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Michael Moore: "Bin Laden Executed, Not Killed." Options
drew34
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 8:54:00 PM
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I have changed my political spectrum and opinions over the past few months. I am a moderate liberal. I have found out Republicans are greedy and Democrats are spenders. My focus; however, is on Michael Moore. I like Michael Moore because he has a REALLY outspoken opinion on things. I watched part of the interview Moore did with Piers Morgan and I have read his website every day for the past 3 months. He said that Bin Laden deserved a trial; yet, I don't agree with him on this one. He's a mass killer. What's your take on this? Should Bin Laden have received a trial?
memphis jailer
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 8:58:14 PM
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doesn't matter .... tell you the truth hussein didn't need one either .... everyone knew how badly he treated everyone ... bin laden is the same way
Blooper
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 9:46:31 PM
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Yamashita, Mussolini, Göring, Eichmann, Milosevic, Videla, Saddam,...
jcbarros
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:00:30 PM

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It´s not a constitutional right to have a fair trial? Or has the Sixth Amendment of the precious US Constitution been abolished?
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:08:31 PM
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OBL was in a state of war with the USA.
He was a legitimate military target.
He wasn't an American citizen. Our Constitution does not apply to non-citizens, unless they are on American soil.

The terrorist wrote his own death sentence when he declared war and committed mass murder.

Most are grateful that this man is dead.

Some few supported his demented ideals, and mourn, and vow revenge.

Then there are those pale spectral shades of men that resent the ability of the strong, hate their own weakness, and snipe with words.

Care to guess which category you fit into icbarros?
memphis jailer
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:09:04 PM
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well if you were born a citizen of the united states it IS a right to have a fair trial in this country .... if you were not born in this country and commit heinous acts of violence on innocent people then go into hiding ... well we are not going to greet you with teddy bears and chocolates asking please turn around and put your hands behind your head .... if we would have knocked on the door he would have tried to shoot through it (it happens to cops attempting to serve warrants on fugitives, let alone a person that knows he will die because he is a leader in a terrorist organization)
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:14:14 PM
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If you want to critique the USA do it for the right reasons:

1. Guantanamo Bay, where we have cynically created conditions where we can hold people without charge indefinately since it isn't US soil.
2. Enhanced interrogation (otherwise known as torture).
3. Rendition, "black sites".

Those are areas we could heartily agree upon.

Bin Laden dealt numerous acts of war. In response, he was offed in an act of war. It's fair enough.
boneyfriend
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 10:47:22 PM

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I have loved Michael Moore ever since I saw Roger and Me many years ago. Some of his later movies are inflated but they get their point across. With this I disagree with him. A trial for Bin Laden would have brought out all of the things the US was trying to avoid. Mostly more terrorism and calls for young terrorists. The US did what they had to do. Case closed.
jcbarros
Posted: Friday, May 6, 2011 11:01:37 PM

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Well, if there are such things as International Law, Americans apparently know nothing about that nor boundaries nor whatever. They have license to kill anyone anywhere provided the target looks suitable for them (no regret at all).
OK, you can say what you want. I draw the line here, enough of OBL for me. Adieu.
memphis jailer
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 12:37:49 AM
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I believe the u.n. governs international law and they have known that we held a warrant for your precious bin laden ... now I don't believe that it was a shoot first attitude coming from us ... but we do return fire ... but I guess there is no need for that in Argentina? ... I guess if cops get shot at there they don't return fire? The only supposed innocent killed was a woman that was used as a body shield ... which is awful (if she was an innocent) but its the kind of thing terrorists do
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 3:29:57 AM

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Michael Moore mining more money? Was he asked or did he just come to tell this all by himself?
Have other celebs given their opinion?
jmacann
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 3:52:55 AM
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As I said somewhere else, it is all about grievances against abuses -and about all this going astray. Once the right track gets out of sight and feelings get so mixed up, to petition for a redress of grievances is no longer feasible.

I still think there is no need to either oversimplify or stage arguments on a personal level: both are inadequate ways of dealing with the subject, and lead nowhere.

Cheers
Fran20003
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 4:35:24 AM
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I agree with all of you that the world needed to get rid of UBL, but I must agree with MM that a trial would have seen the US actually administering justice in its best tradition, as a great democratic country. Do you remember WW2? After the war Stalin and Churchill wanted just to hang the numerous war criminals. It was President Truman who insisted on having regular trials, and now we are grateful that all the heinous crimes committed by the Nazi have been punished by the allies in a court of law. UBL was a private citizen who caused the death of too many people, he was an outlaw. We are a democratic country and we must act within the law; and law wants justice to be served in a tribunal, not summarily executed. He was not armed, could not they just seize him? Would have not been better for the entire world to watch UBL decline in jail or be executed rather than turn him, in the eyes of his followers, in a new martyr who died at the hand of Al Quaeda's worst enemy?

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it
beacon1946
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 8:18:37 AM
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I think Fran20003 expresses the opinion of the majority of people in the UK and possibly more widely in Europe where the euphoria over bin Laden’s death has been more muted than in the USA (which I believe has led to criticism of us in some American media). I’m sure we all agree that bin Laden deserved to die but I can not help feeling that the correct course of action was to hold him to account in a court of law. The right to a fair trial is embedded in statements of Human Rights in all democratic countries. I know many will say that bin Laden did not respect the rights of those killed on 9/11 and I fully understand the pain that atrocity caused for all Americans. But, if we are to be true to our values, should we not apply them consistently, irrespective of the level of the crime committed?

I know many will disagree with this view but I am simply expressing the feeling of discomfort I have over the killing. Having said that, I’m glad bin Laden is dead!
wercozy
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 8:45:54 AM
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I think Michael Moore is driven to inform people against the big, the bad, and the ugly, and I love the guy for that. I don't care how rich he gets, I love him.
MarySM
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 9:17:33 AM
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wercozy wrote:
I think Michael Moore is driven to inform people against the big, the bad, and the ugly, and I love the guy for that. I don't care how rich he gets, I love him.


I agree and I like him also. However, OBL sealed his own fate at the time of his capture. If his arms had been above his head and he had a white flag waving in the air he would not have been shot.
Jeech
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 9:50:13 AM
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If he really was unarmed when he was captured his trial should have been done before his last heart beat.
mindmaze
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:11:09 AM
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I do not take any persons side on this matter.

That being said, IF a person or persons, as in a nation, proclaim such enlightened principles as, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Then you better walk the talk!


When the Chinese government chased out the Dalai Lama and others, or they would have been executed, did the Dalai Lama return with an military force or a hit-squad?

It is my position that as a fellow human being, no matter what geographical location you happened to be born, ""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. belong to all . . . even those who do not believe such!

Might does not make right when you are trying to live and walk enlightened principles and wish for others to follow your example!
Jeech
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:14:14 AM
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Michael Moore speaks from the liberal basket#2.
Fran20003
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:33:59 AM
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America's actions will be judged, in the end, by posterity. We are still too shaken by the events of 9/11 to react as reason would command. Do you think, in all honesty, that we can stand the judgment of history? Just a thought.
Christine
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 12:14:43 PM
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It's done. He is dead. Get over it.
Fran20003
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 1:15:24 PM
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Yes, you're right, get over it. Still I regret the opportunity we had to show we are superior to these terrorists we are at war with, that, unlike them, we know right from wrong. I also regret the missed opportunity we had to diminish UBL's image by showing him to all the world with his hair cut in an orange jail uniform. Dead he's more powerful than alive. Can't you see it????
Todd C. Williams
Posted: Saturday, May 7, 2011 3:45:22 PM

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Combining the two topics of Michael Moore and OBL in the same thread leaves lots of room for comments in many directions. Lot sure if you could find more polar opposites.

Being a left-of-liberal liberal, I think Moore has his place in pulling on the center to get them to move. I am not into his sensationalism, but find there is a vein of truth in what he says and one more very important data point. I do not think OBL was executed, I think he was either assassinated or killed in a military strike. Execution has the implication of a trail. Assassination is more political and does not include war efforts. Hence, I lean toward killed in a military strike, we are still are war and he and his followers are still trying to attack us (not just the US, not just Christian, but us non-radical Muslims).

It is hard to draw analogies to WW2 and other war trails, since those were done after the conflict was resolved. This conflict is far from resolved and I frankly cannot tell you what will indicate that it is resolved. We (non-radical Muslim) are still at "war" with an ideology. So when can it stop?

I was not elated when I heard that Bin Laden was dead. My first reaction was, "S**t, what are they going to retaliate with." I have a hard time celebrating anyone's death, but also do not see a way out of this. If you put him on trail and you invite a bigger risk from attacks, kidnappings, etc. attempting to gain his release. What country would hold him knowing the potential recourse.

No, the US Constitution has no relevance since 1) we are at war, 2) this was not on US soil, and 3) OBL was not a US Citizen. As far as impinging on Pakistani soil and international law... Wow, this is not a state we are fighting, it is an ideology. The laws are outdated and bear little relevance. Would we have succeeded in capturing or killing OBL if we had told the Pakistanis? Your guess is as good as mine. It surely would have added risk and a higher potential for failure. Should we damn the Pakistani's? No, they have to watch the regional politics and position themselves as best they see fit. After all, that is why it's called politics ("The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society".)

My 2 cents.

TCW
Joseph Glantz
Posted: Sunday, May 8, 2011 6:58:27 AM
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HWNN1961
Posted: Sunday, May 8, 2011 9:00:45 PM
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Osama was denied his last act,

his final stage.

No martyer given time to vent his rage, and to use the spectacle of his trial to recruit new suicides to his ranks.

He died the death of one outside the norms of law and order, it's fitting.

Had there been a capture would the following have occured:

1. Al Queda taking hostages to bargain for Bin Laden's release?

2. The day of his inevitable execution, what mayhem then?


Adolph Hitler did us the favor of offing himself, and even then there was a nasty insurgency of "Were-wolves" for several years after WWII. Imagine how much worse had he been captured and tried. His underlings could be tried and were (though so many escaped the noose due to cold war politics), but not the man himself.

I put Bin Ladin in that same category. Catch and try his lieutenants. The man himself got what he deserved, and didn't get a chance to use the event of his own trial, conviction, and death, to incite more mayhem. He's done quite enough already thanks.
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