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Is the hard shut-down a bad idea? Options
rmberwin
Posted: Saturday, May 2, 2020 1:49:57 PM

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I live in California and I don't doubt that Gov. Newsom has good intentions, but the situation is inherently problematic. Like anyone, he has prejudices and biases. And with the absence of the legislature it's easy for him to surround himself with people who think like him. But then no contrary opinions or options are being discussed. For example, there are reputable epidemiologists who think that the hard shut-down is a bad idea. Logically it would have to go on until a vaccine is developed, because opening up would simply be a reset, without herd immunity being attained.

Below is a Noble prize winner making the point about herd immunity. He also remarks that 1) Infected children do not pass on the virus to adults, so why are schools closed? (And no child in California has died from the virus.); and 2) In practical terms, all lives are not equally valuable. An 85 year old with limited time cannot be equated with a young person. (Who wouldn't want to be young again, with better health and more time left?) Newsom is playing into the worst stereotypes of liberals--that they want to make life risk-free and that government control is the way to do that.

https://youtu.be/bl-sZdfLcEk





FounDit
Posted: Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:57:32 PM

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rmberwin wrote:
I live in California and I don't doubt that Gov. Newsom has good intentions, but the situation is inherently problematic. Like anyone, he has prejudices and biases. And with the absence of the legislature it's easy for him to surround himself with people who think like him. But then no contrary opinions or options are being discussed. For example, there are reputable epidemiologists who think that the hard shut-down is a bad idea. Logically it would have to go on until a vaccine is developed, because opening up would simply be a reset, without herd immunity being attained.

Below is a Noble prize winner making the point about herd immunity. He also remarks that 1) Infected children do not pass on the virus to adults, so why are schools closed? (And no child in California has died from the virus.); and 2) In practical terms, all lives are not equally valuable. An 85 year old with limited time cannot be equated with a young person. (Who wouldn't want to be young again, with better health and more time left?) Newsom is playing into the worst stereotypes of liberals--that they want to make life risk-free and that government control is the way to do that.

https://youtu.be/bl-sZdfLcEk

I didn't watch the video because I already have solid ideas about this.

1. Our Constitution declares that our liberties DO NOT come from the government. Therefore, the government CANNOT take them away.

2. Any politician who seeks to punish someone for exercising their rights under the Constitution, a document all politicians swear to protect, defend, and support, are committing an UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT.

3. Any law enforcement officer who goes along with such an order is enforcing an ILLEGAL action, and is therefore not a law enforcement officer, but an illegal enforcement officer.

4. If the government wants us to stay at home, and/or engage in social distancing, it may SUGGEST we do so, but it must allow this to be voluntary! The government has NO AUTHORITY to force people to give up their rights under our Constitution.

5. People all across the country should be demanding that these orders be revoked, and VOLUNTARY compliance be the norm.

All this applies only to the U.S. Other countries can do as they think best, but we have a Constitution that GUARANTEES us the freedom to engage in our RIGHTS. We'd better stand up for them, or they WILL be taken away.

But that's just my opinion.








Hope123
Posted: Saturday, May 2, 2020 6:57:12 PM

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This rallying around the constitution reminds me of the old saying about who has the right-of-way at a four-way stop - I'd rather be right than dead right.


I take issue with the Nobel Prize winner playing God as to whose life is more valuable.

Also children, even babies, have died from this virus, plus what proof do they have that children do not pass it on? They don't really know a whole lot about how this virus acts.

Rmberwin, you have heard that many young people with mild cases or even asymptomatic but tested positive are now having heart or stroke problems? Thirty year-olds being fine and then nearly dying while being left with damaged hearts needing meds and care for the rest of their lives.

Opening up slowly and carefully few industries at a time with people cooperating by social distancing and wearing non medical masks in public seems to be working in several countries or constituencies.

Hope123
Posted: Saturday, May 2, 2020 8:48:47 PM

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FounDit wrote:
rmberwin wrote:
I live in California and I don't doubt that Gov. Newsom has good intentions, but the situation is inherently problematic. Like anyone, he has prejudices and biases. And with the absence of the legislature it's easy for him to surround himself with people who think like him. But then no contrary opinions or options are being discussed. For example, there are reputable epidemiologists who think that the hard shut-down is a bad idea. Logically it would have to go on until a vaccine is developed, because opening up would simply be a reset, without herd immunity being attained.

Below is a Noble prize winner making the point about herd immunity. He also remarks that 1) Infected children do not pass on the virus to adults, so why are schools closed? (And no child in California has died from the virus.); and 2) In practical terms, all lives are not equally valuable. An 85 year old with limited time cannot be equated with a young person. (Who wouldn't want to be young again, with better health and more time left?) Newsom is playing into the worst stereotypes of liberals--that they want to make life risk-free and that government control is the way to do that.

https://youtu.be/bl-sZdfLcEk

I didn't watch the video because I already have solid ideas about this.

1. Our Constitution declares that our liberties DO NOT come from the government. Therefore, the government CANNOT take them away.

2. Any politician who seeks to punish someone for exercising their rights under the Constitution, a document all politicians swear to protect, defend, and support, are committing an UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT.

3. Any law enforcement officer who goes along with such an order is enforcing an ILLEGAL action, and is therefore not a law enforcement officer, but an illegal enforcement officer.

4. If the government wants us to stay at home, and/or engage in social distancing, it may SUGGEST we do so, but it must allow this to be voluntary! The government has NO AUTHORITY to force people to give up their rights under our Constitution.

5. People all across the country should be demanding that these orders be revoked, and VOLUNTARY compliance be the norm.

All this applies only to the U.S. Other countries can do as they think best, but we have a Constitution that GUARANTEES us the freedom to engage in our RIGHTS. We'd better stand up for them, or they WILL be taken away.

But that's just my opinion.




So FD, if you are wanting to make sure the “freedom to engage in our rights” that is guaranteed by the Constitution cannot be taken away, then although I don't know enough about the jurisdictions of states and the federal govt, I should think the following quote by Trump would bother you too when there are supposed to be checks and balances on the powers of the branches of government.

I came across the paragraph I quoted in an opinion piece on Canadian TV comparing how the two countries, Canada and the US, have dealt with the crisis. Canadians fight amongst ourselves but when push came to shove, we learned from earlier negative experiences, didn't play politics, and pulled together to defeat the common enemy. This did not happen in the US. With no Federal leadership, the states were on their own, competing with each other - and the feds are still taking PPE that has been bought and paid for by the states and are selling it to the highest bidder.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/compared-to-u-s-canada-s-covid-19-response-a-case-study-in-political-civility-1.4895357

Stateside, meanwhile, governors on both the east and west coasts, each hit hard by COVID-19, got together Monday to strategize the best way to re-open their shuttered economies, openly if not explicitly defying Trump's insistence that when the time comes, "sooner rather than later," it will be the U.S. president's decision to make.

He made that argument again Monday, in breathtaking fashion.

"The president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's got to be," Trump said during a brazen, unrestrained news conference so drenched in partisanship that it even included a campaign-ad sizzle reel, assembled by White House staffers, meant to defend his administration's response.

"That being said, we're getting along very well with the governors and I feel very certain that there won't be a problem."

FounDit
Posted: Saturday, May 2, 2020 9:45:57 PM

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I am bothered by it, Hope. I don't always agree with the President in how he words things, and I especially don't like the idea that we can be forbidden to exercise our rights by a simple declaration.

I understand the intent of saving lives, and protecting people, but I don't think a shut-down was necessary - at least not until we saw evidence it was necessary by a growing death toll. But even then, it should have been a request, not a command, and it should have been voluntary. Let the people be given the facts, then let them decide. We rule, not the government, except by our consent.

We Americans tend to trust our leaders, but this can be a costly mistake and a dangerous idea. They must always be watched and monitored. I think most people felt they could give up their freedoms temporarily, and trust they could take them back when it's safe to do so, but to me, this is very dangerous, and sets a very bad precedent. We should NEVER willingly give up freedoms. They've come at too great a cost to treat them so cavalierly.
Lotje1000
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 3:54:56 AM

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Firstly, I'd like to reiterate Hope's point that children do get the virus and have died from it. And I know they can pass it on to other people. There are cases among my friends where their child was the first to show symptoms and then the parents got it too. The virus is transmitted through close contact, through saliva particles in the air when someone sneezes or coughs. I would take a long hard look at anyone who proclaims children are somehow exempt from this.

The main thing children have going for them is that they seem to have a hardier immune system and fewer underlying issues that can be aggravated by the virus. But even asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus - it's just less likely than for someone who's coughing and sneezing all over the place.

Secondly, the world has had a whole lot of warning. First with the situation in China, then with the situation in Italy. If that is not enough "evidence that it was necessary by a growing death toll", then we're not looking at the facts of how a virus works. Then we're back into magical thinking that it'll somehow not happen to us.

Thirdly, people are stupid. Individually they can be very smart, but collectively, we can be really, really stupid and susceptible to fear. Just look at all the toilet paper hoarding despite all facts that supplies were sufficient. This whole virus is a complicated challenge where governments have to juggle the lives and psychology of their people, the availability of their health services and their economy. I don't envy anyone who has to make decisions like that. I would love to believe that people have enough personal responsibility to listen to suggestions to stay indoors, but they don't. Their reasons can be as varied as ignorance and selfishness or as tragic as being forced to expose themselves by their circumstances.

No method is going to be perfect. There is always going to be that one character during the zombie apocalypse who gets bitten and hides it from the rest of the survivors, putting everyone at risk. Still, with all the information going around, I found this to be a very helpful simulation to wrap my head around which methods are available to combat an undiscriminating virus: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/
Epiphileon
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:07:15 AM

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What truly amazes me is the complete lack of historical perspective on the part of all these people screaming over government overreach in the face of a national emergency.
I would so like to be able to transport them all to the U.S. in 1942. Now tell me again about how patriotic you really are, and how much understanding you have of what it means to be a citizen of this country and a member of a social species.
FounDit
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 10:13:06 AM

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Epiphileon wrote:
What truly amazes me is the complete lack of historical perspective on the part of all these people screaming over government overreach in the face of a national emergency.
I would so like to be able to transport them all to the U.S. in 1942. Now tell me again about how patriotic you really are, and how much understanding you have of what it means to be a citizen of this country and a member of a social species.


It was wrong in 1942 also. There was no evidence the Japanese here in the U.S. were a threat to us.

But on another point, the HIV virus was quite certainly a death threat when it came about. Anyone who caught it was going to die - period- and we didn't shut down the country. The SARS virus killed with impunity also, and we didn't shut down the country.

In each case we went about out business and tried to be careful about catching it. HIV was primarily restricted to the gay community, but no, no, no, you weren't allowed to say that. We were told it was going to spread to the heterosexual community and kill everyone who caught it. But we still didn't shut down the country.

Another factor is that around 82% of people who catch the Wuhan virus survive it just fine, so it isn't quite the Black Plague we were told it was. Our medical people over-reacted, in my opinion, and panicked the leadership.

But all this is a moot point now, it's done. I have faith in our system and in the majority of our people that we can recover just fine, but I don't want to see a repeat of this in the future. I think we can do better.
rmberwin
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 11:19:11 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
This rallying around the constitution reminds me of the old saying about who has the right-of-way at a four-way stop - I'd rather be right than dead right.


I take issue with the Nobel Prize winner playing God as to whose life is more valuable.

Also children, even babies, have died from this virus, plus what proof do they have that children do not pass it on? They don't really know a whole lot about how this virus acts.

Rmberwin, you have heard that many young people with mild cases or even asymptomatic but tested positive are now having heart or stroke problems? Thirty year-olds being fine and then nearly dying while being left with damaged hearts needing meds and care for the rest of their lives.

Opening up slowly and carefully few industries at a time with people cooperating by social distancing and wearing non medical masks in public seems to be working in several countries or constituencies.


Yes, apparently children are able to pass on the virus--https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-30/children-with-coronavirus-may-be-just-as-infectious-as-adults

I didn't mean to suggest a "devil take the hindmost" approach to older people. If a more sensible response had been made then more resources would have been available to help the most vulnerable. In any case, my reaction to Gov. Newsom was driven by emotion--for example, I saw that the Hans Beauty Supply store is open while bicycle repair shops are closed. This seemed to me arbitrary and counterproductive and made me question the wisdom of Newsom's whole approach.

That in practical terms all lives are not equally valuable is already operative in our society in how we deal with the seasonal flu. If the tens of thousands of deaths occurred primarily among the young, then vaccines would be mandatory, large gatherings would be forbidden, etc.
rmberwin
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 11:24:20 AM

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It will be interesting to see what happens in Sweden, although direct comparisons between the policies of different counties are difficult to make (Sweden has national health care).

FounDit
Posted: Sunday, May 3, 2020 12:16:17 PM

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I see nothing useful in comparing countries. Each are so different in age and cultural habits, that I don't think we can compare them. Each has to do what it thinks best for the safety of its people, but the people should be consulted, not ordered, unless they're happy with that.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:40:30 AM

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Lotje1000 wrote:
Firstly, I'd like to reiterate Hope's point that children do get the virus and have died from it. And I know they can pass it on to other people. There are cases among my friends where their child was the first to show symptoms and then the parents got it too. The virus is transmitted through close contact, through saliva particles in the air when someone sneezes or coughs. I would take a long hard look at anyone who proclaims children are somehow exempt from this.

The main thing children have going for them is that they seem to have a hardier immune system and fewer underlying issues that can be aggravated by the virus. But even asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus - it's just less likely than for someone who's coughing and sneezing all over the place.


They are finding that children are getting a disorder requiring ICU treatments after they had Covid-19. It is “...toxic shock or Kawasaki disease, a rare illness in children that involves inflammation of the blood vessels, including coronary arteries...”

And I agree - the herd instinct is often very stupid.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 9:43:25 AM

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Allowing people to choose would be fine in theory. In practice, it would make the approach even more “scattered and chaotic” than what is already happening with no effective federal leadership in the US towards mitigating Covid-19, especially early on. 335 million people are never going to agree.

These are the facts of what is already happening in the US when the people refuse to cooperate with known helpful measures of social distancing and the wearing of non medical masks and gloves in public. When they protest in large numbers to open the economy now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-updates.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

(From Media Bias Fact Check re NY Times:“Overall, we rate the New York Times Left-Center biased based on word and story selection that moderately favors the left, but highly factual and considered one of the most reliable sources for news information due to proper sourcing and well respected journalists/editors. The failed fact checks that occurred were on Op-Ed’s and not straight news reporting.”)

“Almost every day, at least 25,000 new coronavirus cases are identified, meaning that the total in the United States — which has the highest number of known cases in the world with more than a million — is expanding by 2 to 4 percent daily.”

It has been reported that at least a few religious leaders in the southern US who defied the common sense rule of social distancing by encouraging people to go to church saying that “the blood of Jesus on them will protect them” have themselves succumbed to Covid-19.

Canada was ready to do so if necessary, but found it did not need to use the Emergency Measures Act which would have given broad powers to the federal government over the provinces because the premiers, even the Conservative ones, cooperated with the minority federal government. Canadians are chomping at the bit to reopen the economy but most are practising social distancing. Ontario is beginning to open the economy slowly with monitoring of results.

The medical field is still learning what this disease can do. Also, a recent article in the Lancet underlines the fact that scientists do not even know the exact pathways that lead to death.
Lancet - Learning Pathways to Death in Covid-19
Epiphileon
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2020 4:48:38 AM

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FounDit wrote:
Epiphileon wrote:
What truly amazes me is the complete lack of historical perspective on the part of all these people screaming over government overreach in the face of a national emergency.
I would so like to be able to transport them all to the U.S. in 1942. Now tell me again about how patriotic you really are, and how much understanding you have of what it means to be a citizen of this country and a member of a social species.


It was wrong in 1942 also. There was no evidence the Japanese here in the U.S. were a threat to us.
I was not referring to the internment of the Japanese but to the widespread and severe rationing of just about every type of consumable for the American public. Without this rationing it is very likely the war would have been at least more protracted and possibly even lost. In a time of national crisis, the citizenry was ordered to make sacrifices for the sake of the nation in general.

But on another point, the HIV virus was quite certainly a death threat when it came about. Anyone who caught it was going to die - period- and we didn't shut down the country.

A retrovirus transmitted only by a direct exchange of bodily fluids does not require the same types of behaviors to control its spread as a virus spread by respiratory droplets produced when a person with the virus coughs or sneezes, or by contact with contaminated objects or surfaces does.

The SARS virus killed with impunity also, and we didn't shut down the country.

healthline wrote:
COVID-19 appears to transmit more easily than SARS. One possible explanation is that the amount of virus, or viral load, appears to be highest in the nose and throat of people with COVID-19 shortly after symptoms develop.

This is in contrast to SARS, in which viral loads peaked much later in the illness. This indicates that people with COVID-19 may be transmitting the virus earlier in the course of the infection, just as their symptoms are developing, but before they begin to worsen.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), some research suggests that COVID-19 can be spread by people who aren’t showing symptoms.


This makes it a far more insidious and dangerous contagious disease all you have to do to appreciate that is check the numbers.

CDC wrote:
According to the World Health Organization (WHO), a total of 8,098 people worldwide became sick with SARS during the 2003 outbreak. Of these, 774 died.

ECDC wrote:
Since 31 December 2019 and as of 06 May 2020, 3,623,803 cases of COVID-19 (in accordance with the applied case definitions and testing strategies in the affected countries) have been reported, including 256,880 deaths.

3,623,803 vs 8,098 that is over 45,000% more cases and it is not over yet.



Another factor is that around 82% of people who catch the Wuhan virus survive it just fine, so it isn't quite the Black Plague we were told it was. Our medical people over-reacted, in my opinion, and panicked the leadership.

According to the CDC 70,802 have died in the United States from Covid-19 and 2,500 of those deaths were on the day before. So no not the black plague, and actually in the modern world the black plague would be less of a threat. Those 70,000 people are not fine, and neither are their loved ones nor the communities in which many of them served vital roles.
The increasing emphasis on the rights of the individual at apparently just about any cost over the good of the society, in general, is a very dangerous trend. This is what I meant by pointing out how the people of the US responded to the national emergency of WWII. Relatively little has been asked of us in defense of a threat that has killed over 70,000 of our countrymen, and yet many of us balk. It is a sad commentary on the social conscience of our society.



But all this is a moot point now, it's done. I have faith in our system and in the majority of our people that we can recover just fine, but I don't want to see a repeat of this in the future. I think we can do better.

OH but it is no done and probably not by a long shot. The easing of restrictions that are occurring throughout our nation is dangerous. I do agree that we have to do something, we cannot keep the economy at a standstill indefinitely the problem is you cannot trust people to follow the protocols that would make that reopening as low risk as possible. That's why the shutdown was necessary and even under that restriction people some folks were careless.
How many dead mothers, fathers, brothers, or sisters, is it going to cost?
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 2:14:14 AM

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There is a lot of discussion in countries with lockdown about its being good or bad. The governments have resorted to this measure on the advice of scientists and epidemiologists to save the spread of the deadly virus. So many rats have come out of their burrows to discuss the belling of the cat. But, unfortunately, no solution. Similarly, lot of discussions will not yield any results. Let anybody come with an alternative solution to save the humanity.
Ashwin Vemuri
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 6:15:57 AM

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The Shut Down should be considered an early long summer vacation and our lifetime's only forced vacation with no commitments whatsoever from work and/or business. Take it positively and it doesn't cost much to spend time with family and stay home doing stuff that was not possible due to busy schedules. Tingle your hobbies and read some books, sharpen your language skills, and tone down your weight to reach the correct BMI. This is Purely My Opinion and is not intended to influence anyone. I am penning my current situation.....
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 7:28:26 AM

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FounDit wrote:




1. Our Constitution declares that our liberties DO NOT come from the government. Therefore, the government CANNOT take them away.

2. Any politician who seeks to punish someone for exercising their rights under the Constitution, a document all politicians swear to protect, defend, and support, are committing an UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT.

3. Any law enforcement officer who goes along with such an order is enforcing an ILLEGAL action, and is therefore not a law enforcement officer, but an illegal enforcement officer.

4. If the government wants us to stay at home, and/or engage in social distancing, it may SUGGEST we do so, but it must allow this to be voluntary! The government has NO AUTHORITY to force people to give up their rights under our Constitution.

5. People all across the country should be demanding that these orders be revoked, and VOLUNTARY compliance be the norm.

All this applies only to the U.S. Other countries can do as they think best, but we have a Constitution that GUARANTEES us the freedom to engage in our RIGHTS. We'd better stand up for them, or they WILL be taken away.

But that's just my opinion.

[/quote]

Oh, FounDit, how I wish Russia was like this! Unfortunately this whole situation has shown us starkly well how our freedoms here are superficial and fragile. Just veil it with forged, one-sided and incomplete statistics and "expert" opinion being pissed in peoples' minds 24/7 by TV, and the government can drive us into a technically upgraded version of a Soviet-type flock at a snap of their finger. So now if I want to improve my health and immunity by taking a bike and going to the nearest river or lake, I cannot do that without getting a formal permission from the Mayor of Moscow, or if I do I have to be looking over my shoulder to see if there are no cops around. The black humor is that this is being done under the pretext of protecting my health.

I am not sure this is unprecedented, but this is certainly a major world-wide and coordinated attack on humanity. The important part is that once we're done with fixing the immediate damage, those behind this must be ousted from any position of economic or political power. Otherwise as long as they do have those powers the world will find itself in an endless series of human-made crises - financial meltdowns, wars, diseases, economic "recessions"... The stakes could not be higher - it's LIVE FREE OR DIE (not my slogan - I've seen it written by somebody, in the US it was I believe).
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 9:51:33 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
...it's LIVE FREE OR DIE (not my slogan - I've seen it written by somebody, in the US it was I believe).

Hi Kirill, that is the slogan on the vehicle license plates in the state of New Hampshire.

If I'm not mistaken it seems like you agree with FounDit that the threat of Covid-19 has been blown out of proportion. Please see my reply to FounDit in which I quote what I deem to be reliable sources. I am always ready to reevaluate the reliability of a source if shown verifiable evidence that it should be done; however, if the information I quoted in that post is accurate then the response by my government was only wrong in that it was late, poorly implemented, and has been continuously riddled with misinformation.

Freedom comes with responsibility, foremost among those is that no individual does harm to another or to the society as a whole. I realize that you live in a country where governmental power has been egregiously abused but quarantines in the face of a pandemic such as this one, I would argue, are a responsibility of government and not an abuse. Of course, they could be and even in the current ones there may be abuses of power going on that I am not aware of but in general the concept is valid.
FounDit
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 10:50:35 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
FounDit wrote:




1. Our Constitution declares that our liberties DO NOT come from the government. Therefore, the government CANNOT take them away.

2. Any politician who seeks to punish someone for exercising their rights under the Constitution, a document all politicians swear to protect, defend, and support, are committing an UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT.

3. Any law enforcement officer who goes along with such an order is enforcing an ILLEGAL action, and is therefore not a law enforcement officer, but an illegal enforcement officer.

4. If the government wants us to stay at home, and/or engage in social distancing, it may SUGGEST we do so, but it must allow this to be voluntary! The government has NO AUTHORITY to force people to give up their rights under our Constitution.

5. People all across the country should be demanding that these orders be revoked, and VOLUNTARY compliance be the norm.

All this applies only to the U.S. Other countries can do as they think best, but we have a Constitution that GUARANTEES us the freedom to engage in our RIGHTS. We'd better stand up for them, or they WILL be taken away.

But that's just my opinion.



Oh, FounDit, how I wish Russia was like this! Unfortunately this whole situation has shown us starkly well how our freedoms here are superficial and fragile. Just veil it with forged, one-sided and incomplete statistics and "expert" opinion being pissed in peoples' minds 24/7 by TV, and the government can drive us into a technically upgraded version of a Soviet-type flock at a snap of their finger. So now if I want to improve my health and immunity by taking a bike and going to the nearest river or lake, I cannot do that without getting a formal permission from the Mayor of Moscow, or if I do I have to be looking over my shoulder to see if there are no cops around. The black humor is that this is being done under the pretext of protecting my health.

I am not sure this is unprecedented, but this is certainly a major world-wide and coordinated attack on humanity. The important part is that once we're done with fixing the immediate damage, those behind this must be ousted from any position of economic or political power. Otherwise as long as they do have those powers the world will find itself in an endless series of human-made crises - financial meltdowns, wars, diseases, economic "recessions"... The stakes could not be higher - it's LIVE FREE OR DIE (not my slogan - I've seen it written by somebody, in the US it was I believe). [/quote]
And my wish is that you could have that freedom, too. Indeed, I would wish freedom for all who desire it. It can happen, but the people have to demand it, and suffer through the difficulties that come with making it happen. It is a very high cost to be paid, and there are not many who can, or will, do it.

LIVE FREE OR DIE is a variation on the words attributed to Patrick Henry from a speech he gave in 1775, which convinced the convention in Virginia to provide troops for the Revolutionary War.

That's why I am so disappointed in the number of our people who are so willing to give up their freedoms out of fear. It's a rebuke of our history, and an insult to the courage of those who sacrificed so much to give us those freedoms.

Death is a part of life and must be accepted as such. But it takes courage to face that fact on a daily basis and struggle through anyway. But people do it every day all over the world. Yet today, we cower like frightened children whose parents have scolded them into hiding in their rooms, out of fear.

We are adults. We can make rational decisions. Certainly, some will make foolish decisions, be we certainly shouldn't all hide like timid little creatures because some are foolish. I am in that age group that is most susceptible to dying from the disease if I get it, but I'm willing to face that and deal with it. I think most of us have enough common sense to understand how to follow some simple rules that seem advantageous. But in a land of freedoms, people have to accept responsibility for their actions, and that applies especially to the foolish.

If this virus was indeed a death sentence, that would be one thing, but it isn't. Most people who contract it, survive it. Only certain people succumb to it, but that is true for nearly every disease.

We can debate various aspects of how society should have reacted, but the one I would never go along with is sacrificing our freedoms for a sense of safety. Doing that sets a dangerous precedent, and can easily wind up sacrificing both freedom and safety in the end.

We are already seeing too many in positions of power using this as an avenue to abuse that power - like the judge who jailed a woman in Dallas, Texas just a couple of days ago for opening her business for her employees and customers, even while taking all necessary precautions. She and her employees couldn't continue to go without money any longer. Fortunately, wiser heads ruled, and the Supreme Court of Texas demanded she be set free, and today she is.

I could go on, but this is too long already. My main point is the one I made earlier: that freedoms come at too high a cost to give them up so easily. We should never do that.

Hope123
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:31:19 PM

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The reason for the shutdown in Canada was not because of “puny” fear - it was so that the hospitals and healthcare did not get overwhelmed. It seems to have been successful so that governments are now opening up more and more businesses slowly. But they have to be careful that there is not a second surge worse than the first.

Too bad North American governments did not react quickly at the beginning and close alll borders to all travellers, including citizens of their countries, for TWO WEEKs when the very first case was spotted and all this discussion would have been moot. It is not as if they didn't have warnings from the experiences of other countries. And two weeks would have just been a vacation.

Instead leaders were so fearful of closing down economies for two whole weeks - yet look how many weeks it has been now and how many people have been sacrificed. And don't say this is 20-20 vision - I thought it at the time when I heard there was a case in Toronto.

Canada did not end up this time using the Emergency Measures Act as it did in the seventies when there were terrorists in Quebec. But once that threat back then was over, and the act was discontinued, Canada's citizens regained their basic rights again. We do not fear we will lose our rights - we would just vote the government out if they tried. And that is why the parliamentary system is so great.

It is really sad that Americans have so little faith in their government that they have such a fear of losing their rights that they don't want to give their government temporary powers during a crisis.

Although I would certainly be fearful of the government they have now. I forget exactly how he phrased it but FD says he doesn't like some of the words of DJT. But Trump means every word he says. He thinks he has or should have absolute powers as president. Every act he has done is to make sure he gets that absolute power. Watch him go if he gets in again.

So yeah, I'd be scared as an American right now too, not only of losing rights but of losing democracy - and many Americans are.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, May 8, 2020 11:55:00 PM

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Saying most survive unless you are older is making a judgment about who lives and dies and how you value different members of your society. I don't accept that.

Also, young adults who get it with maybe few or no symptoms are showing up with major heart damage or are having strokes. Children are fighting for their lives with a syndrome from the virus. I wrote about this earlier but forget the name of the syndrome.

They really do not know much about this virus except it's novel so no one is immune and because it is upper respiratory it spreads so easily just from talking or being near a person who is shedding.
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Saturday, May 9, 2020 4:47:36 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
Too bad North American governments did not react quickly at the beginning and close alll borders to all travellers, including citizens of their countries, for TWO WEEKs when the very first case was spotted and all this discussion would have been moot. It is not as if they didn't have warnings from the experiences of other countries. And two weeks would have just been a vacation.



The first case was widely thought to be in Kirkland, Washington. However, this is now known to be incorrect. The coronavirus was already in the US and killing people via community spread well before this widely documented case. There were earlier cases in California in early February.

Northern California Officials Report 2 New Coronavirus Deaths From February

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/04/22/california-first-coronavirus-deaths
Oscar D. Grouch
Posted: Saturday, May 9, 2020 5:41:10 AM

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Oscar D. Grouch wrote:
Hope123 wrote:
Too bad North American governments did not react quickly at the beginning and close alll borders to all travellers, including citizens of their countries, for TWO WEEKs when the very first case was spotted and all this discussion would have been moot. It is not as if they didn't have warnings from the experiences of other countries. And two weeks would have just been a vacation.



The first case was widely thought to be in Kirkland, Washington. However, this is now known to be incorrect. The coronavirus was already in the US and killing people via community spread well before this widely documented case. There were earlier cases in California in early February.

Northern California Officials Report 2 New Coronavirus Deaths From February

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/04/22/california-first-coronavirus-deaths



France was even earlier...

French Doctors Find COVID-19 Case From December — A Month Before 1st Known Case There

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/05/851091042/french-doctors-find-covid-case-from-december-a-month-before-1st-known-case-there
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 7:47:27 AM

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FounDit wrote:


We can debate various aspects of how society should have reacted, but the one I would never go along with is sacrificing our freedoms for a sense of safety. Doing that sets a dangerous precedent, and can easily wind up sacrificing both freedom and safety in the end.



Yes, there's that, and there is also a pretty obvious medical aspect to it. The "lockdown", which for most people means staying at home while beeing constantly bombarded with negative news, exacts its own heavy toll on people's health. Plus, of course, it ruins people economically, and that is killing them too. And now this new insanity about wearing masks beyond any reason. People have already been prohibited to go out and work, now they are also being prohibited to breathe freely. So fewer of them can make it to COVID-19 I am afraid, as they may well die from heart attacks before they even have a chance to fight that one.

So lets' look at the facts:
(a) there's a virus that can be potentially dangerous especially with specific risk groups;
(b) the virus is very contagious, so it cannot be effectively contained. Even China and South Korea that were loudly praised for their containment measures now face new cases and new hot spots;
(c) the toll that the containment measures exact on both the economy and public health is growing literally by day and increasingly out of proportion with the original threat from COVID.

I mean, I never liked the idea of shutdown / lockdown in the first place, and I did say so back in March. However, I am not the one who takes decisions in this country. So Russia did adopt that same flawed approach that most other countries chose to take. But now as it has proven to be both counter-productive from healthcare standpoint and extremely dangerous politically in that it has allowed to potentially irreversibly suppress constitutional freedoms throughout the world, I think it is high time the course was fundamentally re-considered and changed.

Many epidemiologists say this epidemic will only stop after 50-60% of population develop the immunity against the virus (some say 70%). So the viable strategy cannot be about protecting people from the virus. It can only be about controlling the epidemic with the view of minimizing its effect and above all the mortality rate. So, protect the most vulnerable groups to make sure they remain in the 40% unaffected. With others let people follow some basic sanitary / distancing rules to keep the rate of infection and especially the rate of hospitalisations at an acceptable level, but otherwise please let people live, breathe, work, rest, excercise, swim and sunbathe as much as they want. So when and if they do contract that damned virus they can beat it easily, for their own sake and for the sake of their elderly and/or relatively more vulnerable neighbours.
Lotje1000
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 9:27:41 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
But now as it has proven to be both counter-productive from healthcare standpoint and extremely dangerous politically in that it has allowed to potentially irreversibly suppress constitutional freedoms throughout the world, I think it is high time the course was fundamentally re-considered and changed.


Could you tell me where it is proven that a lockdown is both counter-productive from a healthcare standpoint and extremely dangerous politically?
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 11:34:49 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
FounDit wrote:


We can debate various aspects of how society should have reacted, but the one I would never go along with is sacrificing our freedoms for a sense of safety. Doing that sets a dangerous precedent, and can easily wind up sacrificing both freedom and safety in the end.



Yes, there's that, and there is also a pretty obvious medical aspect to it. The "lockdown", which for most people means staying at home while beeing constantly bombarded with negative news, exacts its own heavy toll on people's health. Plus, of course, it ruins people economically, and that is killing them too. And now this new insanity about wearing masks beyond any reason. People have already been prohibited to go out and work, now they are also being prohibited to breathe freely. So fewer of them can make it to COVID-19 I am afraid, as they may well die from heart attacks before they even have a chance to fight that one.

So lets' look at the facts:
(a) there's a virus that can be potentially dangerous especially with specific risk groups;
(b) the virus is very contagious, so it cannot be effectively contained. Even China and South Korea that were loudly praised for their containment measures now face new cases and new hot spots;
(c) the toll that the containment measures exact on both the economy and public health is growing literally by day and increasingly out of proportion with the original threat from COVID.

I mean, I never liked the idea of shutdown / lockdown in the first place, and I did say so back in March. However, I am not the one who takes decisions in this country. So Russia did adopt that same flawed approach that most other countries chose to take. But now as it has proven to be both counter-productive from healthcare standpoint and extremely dangerous politically in that it has allowed to potentially irreversibly suppress constitutional freedoms throughout the world, I think it is high time the course was fundamentally re-considered and changed.

Many epidemiologists say this epidemic will only stop after 50-60% of population develop the immunity against the virus (some say 70%). So the viable strategy cannot be about protecting people from the virus. It can only be about controlling the epidemic with the view of minimizing its effect and above all the mortality rate. So, protect the most vulnerable groups to make sure they remain in the 40% unaffected. With others let people follow some basic sanitary / distancing rules to keep the rate of infection and especially the rate of hospitalisations at an acceptable level, but otherwise please let people live, breathe, work, rest, excercise, swim and sunbathe as much as they want. So when and if they do contract that damned virus they can beat it easily, for their own sake and for the sake of their elderly and/or relatively more vulnerable neighbours.


Excellent Applause Applause Applause I agree with you. I guess Lotje hasn't seen the information that 66% of corona virus cases have their source as coming from people's homes because of the lock-down.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 4:30:48 PM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
FounDit wrote:


We can debate various aspects of how society should have reacted, but the one I would never go along with is sacrificing our freedoms for a sense of safety. Doing that sets a dangerous precedent, and can easily wind up sacrificing both freedom and safety in the end.



Yes, there's that, and there is also a pretty obvious medical aspect to it. The "lockdown", which for most people means staying at home while beeing constantly bombarded with negative news, exacts its own heavy toll on people's health. Plus, of course, it ruins people economically, and that is killing them too. And now this new insanity about wearing masks beyond any reason. People have already been prohibited to go out and work, now they are also being prohibited to breathe freely. So fewer of them can make it to COVID-19 I am afraid, as they may well die from heart attacks before they even have a chance to fight that one.

So lets' look at the facts:
(a) there's a virus that can be potentially dangerous especially with specific risk groups;
(b) the virus is very contagious, so it cannot be effectively contained. Even China and South Korea that were loudly praised for their containment measures now face new cases and new hot spots;
(c) the toll that the containment measures exact on both the economy and public health is growing literally by day and increasingly out of proportion with the original threat from COVID.

I mean, I never liked the idea of shutdown / lockdown in the first place, and I did say so back in March. However, I am not the one who takes decisions in this country. So Russia did adopt that same flawed approach that most other countries chose to take. But now as it has proven to be both counter-productive from healthcare standpoint and extremely dangerous politically in that it has allowed to potentially irreversibly suppress constitutional freedoms throughout the world, I think it is high time the course was fundamentally re-considered and changed.

Many epidemiologists say this epidemic will only stop after 50-60% of population develop the immunity against the virus (some say 70%). So the viable strategy cannot be about protecting people from the virus. It can only be about controlling the epidemic with the view of minimizing its effect and above all the mortality rate. So, protect the most vulnerable groups to make sure they remain in the 40% unaffected. With others let people follow some basic sanitary / distancing rules to keep the rate of infection and especially the rate of hospitalisations at an acceptable level, but otherwise please let people live, breathe, work, rest, excercise, swim and sunbathe as much as they want. So when and if they do contract that damned virus they can beat it easily, for their own sake and for the sake of their elderly and/or relatively more vulnerable neighbours.



Lockdowns work when the goal is to flatten the curve for the healthcare sector. They were not meant to be the end all and be all.

Masks work. They not only cut down Covid 19 cases in Asia but cut down ordinary flu cases. They are not fun, especially if your glasses fog up, but you only need them while out and about. If people would social distance there would be less need for masks.

People should be able to self isolate for a while without having their mental health affected. Maybe this will teach those who never learned to amuse themselves to do just that.

Countries with citizens who mostly did what was asked of them kept their healthcare systems from being overwhelmed so doctors did not have to decide who got ventilators, lived, or died, as happened elsewhere. In those countries their financial needs are being met to tide them over till July, and the economy is being opened up slowly.

Nobody can ask for more than that.

Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 4:34:17 PM

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FounDit wrote: I guess Lotje hasn't seen the information that 66% of corona virus cases have their source as coming from people's homes because of the lock-down.

Really? That's a silly statement. The homes because of lockdown were not the source. The virus didn't magically jump into the homes. Somebody brought it into the home somehow.

Maybe you should read this. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242547366.html

BTW it was 66% of new hospitalizations in New York City - unless you have a different site of info. It was the only story with 66% in the title that I found.


“The reality is that New Yorkers, along with the rest of the country, aren’t truly staying inside all day, safe from exposure to COVID-19, the disease the coronavirus causes.
“I think that ‘staying at home’ is more than that,” Nathan Grubaugh, an assistant professor in the department of epidemiology of microbial diseases at the Yale School of Public Health, told McClatchy News in an email.
He mentioned that grocery shopping, walks in the neighborhood, ordering food and grabbing your mail can all expose you to someone who may be infected.
”There are lots of ways to get exposed,” Grubaugh said. “I highly doubt that many people are truly locked in with no outside contact.”


We were notified by our condo lawyer that there was a case in the condo building where we lived until two weeks ago. They were told to self isolate. Did they run the garbage down the hall and use that door handle? Or go to their locker and press the elevator button? Nobody knew who or whether so masks and wiping elevator buttons with disinfectant by everyone was the norm as the super could not keep it sanitized all the time. As far as I know nobody else got it as everyone was social distancing and following protocol.

::::

Ghana reported 60% increase in cases 10 days AFTER lockdown was lifted.

That is the challenge - keeping the levels down so the next surge is no worse than the first and the flattened curve helps the healthcare system.
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, May 12, 2020 8:43:54 PM

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An Australian's point of view re lockdowns:

Lockdown. It has never been the cure, it’s not the cure. It’s simply a human behavioural system designed to slow down our personal contact with other people in our community. If done right, the transmission of a virus is slowed.

There are three types of lockdowns.

1. Going hard and early. Australia and New Zealand are good examples. The virus has barely had time to spread throughout the community and is basically at the departure lounge when a lockdown closes all but a few available routes for it to infect the population.

2. Going hard and late. Italy is a good example. The virus swims in the community, infecting significant numbers for well over a month before any action is taken to slow it. That action is severe, much more severe than what Australia has instituted. This type of lockdown slows the spread of the virus but at the top of the ceiling. The number of infected people is so high that it continues to spread throughout small social circles, people who actually have to work, even the people who collect the rubbish. Italy went into hard locked down early March and it has taken it 10 weeks to bring the curve down.

3. Going soft and late. The U.S is a great example. The lockdown is not done early enough, nor is it severe enough and the virus just keeps spreading. Certain cities may slow the spread by instituting harsher measures like New York but overall, the disease moves around unhindered. The U.S recorded it’s first 2,000 plus daily fatality over a month ago. Yesterday, they still exceeded 2,000 daily deaths and their curve is basically stuck at the ceiling.

All 3 lockdowns hurt the economy and destroy many businesses. So governments can only afford to roll the dice on this once. If they don’t do it properly, they wreck the economy because of not only the initial lockdown but the massive viral aftershocks that follow.

All 3 lockdowns end and when they do, the disease will start to spread at a much greater pace.

In Australia, this coming week our restrictions will be partially loosened. This will result in an increase of Covid 19’s spread. Covid 19 is still in our community. Lockdowns are not like some pill we take that gets rid of the disease or it contains some slow release properties that keep working when we head back to work. No, once the door is opened again, Covid 19 will spread. In Australia, the main objective for the lockdown was to slow the spread, buy the health system time to beef up. That door is about to be opened.

Unfortunately some of the public commentary has given the impression to many Australians that they had taken that slow release pill and things will only get better from now on. If any of you were out today, you would have noticed a massive decline in people practising social distancing. The authors of this ‘pill’ doctrine will have a lot to answer for when this pandemic is finally done with.

If you have an underlying health condition, or are over the age of 60, the next phase will be extremely dangerous. Don’t take my word for it. Listen to Mary Louise McLaws an epidemiologist from the University of NSW talk about this next dangerous phase. I have posted a link in my comments.

In Italy and the U.S the disaster will continue. In the U.S they have stuffed this up so much that their second wave will make the current outbreak look and feel like catching a cold. (See comments posted yesterday from Michael Osterholm).

So this week. Just because you get to mingle with more than two people, it does not mean you should let your guard down. We are heading into winter and the cold weather will force us more into closed, warm and enclosed spaces. That will help the virus to spread even more.

Our fight against Covid is only 1 month old. Remember that it may indeed take two years.

Our health system is ready. Best we help them by making sure we don’t overrun their Covid wards too quickly.








Lotje1000
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 2:28:55 AM

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FounDit wrote:
I guess Lotje hasn't seen the information that 66% of corona virus cases have their source as coming from people's homes because of the lock-down.


Funny coincidence! 66% of the food that goes off in my house, goes off in the fridge! I should totally get rid of that useless thing, so counter-productive.
Ashwin Joshi
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 2:40:04 AM

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We totally are, at the mercy of the virus. It cannot be a hundred percent avoided. This way or that it has the capacity to reach our homes.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 4:35:17 AM

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And of course those who test positively for anti-bodies to COVID-19 should be immediately released from any restrictions on their professional or personal activities that they may have been subject to under the quarantine.

I thought this was going without saying, but recently heard a few rather worrying comments on TV suggesting that there may be a plan underway to sabotage even this clear-cut measure. I suppose it needs to be embedded in legislation and that's where it might potentially be put on ice.
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:23:13 AM

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Kirill Vorobyov wrote:
And of course those who test positively for anti-bodies to COVID-19 should be immediately released from any restrictions on their professional or personal activities that they may have been subject to under the quarantine.

I thought this was going without saying, but recently heard a few rather worrying comments on TV suggesting that there may be a plan underway to sabotage even this clear-cut measure. I suppose it needs to be embedded in legislation and that's where it might potentially be put on ice.


Allowing people with antibodies out and about would seem logical. Have not heard any comments about it at all. I guess it would take time to get all the testing done - that would be the drawback. So that would be the 1.49 M recovered world wide.

:::

But it really makes no logical sense to say:

a) I want to reopen the economy fast

but also

b) I oppose the safety measures - including masks and social distancing - that enable fast re-opening.

L.Rai
Posted: Saturday, May 16, 2020 7:11:56 PM

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Ashwin Vemuri wrote:
The Shut Down should be considered an early long summer vacation and our lifetime's only forced vacation with no commitments whatsoever from work and/or business. Take it positively and it doesn't cost much to spend time with family and stay home doing stuff that was not possible due to busy schedules. Tingle your hobbies and read some books, sharpen your language skills, and tone down your weight to reach the correct BMI. This is Purely My Opinion and is not intended to influence anyone. I am penning my current situation.....


BRAVO, AND THANKS...I AM IN CHINA AND WE HAVE BEEN AT THIS THE LONGEST AND TO BE HONEST I AM REALLY VERY TIRED NOW OF ALL THE DEBATES AND ARGUMENTS. THANKS FOR A NICER PERSPECTIVE.

We have to live with what this is and how we individually deal with it will matter. Case in point, just 2 weeks ago we had May Day here in China and people traveled inside of China. In our Province (Jilin) we suffered a set-back. We had been virus free and as of today we have 23 new cases, all can be traced back to May 1st, and 11 of the cases were in a single family. The small town of Shulan is where this outbreak happened. Facts, the family infected came from one woman in that family. No one knows where she got it because she had not traveled anywhere, they are still trying to figure it out. The rest of the cases have been contained so far to Jilin city and Shulan...both are now in full lock-down and quarantine. Anyone who traveled to those areas are in quarantine again. This makes the 3rd resurgence of this bug in the last 3 months.

Feb 1st our province went into a month of lock-down and by March 16 we were virus free...then the 2nd wave hit on March 26, then April 25th we were virus free again and now May 5 the 3rd wave hit. When the 2nd wave hit it was due to Chinese people who returned from Russia...this time we have no idea. There is no way to know when this will hit, but unlike some people around the world no one here can complain when we are shut down again and so we live with it.

My company has been shut down since Feb. 1st. We are NOT allowed to open until the government tells us we can. We have been without income for 100 days and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. It's been a long "vacation" without pay but now we are all ready to get back to work. No one here wants anymore time off...we'd all like to get back, but at what cost?

The high schools are back now, 12th grade went back first and one month later 10th and 11th joined them. 9th grade returned but 7th and 8th are still not allowed. 1-6th no one is sure, and Kindergarten...some say maybe Sept. Our school can't open until the Kindergarten kids return to public school so we could be without work in a real classroom for 3 more months. We are teaching on-line but if you are a teacher of K-12 you will surely agree it's not the best option. We can do that but we have ONLY been allowed to charge parents tuition for teaching on-line since May 1st. That meant for 3 months we had no income. It's been difficult to say the least.

Kids do get sick and several have died, some have died due to complications after they got better. Others will have long term health issues. While many are just fine, no one can be sure who will be fine and who won't. I am fine with an enemy I can see, but how do you fight something that you can't see? I feel like I am rambling...but I am just sick to death of this discourse with some people feeling they should push their rights because they can. Maybe if we all just tried to pull together in this and adopt a policy whereby everyone can agree to the rules, just maybe that would work and we could then get on with our lives. However, from my vantage letting people do whatever they like has not helped, and in my Province it has produced a 3rd round of this bug. Do I like being locked down, hell no, but do I want to suffer the consequence of just letting it "run it's course" not an option, Wuhan should have taught us that lesson, oh and Italy, NYC, and the list goes on. Maybe if we all can just see a bigger picture here, we might all benefit.

Just my two cents from Jilin Province China.
Hope123
Posted: Sunday, May 17, 2020 9:03:01 AM

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L.Rai wrote: Kids do get sick and several have died, some have died due to complications after they got better. Others will have long term health issues. While many are just fine, no one can be sure who will be fine and who won't. I am fine with an enemy I can see, but how do you fight something that you can't see? I feel like I am rambling...but I am just sick to death of this discourse with some people feeling they should push their rights because they can. Maybe if we all just tried to pull together in this and adopt a policy whereby everyone can agree to the rules, just maybe that would work and we could then get on with our lives. However, from my vantage letting people do whatever they like has not helped, and in my Province it has produced a 3rd round of this bug. Do I like being locked down, hell no, but do I want to suffer the consequence of just letting it "run it's course" not an option, Wuhan should have taught us that lesson, oh and Italy, NYC, and the list goes on. Maybe if we all can just see a bigger picture here, we might all benefit.

Just my two cents from Jilin Province China.



Glad to hear from you L.Rai but wish you had better news re your income!

And the third wave. Tells us what the world is still in for.

Yes, an enemy you can't see is so frustrating and people not following protocols are making it worse.

“Fewer faces and bigger spaces.” A motto of a CDN doctor on how to open up slowly.

Some studies have shown that people who reacted the worst were low in Vitamin D. So take your supplements, especially if you live in northern climes.



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