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Pronunciation of jagged, lagged, legged, logged, ... Options
Merryweather123
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 9:59:24 AM
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Is there a rule concerning the pronunciation of the -ed ending after a final g ?

From what I gather, adjectives formed after a noun are pronounced [id]: legged, jagged, ragged

And simple past & past participles are pronounced [d]: logged, tagged, jogged

Is that correct ?
thar
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:12:54 AM

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well, I am not sure if the rule applies to everything (there are always exceptions) but here, the -d are adjectives, and the gd are verbs

eg
he is a one legged (leg-ed) man, but he could still run fast, so he legged (legd) it and ran away

it was a ragged (rag-ed) edge so we ragged (ragd) him about it.

otherwise, the other adjectives I can think of are -ed
ragged, dogged, learned

and the verbs with gd, nd
learned, (learnt) dogged, ragged etc

but I am sure you will be able to find exceptions, probably from different roots that has just been slipped in. These words are of Germanic origin. Others (of Latin, French, English origin) might not follow the same system
Romany
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:52:04 AM
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Thar - I'm curious. (Permanent state)

I think English is your second language, yes? If so, or indeed if it is your fourth or fifth language, I want to ask about the rythm?

If you are reading any of the above words, in context, do you insert the correct one in your mind because a) you know empirically its correct or b)you know inuitively that it's correct i.e. you choose the one that carries on the correct rythm?
Julya
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:56:54 AM
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use the google or other translator, where there is mike . It is easier way to learn the pronunciation.
thar
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:02:54 PM

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Romany wrote:
Thar - I'm curious. (Permanent state)

I think English is your second language, yes? If so, or indeed if it is your fourth or fifth language, I want to ask about the rythm?

If you are reading any of the above words, in context, do you insert the correct one in your mind because a) you know empirically its correct or b)you know inuitively that it's correct i.e. you choose the one that carries on the correct rythm?


@Romany - I picked up English naturally growing up (parents fluent, lots of English books and films and visitors, no TV and older siblings trying to be smart!) so I go by feel, intuition, rhythm, association and experience, I think.

I have immense respect for anyone trying to learn English by applying rules - it is so irregular, illogical and inconsistent, and the pronounciation is an complete explosion! I do think knowing Icelandic, German, French and some basic Latin may help subconciously to apply different rules to words in English that come from different roots, so you do not apply rules too broadly. But that is just a thought. It is more likely that I am just intrigued, so when I hear words and phrases I like they stick!

Every time there is a question on here, I give an answer by feel, and then wonder why the heck it is that way!

English must be one of the few languages in the world (edit - with allegedly phonetic script), where a well educated native speaker could be given a word, and if they have not heard it before (or out of context), would quite probably pronounce it wrongly!
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 1:51:15 PM

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Julya,
that thingy is called loudspeaker, not microphone ;-)
MrH
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 8:48:41 PM
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Joined: 6/25/2011
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Location: United States
Hearing words end with a 't' sound when they should not makes me want to (puke).


http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst17737_Triple-what-.aspx


By the way, could anyone explain how to turn a word into an <href> type of link

while posting in these forums?


Romany
Posted: Sunday, August 14, 2011 10:57:08 PM
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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Thar, thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I guess if you were brought up immersed in the language - and learned it by ear - the rythm would be part of the learning process just as it is for any native speaker.

I agree with you about the difficulty non-native speakers face, but after some years now spent teaching, I'm coming to the conclusion that this whole question of stress and rythm is absolutely key; yet seems to be the most neglected side of second-language teaching.

My question to you was sparked because of giving that old tongue twister "Around the rugged rocks, the ragged rascal ran" to a couple of classes. Although I explained, each time, how "rugged" was pronounced, not one student, in any class, made the connection to pronounce "ragged" in the same way.

As your level of English is native-speaker level, I thought I'd ask you but, if you learned by ear rather than eye, then that doesn't, unfortunately, advance me much in the theory I'm currently working on.
thar
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 2:26:49 AM

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Sorry, Romany, I am no help there! You are right about rhythm - hence all the children's rhymes, phrases, sayings, and idioms, maybe, as people naturally learn language and make subconscious rules.

Maybe the fact that 'the ragged rascal ran' exists, is precisely because it is needed to learn that small, rare set of words. Then you go out in the world and put them to use. Although that theory does break down knowing that generations learnt it happily before the tongue-twister came into existence. But it could explain its survival, because the words sound odd, so they are fun to say, and by saying them the brain is broken in and trained to use that rhythm.

So much in English you have to learn by association because there are so many pockets of exceptions. But ragged/jagged/dogged is probably on of the more rule-abiding ones. If the adjective is not -ing (sagging, bagging) then it is -ged (ragged, dogged) - I think that is the association I make. But everyone is different!
leonAzul
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:37:01 AM

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Location: Miami, Florida, United States
thar wrote:
well, I am not sure if the rule applies to everything (there are always exceptions) but here, the -d are adjectives, and the gd are verbs

eg
he is a one legged (leg-ed) man, but he could still run fast, so he legged (legd) it and ran away

it was a ragged (rag-ed) edge so we ragged (ragd) him about it.

otherwise, the other adjectives I can think of are -ed
ragged, dogged, learned

and the verbs with gd, nd
learned, (learnt) dogged, ragged etc

but I am sure you will be able to find exceptions, probably from different roots that has just been slipped in. These words are of Germanic origin. Others (of Latin, French, English origin) might not follow the same system


Good question, and a good answer.

I just wanted to add that you, Merryweather123, are in good company. On another forum where I participate in a poetry game, the very person who started that thread -- a native speaker of English and college-educated -- asked me the same question, and after a bit of thought, we came to the same conclusion as thar. It is a pattern that has few exceptions yet one enforced by no obvious rule beyond its utility.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, August 15, 2011 5:10:38 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 43,335
Neurons: 612,436
Location: Helsinki, Southern Finland Province, Finland
MrH wrote:
Hearing words end with a 't' sound when they should not makes me want to (puke).


http://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst17737_Triple-what-.aspx


By the way, could anyone explain how to turn a word into an <href> type of link

while posting in these forums?




The easiest way is to select a word before using the Create Link tool, or write some text in the dialogue box after pasting the link address. Quote some post with such a link, like in Games - Song titles thread, to see how it looks.
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