The Free Dictionary  
mailing list For webmasters
Welcome Guest Forum Search | Active Topics | Members

Men regard it as their right to return evil for evil—and, if they cannot, feel they have lost their liberty. Options
Daemon
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 12:00:00 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/7/2009
Posts: 31,096
Neurons: 92,466
Location: Inside Farlex computers
Men regard it as their right to return evil for evil—and, if they cannot, feel they have lost their liberty.

Aristotle (384 BC-322 BC)
jcbarros
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 8:01:41 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/14/2010
Posts: 2,361
Neurons: 9,122
You can live without liberty. You cannot live without order. And here some retribution is necessary.
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:41:02 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
guess that depends on your definition of living jcbarros.., always wonder who these "men" are they talk about..
floyd
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 12:57:27 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/2011
Posts: 137
Neurons: 411
Location: United States
I like Jesus' take on it a lot better.

floyd
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 1:24:02 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
i think the jews had some field tests with that jesus thing, with rather limited success

you know you can make urself look really special (if u are good even divine) by stating something counterintuitive, lemme try:

if you hang from a cliff, dont try climbing back up, just let go
if someone wants to shoot you, help him loading the gun
if someone does a wicked thing to you, give him a hug

.. am i jesus-profound already?
LandShark
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 1:35:37 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 3/13/2012
Posts: 3
Neurons: 9
Location: United States, TX
Aristotle is admonishing Man: Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever whenever; doing whatever whenever is the ultimate form of slavery, slavery to one's whims and passions. Instead, if one truly is free, if one is at liberty, then one is free to do what is right. Repaying evil with evil teaches only evil. The evildoer who see's evil being heaped back upon him says, "I was right, there is only evil." Turning the other cheek does nothing but encourage more of the evil. The evildoer says, "I slap evil onto others, and they do nothing but present me with a fresh opportunity to slap." However, repaying evil, not with evil but with temperance or justice or mercy or wisdom, forces the evildoer to conclude, "There is not only evil." So, Aristotle is admonishing Man not to think that liberty is being denied him when the choice to repay evil with evil is removed from him, but should instead realize that only when the choice to repay evil with evil is removed from him is he at liberty to do what is right.
LandShark
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 1:39:12 PM
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 3/13/2012
Posts: 3
Neurons: 9
Location: United States, TX
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator wrote:
i think the jews had some field tests with that jesus thing, with rather limited success

you know you can make urself look really special (if u are good even divine) by stating something counterintuitive, lemme try:

if you hang from a cliff, dont try climbing back up, just let go
if someone wants to shoot you, help him loading the gun
if someone does a wicked thing to you, give him a hug

.. am i jesus-profound already?


. . . and if you hear a platitude, don't seriously consider it, just ignore it, move on and let somebody else lose themselves in the pithy.
RubyMoon
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 3:30:13 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2009
Posts: 1,663
Neurons: 4,834
Location: United States
Gibran (again) - Good and Evil -
http://youtu.be/hW4HHpFWpcc


Good And Evil

Author: Samuel G. Goodrich

When man from Paradise was driven,

And thorns around his pathway sprung,

Sweet Mercy wandering there from heaven

Upon those thorns bright roses flung.

Aye, and as Justice cursed the ground,

She stole behind, unheard, unseen--

And while the curses fell around,

She scattered seeds of joy between.

And thus, as evils sprung to light,

And spread, like weeds, their poisons wide,

Fresh healing plants came blooming bright,

And stood, to check them, side by side.

And now, though Eden blooms afar,

And man is exiled from its bowers,

Still mercy steals through bolt and bar,

And brings away its choicest flowers.

The very toil, the thorns of care,

That Heaven in wrath for sin imposes,

By mercy changed, no curses are--

One brings us rest, the other roses.

Thus joy is linked with every woe--

Each cup of ill its pleasure brings;

The rose is crushed, but then, you know,

The sweeter fragrance from it springs.

If justice throw athwart our way,

A deepening eve of fear and sorrow,

Hope, like the moon, reflects the ray

Of the bright sun that shines to-morrow.

And mercy gilds with stars the night;

Sweet music plays through weeping willows;

The blackest cave with gems is bright,

And pearls illume the ocean billows.

The very grave, though clouds may rise,

And shroud it o'er with midnight gloom,

Unfolds to faith the deep blue skies,

That glorious shine beyond the tomb.


floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 6:09:05 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
LandShark wrote:

. . . and if you hear a platitude, don't seriously consider it, just ignore it, move on and let somebody else lose themselves in the pithy.


well said, but do consider it, then move on to use ur own mind

its impressive how a good brand name like jesus and its world class marketing can make seemingly fine minds contemplate platitudes at length

of course you should not repay evil with evil, who in the world is suggesting this bullshit other than simply evil people, who says when someone rapes ur daughter you should rape his daughter? (well some religious texts probably), its such a hollow dumb and simplistic statement that im not even particularly tempted to explain its idiocy

without self important gurus like the guys who invented jesus people might have developed minds fine enough to dismis such stupid platitudes as the lame peasant philosophy they are

to a psychopath that second cheek is a welcome invitation, and you risk being slapped again and again (or mass-murdered), you give up your reason and responsibility in this world for hope of some obscure divine justice or emotional effect in your attacker, do you need another holocaust to get the point?

if someone slaps u on the right cheek, slap him on his right cheek, you might teach him something about the consequences of actions and avoid him doing it to the next guy, and you show him more respect than offering him the second cheek out of your oh so divine inspiration

sorry but im so fed with this deluded religious bullshit, its poison to our hearts and minds which would be capable of so much more

by all means do respond because i like seeing people using their own minds..
floyd
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 6:22:21 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/2011
Posts: 137
Neurons: 411
Location: United States
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator --

I'm actually not a Christian or a jew. From what we know, though, it seems that Jesus did a pretty good job of teaching and living both lovingkindness and mercy. So did Buddha, for that matter.

Many Christians, including some of Jesus' earliest followers, have not done a good job at all of living lovingkindness and mercy. Maybe that's why your thoughts seem so bitter. If it is, maybe I can understand.

Take care,

floyd





floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Monday, April 9, 2012 8:14:17 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
Quote:
it seems that Jesus did a pretty good job of teaching and living both lovingkindness and mercy

Quote:
Many Christians, including some of Jesus' earliest followers, have not done a good job at all of living lovingkindness and mercy


i know its a big element in religion but forgive me for being bothered by this slight contradiction, if he did a good job of teaching how is it that he fails to teach his own followers? maybe because he was after all just a well meaning preacher from a comparably primitive part of the world?

as much as i would agree with some of his points i am offended and you should be as well by the thought that we did need jesus to tell us these things, "though shall not kill" - nicolas cage face, help me with this one! as if we didnt have much more profound, meaningful thinkers and cultures before him, like for example the one our quotee here hails from, the mere suggestion of this is just repulsive to me, when i heard as a child how jesus came to earth to save mankind my first reaction was wondering why the world had not really improved after his great arrival

snake oil salesmen came to the village to sell the peasants fortune-cookie wisdom and lofty promises of great unworldly pleasure and divine order in order to gain power and influence, and they were able to poison the minds of villagers who were already much further in their real wisdom, and if they werent convinced at free will they "brought them the sword" (by their own admission), what we got were the middle ages, worls conquest aso.

socrates wrote nothing down, what a fool he was, he should just have claimed divinity and have written a good book and most of the world would proudly proclaim themselves socratians, marketing-failure..

and my anger comes from my own mind having been poisoned with religion, i wasnt into any of the official ones but the poison was strong enough to inspire my own very complex "spirituality"

why would you as a human able to enjoy all the pleasures of life and struggling with all its real hardships admire someone who by his own decision and divine status wouldnt know anything about these things! i dont want to take away dreams of an afterlife but i want you to be above these snake oil salesman fairy tales and be here in this world with me, here I am man, here dare it to be!
floyd
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:07:36 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/2011
Posts: 137
Neurons: 411
Location: United States
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator --

I had written about a page of comments, when I did something wrong and they disappeared. That has happened before, and it drives me nuts. So, here's one last try.

I spent a lot of years, too, being angry with the Christian church and with how the teachings of Jesus seemed to have been corrupted and even abandoned by many Christians. I even felt they were used to manipulate me and stifle my growth. As I realized that my anger was taking a toll on me, I started to work on it. I tried to separate Jesus' teachings from what has been done to the Christian church by people who seem like charlatans, hypocrites, deceivers, power mongers, and whatever.

I have come to some peace with that. I have recently read books by two of the wisest people I know of: (1) The Jefferson Bible which is Thomas Jefferson's attempt at separating what Jesus taught from what his followers tried to make of it. (2) Stephen Mitchell does a similar thing in The Gospel According to Jesus. If they're available in Germany, you should try reading them and see what you think.

Buddha and Jesus and others have spoken a lot of truth over the millennia. I don't want to throw it out because of what others have done as their teachings became religions. I think Jesus' teachings have made a difference for good in our society; I just don't know how to weigh that agains the evil that has been done in his name.

So I'm going to keep up the meditation that Buddhist taught (not the Buddhist religion!), and keep reading and thinking about what Jesus taught and what has been done with it.

Finally, I saw that you're in Germany. My father's family came from Germany to the U.S. in the 1870's. I loved Dietrich Banhoeffer's 2010 biography by Eric Metaxas, which shows an admirable man fighting for Christian teachings in the face of true horrors.

If you've read any of these books, or read them in the future, I would appreciate hearing what you think of them.

It has been good to "talk" with you.

floyd


Jimbob
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:16:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/26/2011
Posts: 162
Neurons: 486
Location: New Zealand
Men regard it as their right to return evil for evil—and, if they cannot, feel they have lost their liberty.
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Well what do you say return evil for evil, how about return evil for justice rings a little more true. One could argue the death penalty as being a justice (abolished in some places) for an evil crime committed. And lets face it, if the crime is that bad why not, after all it’s just going to cost the tax payer to incarcerate them and for what !

Liberty sounds all very rosy, Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control, could be perceived as a right of citizens, but to quote...

E.A.J. Johnson : Admittedly, liberty “is one of the most important blessings which men possess,” but the idea that liberty is synonymous with complete freedom from restraint “is a most unwise, mistaken apprehension.”

One off the things that bothers me about freedom is the right of ordinary people having access to firearms, whilst I appreciate the right of people to defend themselves. There are those who shall I say, that are unstable or just filled with plain old hatred. Firearms in their possession is a cocktail for disaster. With the amount of firearms readily available in some countries and lack of control, it is quite possible that it’s an inextricable situation.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

inextricable
a. So intricate or entangled as to make escape impossible: an inextricable maze; an inextricable web of deceit.
b. Difficult or impossible to disentangle or untie: an inextricable tangle of threads.
c. Too involved or complicated to solve: an inextricable problem. <--- this one
2. Unavoidable; inescapable: bound together by an inextricable fate.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 12:34:09 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 17,259
Neurons: 55,377
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Flocci - (sorry, I don't like using long words),

Yeah, you DO have a lot of anger which, you say stems "from my own mind having been poisoned with religion". So your anger, by your own admission, is at yourself, yeah? For having been duped? For having been lied to? For having been part of the herd? For having allowed those over whom you had no control to control you? It happens. It's called growing up.

I'm guessing you are fairly young, because this sounds sort of like the kind of anger some people experience when they discover there's no Santa Claus or that The Tooth Fairy actually lives in their father's sock drawer. Also, I base this guess on the fact that you still haven't completely let go:- "I'm offended and you should be as well by the thought that we did need Jesus (it's ok to give it a capital letter: it's s name: names take capital letters.)to tell us these things." No, "we" didn't. Hammurabi, a couple of thousand years previously, is generally credited with having come up with these things. People living in clan groups in caves probably thought about it first.

Another reason you sound like a young person hurtin', is that you use such VERY hyperbolic language: snake-oil salesmen usually claimed quite a few successes, y'know. Those who didn't benefit from the Placebo Effect at least didn't get any worse. The odd one did, admittedly, but, on the whole those who needed to kick start their own bodies defence mechanisms ate the fortune cookies (rather a mixed metaphor there) in belief of the lofty promises and got better.

I realise that, if you are a hoary old octogenarian I am sounding insufferably patronising. But what I'm reacting to, whatever your circumstances, is the anger and the hurt I feel from your posts. I'm not trying to put you down. I'm trying I guess, to calm you down.

Some people need to believe in gods - Baal, Ashur, Jupiter, Jesus, The Spaghetti Monster. Some people don't. That's all.

So you see the world isn't made better by those who believe in one god over another? Terrible things have been done?

Terrible things have also been done in the name of Nationalism, Patriotism, Love and Science. Terrible things have been done by humans since the world began. Elsewhere on this site there is a thread about the nature of Good and Evil and the people there are talking about this very thing. They seem to be coming to the conclusion that it's simply part of the human condition.

You were brought up to believe in a certain Truth and now you are grown you have seen there are other Truths. Don't get angry about it. It means you're a sapient human. You live up to your species' name. Put all that anger and energy into finding out more and more about Life and The Meaning of Everything and even the number 42.

Do you know that some women were brought up to believe that female genital mutilation was the only way to gain happiness? Some boys are circumcised with rusty tin-can tops at the age of 13 because they have been told that those who die in the process aren't real men. Some people have been made to believe that killing others will make them happy, or that women are all unclean, or that eating shellfish is offensive, or that eating with their mouths open is polite.

Don't be angry. Find your own truth. You've discovered that what you once believed was the way to peace and contentment and happiness and self-fulfilment just doesn't do it for you. Start out on that amazing journey to find out what does. It's a terrific ride, I promise.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 5:28:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/18/2009
Posts: 1,928
Neurons: 6,180
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator is no bitterer than he ought to be; restraining anger where it is due is nothing to be proud of... nothing of which to be proud. And he's not wrong either.

Romany, it is not called growing up, it is called being taken advantage of and it can be thwarthed if met with anger and determination to stop it. I don't see where he suggested that his anger is directed at himself, the phrase "my anger comes from my face being bashed in with a baseball bat" does not mean "I hate myself for letting someone bash in my face with a baseball bat."
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:09:26 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Mt 5:38, 39 “You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ However, I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.”


What lay behind the words of Jesus here? Was he saying we should lie down and take it when someone was intent on inflicting bodily harm on us? Of course not. Neither was he teaching pacifism since he himself sat down on one occasion and made a whip which he then used to drive out the moneylenders from the Temple.

The Bible teaches that Jesus will lead God’s army in the destruction of the wicked… hardly the role of a pacifist.

So what did he mean? He was advocating walking away from an insult and not embroiling oneself in an argument and retaliation. A slap is not a punch is it? A slap is a form of insult, and rather that parley insults the Christian was to, in effect, ’turn the other cheek’ and let the insult go.

The advice was good advice, and it takes a man to rise above an insult.
Romany
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 6:16:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 17,259
Neurons: 55,377
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
uuaschbaur -

ok, we'll have to agree to differ on whether or not floccinaucinihilipilificatinator (I see my little joke about his name fell flat) feels anger towards himself.

But I said nothing about 'restraining" anger. I agree wholeheartedly with you: restraining it is impossible: it grows in the dark and feeds upon itself - either destroying one, or destroying others: indeed nothing to be proud of. We end up as losers. Anger is a destructive emotion about which one has two choices - either direct it others or at oneself (or a little of both) and it is the cause of so much that is bad in our world.

But its a really strong emotion and if we can harness that strength and turn into into something else then we've really achieved something.

As to bitterness - well I have to disagree with you there. I don't think anyone 'ought' to be bitter. It is the vilest, most self-destructive emotion around and harbouring it destroys us.

I don't presume to waffle on like Letitia the Light-Giver just because I've read up on the subject; or because I dot my 'i's with Smiley faces; or because I see myself as a little Ray of Sunshine strewing Peace and Happiness around like confetti. I do it because I know this. From my own personal experience and from a long, long time dealing with others.

I was sexually abused by a Catholic Priest when I started to question. Does that give me the right to be bitter, do you think? I tried to fight the might of the Catholic church at the age of 15 and got expelled and damned for it. Should that qualify me to get bitter?

It took me years and years before I realised that I was 'restraining' myself and patting myself on the back for doing it. And that in the meantime I had not only wrecked my own life but many others as well. So maybe that realisation was just cause for feeling bitter all over again - because I realised that The Church had well and truly shafted me in a process that lasted for years and years and left a trail of destruction behind me?

Nah, mate. There's no pay-off in any of that. It was only when I took all those experiences and started to use them constructively that I stopped being a loser and got so damn strong that I had enough left over to lend to other people who needed it.

It's taken a long, long time and one helluva lot of shite has flowed under the bridge since then - and yeah, life went on stomping me into the ground like you wouldn't believe. But I'm still standing - and I just thought that maybe, just maybe, I might be able to save someone else all the trouble of going through all that. Or at least alert them to the fact that, well, stuff happens.

But hey. Tant pis.
Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:11:34 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
Who returns evil with evil will become a slave of his own hatred, and never know what freedom is.
Not words of justice, only love sets free, because it permits the loving heart to break all laws in the name of love.
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 8:29:41 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
yeah floydd, data loss in browsers is bad, i usually just click ctrl a and ctrl c a few times in the text because i konw this too well

Quote:
I tried to separate Jesus' teachings from what has been done to the Christian church by people who seem like charlatans, hypocrites, deceivers, power mongers, and whatever.

sounds a bit like this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY
and this would be the answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBo7Z_abiLE&feature=related

jesus a brand product of the church, jesus says i bring you the sword, jesus says you should love him more than your friends and family

today coca cola finds a musician who might be really honest about his art and good in his intentions, they give them money and fame and then use them to spread their gospel of consumption, and some people go really crazy about them, maybe with jesus it was the same story

Quote:
I have come to some peace with that. I have recently read books by two of the wisest people I know of: (1) The Jefferson Bible which is Thomas Jefferson's attempt at separating what Jesus taught from what his followers tried to make of it. (2) Stephen Mitchell does a similar thing in The Gospel According to Jesus. If they're available in Germany, you should try reading them and see what you think.

i think jefferson knew of some far more profound teachings he for some reason chose to withhold from greater public, for more ambitious minds there are other poisons available

if you say i should read the jesus-authors because were great philosopher, fair enough, i did read them and i tend to disagree, its more like a historical document to me, it is pretty much what you would expect that authors of this time in this part of the world would write, for not entirely noble motives i might ad

Quote:
Buddha and Jesus and others have spoken a lot of truth over the millennia. I don't want to throw it out because of what others have done as their teachings became religions. I think Jesus' teachings have made a difference for good in our society; I just don't know how to weigh that agains the evil that has been done in his name.


the real evil that these religion have done is feed and foster human intellectual laziness, they breed servile minds that instead of using their own power of reason to actively understand, shape and improve this world get lost in contemplation of oh so divine wisdom or in dreams of better worlds, divine justice or revenge aso., and these patterns of servileness and numbed reason are then available to be used to enslave man, be it for war and genocide like in nazi germany, for the bone-mills of early capitalism or workplaces of our capitalism, pseudo-democracies like our western ones aso., religion poisons everything!

Quote:
So I'm going to keep up the meditation that Buddhist taught (not the Buddhist religion!), and keep reading and thinking about what Jesus taught and what has been done with it.


as said, i myself was what you would call deeply spiritual, i wasnt into any gods, my god was basically myself at a more enlightened stage, at some points i was basically in permanent meditation, it is a mental training of sorts, i dont see how it needs the claim of divinity or the jealousy towards worldly pursuits, live is suffering? to spend ur life focused on the suffering is possibly the worst idea ever had

Quote:
Finally, I saw that you're in Germany. My father's family came from Germany to the U.S. in the 1870's. I loved Dietrich Banhoeffer's 2010 biography by Eric Metaxas, which shows an admirable man fighting for Christian teachings in the face of true horrors.

horrors perpetrated in he name of christianity! bonhoeffers good character led him to interprete the christian mumbo-jumbo in a positive way, the nazis utilized it to bring death and destruction, but i give it to you: your mind might have devolved to the point were the religious poison is the best or even only fuel you know, and u might use it then to do good things

Quote:
If you've read any of these books, or read them in the future, I would appreciate hearing what you think of them.


will certainly have a look, but i doubt that it ll make me insult bonhoeffer by suggesting he did what he did only because jesus told him to do so

i know its hard to give up a lie held for so long, my own spirituality almost destroyed me before i was willing to give it up, but if you find the strength to do it you will be a better, stronger and more conscious person
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:10:17 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Floc..... opined: the real evil that these religion have done is feed and foster human intellectual laziness, they breed servile minds that instead of using their own power of reason to actively understand, shape and improve this world get lost in contemplation of oh so divine wisdom or in dreams of better worlds, divine justice or revenge aso., and these patterns of servileness and numbed reason are then available to be used to enslave man, be it for war and genocide like in nazi germany, for the bone-mills of early capitalism or workplaces of our capitalism, pseudo-democracies like our western ones aso., religion poisons everything!


You mean servile minds like Copernicus… Michael Angelo… Newton… Alexander Fleming etcetera, etcetera. Most of the great minds have been possessed by religious folk … great poets…dramatists…medical scientists…mathematicians, people with great social consciences etcetera. The list is endless. Look at all the great Muslim Scholars and those who professed Christianity. Nearly all the great social movers were religious. If you trace through history the men and women who helped change society for the good were nearly all were religious. Many, if not most, great explorers were religious. Men who braved the elements and challenges to discover new lands and cures for man's ills. Your argument does not hold water.

As to violence in war, then yes, but is that confined to the religious? What about atheistic states and their murderous programmes and their servile populations? And when religious peoples and nations went to war, they did so out of harmony with the very teachings they professed to follow. The real message of Christianity does not allow for nationalistic fervour and senseless killing, it is the corruption of that message that permits such actions.

Where in the Christian message can you find support for Nazi Germany’s genocidal act?

Your anger breeds contempt. You have a right to feel strongly against the bad in religion.... I feel the same...but we cannot condemn in a blanket style, and dismiss our fellow man as idiots who cannot think for themselves can we.

Do you really think the world would be better if all were atheists? Could you prove that?

Have you read George Orwells's Animal Farm? What would you have to replace religion? Another corrupt or worse system?

Ms. B. Have
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:53:21 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/6/2012
Posts: 355
Neurons: 686
percivalpecksniff wrote:

....Nearly all the great social movers were religious. If you trace through history the men and women who helped change society for the good nearly all were religious.....


Indeed, those who escaped from excommunication and the Holy Inquisition.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:03:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Yes MS.B.Have, there are two sides to the coin. The real rogues are the leaders of such churches and religious organizations and those who go along with their extremes.

I do not advocate that all is good in religion, but I do think there are many humble god-fearing folk, who follow it to a greater or lesser extent.

Personally I do not belong to a religion, nor do I side with any political persuasion. I do, however, believe there is a God.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:31:24 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 13,057
Neurons: 63,022
Ms. B. Have wrote:
percivalpecksniff wrote:

....Nearly all the great social movers were religious. If you trace through history the men and women who helped change society for the good nearly all were religious.....


Indeed, those who escaped from excommunication and the Holy Inquisition.



Madonna once performed a song on the cross and in other videos seduced a black Jesus and had statues crying blood and, whilst incurring the wrath of catholic commentators, managed to avoid excommunication. I did think of having myself struck off thus but it is really very difficult now to be consigned to Hell. I do think that scientists' affiliation with the Church might sometimes have been more a matter of the cultural climate of the times. For one thing, a good many early scientific papers would have been written in the scholarly language of the day, usually Latin. If you wanted your thoughts perused by peers this is what you did. Latin and its teaching is also the lingo of the church. Just as today, the church had most of the best schools!
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:43:09 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
thanks, nicely said, uuaschbaer, also for solidarity in weird names :D

romany, ad-hominem much? you want me to confess? how im a miserable worm without some god or prophet?
i am angry but far from bitter, in fact i never felt anything as liberating as true atheism, not only the freedom from religion but also superstition, false authority and social constraints - it all goes hand in hand, and im still angry because i live in a society thats not a tenth of what it could be if people wouldnt be taught to not use their own heads

you say you had a difficult life, you struggled, failed and succeeded, ups and downs, learned and overcame and you want to bow to a being which by its divine status has never and cannot have this experience

Quote:
Don't be angry. Find your own truth

i think ill do both, and thats exactly my point: find your own truth, not the one some snake oil salesmen forces upon you, not one your parents or state taught you, you are child to no one in this world, and submission to some immortal all knowing being, some prophet or unchanging text should insult you as a proud human being

Quote:
So what did he mean? He was advocating walking away from an insult and not embroiling oneself in an argument and retaliation. A slap is not a punch is it? A slap is a form of insult, and rather that parley insults the Christian was to, in effect, ’turn the other cheek’ and let the insult go.


i know the answer: who gives a f...! who cares what some desert cracker-barrel philosopher ment 2000 years ago, are our minds really that feeble and were there so few other worthwile thinkers that we need to rely on this guy's one liners to guide our actions? life is complex, some self important guru mumbles simplistic formulars and u waste ur capable mind for going in circles around his rhetoric mumbo jumbo,the jews did turn the other cheek in each and every way, at the end millions died, so how many lifes was this self-important lofty religious bullshit worth? how many people should we shove in the oven to make jesus' point?

be proud and trust your own reason, take the help of our great thinkers but dont feel obliged to submit yourself to everything they say and maybe entirely avoid those who ask you to do so
RubyMoon
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:52:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/2009
Posts: 1,663
Neurons: 4,834
Location: United States
perci - Here's a partial list of science-thinkers and their contributions.
There are many such lists, easily googled. I'm not "preaching", just offering information in agreement with your statement/view-point --" great minds… possessed by religious folk" …


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

pedro - That's a very interesting observation, and probably true for the most part. But what about current-day "religious" scientists and mathematicians ? I fit both categories - a scientist/mathematician and a Christian, yet the "Church" has never played a part in my professional career.

Peace.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:09:29 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Pedro you opined: I do think that scientists' affiliation with the Church might sometimes have been more a matter of the cultural climate of the times.


Yes in a minority of cases that may well be true, but hard to prove, and it does make out the individuals to be weak of mind.

Let’s take one, Isaac Newton, who was conversant in mathematics, natural philosophy, physics, natural philosophy, alchemy, and Christian theology. He wrote extensively on religious matters and even had the guts to challenge the notion of a trinity of gods, although this work was not published, perhaps for the reasons you outlined.

Newton is but one. As to fear of the religious establishment, then we have all the martyrs who faced burning at the stake rather than change their views.

I would venture that in the main those folk loosely mentioned in my previous post, held their views honestly… most folk do.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:17:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/2009
Posts: 13,057
Neurons: 63,022
Thanks for the comments RubyMoon. I have always found it difficult to understand how a merciful God could tally with the crimes against humanity that have been witnessed throughout history. I did quote Einstein in previous posts as regarding any sort of personal God as a sort of hangover from childhood. He was, though, an admirer of Spinoza whose notion of God was the universe itself. This sort of theism has a certain appeal even to me. If combined with some Buddhist tenets it can be a workable way of living. The 'problem of evil' however prevents me from believing in a benign deity unless it is all going to be revealed in the great beyond as a huge cosmic joke. We've had this before but Epicurus puts it best;

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Romany
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 11:39:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 17,259
Neurons: 55,377
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Flocci - not that it matters a damn, man, but
a) I don't believe in ANY gods, elves, fairies, devils, angels etc. And
b) it was Uusschbaer's comment about 'bitterness' I responded to while
c) I don't get at all what you think I was trying to get you to 'confess' to? I leave the Spanish Inquisition stuff to Monty Python 'cos they do it so well. and
d) all I was saying - and (silly me) I thought I was being pretty clear about it - was... chill. Being angry gets us nowhere. but
e) Hey, if you like to be angry and hyper, you go for it.

Enjoy.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:07:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
You said Pedro: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing?....

Perhaps Pedro, God's time table has yet to run its course. It is logical that an everlasting creator would have a vastly different view on time than a person who lives on average 70 or eighty years. There may be long term, and serious reasons, such as a universal issue that cannot at the start be settled by force, for his permission of wickedness.

The fact that something has not as yet occurred, is no proof it will not.

PS: Einstein was a great admirer of Jesus and once said that all man's ill could be cured by observing his words. If you trawl through his quotes on religion you will find that he was ambivalant on the subject. No, he did not believe in a personal god but he was not an atheist, and claimed he 'did not know.'

"Emil Ludwig's Jesus," replied Einstein, "is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."



George Viereck: “You accept the historical existence of Jesus?”

Einstein: “Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus.”

George Viereck: “Ludwig Lewisohn, in one of his recent books, claims that many of the sayings of Jesus paraphrase the sayings of other prophets.”

Einstein: “No man,” Einstein replied, “can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he.”

....."In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

...."I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

....'Our time is distinguished by wonderful achievements in the fields of scientific understanding and the technical application of those insights. Who would not be cheered by this? But let us not forget that knowledge and skills alone cannot lead humanity to a happy and dignified life. Humanity has every reason to place the proclaimers of high moral standards and values above the discoverers of objective truth. What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the enquiring and constructive mind.

....What these blessed men have given us we must guard and try to keep alive with all our strength if humanity is not to lose its dignity, the security of its existence, and its joy in living.




Also: http://bonya.wordpress.com/2007/09/09/albert-einstein-and-jesus/
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:23:39 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
Quote:
You mean servile minds like Copernicus… Michael Angelo… Newton… Alexander Fleming etcetera, etcetera.

well exceptions prove the rule, for each of these you have a huge mass of servile "humble folk", and sorry but i missed the parts of the bible that talk about the glory of artistic or scientific persuit (although given that might be different in other religions), of course an artistic unpolitical mind can weave a nice work of art out of the stories provided by bible, i didnt say its bad entertainment

and as i have stated before: i am amazed how a good brand name like jesus and its world class marketing can make seemingly fine minds contemplate platitudes at length! even as fine as the ones u named, but really: do you think they did more then submit to the powers of their time, i know people who do brilliant and deep art but are politically utter morons, divide our minds into fixed compartments and conquer them

Quote:
Madonna once performed a song on the cross and in other videos seduced a black Jesus and had statues crying blood and, whilst incurring the wrath of catholic commentators, managed to avoid excommunication.

yes, because what the church really cares about is power, not upholding any profound truth, seducing a black jesus, oh so edgy -.-

Quote:
As to violence in war, then yes, but is that confined to the religious?

who said it is? your argument against religion being a poison is that there are other poisons? so in the end you are afraid of mans own reason so you pledge for trusting various snake-oil salesmen to keep his facilities in check? pick your favorite lier

Quote:
Your anger breeds contempt.

i find that a lack of anger when its appropriate breeds and shows more contempt

Quote:
but we cannot condemn in a blanket style, and dismiss our fellow man as idiots who cannot think for themselves can we.

yeah i thought like this as well, but sometimes moderation is inappropriate, sometimes you have to call things by its name, if the choice is between evil and lesser evil you shouldnt seek a middle ground, and you need a big blanket for religions that span the whole world and billions of people
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:35:34 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/1/2011
Posts: 1,523
Neurons: 3,404
Location: United Kingdom
Quote Percival Pecksniff:
'As to violence in war, then yes, but is that confined to the religious? '

Quote Flocc...: who said it is? your argument against religion being a poison is that there are other poisons? so in the end you are afraid of mans own reason so you pledge for trusting various snake-oil salesmen to keep his facilities in check? pick your favorite lier

Let me be clear Flocc...I am not arguing that religion has been, or is, free of poison... quite the reverse. That is why I do not belong to one. By the same token I am not disparaging my fellow humans, who in many cases hold their religious views honestly, and remain intelligent, clever, sensitive folk... many of whom grace this forum. Your blanket dismissal of those who have religion appears to me to be somewhat arrogant and haughty.

What you are in effect saying is that one cannot be clever creative or intelligent if one follows religion. Now plainly that is an untenable position to hold.

In my view, you unbridled anger weakens your power to reason.... and this is not said to offend but as a valid point.
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:45:50 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
Quote:
Your blanket dismissal of those who have religion appears to me to be somewhat arrogant and haughty.

i dont think you can find anything in my text saying i dismiss a person, i would not dismiss you as weak or worthless when u are the victim of a strong poison

for the einstein quotes: i can repeat myself again: i am amazed how a good brand name like jesus and its world class marketing can make seemingly fine minds contemplate platitudes at length! even as fine as einstein

Quote:
What you are in effect saying is that one cannot be clever creative or intelligent if one follows religion.

i think you want me to say that so you can hit me with the einstein-stick, acutally i said the very opposite a few times now, but ok again:

i know people who draw amazing deep art and can see through my thoughts and motivations in hearing a few words, yet they are completely clueless and defenseless when it comes to topics like politics, religion and metaphysics, some just choose to remain children in these areas, remaining a child has its benefits, and its probably a natural drive

take einstein here, unquestionably a fine, intelligent, highly educated mind:

“No man,” Einstein replied, “can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he.”

this is just ludicrous, or deceptive at best, ask real historians what they think, there is no real evidence for jesus, only vague clues that there might have been some jewish preacher in the area at that time the jesus stories might be based on


again you look to someone elses truth, just as you look to the snake oil salesmen to explain reality to you, you look for a merited world figure for confirmation, use your own mind

also for my point it is not really important wether jesus was real or not, im saying his teachings are immoral! asking that you love him more than your family just so i can get to heaven is immoral, eternal punishment is immoral, vicarious redemption is immoral aso.
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 8:54:04 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
i think its only human to look for authorities, even more so in matters where great things are at stake, in religion its our entire existence so this drive is very strong here, religions exploit this human drive, they offer authority on the topic

but i think finding the meaning of your existence is not something you should delegate to any authority, you lose your core freedom and responsibility as a human if you do so
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 9:11:42 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
Quote:
The fact that something has not as yet occurred, is no proof it will not

that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence
also that claim supports basically everything that is not, it does not support one specific bearded angry sky god


Quote:
Perhaps Pedro, God's time table has yet to run its course. It is logical that an everlasting creator would have a vastly different view on time than a person who lives on average 70 or eighty years. There may be long term, and serious reasons, such as a universal issue that cannot at the start be settled by force, for his permission of wickedness.


for having a vastly different perspective his demands seem oddly worldy to me, and also oddly in correlation with what a worldy institution with certain goals would command

also do you realize what you are doing with this quote, you submit your active responsibility and freedom as a human to the unknowable and infinite, and then you take a step further and submit to humans claiming to know this unknowable and infinite

why would you want to be a pawn in some superior beings game? because you hope it will save you from death? who says you will need anyone to save you from death, we dont know what happens when we die, maybe its the end, maybe not, also if someone asks you to do xyz to get immortality - does that sound like a moral, honest proposition to you?
floccinaucinihilipilificatinator
Posted: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 11:36:49 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/1/2012
Posts: 57
Neurons: 171
Location: Germany
Quote:
I am not arguing that religion has been, or is, free of poison... quite the reverse. That is why I do not belong to one. By the same token I am not disparaging my fellow humans, who in many cases hold their religious views honestly, and remain intelligent, clever, sensitive folk... many of whom grace this forum.


i dont think that when your friend eats something that you know is poisoned you would just sit there and let him eat as long as he does not show signs of sickness, or in case of partially poisoned food just hope he eats around the poisonous stuff

i respect anyones freedom to eat poison but i sure will tell them, scream in their face if necessary, that it is poison, because i really do care about them as humans, and i almost died from that poison and i know people who still do
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.