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What Exactly Does Freedom Mean? Options
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 5:02:51 PM

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What exactly is your idea of freedom in your country? Thoughts?

Written by an American, this is interesting read about what freedom means to him - interesting and thought provoking whether you are American or not.

https://news.yahoo.com/americans-finally-learning-freedom-100003564.html

Americans pride themselves on their freedom. Hence the anti mask movement and other attitudes.


“...Yet Americans are in fact an extraordinarily unfree people, oppressed and downtrodden on all sides, and have generally just sat and taken it. This is in part because our typical notion of freedom, based entirely around the ability of the individual to do what he or she wants free of government interference, is a preposterous fiction. Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that freedom from government is the highest ideal, when in fact government is the only way that any kind of freedom can be realized.

...America's extreme inequality is, in other words, a priori evidence of a vast and implacable tyranny — a nation of the one percent, by the one percent, for the one percent.”


(Comments on his article are welcomed but let's stick to philosophy and not get into politics or unpleasantness.)

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 11:03:52 AM

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I didn't read the opinion-piece. I want to philosophically look at freedom. A thought-exercise.

Freedom is lack of restraint - being able to do anything.
OK - so for ONE person, it means having no others around. OR having no concern or resposibility for others.
Person "A" is free - so they can take whatever they want from anywhere. Nothing belongs to anyone else. Person "A" is free to have it.
Person "A" doesn't like person "B" - they are totally free to kill person "B".

As soon as person "B" has any freedom to stop person "A" from taking something, or to stop person"A" from killing someone, person "A"'s freedom is restricted - they're not free any more.
Only one person can be totally free at any time.

A person alone on an island is free - with the limitation of the size of the island.

**************
As soon as more than one person is involved, there has to be compromise - there are môres, agreements in society.
"I won't kill anyone else, and no-one kills me - OK?" - everyone's freedom to kill is restricted equally, so no-one complains very much.
"I won't take anyone else's stuff and no-one takes mine - OK?" - everyone's freedom to have is restricted, but no-one complains very much.

This works great, so long as everyone is moral.
But what happens when someone breaks the agreement? They are no longer part of the society, so any other member meeting them kills them.

Every person is a law unto themselves.
The Vigilante society.
No government.
Anarchy by definition. But most free for the moral majority.

*****************
The larger the society, the less free people must be.
Why?
Because in a society of 50 people, there are only 49 who want slightly different things than 'the one'.
In a society of 1000, there are 999 "opponents" for anyone who wants to be totally free to do anything.
In a society of 300 million, there are 299,999,999 others to look out for.

There are two choices (extremes).

1. Tooth & claw.
The stronger/richer/more powerful ones improve their own freedoms by force at the expense of the others.
This may not be too bad initially - the people who are willing to work harder to build up power are often the more responsible, and will just end up as leaders of a society of peers.
However, when this goes through several generations, we will no doubt end up with one of the inherited 'powers' being asocial - they'll cheat, steal from, enslave those who are less powerful.
This is a snowball system - the slaves become less and less free, and the few become more and more powerful.
Till you end up with 95% of the wealth and power owned by 1% of the people. 99% are not free.

2. Total responsibility.
Every person takes it as their responsibility and mission in life to enhance the freedoms of the whole society - every member.
The flaw in this is that not everyone will be willing to do that. We end up with a class of people working to enforce the original agreements. OK if they are willing to do that.
But that class (the government) can be infiltrated by individuals who want power for themselves . . .

Neither extreme will work.

FounDit
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 11:43:04 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:


2. Total responsibility.
Every person takes it as their responsibility and mission in life to enhance the freedoms of the whole society - every member.
The flaw in this is that not everyone will be willing to do that. We end up with a class of people working to enforce the original agreements. OK if they are willing to do that.
But that class (the government) can be infiltrated by individuals who want power for themselves . . .

Neither extreme will work.


So then, the idea is born that a better system is to limit the power(s) of the government; restrict the government to specific things that it cannot do, and empower the people for whom government is created and for whom it is to serve.

But for this system to work, the people have to constantly monitor those who are given power to ensure they don't corrupt it and abuse both the system and the power that it gives them. Failure to do so will result in the system breaking down and not working as designed. This is why educations is so important to keeping the system functioning properly.
towan52
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 12:54:58 PM
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More basically, one has to ask, "The freedom to do what?". Of course, as soon as any limitations are put into place, that freedom is modified. So, does that mean no individual is actually free?
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 3:47:56 PM

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towan52 wrote:
More basically, one has to ask, "The freedom to do what?". Of course, as soon as any limitations are put into place, that freedom is modified. So, does that mean no individual is actually free?


I think in the broadest sense you are correct, Towan. As Drago says it can only happen if there is only one person. Even in a marriage of two people both have to cooperate to make it work and neither is free to do as they please. If they do, the marriage breaks down.

But some are less free than others - I'm thinking of those incarcerated.


Too many points to discuss here but the article discusses “negative and positive liberty”.

Freedom from government is not the answer. Government with its collective decisions and rules is the only way that any kind of freedom can be realized with millions of people in a group because there has to be some sort of organization or it will be chaos.

Besides, people can't be trusted to “do the right thing”. Refusing to self isolate after exposure to a deadly virus or travelling is a good example. There had to be enforcement of mandates.

But the government does have to be accountable and obey the rule of law and this in democracies is what the free press does - with investigative journalism holding government accountable for the people to see what they have exposed. Thus, in a round about way, suppression of the press is thus a suppression of freedom. Suppression of the press has been the first thing in history to happen when dictators take over a democracy.
Romany
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 7:21:54 PM
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Back in the day I had reason to contribute to this same discussion in the real world - when the very first Government White Paper for the brand new country of Papua New Guinea was being put together: the joining together of two separate countries and various autonomous island groups. Perhaps a collection of the most varied groups which have ever elected to be "one nation under one flag"! Comprising over 700 different language groups - which, I strongly suspect, is a problem no other new Government has had to contend with to quite such an extent.Whistle

But what it all boiled down to, after serious discussion with all these diverse peoples, over some years, was that everybody just wanted to be free to be. To be free to make up their own minds about what they wanted to be.

The freedom to have a say in what the leaders whom we elected were doing and saying.The freedom to wear what they want. (a shared cultural link exists across the entirety of these mostly separate countries and states in village-life, that both women and men wear only one garment, which is worn on the hips or waist).

But they also want their children to be free to choose the pathways they want: to become a politician or an academic if they so wished. Or choosing the simple life of as a fisherman, or feeding their own families and being independent of external influences.

A lot of us were under thirty, and even the Prime Minister-to-be - Michael Somari - was still IN his thirties (well, only just!), we were all so very confident that, having been given this unique opportunity, we were absolutely going to nail freedom right on the head from the very start.

And, to this day, I say we did a bloody good job.

Yet even so - and without going into a polemic about why - look at the country of Papua New Guinea now. What is freedom there today?

So this rather caused me to think more about what freedom meant to me, personally. And I realise that my idea of freedom is exactly the same, really. To me, freedom is being able just to be. I have come to realise that I'm a bit of a square peg in a round hole so being free, to me, is just to be free from all the efforts made to keep bashing me in to that same unaccommodating orifice!

And as to the country in which I have ever felt the most free? Without doubt; and perhaps to some people's surprise; that country was China.
towan52
Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 8:59:09 PM
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My oath Romany - yo' sho dun alot in yore shawt life! Angel
Romany
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2020 5:44:23 AM
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Towan -

Yeah, I know. It's only since I came to live in the UK however, that I have begun to understand exactly how different my life has always been to that of so many other people's.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:12:23 AM

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FounDit wrote:
But for this system to work, the people have to constantly monitor those who are given power to ensure they don't corrupt it and abuse both the system and the power that it gives them. Failure to do so will result in the system breaking down and not working as designed. This is why educations is so important to keeping the system functioning properly.

Yes - but I might even broaden that from "education" to "knowledge".

Definitely, for any "democratic system" (in which I include anything from 'representative democracy' to 'absolute republic' - in which every decision is made by referendum!) to work, the people have to be educated in how the government theoretically works,
AND in the actual data needed for any change of policy (What are the real, unbiased pros and cons of Brexit? Unbiased data on who will lose or gain money with a change in US gun-control. How many lives will be lost or 'gained' if there is more gun control?)
AND in the actual, true and un-muddied aims, affiliations and hopes of each candidate for election,
AND in exactly what the government is really doing - without slant, bias or omission.

As Hope says, a free press is vital in this - butit has to be free and unbiased - not pro-government or anti-government, just exposing hidden facts.

As you both say - not "freedom from Government" but a limited, controlled, accountable government.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? Think
FounDit
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:33:29 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
FounDit wrote:
But for this system to work, the people have to constantly monitor those who are given power to ensure they don't corrupt it and abuse both the system and the power that it gives them. Failure to do so will result in the system breaking down and not working as designed. This is why educations is so important to keeping the system functioning properly.

Yes - but I might even broaden that from "education" to "knowledge".

Definitely, for any "democratic system" (in which I include anything from 'representative democracy' to 'absolute republic' - in which every decision is made by referendum!) to work, the people have to be educated in how the government theoretically works,
AND in the actual data needed for any change of policy (What are the real, unbiased pros and cons of Brexit? Unbiased data on who will lose or gain money with a change in US gun-control. How many lives will be lost or 'gained' if there is more gun control?)
AND in the actual, true and un-muddied aims, affiliations and hopes of each candidate for election,
AND in exactly what the government is really doing - without slant, bias or omission.

As Hope says, a free press is vital in this - butit has to be free and unbiased - not pro-government or anti-government, just exposing hidden facts.

As you both say - not "freedom from Government" but a limited, controlled, accountable government.

Sounds simple, doesn't it? Think

Yes, it does. Now if we only had some unbiased humans to run them...Think

But seeing as how we don't, we'll just have to keep trying to improve on the flawed systems we've already invented - flawed because there are no perfect humans.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:41:52 AM

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Romany wrote:
. . .

Quite a story!
700 different languages for a country of 8 million people! (Wikipedia says 851, including 11 which are not spoken now.)
Interesting that when the country was being "set up" it was expected to separate from the UK, but elected to remain under a constitutional monarch - who happens to be Queen Elizabeth II.

I always looked at "Freedom to be, do and have", but it's true - if you are free to be anything, then you can do and have too,

But always freedom balanced with responsibility.

I see what you mean about PNG, though. Freedom there is freedom to do - for man only.
Hope123
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2020 2:09:41 PM

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Drago wrote: But always freedom balanced with responsibility.

Exactly.


Also, I am old enough to remember when there were unbiased humans in both the American and Canadian press, and statesmen and women in the Canadian government who worked together for the good of the country. The party not in power was called “The Loyal Opposition” but that is certainly gone now.

Humans are never going to be perfect and the press back then probably had their personal biases - but they didn't let it show in their reporting. Barbara Walters comes to mind - I watched her for years and I still don't know and can't guess which party she would have voted for. The same with most CDN and American newscasters of yesteryear. Now it is mostly opinion with a bit of news mixed in.

Two federal parties just screwed thousands of Canadian students from relief money because their summer jobs were gone because of Covid as they
wanted to get the leader of the other party. My two grans lost out because of those two parties.

The minister in charge said the Prime Misister's office had nothing to do with her final decision but big CDN scandal - so quaint - he did not recuse himself from discussions as to which non profit charity would run the program and in the past his family were paid for speaking engagements. Not as if they were getting something now.

And both of those parties have similar connections to the charity.

Instead of trying to save the program somehow, the two parties asked the ethics commissioner to investigate. The charity not only backed out but cancelled a lot of good programs for kids.

Any $ program for students will be put on the back burner now. The opposition didn't care - party over country/students.

Edited - I just deleted the names of the parties so it is not political.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:37:15 AM

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Romany wrote:


But what it all boiled down to, after serious discussion with all these diverse peoples, over some years, was that everybody just wanted to be free to be. To be free to make up their own minds about what they wanted to be.

"...everybody just wanted to be free to be."

Free to be, free to live, to exist. Stated another way, it's the Right to Life, to choose how you will live your life. And that right, or freedom, ties into other rights, or freedoms.

If you have the Right to Life, you have a Right to Defend that life. Defending that life may involve associating with others in common accord, which is the Right to Associate, so long as it is peaceful and doesn't interfere with the same Rights of others. That Right of association may involve Religious or political beliefs. This would include the Right to be free to speak and think as you choose.

These Rights then, exclude the ability of any one person, or group of persons, to command all others in how to live, think, believe, or associate so long as these actions do not curtail the Rights of others. For that purpose, laws are enacted that specify punishments for violating the Rights of others. Under these reciprocal conditions, we establish what we call Freedom.

And should any person, or group of persons, seek to dominate, control, or violate any of those Rights, the people have the Right to demand a cessation of such violation(s).
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:51:36 AM

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FounDit wrote:
Romany wrote:


But what it all boiled down to, after serious discussion with all these diverse peoples, over some years, was that everybody just wanted to be free to be. To be free to make up their own minds about what they wanted to be.

"...everybody just wanted to be free to be."

Free to be, free to live, to exist. Stated another way, it's the Right to Life, to choose how you will live your life. And that right, or freedom, ties into other rights, or freedoms.

If you have the Right to Life, you have a Right to Defend that life. Defending that life may involve associating with others in common accord, which is the Right to Associate, so long as it is peaceful and doesn't interfere with the same Rights of others. That Right of association may involve Religious or political beliefs. This would include the Right to be free to speak and think as you choose.

These Rights then, exclude the ability of any one person, or group of persons, to command all others in how to live, think, believe, or associate so long as these actions do not curtail the Rights of others. For that purpose, laws are enacted that specify punishments for violating the Rights of others. Under these reciprocal conditions, we establish what we call Freedom.

And should any person, or group of persons, seek to dominate, control, or violate any of those Rights, the people have the Right to demand a cessation of such violation(s).


That is exactly what women have been saying for years. The right to live your life with control over your own body without others such as religious groups and government interfering by making laws THEY like when it does not interfere with THEIR lives.



::::::::::::::

Some people think freedom is a licence to behave recklessly and even dangerously without any consequence. That isn't freedom, it's anarchy.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, July 21, 2020 9:57:18 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Romany wrote:


But what it all boiled down to, after serious discussion with all these diverse peoples, over some years, was that everybody just wanted to be free to be. To be free to make up their own minds about what they wanted to be.

"...everybody just wanted to be free to be."

Free to be, free to live, to exist. Stated another way, it's the Right to Life, to choose how you will live your life. And that right, or freedom, ties into other rights, or freedoms.

If you have the Right to Life, you have a Right to Defend that life. Defending that life may involve associating with others in common accord, which is the Right to Associate, so long as it is peaceful and doesn't interfere with the same Rights of others. That Right of association may involve Religious or political beliefs. This would include the Right to be free to speak and think as you choose.

These Rights then, exclude the ability of any one person, or group of persons, to command all others in how to live, think, believe, or associate so long as these actions do not curtail the Rights of others. For that purpose, laws are enacted that specify punishments for violating the Rights of others. Under these reciprocal conditions, we establish what we call Freedom.

And should any person, or group of persons, seek to dominate, control, or violate any of those Rights, the people have the Right to demand a cessation of such violation(s).


That is exactly what women have been saying for years. The right to live your life with control over your own body without others such as religious groups and government interfering by making laws THEY like when it does not interfere with THEIR lives.

This is true when decisions about how you live your life doesn't affect others. But when your actions do affect the lives of others, then your fellow human beings have a right to an opinion and say about your behavior.

::::::::::::::

Some people think freedom is a licence to behave recklessly and even dangerously without any consequence. That isn't freedom, it's anarchy.

True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 8:22:30 AM

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Somebody (I forget who) said about American rights, "And what are these rights? The Declaration mentions three: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Obviously, these rights are not untethered from all other considerations. Life should not be lived in a way that means death for others. Our pursuit of happiness should not make others miserable.

Americans have forgotten that. We Brits are forgetting it fast.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 10:57:58 AM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
Somebody (I forget who) said about American rights, "And what are these rights? The Declaration mentions three: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Obviously, these rights are not untethered from all other considerations. Life should not be lived in a way that means death for others. Our pursuit of happiness should not make others miserable.

Americans have forgotten that. We Brits are forgetting it fast.

I don't think it's that we've forgotten it. It's just that in our societies today, we have people who make themselves miserable whenever they see someone else pursuing, or experiencing, happiness. They make it a zero-sum game.
"If you are happy, it's because you're preventing me from getting what I want". It's a childishly selfish attitude, but there it is.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 1:49:46 PM

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FounDit wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Somebody (I forget who) said about American rights, "And what are these rights? The Declaration mentions three: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Obviously, these rights are not untethered from all other considerations. Life should not be lived in a way that means death for others. Our pursuit of happiness should not make others miserable.

Americans have forgotten that. We Brits are forgetting it fast.

I don't think it's that we've forgotten it. It's just that in our societies today, we have people who make themselves miserable whenever they see someone else pursuing, or experiencing, happiness. They make it a zero-sum game.

"If you are happy, it's because you're preventing me from getting what I want". It's a childishly selfish attitude, but there it is.


Yes, and they make other people miserable too, and that spreads like a virus. But here's a little light relief: Two guys waiting at a bus stop on a cold, wet day; A Lamborghini swishes by, a young man at the wheel. One guy at the bus stop says, "I want to be where he is one day" The other guy said, "I want him to be where I am one day". That is probably more true about British attitudes than American. It is so true it is not funny, really.
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 3:36:29 PM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
FounDit wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Somebody (I forget who) said about American rights, "And what are these rights? The Declaration mentions three: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. Obviously, these rights are not untethered from all other considerations. Life should not be lived in a way that means death for others. Our pursuit of happiness should not make others miserable.

Americans have forgotten that. We Brits are forgetting it fast.

I don't think it's that we've forgotten it. It's just that in our societies today, we have people who make themselves miserable whenever they see someone else pursuing, or experiencing, happiness. They make it a zero-sum game.

"If you are happy, it's because you're preventing me from getting what I want". It's a childishly selfish attitude, but there it is.


Yes, and they make other people miserable too, and that spreads like a virus. But here's a little light relief: Two guys waiting at a bus stop on a cold, wet day; A Lamborghini swishes by, a young man at the wheel. One guy at the bus stop says, "I want to be where he is one day" The other guy said, "I want him to be where I am one day". That is probably more true about British attitudes than American. It is so true it is not funny, really.

Yes. Too true.
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:24:16 AM

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True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.

I'm going to address the two positions about this in the Politics section.
Romany
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2020 6:42:51 PM
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But, in the meantime: FACT CHECK: FD stated above: " anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis."

1. Those who have been protesting police brutality in Portland for over 50 days, have nowhere been identified as being "anarchists". Official reports refer to "a small element among the hundreds..." without specifically naming/identifying this element.

2.There was only one occasion - during those 50 days - which was declared a "Riot" by police: that was on Saturday night.

3.No-one at all has died in the demonstrations in Portland.(There was a story that one man had died. He had been injured. He did not die.)

4.In the riot - which took place on Saturday - demonstrators were [i]chanting[/i] about fire. It was this chanting which was being described as threatening in early reports. One small fire was lit inside a building and quickly put out. After the riot, some city dumpsters were set on fire. It is unclear who set the dumpster fires.

5. "On a near-daily basis" referring to ONE incident of riot in a 50 day period is demonstrably untrue.

FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2020 7:44:06 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.

I'm going to address the two positions about this in the Politics section.


Ooooo, be still my heart...ROTFLMAO.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 24, 2020 7:52:08 PM

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Romany wrote:

But, in the meantime: FACT CHECK: FD stated above: " anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis."

1. Those who have been protesting police brutality in Portland for over 50 days, have nowhere been identified as being "anarchists". Official reports refer to "a small element among the hundreds..." without specifically naming/identifying this element.

2.There was only one occasion - during those 50 days - which was declared a "Riot" by police: that was on Saturday night.

3.No-one at all has died in the demonstrations in Portland.(There was a story that one man had died. He had been injured. He did not die.)

4.In the riot - which took place on Saturday - demonstrators were [i]chanting[/i] about fire. It was this chanting which was being described as threatening in early reports. One small fire was lit inside a building and quickly put out. After the riot, some city dumpsters were set on fire. It is unclear who set the dumpster fires.

5. "On a near-daily basis" referring to ONE incident of riot in a 50 day period is demonstrably untrue.


It's rather odd that someone who is so pedantic misses entirely what was really said. I can only attribute that to the hatred that so thoroughly blinds one to rational thought. Everything listed has absolutely happened in some of our cities. So you lie.

What I actually said:

"...as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland...
Romany
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 10:11:32 AM
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Fact Check: Foundit, once again, states "You lie."

1. Libel:-
a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation.
"he was found guilty of a libel on a Liverpool inspector of taxes"


2. FD stated: "on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland...anarchists are rioting killing & burning on a nearly daily basis". The only city named in this untrue statement is Portland. If this statement is untrue for Portland then FD was at fault for providing the name of that city as a truthfull representativeion that in other - unknown and unidentified cities - his statement pertains.

.......................
Thus I repeat: -


1. Those who have been protesting police brutality in Portland for over 50 days, have nowhere been identified as being "anarchists". Official reports refer to "a small element among the hundreds..." without specifically naming/identifying this element.

2.There was only one occasion - during those 50 days - which was declared a "Riot" by police: that was on Saturday night.

3.No-one at all has died in the demonstrations in Portland.(There was a story that one man had died. He had been injured. He did not die.)

4.In the riot - which took place on Saturday - demonstrators were chanting about fire. It was this chanting which was being described as threatening in early reports. One small fire was lit inside a building and quickly put out. After the riot, some city dumpsters were set on fire. It is unclear who set the dumpster fires.

5. "On a near-daily basis" referring to ONE incident of riot in a 50 day period is demonstrably untrue.




Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 10:55:40 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 9,341
Neurons: 53,422
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.

I'm going to address the two positions about this in the Politics section.


Ooooo, be still my heart...ROTFLMAO.


No problem.

Your heart can go still any time you like. Whistle
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 12:38:37 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 14,083
Neurons: 67,067
Hope123 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.

I'm going to address the two positions about this in the Politics section.


Ooooo, be still my heart...ROTFLMAO.


No problem.

Your heart can go still any time you like. Whistle


What?! You want me to die?!...

I can't believe Ms. Empathy would wish death on someone for simply disagreeing with her! I'm shocked, shocked, I say!
towan52
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 2:49:55 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/2012
Posts: 1,966
Neurons: 224,837
Location: Waco, Texas, United States
You'd have to have a heart for it to stop, and I've always found you to be a heartless bar steward. Just messing with you! Whistle

On another entirely different topic, Towan is having a total left hip-replacement surgery on Tuesday in Dallas. I would normally be philosophical about it but, being on the wrong side of 70 and with a couple of other issues, I'm a bit anxious. If anyone has room on their prayer list, a quick mention would be greatly appreciated.

See y'all in a week or so
Romany
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 3:04:30 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 17,432
Neurons: 56,131
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

Oh Towan - what a ghastly thing to be going through in the middle of all of this! And Jeez! Who wouldn't be a 'bit anxious'.

However, I'm hoping that, by the time you get around to reading this it will all be behind you, and you'll be moaning about physiotherapy.Applause

All the best, my fellow Nom du Guerre. Can't do you anything in the prayer line but, if it comforts you at all, you'll be in my thoughts until we hear from you again.

Romany.
towan52
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 4:00:50 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/2012
Posts: 1,966
Neurons: 224,837
Location: Waco, Texas, United States
Thanks C, entirely understand - I appreciate your friendship!
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 4:37:12 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 9,341
Neurons: 53,422
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
True also, as we see now on the streets of some of our major cities such as Portland where anarchists are rioting, killing and burning on a nearly daily basis.

I'm going to address the two positions about this in the Politics section.


Ooooo, be still my heart...ROTFLMAO.


No problem.

Your heart can go still any time you like. Whistle


What?! You want me to die?!...

I can't believe Ms. Empathy would wish death on someone for simply disagreeing with her! I'm shocked, shocked, I say!


Double entendres can be interpreted which ever way you want. 😇 Just a joke as I know you love jokes and you left yourself wide open there.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 4:54:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 14,083
Neurons: 67,067
towan52 wrote:
You'd have to have a heart for it to stop, and I've always found you to be a heartless bar steward. Just messing with you! Whistle

On another entirely different topic, Towan is having a total left hip-replacement surgery on Tuesday in Dallas. I would normally be philosophical about it but, being on the wrong side of 70 and with a couple of other issues, I'm a bit anxious. If anyone has room on their prayer list, a quick mention would be greatly appreciated.

See y'all in a week or so

Ay, Matey! I'm a cold one, for sartain. Still, I think I managed to thaw a teeny spot in the corner of me frozen heart in order to wish you well, and hope you have a speedy recovery with no complications.

Arrgh, the storm be upon me. Time to batten down the hatches as me power be a-flickering. Later, mateys.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 5:09:17 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 9,341
Neurons: 53,422
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
towan52 wrote:
You'd have to have a heart for it to stop, and I've always found you to be a heartless bar steward. Just messing with you! Whistle

On another entirely different topic, Towan is having a total left hip-replacement surgery on Tuesday in Dallas. I would normally be philosophical about it but, being on the wrong side of 70 and with a couple of other issues, I'm a bit anxious. If anyone has room on their prayer list, a quick mention would be greatly appreciated.

See y'all in a week or so


Towan, I am surprised Texas is still doing elective surgery but the safest place to be right now is on a surgical ward of a hospital where they are taking many extra safety.precautions.

If it is of any help, I had a hip replacement in 2018 a month shy of 78 and these surgeons could do hip replacements in their sleep.

A little anecdote - in the operating room as they were getting me ready, the anesthesiologist was fumbling a bit with a tube and said to me that today was his first day. I looked at him and said, “Well I don't really want to hear that”. The whole staff in there broke out into laughter and hastened to explain he meant first day on their team. He was a 12 year veteran in his field. He was still laughing when he came in to see me while I was in recovery. The meds they use these days are super - you go right out and come back out afterwards wide awake with no after effects. They gave me a spinal block of some kind before they put me out. They also give you meds to keep you out of pain. If I recall correctly I was off all meds before a month was up.

Hardest things will be to follow all the movement precautions afterwards and to do the prescribed exercises. Expect all your friends to remind you to do your exercises. 😀

Moving from a one floor condo to a bungaloft two months ago where I am now doing stairs has really helped to strengthen my legs and I forget I've even had a replacement these days.

Best wishes and keep us posted.
towan52
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 10:42:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/2012
Posts: 1,966
Neurons: 224,837
Location: Waco, Texas, United States
Thanks Hope,

It's become so bad that it doesn't rate as elective any longer. The hip is collapsing and the surgeon (did my right hip about 7 years ago) wants to get it done before everything fuses together. I appreciate you guys very much - even "matey" Foundit.
towan52
Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2020 10:44:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 8/28/2012
Posts: 1,966
Neurons: 224,837
Location: Waco, Texas, United States
FounDit wrote:
towan52 wrote:
You'd have to have a heart for it to stop, and I've always found you to be a heartless bar steward. Just messing with you! Whistle

On another entirely different topic, Towan is having a total left hip-replacement surgery on Tuesday in Dallas. I would normally be philosophical about it but, being on the wrong side of 70 and with a couple of other issues, I'm a bit anxious. If anyone has room on their prayer list, a quick mention would be greatly appreciated.

See y'all in a week or so

Ay, Matey! I'm a cold one, for sartain. Still, I think I managed to thaw a teeny spot in the corner of me frozen heart in order to wish you well, and hope you have a speedy recovery with no complications.

Arrgh, the storm be upon me. Time to batten down the hatches as me power be a-flickering. Later, mateys.


Thanks Dave, stay safe in the storm - look after you and yours
Hope123
Posted: Friday, July 31, 2020 9:22:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 9,341
Neurons: 53,422
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Was thinking,of you on Tuesday, Towan.

Hope you are out of the hospital and beginning to recuperate today, Friday. You'll get this message when you come back; we hope that is soon.
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