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Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them. Options
Daemon
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:00:00 AM
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Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them.

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Thommy
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 3:23:52 AM

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Ok,but what wanted he to say by that quote???
tootsie
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 6:42:43 AM

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exactically what he means, he says. As a daughter, mother and grandmother, at this moment in time, I could not agree more. I should state my occupation as "juggler".

GabhSigenod
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 8:23:56 AM

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Brilliant
kitten
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 8:52:28 AM

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'Tis a true observation.


>^,,^<
floyd
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 9:11:43 AM
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Yes, but I had good reason for not forgiving my parents. Angel

Well, OK, I forgave them. Just couldn't finish the circle and get back to loving them . . .

Your friend,

floyd


percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 9:43:12 AM

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I do not agree with Oscar Wilde at all. The reverse is true... nature overrides judgment in the majority of cases in the situation he describes. It ius a jaundiced remark very likely brought on by his own particular and difficult sexual experiences in the world of that time.
jcbarros
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 11:12:53 AM

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As you´re getting old, you become to understand your parents.
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 11:32:08 AM
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To Percival:

I don't understand your meaning of "nature over-rides judgment".

I think the older one becomes the more compassion one feels for their parents. Because the more one sees them as flawed human beings, the more one understands, as JCB has said, why they did what they did, do what they do etc.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 11:35:43 AM

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I think he meant:

People rarely forgive the damage done to them. That's why it continues to be perpetuated from generation to generation.
kitten
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:51:06 PM

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Daemon wrote:
Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them.

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)




[image not available]


[image not available]
It does NOT appear to have anything to do with Mr. Wildes sexual experiences at the time. Speak to the hand


The above quote is taken from a play entitled, A Woman of No Importance. The play premièred on April 19th, 1893 in London's Haymarket Theatre. The part below is from, ACT II. The Drawing-room at Hunstanton Chase.

It has to do with the upper class and the way they interact with each other. It also has to do with a young man who is employed as a secretary, by Lord Illingsworth, who is also his illegitimate son. The mother has reared the son without the fathers help. Below is part of the exchange. He seems to be telling her that she will be ill thought of if she doesn't let him, the father, after twenty years, help his son improve his lifestyle.

What is interesting is that he is chastising the woman who bore his son for still wanting to influence her son whilst saying he himself was influenced by his own mother and not his father.Think



MRS. ARBUTHNOT. You have no right to claim him, or the smallest part of him. The boy is entirely mine, and shall remain mine.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. My dear Rachel, you have had him to yourself for over twenty years. Why not let me have him for a little now? He is quite as much mine as yours.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. Are you talking of the child you abandoned? Of the child who, as far as you are concerned, might have died of hunger and of want?

LORD ILLINGWORTH. You forget, Rachel, it was you who left me. It was not I who left you.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I left you because you refused to give the child a name. Before my son was born, I implored you to marry me.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. I had no expectations then. And besides, Rachel, I wasn't much older than you were. I was only twenty-two. I was twenty-one, I believe, when the whole thing began in your father's garden.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. When a man is old enough to do wrong he should be old enough to do right also.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. My dear Rachel, intellectual generalities are always interesting, but generalities in morals mean absolutely nothing. As for saying I left our child to starve, that, of course, is untrue and silly. My mother offered you six hundred a year. But you wouldn't take anything. You simply disappeared, and carried the child away with you.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I wouldn't have accepted a penny from her. Your father was different. He told you, in my presence, when we were in Paris, that it was your duty to marry me.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. Oh, duty is what one expects from others, it is not what one does oneself. Of course, I was influenced by my mother. Every man is when he is young.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I am glad to hear you say so. Gerald shall certainly not go away with you.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. What nonsense, Rachel!

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. Do you think I would allow my son -

LORD ILLINGWORTH. OUR son.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. My son [LORD ILLINGWORTH shrugs his shoulders] - to go away with the man who spoiled my youth, who ruined my life, who has tainted every moment of my days? You don't realise what my past has been in suffering and in shame.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. My dear Rachel, I must candidly say that I think Gerald's future considerably more important than your past.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. Gerald cannot separate his future from my past.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. That is exactly what he should do. That is exactly what you should help him to do. What a typical woman you are! You talk sentimentally, and you are thoroughly selfish the whole time. But don't let us have a scene. Rachel, I want you to look at this matter from the common-sense point of view, from the point of view of what is best for our son, leaving you and me out of the question. What is our son at present? An underpaid clerk in a small Provincial Bank in a third-rate English town. If you imagine he is quite happy in such a position, you are mistaken. He is thoroughly discontented.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. He was not discontented till he met you. You have made him so.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. Of course, I made him so. Discontent is the first step in the progress of a man or a nation. But I did not leave him with a mere longing for things he could not get. No, I made him a charming offer. He jumped at it, I need hardly say. Any young man would. And now, simply because it turns out that I am the boy's own father and he my own son, you propose practically to ruin his career. That is to say, if I were a perfect stranger, you would allow Gerald to go away with me, but as he is my own flesh and blood you won't. How utterly illogical you are!

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I will not allow him to go.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. How can you prevent it? What excuse can you give to him for making him decline such an offer as mine? I won't tell him in what relations I stand to him, I need hardly say. But you daren't tell him. You know that. Look how you have brought him up.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I have brought him up to be a good man.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. Quite so. And what is the result? You have educated him to be your judge if he ever finds you out. And a bitter, an unjust judge he will be to you. Don't be deceived, Rachel. Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. George, don't take my son away from me. I have had twenty years of sorrow, and I have only had one thing to love me, only one thing to love. You have had a life of joy, and pleasure, and success. You have been quite happy, you have never thought of us. There was no reason, according to your views of life, why you should have remembered us at all. Your meeting us was a mere accident, a horrible accident. Forget it. Don't come now, and rob me of . . . of all I have in the whole world. You are so rich in other things. Leave me the little vineyard of my life; leave me the walled-in garden and the well of water; the ewe-lamb God sent me, in pity or in wrath, oh! leave me that. George, don't take Gerald from me.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. Rachel, at the present moment you are not necessary to Gerald's career; I am. There is nothing more to be said on the subject.

MRS. ARBUTHNOT. I will not let him go.

LORD ILLINGWORTH. Here is Gerald. He has a right to decide for himself.



Please thank http://www.quotationreference.com which lead me to http://www.en.wikipedia.org which lead me to http://www.gutenberg.org for the quote in context.


peace out, >^,,^<
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:51:36 PM

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What I meant Marissa is that the natural bond between parent and offspring in most cases overcomes the adverse judgment toward them and one forgives... especially as one makes ones own mistakes. My own feeling is that it is not my function to judge my parent and a sense of my own failings as a person strengthen that.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 12:57:15 PM

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Kitten you said: It does NOT appear to have anything to do with Mr. Wildes sexual experiences at the time.



I beg to differ Kitten since when we write we often express ouyr own proclivities in the body of our works. From his comments he obviously did not forgive his parents, and the climate being what it was it was those days I doubt his parents embraced his way of life... public as it was.

It is of note that Quote: 'Wilde's wife deserted him, his two sons were brought up under an assumed name, and they... unquote. So it follows he could have been thinking of his own children and thier attitude to him rather than that of his parents although he may well have been in a pincer movement..
tootsie
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 2:15:58 PM

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floyd wrote:
Yes, but I had good reason for not forgiving my parents. Angel

Well, OK, I forgave them. Just couldn't finish the circle and get back to loving them . . .

Your friend,

floyd




dear floyd, as deep as this thread may take us all, your post stood out. I am glad you have forgiveness for whatever you went through and you have already found love in your heart. Stick with us, you will like it here. T x

uuaschbaer
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 3:35:29 PM

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percivalpecksniff wrote:
I beg to differ Kitten since when we write we often express ouyr own proclivities in the body of our works. From his comments he obviously did not forgive his parents, and the climate being what it was it was those days I doubt his parents embraced his way of life... public as it was.

It is of note that Quote: 'Wilde's wife deserted him, his two sons were brought up under an assumed name, and they... unquote. So it follows he could have been thinking of his own children and thier attitude to him rather than that of his parents although he may well have been in a pincer movement..


It is only the slightest recollection but I thought his mother delighted in Oscar's public life and encouraged him to be himself. His wife did not, but this only became relevant after Wilde wrote A Woman of No Importance. For these reasons I guess that if he found inspiration in two unloving parents he did so in Bosie's.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 4:09:15 PM

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No... Wilde's wife was shocked by his homosexuality and did not want the children to bear the burden of thier father's disgrace. Even one of his lovers, lord Queensbury's son, renounced his former lover and tried to distance himself... such were the times. His parents were unconventional it is true.
jmacann
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 4:17:46 PM
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[quote]
---
"thinking of his own children and their attitude to him" is what makes sense. Judging others is a human flaw -who may pass judgement?
RubyMoon
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 4:22:07 PM
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no one may pass judgement, jmacann...
indeed a human flaw.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 4:29:53 PM

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percivalpecksniff wrote:
No... Wilde's wife was shocked by his homosexuality and did not want the children to bear the burden of thier father's disgrace. Even one of his lovers, lord Queensbury's son, renounced his former lover and tried to distance himself... such were the times. His parents were unconventional it is true.


I know how his wife felt but it seems pertinent to me that he wrote the play some time before the trials. I'm not sure I follow your second sentence but Queensberry's son was Bosie; Bosie and Oscar were still together after Wilde's release from Reading for three months or so, are you sure Bosie left Oscar?
RubyMoon
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 5:08:19 PM
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floyd wrote:
Yes, but I had good reason for not forgiving my parents. Angel

Well, OK, I forgave them. Just couldn't finish the circle and get back to loving them . . .

Your friend,

floyd




floyd-- I agree with tootsie, your post stands out and I have been thinking of it for hours.

For one thing, the quotation speaks to you (without context)...it doesn't matter who said it or why or when. The quotation the other day regarding Oz also spoke to you and you didn't want the context and the background-political-undercurrent crap to be un-earthed and tarnish the beauty of Dorothy's travels back to Kansas.
I get it, and I have tried many times to relate this *idea* on this quote-du-jour thread. I like to read the quotation in context, and we are all grateful to Kitten for posting it--(I sure as hell don't feel like searching for it)-- but often the quote hits such a personal, visceral target that context becomes extraneous.

The love-forgiveness-forgetness issue is so intimately & deeply profound and personal, and unique to individual experience that there is no "advice"... no judgement....
Just love and forgive your mother/father! Oh, OK... that was easy, thanks!
We must surely all want to love as fully as possible and be quick to forgive & forget... it's a divine grace; I suppose we ought to pray for "it" daily, and God only knows.

I believe it is once-in-a-blue-moon possible to actually go home again and find once more a loyal friend with enough brain-power, courage and a heart of gold to love you... that yellow brick road is such a pisser to travel though, ain't it?

blessings to you, floyd

RubyM





percivalpecksniff
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 5:21:47 PM

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Yes Bosie left him later and also renounced him... check it out. He was offended by what Wilde wrote to him and had not realised it was directed toward him.
uuaschbaer
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 5:29:12 PM

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If he was offended by De Profundis I can sort of imagine, it's brutal.
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 7:02:22 PM
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To Percival:

"What I meant Marissa is that the natural bond between parent and offspring in most cases overcomes the adverse judgment toward them and one forgives... especially as one makes ones own mistakes. My own feeling is that it is not my function to judge my parent and a sense of my own failings as a person strengthen that."

Yes. I very much agree with you.
floyd
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 10:04:40 PM
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Tootsie and RubyMoon --

Who would have thought I would find something like this, where people's posts actually touch my heart.

It's interesting how sometimes the quote just hits my heart (and mind). Other times, it hits lightly, more of a tease, not really hitting until we get the context. Either way, starting with a good short quote does work it's magic.

You're right, Tootsie, you all seem very easy to like. Is there anyone who can't embrace that?

Thank you,

floyd
leonAzul
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2011 10:15:06 PM

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Daemon wrote:
Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them.

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)


For what it is worth, here are my thoughts on this quote.

Only experienced and mature adults are capable of forgiveness when emotionally clouded judgment results from their disappointment in the blind faith unfounded by reality that they held as children.
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 5:08:56 AM

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I understand what you say Floyd. I rediscovered my mother when she was 86 in an old folks home... she let us children go and it took me years to understand.

I wrote this poem as a release and in an effort to find a peace.



ON HEARING OF THE DEATH OF MY MOTHER.(MUM)

APRIL 3rd MONDAY 8. 30AM 2002




The telephone rang at half-past eight this morning
The caller left a message on my machine
I spotted the flashing light, giving me warning
Getting me ready to hear the worst, I mean
‘Mum died at eight o’clock this morning’ the caller said
Finding it difficult to express truth in suitable ways
‘Died in her sleep’ she said ‘Peacefully, on a hospital bed.

I played the message yet again and again
Wanting and hoping it would move me to tears
But all it did as I knew it would was awaken the pain,
The pain of the hollow and empty years
Yet this was the woman who carried my form
Who provided me then with all my means
Who nurtured my being from early dawn
The woman who gave me half my genes.

I went to see her just two months ago
Went to see her in an old folk’s home
Took her out for a meal you know
Then I went home leaving her all alone
I sensed her hurt that she’d caused such pain
And her inability, now, to put it right
With life, once vigorous, now on the wane
Sadly no longer having the strength or the might


Bent and battered on the forge of life
Released, unwillingly, from daily grinds
Trouble, wearied with trial and strife
The coil of life now unwinds
Too late now to seek the past
To find, to understand, to know
Too late, now she has breathed her last
To see what deepest thoughts would show.

What shaped her, what hidden feelings were there to find
Trapped then within an ageing shell
As she, with time explored the memory mind
I wonder, what were her thoughts but who can tell
What deep regrets resided in her soul
What wishes to reshape her life like molded clay
But now lies still the golden bowl,
Its hopes, its yearnings succumbed to bitter day.

I felt for her, although I knew her not
I will not at her door, lay the blame
The hurt, the pain should be forgot
And honour afforded to her name
But oh that I could mourn in the normal sense
But the loss I grieve is that I cannot feel
Because the memories of mothering are a mere pretense
And I see no way for my wounds to heal.

TIME HAS PASSED SINCE I WROTE THIS POEM, AND I HAVE THOUGHT OF MUM A LOT. WE ALL DO SILLY THINGS IN OUR LIVES AND SOMETIMES WE ARE DRIVEN BY EVENTS. I LOVE HER... SHE HAD A DIFFICULT LIFE FULL OF SADNESS, AND COVERED UP A LOT. SHE WAS A DEEP THINKER… AND INTELLIGENT. I AM GLAD SHE WAS MY MUM AS SHE GAVE ME THINGS WITHIN MY MAKEUP THAT COUNTERED THOSE OF MY FATHER.. I HAVE NO BAD FEELINGS TOWARD HER MEMORY… JUST A DEEP SADNESS THAT NOW IT IS TOO LATE TO FIND THE ANSWER TO MANY QUESTIONS. I BELIEVE MY FATHER TREATED MY MOTHER VERY BADLY INDEED AND SHE WAS HURT… GOING ON THE DEFENSIVE TO PROTECT HERSELF.

.
kitten
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:31:12 AM

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What I do love about this site is that it gives us a chance to express ourselves. I am glad these quotes in or out of context touch so many in different ways.

I shall now give my opinion on how I view this quote. I have yet to read the whole play to see it in its true light.

I belive Lord Illingworth was worthless, a cad, coward, manipulator and he was bullying the mother of his child. He shirked his duty when he didn't marry her and make an honest woman of her when she was with child even though his father had asked him to do so. He instead had his mother try to buy her off for six hundred pounds a year, granted a large sum in those days.

He sites as one of his excuses 'his youth of twenty-two years' which in those days wasn't that young. He disrespects his fathers wishes, and he uses his mother as he found comfort in her and she had probably covered for him in the past. And whilst he found comfort in his own mother he is now bullying the mother of his child by telling her that the shame she lived with is of no importance. He has dismissed her past and the hard row she as a woman had to hoe as an unwed mother.

He instead pushes her feelings aside, yet again, and believes that his son Gerald's future is more important than the shame she has lived with. He is a cad and a poor excuse for a man.

He won't tell his son who he is but he will use, once again, his money to tempt the young, this time his son not the mother.

Gerald's mother tells Lord "Ill-n-worth" that her son has been the love of her life for twenty years and he uses this love against her with the threat of the son judging her poorly and not forgiving her when it was he who was really the cur and cad to begin with and he is just as culpable but he lays the all the guilt at her feet.

She may have been pregnant but she did have pride and wasn't a whore who could be bought off. I don't think this sat well with him and I also don't think he gave either of them much thought until the accidental crossing of paths.

He is a useless silver tongued viper and a blackmailer of feelings, that no one needs around.

This is, of course, is just my opinion.


peace out, >^,,^<
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 7:10:23 AM

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The thing about Wilde's quote, which forms tha basis of this thread, is that it is not meant to be put back in the context of his play which was a work of fiction. It is a stand alone view for discussion, that he likely held, since when we write we often express our true feelings in a works of fiction... we write from our pool of experience.
Joseph Glantz
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 7:50:10 AM
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Fortunately I never thought I had anything to forgive my parents for. They were wonderful!
percivalpecksniff
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 7:58:36 AM

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That's good for you Joseph, and for your parents, but sadly it is not so for all folk as you acknowledge by your use of the word fortunate. Even for those who feel they were hard done by there is nearly always a positive in their upbringing.
tootsie
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:08:11 AM

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to PH, floyd , kitten and Rubymoon, thank you for your posts. Seeing things from "both sides now" is a real eye-opener, keep posting, please. I really embrace your thoughts.
tootsie
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:15:58 AM

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sorry, forgot to say PH that your poem is phenomenal and worth many reads
kitten
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:22:59 AM

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percivalpecksniff wrote:
The thing about Wilde's quote, which forms tha basis of this thread, is that it is not meant to be put back in the context of his play which was a work of fiction. It is a stand alone view for discussion, that he likely held, since when we write we often express our true feelings in a works of fiction... we write from our pool of experience.



That is your opinion with respects to the above quote. It can and does stand alone each to his or her own experience. If you choose to share your thoughts on the quote as it stands that is your right and it is also only your personal opinion when you include his wife, his children, and sexuality. It may be factual but it also adding information not needed.

I prefer to read the quote(s) in context as that is my way. And on that note I choose to read this quote in the context of his play and understood it in my own way. I also commented very early on with a "'Tis True." But that was not enough for me so off I went to find it sourced and in context. That is just me.

Since I did not live in his time period and I did not know him personally I do not nor can I say with such certainty the views he likely held with respects to anything. Nor do I immediately think of Mrs. Wilde, his children or his sexuality when I read his works.

What I do know from reading some of Mr. Wilde's work is that there is much hidden in his work. It isn't to be lightly skimmed. The choice of names and places and topics seem to have a meaning, or so I was taught. Some may be just observations as he was said to do that and the story could be a series of observations and not necessarily a personal life experience. And other writers do this as well.

I do not know how people write but it is said it is best to write about what you know. Also, I don't know if the author or authoress is expressing their true feelings in works of fiction, poetry or whatever. Sometimes they may express what will sell best.

Your way for you, my way for me. Okay? Thank you.


peace out, >^,,^<
excaelis
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 5:05:20 PM

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All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That’s his.

The Importance Of Being Earnest, I.I.
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Sunday, October 2, 2011 9:19:50 PM
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"Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them."

I think Oscar Wild was thinking of how his own children would one day judge him, and of the unforgivingness they would feel towards him when he wrote these lines.
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