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Helenej
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 9:46:33 AM

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Why does Peppa Pig say "My friends have took Teddy" instead of "My friends have taken Teddy" at 1:04 in

Peppa Pig
papo_308
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 10:08:00 AM
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I think it's simply because Peppa Pig is still a little pig and doesn't know the correct verb forms yet.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 10:09:18 AM

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Because she speaks 'Pig' and not English. Whistle Whistle
Helenej
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 11:37:12 AM

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So, in this case Peppa makes a mistake like small children sometimes do.
Thank you, papo and Drag0!
thar
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 12:40:07 PM

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You might also have caught that Peppa cannot quite say her 'th'es yet - hence a transitional 'toofbrush', 'wiv' and 'Norf'.

Dropping her aitches is probably more generational!

Whistle


So it is less of a 'copy me' and more of an 'I am like you'.
Helenej
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 2:59:40 PM

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thar wrote:
You might also have caught that Peppa cannot quite say her 'th'es yet - hence a transitional 'toofbrush', 'wiv' and 'Norf'.

Sadly, I hadn't until you mentioned that. Th and f sound very similar. Thank you, thar.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:45:37 AM

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Helenej wrote:
Th and f sound very similar. Thank you, thar.

It depends from where one comes.
To me they're quite different, but there are sounds in other languages which I have trouble differentiating.

There are areas/dialects of England in which "th" (Ɵ) is pronounced as a definite 'f'. I associate it with the East End of London, though I believe it happens in the Essex and Estuary dialects too (these are all from the same south-eastern (sarf-eastern) corner of England).
thar
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 4:55:51 AM

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Yes, Paris has la Rive Gauche et la Rive Droite.
(OK, these are areas around the river, not how Paris is defined, I think?)


Lunnon 'as norf o'river an' sarf o'river.



[image not available]


Helenej
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:02:38 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Helenej wrote:
Th and f sound very similar.

It depends from where one comes.

They probably sound very similar to all people whose languages don’t have the Ɵ sound. I wonder if there are other languages where you have to stick out your tongue. (Can’t get rid of the feeling that Ɵ is kind of an indecent sound.Angel )
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:05:14 AM

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That's odd - I don't stick my tongue out when I'm saying Ɵ . . .

You've probably been listening to (and watching) too many "elocution experts" on you-tube, instead of real people.

This is what a Ɵ looks like when I say it (except I'm not quite so good looking as she is)



[image not available]


If you stick your tongue out, you're doing it wrong. (even the first one is a bit exaggerated. The tongue stays completely behind the teeth.)



Helenej
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:09:41 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
That's odd - I don't stick my tongue out when I'm saying Ɵ . . .

Yes, you do. Otherwise it's not Ɵ.Angel
th sound

Okay, not the whole tongue, only its tip, but that doesn't change my feeling about the sound.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 7:35:46 AM

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Helenej wrote:
Yes, you do. Otherwise it's not Ɵ.Angel


'Fraid not. I've never seen a real person open their mouth wide like Rachel does - and I've never seen anyone more than three years old stick their tongue out while saying "th".

Absolutely NONE of my tongue goes in front of the teeth. The tip of the tongue touches the back of the front teeth and the back of the top gums.

I can quite understand your feeling about the sound - some British people have the same ideas/feelings about some sounds used in other languages.

Helenej
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 8:05:10 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
Absolutely NONE of my tongue goes in front of the teeth.

That's even worse. In that case people can see the whole bottom part of your tongue. Nooooo!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 8:28:46 AM

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Helenej wrote:
That's even worse. In that case people can see the whole bottom part of your tongue. Nooooo!

No - look at that picture (above) of the woman saying "through" - you can see a tiny bit of her teeth. None of her tongue at all.

No-one in real life speaks anything like these 'elocution experts' on you-tube.
As I said - even the first picture of the little kid is exaggerated - the tongue touches the back of the teeth, doesn't stick out at all. It is never seen in normal conversation with normal people. The mouth opens only the same amount when you say "glue", "through", "true", "look", "tan", "than", "tin", "thin", "gin", "sin".

"A" and "e" show much more tongue than "th" does.
Helenej
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 8:52:41 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
look at that picture (above) of the woman saying "through" - you can see a tiny bit of her teeth. None of her tongue at all.

The th sound is reduced in this case because it is followed by the consonant r, which requires an instant withdrawal of the tongue back to the roof of the mouth. Consider cases when th is followed by a vowel: thank, that, theory.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 12:33:21 PM

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Yes - I've just stood in front of a mirror and said "Thank that theory in this." At no time did my tongue appear. It stayed behind my teeth, just touching the upper teeth when "th" was pronounced.



[image not available]


The teeth are almost together. The tongue just touches the back of the upper teeth, where they meet the gums.
Helenej
Posted: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:22:35 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:


[image not available]


The description is lame. It doesn't say which part of the upper front teeth the tip of the tongue touches. It touches the edge of the teeth! You can make sure of that if you slow down the following video using that gear-wheel-looking icon at the bottom.

Thank you.

BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 3:24:53 AM
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It is possible to pronounce the dental fricatives with the tongue protruding through the teeth. Indeed, some teachers of English recommend that their learners do this if the learners find it difficult to produce them.

However, Drag0 is absolutely right:

... the tip and rims of the tongue make a light contact with the edge and inner surface [emphasis added by me added - Bob] of the upper incisors and a firmer contact with the upper side teeth.
Cruttenden, Alan (2001.183-4), Gimson's Pronunciation of English. London: Arnold.

... the tongue is normally place inside [emphasis in the original] the teeth [...] with the tip touching the inside of the lower front teeth and the blade touching the inside of the upper teeth
. Roach, Peter (1991.49), English Phonetics and Phonology. Cambridge: CUP

Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 4:34:40 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
... the tip and rims of the tongue make a light contact with the edge and inner surface [emphasis added by me added - Bob] of the upper incisors and a firmer contact with the upper side teeth. Cruttenden, Alan (2001.183-4), Gimson's Pronunciation of English. London: Arnold.

If the tip of the tongue makes a contact with the edge of the upper incisors, it means that the tip of the tongue sticks out between the teeth.
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 5:13:36 AM
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The tip of the tongue may well be visible, but it does NOT stick out for most native speakers of BrE.

Drag0nspeaker, a native speaker, has told you this. I, a native speaker (with the International Phonetic Association Certificate of Proficiency in the Phonetics of English), have told you this. Peter Roach, former Professor of Phonetics at the University of reading has told you this. Alan Cruttenden, formerly professor of Phonetics at the University of Manchester, has told you this.

What makes you feel you know better?
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 5:37:10 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
What makes you feel you know better?

Common sense. If the tip of the tongue touches the edge of the teeth, it can only be further out of the mouth than the edge of the teeth. Anyone can touch the edge of the teeth with their tongue and feel with their finger which is further out, their teeth or the tip of their tongue.

Actually, Alan Cruttenden doesn't say that the tip of the tongue doesn't stick out, does he?

Prince William

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 5:47:00 AM

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Thank you Bob.

The frustrating bit is that most videos of "elocution experts" saying "th" do show someone sticking their tongue out, which must be most misleading for people who do not use the "th" in their own language.

That last image I posted is one of the few 'phonetic' advices which actually shows that the tongue touches the BACK of the front teeth, and does not stick out.

Quote:
Helenj The description is lame. It doesn't say which part of the upper front teeth the tip of the tongue touches.

The picture shows it - the tongue is behind the upper teeth, the tip of the tongue just reaches the edge of the teeth, the tongue does not overlap the end of the teeth. It doesn't stick out, or become particularly visible at all.

That Canadian guy saying "Thank you" is speaking as no British person (and no Canadian) would speak in normal life. I think the same is true of most USA Americans, too.
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 6:42:21 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
That Canadian guy saying "Thank you" is speaking as no British person (and no Canadian) would speak in normal life. I think the same is true of most USA Americans, too.

Does Prince William speak as a British person in normal life?

Prince William

I can clearly see the tip of his tongue between his teeth. Just enlarge the screen and slow down the video.
Pandion haliaetus
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 7:17:08 AM

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Well, if I may put forward a slice of some curious sibilant phonetics, there's just a couple of lines to be quoted (A 16-year-old Eva attached to her Mother at the doctor's):

"'I mean take all her clothes off her chest. Otherwise I shall not be able to make a diagnosis, we won't be able to start treatment, Eva will get worse, and you won't get any sleep.'

Eva said nothing as her mother peeled away several layers of cardigans, blouses, and vests. At last her chest was exposed. I laid my stethoscope over the heart, winked at her pleasantly, and said with a smile, 'Big breaths.'

A look of interest at last illuminated the child's face. She glanced at me and grinned. 'Yeth,' she said proudly, 'and I'm only thixteen.'"
(Richard Gordon, Doctor at Large, 1961).
Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 7:43:34 AM
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When I pronounce 'th', my tongue touches the lower part of the back of my teeth and their bottom edge. (It does not touch the gums, unless it is preceded by a 't' or 'd' sound, e.g. "God the Father".) The tip of my tongue is vertically level with my teeth.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:06:20 AM

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Helenej wrote:
Does Prince William speak as a British person in normal life?

No - he speaks a dialect which is spoken by less than two percent of British people.
Also, this video is not "normal life" - it is an interview - he is speaking very slowly and deliberately, so that he can be understood by all.
Even so, he is not "sticking out his tongue" - which is how you originally described it.
His tongue becomes slightly visible at normal speed and magnification - and (quote) "I can clearly see the tip of his tongue between his teeth. Just enlarge the screen and slow down the video."

Watch the other guy (the interviewer).
Occasionally you see his teeth. VERY occasionally, his tongue becomes slightly visible when he says "ay" or "ee" - not when he says "th".

This is more like normal British speech (though it is still in a very minority dialect).
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:27:40 AM
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Helenej wrote:
BobShilling wrote:
What makes you feel you know better?

Common sense.


I apologise. I should have realised that your commnon sense outweighs the opinions of native speakers and highly trained professors of phonetics.
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:49:27 AM
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The frustrating bit is that most videos of "elocution experts" saying "th" do show someone sticking their tongue out, which must be most misleading for people who do not use the "th" in their own language.

I have done it myself in demonstration.

The problem with this sound is that:


This sound and its unvoiced counterpart are rare phonemes. Almost all languages of Europe and Asia, such as German, French, Persian, Japanese, and Mandarin, lack the sound. Native speakers of languages without the sound often have difficulty enunciating or distinguishing it, and they replace it with a voiced alveolar sibilant [z], a voiced dental stop or voiced alveolar stop [d], or a voiced labiodental fricative [v]; known respectively as th-alveolarization, th-stopping, and th-fronting. As for Europe, there seems to be a great arc where the sound (and/or its unvoiced variant) is present. Most of Mainland Europe lacks the sound. However, some "periphery" languages as Gascon, Welsh, English, Elfdalian, Northern Sami, Mari, Greek, Albanian, Sardinian, some dialects of Basque and most speakers of Spanish have the sound in their consonant inventories, as phonemes or allophones.

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative.html

If the learner really cannot produce the sound correctly, I have demonstrated it with my tongue protruding, and then got learners to copy. This enables them to hear and feel a sound that is effectively identical. I have then got them to retract their tongue until it is in the natural position, and most have then been able to produce it. Unfortunately, some teachers and elocutionists stop after the first stage, leading their learners to believe that the tongue should protrude.
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:51:25 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
I should have realised that your commnon sense outweighs the opinions of native speakers and highly trained professors of phonetics.

My common sense is the same as the professor’s. He says that you touch the edge of your teeth with the tip of your tongue and that can only mean that the tip of your tongue is between your teeth and sticks out. I only wish the opinion of all native speakers coincided with the professor’s.
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 8:58:38 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
this video is not "normal life" - it is an interview - he is speaking very slowly and deliberately, so that he can be understood by all.

Prince William speaks slowly because he is thinking while speaking, not because he wants to be understood. Also, his speaking slowly means pausing between words, saying all those um, er, eh, rather than pronouncing slowly the words themselves.

Anyway, I see your point. According to you, anyone who we can see on the Internet and whose speech can be considered the proof would speak slowly and would ennunciate their th's "so that to be understood": politicians, interviewers and interviewees, actors, singers, teachers of English, weather people and so on. The only proof is you and other people that are not on the Internet.Angel
BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 9:31:37 AM
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Helenej wrote:

My common sense is the same as the professor’s. He says that you touch the edge of your teeth with the tip of your tongue and that can only mean that the tip of your tongue is between your teeth and sticks out.


If your teeth are like those of most humans, your lower front teeth will be slightly behind the upper front teeth.

When most speakers of BrE produce the sound we are talking about, the tongue extends beyond the lower front teeth to touch the back and edge of the upper front teeth (which are still forward of the lower teeth). As both sets of teeth are touching the tongue, the tongue is indeed between the teeth. It can and may extend beyond the upper front teeth for some speakers and/or in some situations, but it does not do so for most of us in most situations.
Helenej
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 9:55:45 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
It can and may extend beyond the upper front teeth for some speakers and/or in some situations

Ooh, that’s already something.

BobShilling wrote:
but it does not do so for most of us in most situations.

Has it ever occured to you to write to the respected professor that you cited and ask him to correct his explanation? If the tongue, including its tip, is beyond the upper front teeth, as you say, then it doesn’t make a contact with the edge, as the professor says.

BobShilling
Posted: Saturday, June 30, 2018 10:27:21 AM
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Helenej wrote:

Has it ever occured to you to write to the respected professor that you cited and ask him to correct his explanation? If the tongue, including its tip, is beyond the upper front teeth, as you say, then it doesn’t make a contact with the edge, as the professor says.

Cruttenden, like me, was talking about the normal articulation of the sound in British English. He says elsewhere on the page "With some speakers, the tongue tip may protrude between the teeth; this is a common type of articulation in American English".
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