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Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, October 23, 2020 7:12:36 AM

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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Hello!

I'd rather it be driven home right away.

Is this the correct usage?
BobShilling
Posted: Friday, October 23, 2020 10:42:08 AM
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Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:


I'd rather it be driven home right away.


That sentence is possible. Note that the 'd is a contraction of would, not had.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 3:57:32 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

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BobShilling wrote:

Note that the 'd is a contraction of would, not had.[/color]


Oh... is it?

Then I don't get the grammar of this. I thought it worked this way:

either
I had rather it be driven home right away. (had rather + object + bare infinitive)
I am building on the TFD model: I had rather you let him speak.

or
I would rather drive it home right away.

FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:36:21 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
BobShilling wrote:

Note that the 'd is a contraction of would, not had.[/color]


Oh... is it?

Then I don't get the grammar of this. I thought it worked this way:

either
I had rather it be driven home right away. (had rather + object + bare infinitive)
I am building on the TFD model: I had rather you let him speak.

or
I would rather drive it home right away.



Some interesting information on "rather" and its use with "had" from TFD:

Usage Note: In expressions of preference rather is commonly preceded by would: We would rather rent the house than buy it outright. In formal style, should is sometimes used, though this can sound pretentious in American English: I should rather go with you than stay home. Sometimes had appears in these constructions, although this use of had seems to be growing less frequent: I had rather work with Williams than work for him. This usage was once widely criticized as a mistake, but the criticism resulted from a misanalysis of the contraction in sentences such as I'd rather stay. The 'd here is a survival of the subjunctive form had that appears in constructions like had better and had best, as in We had better leave now. This use of had goes back to Middle English and is perfectly acceptable. · Before an unmodified noun only rather a is used: It was rather a disaster. When the noun is preceded by an adjective, however, both rather a and a rather are found: It was rather a boring party. It was a rather boring party. Rather a is more typical of British English than American English. When a rather is used in this construction, rather qualifies only the adjective, whereas with rather a it qualifies either the adjective or the entire noun phrase. Thus a rather long ordeal can mean only "an ordeal that is rather long," whereas rather a long ordeal can also mean roughly "a long process that is something of an ordeal." Rather a is the only possible choice when the adjective itself does not permit modification: The horse was rather a long shot (not The horse was a rather long shot).

I grew up hearing it used both ways, with the 'd standing for "had" and with it standing for "would". Most often it represented "would", but depending on how it was used, it could clearly be for "had" as well. Most likely this was a regional style of AmE. Sentences such as, "I'd rather it would've been me" was using the 'd as "had". Not the best English.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 4:37:56 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 1,074
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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
FounDit wrote:

Some interesting information on "rather" and its use with "had" from TFD:

Usage Note: In expressions of preference rather is commonly preceded by would: We would rather rent the house than buy it outright. In formal style, should is sometimes used, though this can sound pretentious in American English: I should rather go with you than stay home. Sometimes had appears in these constructions, although this use of had seems to be growing less frequent: I had rather work with Williams than work for him. This usage was once widely criticized as a mistake, but the criticism resulted from a misanalysis of the contraction in sentences such as I'd rather stay. The 'd here is a survival of the subjunctive form had that appears in constructions like had better and had best, as in We had better leave now. This use of had goes back to Middle English and is perfectly acceptable. · Before an unmodified noun only rather a is used: It was rather a disaster. When the noun is preceded by an adjective, however, both rather a and a rather are found: It was rather a boring party. It was a rather boring party. Rather a is more typical of British English than American English. When a rather is used in this construction, rather qualifies only the adjective, whereas with rather a it qualifies either the adjective or the entire noun phrase. Thus a rather long ordeal can mean only "an ordeal that is rather long," whereas rather a long ordeal can also mean roughly "a long process that is something of an ordeal." Rather a is the only possible choice when the adjective itself does not permit modification: The horse was rather a long shot (not The horse was a rather long shot).

I grew up hearing it used both ways, with the 'd standing for "had" and with it standing for "would". Most often it represented "would", but depending on how it was used, it could clearly be for "had" as well. Most likely this was a regional style of AmE. Sentences such as, "I'd rather it would've been me" was using the 'd as "had". Not the best English.


Wow, thank you very much, FounDit! So had in had rather is a past subjunctive, and I understand the next verb is also in the subjunctive form then? I've never realised this.

Like:
I'd rather it would've been me. (But it hasn't been me, so it's unreal, and therefore would is used (the past subjunctive of will), correct?)

Then I wonder whether this sentence is possible:
I'd rather it be me. (meaning it is not decided yet, but I want it to be me.)
?

And I do note this is not necessarily the best English. Just trying to figure out the construction.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 11:14:25 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 14,641
Neurons: 69,796
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
FounDit wrote:

Some interesting information on "rather" and its use with "had" from TFD:

Usage Note: In expressions of preference rather is commonly preceded by would: We would rather rent the house than buy it outright. In formal style, should is sometimes used, though this can sound pretentious in American English: I should rather go with you than stay home. Sometimes had appears in these constructions, although this use of had seems to be growing less frequent: I had rather work with Williams than work for him. This usage was once widely criticized as a mistake, but the criticism resulted from a misanalysis of the contraction in sentences such as I'd rather stay. The 'd here is a survival of the subjunctive form had that appears in constructions like had better and had best, as in We had better leave now. This use of had goes back to Middle English and is perfectly acceptable. · Before an unmodified noun only rather a is used: It was rather a disaster. When the noun is preceded by an adjective, however, both rather a and a rather are found: It was rather a boring party. It was a rather boring party. Rather a is more typical of British English than American English. When a rather is used in this construction, rather qualifies only the adjective, whereas with rather a it qualifies either the adjective or the entire noun phrase. Thus a rather long ordeal can mean only "an ordeal that is rather long," whereas rather a long ordeal can also mean roughly "a long process that is something of an ordeal." Rather a is the only possible choice when the adjective itself does not permit modification: The horse was rather a long shot (not The horse was a rather long shot).

I grew up hearing it used both ways, with the 'd standing for "had" and with it standing for "would". Most often it represented "would", but depending on how it was used, it could clearly be for "had" as well. Most likely this was a regional style of AmE. Sentences such as, "I'd rather it would've been me" was using the 'd as "had". Not the best English.


Wow, thank you very much, FounDit! So had in had rather is a past subjunctive, and I understand the next verb is also in the subjunctive form then? I've never realised this.

Like:
I'd rather it would've been me. (But it hasn't been me, so it's unreal, and therefore would is used (the past subjunctive of will), correct?)
Yes. The sentence is from a conversation I had with a friend as a teenager. He wanted a certain girl for a girlfriend, but she chose another. He was expressing the idea that he had wished at the time that she would choose him, but she didn't.

Then I wonder whether this sentence is possible:
I'd rather it be me. (meaning it is not decided yet, but I want it to be me.)
?
Yes. The sense is that I would prefer the choice to be in my favor.

And I do note this is not necessarily the best English. Just trying to figure out the construction.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 4:49:50 AM

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Joined: 10/4/2016
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Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Thank you!
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 5:18:05 AM

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Joined: 2/21/2015
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I'd rather it be driven home right away.

It's an American usage. British would be

I'd rather it were/was driven home right away.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 5:26:10 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 1,074
Neurons: 5,294
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Ivan Fadeev wrote:
I'd rather it be driven home right away.

It's an American usage. British would be

I'd rather it were/was driven home right away.


Thank you!
Do BE speakers agree?
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 7:17:30 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/2016
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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
Rather.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rather

Quote:
rather
exclamation UK old-fashioned
UK /ˌrɑːˈðɜːr/ US /ˌræðˈɝː/

certainly; yes:


Yes I would agree “I’d rather it was driven home right away”, sounds natural in BrE to me.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 7:50:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/4/2016
Posts: 1,074
Neurons: 5,294
Location: Moscow, Moscow, Russia
Sarrriesfan wrote:
Rather.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rather

Quote:
rather
exclamation UK old-fashioned
UK /ˌrɑːˈðɜːr/ US /ˌræðˈɝː/

certainly; yes:


Yes I would agree “I’d rather it was driven home right away”, sounds natural in BrE to me.


Okay. Thank you very much!
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2020 11:28:11 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 14,641
Neurons: 69,796
Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
Sarrriesfan wrote:
Rather.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rather

Quote:
rather
exclamation UK old-fashioned
UK /ˌrɑːˈðɜːr/ US /ˌræðˈɝː/

certainly; yes:


Yes I would agree “I’d rather it was driven home right away”, sounds natural in BrE to me.


Okay. Thank you very much!


I would find both very natural - I'd rather it be..., and I'd rather it was...
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:36:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/2011
Posts: 34,574
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Gosh - how complex this all sounds! However, I think that most of the differences are alternate usages of modals, infinitives and subjunctives, which can be combined in different ways with similar meanings.

I looked through all the suggested/example sentences here. I've spelled out the "had" and "would", but would normally use the contraction "--'d".

I had rather it be driven home right away. - Not how I'd say it, but sounds OK. As Ivan says, I'd say "I would rather it were driven home right away."
I would rather drive it home right away. - That's how I would speak. I think that in this situation (in which the subject of the two verbs is the same) this is the standard form. "He would rather drive it home", "They would rather drive it home."
"I had rather it would've been me" (from FounDit) - odd. I'd say it as "I would rather it had been me."
"I would rather it be me." - yes this is the present tense of the last one.
"I would rather it was me." - I'd say it "I would rather it were me."

You may notice that I was taught by rather pedantic teachers (mostly monks and nuns).

No-one ever (while I was at school) used the word "subjunctive". The "I were/it were" form was always called "the conditional".
"In hypothetical situations, use the conditional."

I think that the differences are not only American/British, but also dialectical within Britain. Like the famous (or infamous) West-country "I be going to Exmouth tomorrow", they are not "sloppy" or "bad English", just dialectical variations.
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