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FounDit
Posted: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:42:05 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,743
Neurons: 65,653
Epi,

I came across this and thought you might like it, too. I wish I could have a conversation with the author. I think that would be very interesting and enjoyable. So many ideas occurred to me as I was reading it.


Mindfulness is Loaded With Troubling Assumptions
8BooksOfSengathe
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2020 6:40:57 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/30/2014
Posts: 511
Neurons: 15,967
FounDit wrote:
Epi,

I came across this and thought you might like it, too. I wish I could have a conversation with the author. I think that would be very interesting and enjoyable. So many ideas occurred to me as I was reading it.


Mindfulness is Loaded With Troubling Assumptions


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Mindfulness Meditation vs Romans 8

[ The link is a Norton & McAfee secured site. ]

https://biblepagesbyperidotpath.blogspot.com/2019/09/mindfulness-meditation-vs-romans-8.html
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Romany
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:34:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 17,092
Neurons: 54,729
Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom

I also wrote a paper on Mindfulness a couple of years ago, because I was dismayed at how "mindfulness" has become the treatment du jour, and people are encouraged to take part in it "training" regardless of their needs, mental state, or personality.

I was forced to enroll in a Mindfulness programme as an entry to psychiatric support. I questioned WHY? Like the author of this article, I've had training in many different kinds of philosophy, and the precepts of Mindfulness are present in most. But the main reason I was against being made to take part is that I'm bi-polar. Why should a bi-polar person who lives their whole life with intensely heightened feelings and emotions have to go into a group of diverse, unknown people and eat bloody raisins?

It was a disaster, brought on panic attacks, and drove me into a pit of suicidal depression within 4 weeks. Have since spoken with other people who have actual mental conditions, and all tell the same tale.

To me, it might be a valuable tool for those who have never entered the world of awareness - but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution to the way to get through life. It's become a "fashion", "trendy", a "must-have"; and practitioners and guides don't all come with knowledge of the psyche, or comprehensive study of mental illness and are ignorant of the effects it can have on people with existing conditions.

So my opinion of it is rather "Bah humbug!" It's become one of those "in" treatments like colonic irrigation - fine for those who choose to do it. But with possible dangers when people are encouraged to use it across the board - whether it will benefit them or not.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, January 2, 2020 12:24:50 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,743
Neurons: 65,653
Romany wrote:

I also wrote a paper on Mindfulness a couple of years ago, because I was dismayed at how "mindfulness" has become the treatment du jour, and people are encouraged to take part in it "training" regardless of their needs, mental state, or personality.
It's interesting to me that when I first came across "mindfulness", I thought, "I've been doing this for years but didn't have a name for it". I simply found it a pleasant and successful way to examine my thinking and for trying to understand why I has some of the thought patterns I had.

It was a way to examine what I had simply accepted as true without question, and then to examine those things to see if I could find truth in them. If not, then ask what was the truth, and see if I could ascertain it.

I was forced to enroll in a Mindfulness programme as an entry to psychiatric support. I questioned WHY? Like the author of this article, I've had training in many different kinds of philosophy, and the precepts of Mindfulness are present in most. But the main reason I was against being made to take part is that I'm bi-polar. Why should a bi-polar person who lives their whole life with intensely heightened feelings and emotions have to go into a group of diverse, unknown people and eat bloody raisins?
That really doesn't sound like a good idea to me, either. I would think a single one-on-one would be more productive for a bi-polar person, but I'm no expert on it, so that's just a first thought I have on that.

It was a disaster, brought on panic attacks, and drove me into a pit of suicidal depression within 4 weeks. Have since spoken with other people who have actual mental conditions, and all tell the same tale.
It does seem strange to me that people with mental conditions wouldn't first be helped with the condition before practicing "mindfulness". It seems counter-intuitive to me to have someone practice "mindfulness" when they aren't capable of it.

To me, it might be a valuable tool for those who have never entered the world of awareness - but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution to the way to get through life. It's become a "fashion", "trendy", a "must-have"; and practitioners and guides don't all come with knowledge of the psyche, or comprehensive study of mental illness and are ignorant of the effects it can have on people with existing conditions.
I think you are probably right about that.

So my opinion of it is rather "Bah humbug!" It's become one of those "in" treatments like colonic irrigation - fine for those who choose to do it. But with possible dangers when people are encouraged to use it across the board - whether it will benefit them or not.
I found my way of doing it was helpful in dealing with my PTSD and anger issues on my return from combat, but I didn't learn how to do it until about fifteen years after my return. I would "bottle" my anger and it would make me withdraw from those around me because one episode of losing my temper frightened even me, and I vowed not to let it happen again. Mindful thinking made that possible to a very great extent.

But my mindfulness wasn't related to Buddhism, and especially not to the idea of anattā (the no-self doctrine). Just the opposite. I felt a strong belief in a sense of sense was critical to forming a foundation upon which to stand, and from which to observe and act. Mindfulness was useful in paring away all that was untrue, leaving as much as possible, what was "truth" as I saw it.

At any rate, I thought it was an interesting article, and wondered what others thought of it. Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry it didn't work for you. But we all have different paths to take in life's journey.

FounDit
Posted: Friday, January 10, 2020 11:15:54 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,743
Neurons: 65,653
I came across another article on Mindfulness that I thought to share. I was disappointed to see the author only spent eight weeks practicing mindfulness and thought this was enough to evaluate it. Eight weeks?!

To benefit from it, I think it takes much, much longer than eight weeks. Also, he seemed to think it is something to use to accomplish a goal; like using a hammer to drive a nail. No, mindfulness is the tool that teaches you, if you permit it to do so. He seems to have his aims reversed. Anyway, I thought some of you might find it interesting. He did learn some things even while making some mistakes in his thinking.

One Skeptical Scientist’s Mindfulness Journey
Epiphileon
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 3:25:07 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/2009
Posts: 4,270
Neurons: 166,011
FounDit wrote:
Epi,

I came across this and thought you might like it, too. I wish I could have a conversation with the author. I think that would be very interesting and enjoyable. So many ideas occurred to me as I was reading it.


Mindfulness is Loaded With Troubling Assumptions


Sorry it has taken a while for me to reply, I did read the article... DAMN, and sanctified fecal matter!! Now I know why I thought I'd read the article before! I thought this was just posted concurrently with Romany's comment, and just saw it was actually 6 months ago. Well defecation, sorry FounDit I definitely appreciate the heads up and do have opinions on what the author said as well as the practice in general.

Quote:
First I agree overall with the author regarding the issue but specifically this statement;
In claiming to offer a multipurpose, multi-user remedy for all occasions, mindfulness oversimplifies the difficult business of understanding oneself. It fits oh-so-neatly into a culture of techno-fixes, easy answers and self-hacks, where we can all just tinker with the contents of our heads to solve problems, instead of probing why we’re so dissatisfied with our lives in the first place.


My own opinion about mindfulness is that it could be a useful tool in a persons attempt to bring themselves up from being basically a reactionary automaton guided by a lifetime of maladaptive strategies and biased thinking. That state of the individual is a result of misinformation on the nature of modern homo-sapien and the machinations of a cultural environment that has been formed strictly by coevolutionary processes that are no longer adaptive in the modern world.

If I were able to start a movement akin to the type that mindfulness represents, I don't know what I'd call it, consciousnessness is just too much of a phonetic nightmare. But it would be based on an empirical understanding of the nature of mind, and the implications of the evolutionary paradigm for every aspect of life as a Homo sapiens, from the operation of the individual mind to the dynamics of cultures and civilization as a whole.

My fear is that we have passed the cusp point at which this could have become known by the majority and that an elite minority have learned the mechanics of social manipulation far too well for there to be any hope for the enlightenment of the species and that we are being led by the nose to a dystopian future.
FounDit
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2020 11:20:44 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,743
Neurons: 65,653
Epiphileon wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Epi,

I came across this and thought you might like it, too. I wish I could have a conversation with the author. I think that would be very interesting and enjoyable. So many ideas occurred to me as I was reading it.


Mindfulness is Loaded With Troubling Assumptions


Sorry it has taken a while for me to reply, I did read the article... DAMN, and sanctified fecal matter!! Now I know why I thought I'd read the article before! I thought this was just posted concurrently with Romany's comment, and just saw it was actually 6 months ago. Well defecation, sorry FounDit I definitely appreciate the heads up and do have opinions on what the author said as well as the practice in general.

Quote:
First I agree overall with the author regarding the issue but specifically this statement;
In claiming to offer a multipurpose, multi-user remedy for all occasions, mindfulness oversimplifies the difficult business of understanding oneself. It fits oh-so-neatly into a culture of techno-fixes, easy answers and self-hacks, where we can all just tinker with the contents of our heads to solve problems, instead of probing why we’re so dissatisfied with our lives in the first place.


My own opinion about mindfulness is that it could be a useful tool in a persons attempt to bring themselves up from being basically a reactionary automaton guided by a lifetime of maladaptive strategies and biased thinking. That state of the individual is a result of misinformation on the nature of modern homo-sapien and the machinations of a cultural environment that has been formed strictly by coevolutionary processes that are no longer adaptive in the modern world.

If I were able to start a movement akin to the type that mindfulness represents, I don't know what I'd call it, consciousnessness is just too much of a phonetic nightmare. But it would be based on an empirical understanding of the nature of mind, and the implications of the evolutionary paradigm for every aspect of life as a Homo sapiens, from the operation of the individual mind to the dynamics of cultures and civilization as a whole.

My fear is that we have passed the cusp point at which this could have become known by the majority and that an elite minority have learned the mechanics of social manipulation far too well for there to be any hope for the enlightenment of the species and that we are being led by the nose to a dystopian future.

Unfortunately for the species, I think you are correct. My hope is that the few souls who do make the effort to improve will continue to act as leavening for the whole loaf. That's probably the only thing holding the house of cards together. Significantly, each generation seems to produce a number of those kinds of people.
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