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Morning Star - Yeshua/Satan Options
Sanmayce
Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 1:33:37 PM

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A month ago while watching the podcast of one American chatterbox (as me) I asked in comment section for clarification. Today, a guy answered my question:

KJV -
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Most if not all other English translations mistranslate and create confusion between lucifer and Jesus, as you can see below.
NIV -
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Hisgalus 22:16 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

16 “I, Yehoshua sent My malach (angel) to give solemn eidus (testimony) to you of these things, for the Kehillot. I am the Shoresh (root) and the offspring of Dovid, the Kokhav HaShachar.

How come we have two morning stars? So, who can deoverlap/disoverlap the "overlapping"? What "Kokhav HaShachar" stands for?
Sanmayce
Posted: Thursday, December 14, 2017 1:42:00 PM

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Oh, just realized that the thread name rises another question for disoverlapping - Satan/Lucifer. Many people, myself included, use them interchangeably.
leonAzul
Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 1:43:07 AM

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Sanmayce wrote:
What "Kokhav HaShachar" stands for?


It means "star of the morning", literally.


In both examples Lucifer and Jesus are in turn likened to the morning star, itself usually a good omen.

In the case of Lucifer, the intent is to show how far he had fallen, not to make a permanent identification with the morning star. Indeed, the word "lucifer" itself means "that which brings (bears) light". The name suggests that he was so close to God that he reflected the Divine Light, which he proudly allowed others to worship as if it were his own.

For many centuries the nuances of various evil entities have been simplified into a common arch-enemy, the Devil, who now travels under several aliases. Keep in mind that for over a thousand years, most christians were not able to read the Bible, except for trained priests and bishops, and even if they could they probably couldn't afford one. Their Sunday school consisted of homilies and hymns at services and festivals.
Sanmayce
Posted: Friday, December 15, 2017 2:54:02 PM

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Thanks. Didn't look up this Hebrew or Aramaic phrase, thought that it might be misdefined. It puzzles me how people accept a statement as if there is no question about it. On the other hand, critical thinking often misdirects because bypasses the intuition, so it is overrated, to me. My way is the middle way. In case with this whole good versus bad plot in the Bible I see no middle ground, it is like you should choose one or the other, nah. My view is different, both forces serve a purpose and thus they are allowed. Many people ask why God allows atrocities, I ask also. Of the whole Bible I like only Job, inthere the angel of accusation Satan plays the role of adversary while being servant of God, somehow in NT someone made him all-evil, funny, it is like slandering the "slanderer" which in itself appears ... Satanic. Who knows whether Satan is not a bug-reporter of the creation, or beta-tester or fault-finder or just being head of quality-control.

As for Morning Star, maybe both Lucifer and Yeshua are sons of the Morning, with the twist one becoming corrupted somehow.

Two days ago saw this on quora.com:

Jesus and Satan have an argument as to who is the better programmer. This goes on for a few hours until they come to an agreement to hold a contest with God as the judge. They set themselves before their computers and begin. They type furiously, lines of code streaming up the screen, for several hours straight.

Seconds before the end of the competition, a bolt of lightning strikes, taking out the electricity. Moments later, the power is restored, and God announces that the contest is over. He asks Satan to show his work. Visibly upset, Satan cries and says, “I have nothing. I lost it all when the power went out.”

“Very well,” says God, “let us see if Jesus has fared any better.”

Jesus presses a key, and the screen comes to life in vivid display, the voices of an angelic choir pour forth from the speakers.

Satan is astonished. He stutters, “B-b-but how?! I lost everything, yet Jesus’ program is intact! How did he do it?”

God chuckles, “Everybody knows… Jesus saves.”


Source: http://www.devtopics.com/best-programming-jokes/
dusty
Posted: Wednesday, January 3, 2018 11:28:37 AM

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I always assumed that the Devel. was the abbreviated term Developer
Litvinenko
Posted: Thursday, January 4, 2018 2:22:33 AM
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The contest looks unfair to Satan. The God is a homer.
Sanmayce
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:21:21 PM

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dusty wrote:
I always assumed that the Devel. was the abbreviated term Developer


Got it, another angle, in photography developer/developing is the actual "come forth" agent/process - thus Devil/Devel helps in developing, hee-hee, in all the senses.

>The contest looks unfair to Satan. The God is a homer.

Didn't get it, you meant biased? I find the black out very funny, the contest is "unfair", yes, playing dirty is quite a twist in this joke.
Nelson Cerqueira
Posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2018 10:31:06 PM

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Drool When a dream becomes reality
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, June 28, 2018 7:30:21 AM

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There is a lot more - this etymological base 'light-bringer', 'morning star', 'shining one', 'bringer of the dawn' is known in most old religions.

Hēlēl or a variant of it was an adjective and noun in Hebrew, meaning "light-bringing" or "morning star" or "Venus". In the old translations of the Jewish bible, it is translated as 'Lucifer'.
The religion which mutated into Judaism (from Canaan) had Hēlal or Attar with the same meanings - and the myth of this spirit trying to outshine the others but being banished from their company (as Venus is the brightest star, but never appears during the night with the other stars).

Phosphoros ('shining one', 'morning star') and Lucifer were alternative names for Castor - while his brother Pollux was also known as "Hesperos" - the evening star.

Of course, you will also recognise Ester, Esther, Astra, Astara, Aster, Astarte, Ishtar, Vashti and various other Biblical, Hebrew and Persian names as being related, with the general meaning of "star" and often with an implication of "Venus".

"Lucifer" was not a biblical name of Satan or 'The Devil' - it has been mistakenly used as such in recent times. This is probably just a misunderstanding of the myth of the Fall - one angel 'the morning star, the brightest one' trying to set him/herself up as a god over other angels. This description was not the name Lucifer, but just the description 'lucifer'.

Even in relatively modern Christianity, there are Bishop Lucifer of Sienna and even Saint Lucifer of Cagliari.

It's even more complex in Islam, as Ishtar, the morning star, is a woman who got two male angels drunk and had them tell her the password to pass into heaven. When she arrived, she was changed into the planet Venus.
The angel who 'Fell' was completely separate - he was Shaytan (Satan). Like in the earliest versions of the Hebrew and Christian Old Testament, it was not that Satan tried to be a god or God - just that he refused to consider Man as senior to Angels. He 'refused to bow down to Adam'.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:05:58 AM

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Dragon,
Thank you very much for this enlightening post.
Kirill Vorobyov
Posted: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:43:31 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
just that he refused to consider Man as senior to Angels. He 'refused to bow down to Adam'.


Sounds reasonable. Think

I know next to nothing about religion though.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 8:10:28 AM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:

It's even more complex in Islam, as Ishtar, the morning star, is a woman who got two male angels drunk and had them tell her the password to pass into heaven. When she arrived, she was changed into the planet Venus.

The angel who 'Fell' was completely separate - he was Shaytan (Satan). Like in the earliest versions of the Hebrew and Christian Old Testament, it was not that Satan tried to be a god or God - just that he refused to consider Man as senior to Angels. He 'refused to bow down to Adam'.


Where did you get your source from? There was no such story in Islam.

Parpar1836
Posted: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 5:52:25 PM
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I don't understand the reference to the "Orthodox Jewish Bible." The quotation looks like something that's completely outside of normative Jewish tradition. We have the Jewish Scriptures, Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanakh, an acronym for Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketubim. The Torah is also known as "the Five Books of Moses" or "Pentateuch." Nevi'im refers to the Prophets. Ketubim, meaning "the writings," includes all other books of the Jewish Scriptures, such as the Book of Ruth and Shir Ha-Shirim ("Song of Songs"). But I am quite unfamiliar with the term "Orthodox Jewish Bible," and suspect that it refers to something published by a Christian missionary group.

This may shock some folks, but there are NO prophecies about JC in the Jewish Scriptures (a.k.a. "Old Testament"). Any prophecies that are claimed to foretell JC's First Coming or Second Coming (Isaiah has been mined pretty extensively for this purpose) are invariably wrenched out of context and often mistranslated by Christian apologists. The Jewish interpretation of these passages is quite different from that assigned by Christian tradition.
neapolitandem
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2020 3:20:44 AM
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Planet Venus according to Dendera.
thar
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2020 9:15:42 AM

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I know this is not new, but I was interested to check out what the heck the OJB was. The link directs to Bible Gateway which has many different versions of the Christian Bible. (I find it a useful resource when looking at how word use has changed over time, as you can match exactly the verse in various translations). So it is Christian. Putting in 'Mark 1:1" with the OJB gets you the New Testament.

Quote:
Markos 1:1 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
1 The Beginning of the Besuras HaGeulah (the Good News of Redemption) of Yehoshua, Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach [the] Ben HaElohim.


and I had to check what that was in more standard versions, just to be sure

Quote:

The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. [1]


So I have no idea what that is all about!


Quote:
The Orthodox Jewish Bible, completed by Phillip Goble in 2002, is an English language version that applies Yiddish and Hasidic cultural expressions to the Messianic Bible.

That is what the Bible Gateway says about the version.

OK, but why? I am all for cooperation and understanding between religions, and of course understanding that Christianity grew out of a Jewish base, but it is a different religion. Which is why there is such a disjunct between the Old and New Testaments. Why try to apply Jewish thinking to a set of Christian writings?

Its full title (that or another book written by the same guy, but I am assuming it is the same book, is
The Orthodox Jewish Bible: Tanakh and Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha

Ah, apparently there is a movement - Messianic Judaism.
So if I understand correctly that is the tradition and spirit of the Jewish writings combined with belief in the Messiah of the Christian New Testament.
I can see how that might be attractive. But the downside is that both lots think you are wrong!

Quote:
Messianic Judaism[a] is a modern syncretic[1] religious movement that combines Christianity—most importantly, the belief that Jesus is the Jewish messiah—with elements of Judaism and Jewish tradition.[2][3][4][5] It emerged in the 1960s and 1970s.[6][7][8][9]

Many Messianic Jews believe that Jesus[b] is the Jewish Messiah and "God the Son" (one person of the Trinity), and that the Tanakh[c] and New Testament are the authoritative scriptures.[10][11] Salvation in Messianic Judaism is achieved only through acceptance of Jesus as one's savior,[7][12][13] and Jewish laws or customs which are followed do not contribute to salvation.[12][13] Belief in the messiahship of Jesus, his power to save, and his divinity are considered by Jewish authorities to be the defining distinctions between Christianity and Judaism.[14][15][16] Protestant groups usually accept Messianic Judaism as a form of Protestantism.[17]

Many adherents of Messianic Judaism are ethnically Jewish[18] and argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.[19] Many refer to themselves in Hebrew as maaminim (believers), not converts, and yehudim (Jews), not notzrim (Christians).[20] Jewish organizations and the Supreme Court of Israel have rejected this claim in cases related to the Law of Return, and instead consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity.[14][21]

From 2003 to 2007, the movement grew from 150 Messianic houses of worship in the United States to as many as 438, with over 100 in Israel and more worldwide; congregations are often affiliated with larger Messianic organizations or alliances.[22][23] As of 2012, population estimates for the United States were between 175,000 and 250,000 members, between 10,000 and 20,000 members for Israel, and an estimated total worldwide membership of 350,000.[24] [needs update]


Is this the same as the Jews for Jesus, or is that different?
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