is how you get a cult. Exclusivity. It's a power grab, not a genuine connection with the divine.


So you accept the Gospels as proof, HW, that Jesus said, for example, "No man comes to the Father except by me". But you want more proof. Well you cannot have it. You must believe by faith and walk in faith. You already do live by faith,of course,as you cannot prove that Jesus is not the only way to God. You are happy in your doubt - I am happy in my assurance.
A source of your doubt seems to be the gap between Jesus' ministry and the Gospels being written. It is not uncommon for great events in ancient history to be acurately passed down the generations in oral form. Many Jewish men could recite the first five books of the Bible(The Law)verbatim. The Gospels would be easy for them. And you don't think much of the Prophets. In fact you don't think much of any of the great Spiritual figures of history. You have told us who and what you don't beleve. Now tell us what you do believe in please, so that we might know where you are coming from.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:58:55 PM
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Jacobus,

You're a hard nut to crack even when the scientific facts smack you upside your head to which you just ignore and turn your nose up in arrogant indignation as if you have a monopoly on the differences between right and wrong and truth and fallacy. The church has done quite the brainwashing number on you and you and others like you are prime examples of the harm it has done. Do you honestly believe that God stopped communicating and has remained silent for 2000 years that ended with the scriptures? Conventional Christians, for the most part, are quite a lazy and lackadaisical bunch because you refrain from seeking God due to the fact that it takes a lifetime of time and effort to discover just how deep that He dwells within and without and to rely on faith alone is a sorry excuse. You rely on the priest or preacher to think for you to which you pay for by tithing and God-forbid that you stray outside those ironclad boundaries like a wayward maverick or black sheep seeking answers on your own that goes beyond mere faith. Instead, you have chosen to simply believe that your ticket to heaven has been punched by simply accepting Christ as your lord and savior and unconscioudsly created your own personal genie in a bottle within a safehaven of like-minded so-called Christians whom awaits your command to grant your every wish through the guise called prayer. The fact of the matter is that by truly accepting and following Christ you actually choose to bear the cross with him which means that there will be sacrifices and forks in the road that are actually trials and opportunities to distinguish yourself through moral fortitude from the masses and its herd-like instinct where you've found your comfort zone in numbers within its cozy realm of conventionality. To think that Jesus was nothing less than a revolutionary who fought and defended the poor and downtrodden is a grave error.

I often wonder about you...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5OGJoA66s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVBT3VzAX-4&feature=related
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 9:57:37 PM
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Actually these seven soul-searching questions are not answered by Jacobusmaximus because he completely missed the point. I was not questioning the love of God, but the picture of God he is showing us.

If I compare the love of God with the light of the sun, then my love for myself and all the peeps around me, is nothing more than a sparkle of that light reflected by a drop of dew. Because that is what I am, a drop of dew in Gods creation not shining its own light but reflecting a particle of the light of God.

So if I look at the light that I reflect, or at least try to reflect, then I know that the light of my lightsource, call it God, must be uncountable more than that tiny little particle I am able to reflect. For me that means that the God I love must be a God that always loves me much more than I do him.

Then I meet people who call them self a christian, telling me that God loves me but showing me a picture of their God that is complete without love and forgiveness, because this God commands me: “You have to worship Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, otherwise you are doomed for ever”. A God like this does not love me unconditionally, and robbes me from my freedom to love Him unconditionally, and that makes this God complete loveless and hateful.

That is because true love is per definition unconditional. If I tell my children that I only love them if they love and obey me, then my love for my children is a false love because I force them to love me by threatening them that they will not receive my love and care if they do not love me in the way I 've ordered them to do. If I do this, I take away their freedom of choice to love me, and the only love they can give me in return for that is a selfish false love. Then my relationship with my children is not anymore based on real unconditional love, but on egoism en selfishness born out of fear for rejection, and if that is called “love” then that is a lie that will end up in hate. If I really love my children my love is unconditional, what means that I will love and care form my children even if I do not receive any love in return for that. Only by doing so my children have the freedom and ability to return my true love for them with their true love fore me. What is true for me and my children is also true for me and my God.

If someone shows me a god who tells me: “I love you and I have saved you, but you receive that love and salvation only when you have proofed that you love and obey me.” then this God is not asking me for my love, but he is trying to force me with the violence of damnation to obey him, not out of free will and love, but out of fear for my soul. Such a god creates no children who love him, but only slaves who fear and obey him, and a god who treats his children as slaves is not God but is called Satan.

That this is true is proven by history. The picture of God j.m. show us is exactly the same picture of God that was worshipped by the Popes and the priests who invented the holy inquisition. Such a loveless and unforgivably God with no children but only slaves can easily make his slaves believe that they can serve him with a massacre and that they can bring Gods kingdom on earth by means of a genocide. This god made popes believe that they were allowed to kill christians to save their souls, because this god made the popes believe that he throws billions of souls into hell only to save a few of them, and that by killing Christians a few more souls could be saved. So the popes and his inquisitors started saving souls by prosecuting and killing peaceful and pacifistic Christians.

Because of that jacobusmaximus, the picture of God you want us to copy, is not a God but a so called “Idol”, in fact a picture of Satan.

The same thing with Christ, if you say that: “people only become God-fearing after they accept Jesus as their Saviour”. This conception of Christ changes Christ into anti-Christ. If I will become “God-fearing” after I accept this Christ as my saviour, then this so called saviour takes away my ability to love God out of free will and unconditional without fear that I will be punished if I do not love or fear Him. Such a saviour does not bring me closer to God, but he forces himself in between me and my God in such away that I can no longer love God unconditionally and without fear. A savior like that is not a Christ, but a servant of Satan, trying to pull me away from God and changing my love for God into fear of Satan.

Therefor Jesus never ever told his followers “I am your God and you have to love and obey me to be saved” Those people who say that he did, have never understood him and totally corrupted his teachings.

The idea that a God who is powerful enough to create a complete universe that gives shelter to an uncountable variation of lifeforms for an unmeasurable period of time, meanwhile created an eternal “Kingdom of Heaven” that only gives shelter to a fistful loveless soul-fearing christians, is not something Jesus told his disciples, but is the result of a totally corrupted picture of God, in fact an idol, not coming from God but a creation of men who never understood the Gospel, but misused the words of Jesus to create a church of fear that would give them unlimited power over fearful innocent human beings.

Now my dog is called a low life-form and cast out of the Kingdom of God because some power seeking idiots tried to use the Gospel to change me from a free-loving child of God into a slave of Satan to serve them.

That was not the intention of my brother Jesus when he died on a cross to teach me to live and love without fear.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:16:39 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,127
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Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
I wonder if there will be mosquitos and gnats.
HWNN1961
Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2012 11:23:56 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,494
Neurons: 9,763
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
I wonder if there will be mosquitos and gnats.



Yes, prais the Lord and pass the DEET.


There shall be bugs!


Honestly, find me a time and a place that there wasn't.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:20:34 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
I wonder if there will be mosquitos and gnats.

Yes there will! Because Heaven is eternal not only in time but also in life.
And eternity will turn out to short to imagine and to see what in Heaven can be seen.

And I tell you what, I've even seen a darkroom there where only Christians are who asked their Lord to be the only one's saved and now believe that they are!

Because that is what Heaven is, a place where everyone will get what he is asking for. And if you want to be alone with nothing to love except your own soul, then God tells me to tell you that His love for you is great enough to give you just that for as long as you wish. And if you do not want a Heaven where you get what you want, well...then you are still welcome in Hell.

Dusty dear, shall we leave this place to do what Jesus asked us to do, love all our neigbours like we love our self to bring the kingdom of God into this world, with the love for all life but without fear for our single soul, and leave Heaven for later?

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:29:03 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,003
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
SilvatungdaViel wrote:
Jacobus,

You're a hard nut to crack even when the scientific facts smack you upside your head to which you just ignore and turn your nose up in arrogant indignation as if you have a monopoly on the differences between right and wrong and truth and fallacy. The church has done quite the brainwashing number on you and you and others like you are prime examples of the harm it has done. Do you honestly believe that God stopped communicating and has remained silent for 2000 years that ended with the scriptures? Conventional Christians, for the most part, are quite a lazy and lackadaisical bunch because you refrain from seeking God due to the fact that it takes a lifetime of time and effort to discover just how deep that He dwells within and without and to rely on faith alone is a sorry excuse. You rely on the priest or preacher to think for you to which you pay for by tithing and God-forbid that you stray outside those ironclad boundaries like a wayward maverick or black sheep seeking answers on your own that goes beyond mere faith. Instead, you have chosen to simply believe that your ticket to heaven has been punched by simply accepting Christ as your lord and savior and unconscioudsly created your own personal genie in a bottle within a safehaven of like-minded so-called Christians whom awaits your command to grant your every wish through the guise called prayer. The fact of the matter is that by truly accepting and following Christ you actually choose to bear the cross with him which means that there will be sacrifices and forks in the road that are actually trials and opportunities to distinguish yourself through moral fortitude from the masses and its herd-like instinct where you've found your comfort zone in numbers within its cozy realm of conventionality. To think that Jesus was nothing less than a revolutionary who fought and defended the poor and downtrodden is a grave error.

I often wonder about you...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w5OGJoA66s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVBT3VzAX-4&feature=related


Silva, you are so uninformed about me I can't believe you have posted what you have. How can I take your points seriously when you make statements about me that you and I know are just reckless guesswork. Are you trying to give the impression to some readers that you know about me and that you are speaking from a position of informed strength? Well you don't, and you aren't. Nothing I have posted on this forum could possibly lead you, or anyone else to make such statements. I don't think you have ever wondered about me. You are just stealing my closer for effect.

You say "...To think that Jesus was nothing less than a revolutionary who fought and defended the poor and downtrodden is a grave error..." What is this about? Who has suggested this to you? Certainly not me.

I can forgive you for inferring that I think God stopped speaking to us after the Scriptures were completed. I might have given that impression but I assumed that the facts were all understood amongst us. Evidently not. The fact is that God speaks to us through the work of His indwelling Holy Spirit. We learn something new from Him as often as we listen. That is a fact that no "scientific fact" can challenge. But I would want to make it clear that nothing that we learn from God that is new to us changes anything in the Scriptures.

I don't know any 'conventional Christians' who have stopped seeking God. If you mean by conventional Christians those who go to church services in body but not in spirit you might be right that they are not really seeking God. I think there are many who might fit that description. But if you mean Christians who don't think outside the box, like you, you are entirely wrong. True Christians - and you probably don't know any - never stop seeking God. God is inside them. They have the Holy Spirit of God as their Guide and Comforter. Nothing, but nothing can separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. These are the facts Silva. Read them and weep.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:35:04 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,003
Neurons: 599,082
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
I wonder if there will be mosquitos and gnats.


Thank you JJ! I was about to weep until I scrolled down to your life-saver.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 11:39:59 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Anybody got any anti-nausea medicine?
IMcRout
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 12:12:21 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/27/2011
Posts: 35,380
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Location: Lübeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Anybody got any anti-nausea medicine?


Yep. Ignore this thread.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 12:39:07 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,003
Neurons: 599,082
Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
IMcRout wrote:
percivalpecksniff wrote:
Anybody got any anti-nausea medicine?


Yep. Ignore this thread.


Physician, etc....
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 1:11:04 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
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Location: United Kingdom
IMcRout commented: Yep. Ignore this thread.


Good advice, but a bit too late. I chanced upon it and read some, and was immediately overcome. I will move on to more reasoned fields and take your advice.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 3:24:19 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
@percivalpecksniff and IMcRout

That you are not interested in a subject like this, or that you do not have the mental skills to comprehend, I can understand. Nobody asked you to read it, and if you want to ignore it please do so. There are many topics on this forum I ignore because it is not my cup of tea, but please show some decency, and respect it that other people have other opinions and other interests than you do.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:00:56 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Looking at your signature, I am assured of your forgiveness Ms Behave.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:02:05 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/7/2011
Posts: 298
Neurons: 733
Location: United States, VA
Indeed, go name a city...
dusty
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:45:11 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/13/2012
Posts: 1,770
Neurons: 5,765
The thing is, does it really matter whether or not insects, animals, and bacteria have souls?

Making this the point of contention is not a good idea, especially when it divides believers into two hotly contested camps of opposing opinion.

I only meant to say that it seems clear to me that such mistakes tangled those who compiled the historical accounts into one bible. I believe without a doubt that this entanglement affected the wording of every account (books and chapters) that were written from a point of view wherein the author felt they had to defend what they had written or make a point to use words as if they were a lawyer.

This more than likely detracted from the clarity of the words (for this type of written records) Unless the words are written and edited with the sole purpose of saying it with words in such a way that the reader will know exactly the thoughts and feelings that occurred, it becomes convoluted. This is because communication that is honest, truthful, and transparent is attempting to share the thoughts with the reader, in the same experience the author had in the actually experience.

How can an author's words be accurately interpreted if the the reader does not understand how bitter and deep the divides grew that separated people who had once declared themselves of the same religion?

Authors/Editors know the importance or keeping accurate records. Everyone of us knows when we are adding slight exaggerations to a story we tell and we know the reason we do so, if we are being honest with ourselves.

What is all this really about?

It has a lot to do with trying to sort through everyone whom this Earth hosts and knowing who understands the importance of the lesson which the subject is LOVE. Who understands the lesson. To make a distinction between those who live righteously for the right reasons and who is going through the motions not because they wish to do the right thing, but do so to obtain a reward.

This is actually important, because what happens when the reward is taken away? It then becomes clear who was "for real"

Everyone wants to be free, but it seems very few are willing to accept the unpleasant and very much NOT FUN responsibility that cannot be separated from true freedom. They either do not accept this responsibility or else they are ignorant of the great degree that this responsibility truthfully is, and mistakenly believe what is actually a mountain higher than Everest to be nothing but foothills in regards to responsibility.

Governing any people is a job that is sacred, for it does not even take an absolute power to corrupt absolutely. It seems that it only takes denial of our personal shortcomings, denial upon the realization that we were wrong and the rationalizations we tell ourselves to deal with ourselves when the guilt becomes so great that we choose to forget. This is an occurrence that cannot continue.

Subtle tactics are nothing more than trickery and manipulation. If people prefer such a life than maybe it is time that we divide Heaven into more than one realm. But I promise you, that in doing so you will come to realize that your petty differences were not worth it.

When the Earth starts to split, suddenly all the F****ng A*****es who yesterday claimed they could not coexist along side so-and-so, yet today they are willing to to not only coexist, but also take them for a lawfully wedded life.

I am growing weary of those who do not keep their word or fail to understand what it really means to "do no harm"

I am growing weary of having those who demand their freedom but fail to allow it others when their rules are not followed.

How can a person expect to not be subjected to living according to a way of life that they do not desire nor believe in, when that is exact what they do to others when they are in the position of power and control.

Justice is not any form of truth and Justice when it is black and white for some people but sees in color and the many shades of gray when concerning others.

People are eventually going to have to make a decision as to what level of honesty and privacy they truly desire in their lives. Not just during the good times, but the bad times too. They will have to decide what kind of life they are willing to accept more permanently as apposed to temporarily and what leadership that entails.

Because the current level of corruption, even if the denial is so strong that the corrupted truly do not realize it, is far too corrupt for any Kingdom of Heaven.

It would truly be one of the greatest tragedies to date, for a planet such as Earth to stop, dead in it's tracks, which for now a path continues it's loop so that nearly all locations get an alternating pattern of light and darkness, with a pendulum of severity that returns to a point of periodicity.

What we do, how we live, and the choices we make may mean nothing to the greater pictured image beyond our solar system. But to think that it doesn't mean a lot, if not meaning everything to those who are hosted by our Mother Earth, due to view of any amount of passage of time, is a great mistake.

It does matter to someone, even if we have completely forgotten that we once had no problem with being all in this together. For there was a time when it was more than just not having a problem with it, not that long ago, according to some frames of time and it's passage, we desired a life with each other as family, and would refuse to continue on if just one of us was to turn up missing. Just one out of whatever relative number was enough to collectively say "I can not go forward any further than this, without permanently loosing a part of myself"

And the individuals who are OK with that will be allowed to continue on, but not without consequence

HWNN1961
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:57:42 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/13/2010
Posts: 3,494
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The topic seemed valid to me, and worthy of thought. I believe it is the Jain religion that believes all life is sacred, even the lowest forms.

Are they right? I don't know. But I allow for the possibility.

When I pray for those that I've lost, I also pray for all the souls that have passed away. Note that I didn't specify "human" souls.

What does and does not constitute a soul, and which life forms have them, I leave to God. It's enough for me to be inclusive, and remember them all when I pray.

The larger issue on display here has been a rather graphic and a telling comparision between open and closed minds based on their reactions to the subject matter. Some didn't do themselves very proud in this exercise.
almostfreebird
Posted: Sunday, April 29, 2012 7:00:52 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/22/2011
Posts: 2,812
Neurons: 7,024
Location: Japan


Religion was created to overcome fear of the unknown, fear of death.
That is OK but somebody added the idea of "exclusivity" to that.
That has the quality of nastiness, which caused a lot of religious conflict.



"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever"(http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/)


“There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point… The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.”
(The God Delusion)



jacobusmaximus
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 9:44:11 AM

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Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 13,003
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Location: Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
almostfreebird wrote:

Religion was created to overcome fear of the unknown, fear of death.
That is OK but somebody added the idea of "exclusivity" to that.
That has the quality of nastiness, which caused a lot of religious conflict.

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever"(http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/)

“There is something infantile in the presumption that somebody else has a responsibility to give your life meaning and point… The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.”
(The God Delusion)


I have never thought of religion as being created. Surely it evolved from beliefs and a pattern of practices in relation to those beliefs. This is not exclussive to religions where a God is the centre of worship. All sorts of cultures, including those which are not centred on the supernatural, have customs and practices which might easily be described as religion. For an example of this we need look no further than certain UK Football Teams.

You say, or endorse the view, that "...The truly adult view, by contrast, is that our life is as meaningful, as full and as wonderful as we choose to make it.”
I would say that either you repalce the word 'adult' with 'conceited', or the word 'choose' with the words 'are able'.

This is one of the things that disturbs me about anti-religious folk. They are generally conceited, narrow-minded men (usually men) who think they are intellectually superior to people who live by faith in the Divine. Especially they speak out against Christians and against God in Christ. They hardly ever speak out against Islam and the prophet of Islam. Why? Because they fear death, and they develop and pursue a religion of silence on the matter.
SilvatungdaViel
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 12:27:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/7/2011
Posts: 298
Neurons: 733
Location: United States, VA
Ain't this the pot calling the kettle black?

"This is one of the things that disturbs me about anti-religious folk. They are generally conceited, narrow-minded men (usually men) who think they are intellectually superior to people who live by faith in the Divine. Especially they speak out against Christians and against God in Christ. They hardly ever speak out against Islam and the prophet of Islam. Why? Because they fear death, and they develop and pursue a religion of silence on the matter."

Isn't it ironic that conventional Christians and their preachers forewarn about the second coming of Christ and the wrath of God and then demonize that very tool or instrument that's intended to remove the weeds and tares that permeate the earth's garden before the ushering in of God's heavenly kingdom and then verbally attack what they perceive as their enemy as they await their ascencion during the rapture to their heaven in the sky before the onslaught that actually seems to describe exactly what they preach upon their own demise that I've heard in every eulogy of every Christian funeral that I've attended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjmFm8PIz8M&feature=related
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Monday, April 30, 2012 2:14:09 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
jacobusmaximus wrote:
I have never thought of religion as being created.


A thought about creation and religion: Can there exist anything that is not somehow created?

For the atheist everything that exists, including religion and illusion, is created by nature. What I create is a creation of nature because I am created by and a part of that creating nature. Nature is neither good nor evil, that are only conceptions of our consciousness

For the monotheist everything is a creation of one God. Though this God is the only one creator, everything that really exists is a creation of this God. If not created by this God it cannot exist and must be an illusion. What I create is a creation of God because he created me. When it comes to evil and sin the monotheist now has to make a choice out of three options:

1- God created evil and sin because they are real existing, so God is not only good but evil as well.

2- If not a result of God's creativity because God can only create good, evil and sin do not really exist but are an illusion, making salvation an illusion as well.

3- Evil and sin are real existing but not created by God, but by another creator, one of evil and sin. This evil co-creator cannot be created by God, because in that case God is still the creator of evil. Now I need not one but two God's: a good one and an evil one. Who of these two created Ms. B. Have?

Imagine that Ms. B. Have will not get salvation then why is she punnished?

1- Punnished by God because of the sins not Ms. B. but God Himself created.

2- Not punnished, Ms. B. was never a sinner because evil is an illusion because never created.

3- Punnished by God because He was not her creator.

Give me your votes please!



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