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Different Pronunciations of Names Options
Priscilla86
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 5:27:48 AM

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Hi!

The other day I was watching a movie in which its main character was named 'Warwick' but pronounced 'Warrick'. Can someone explain to me why the different pronunciations?

Another person with a common name but different pronunciation is Ralph Fiennes (I understand it's pronounced 'Rafe'?) but he is not American so could it be something to do with Welsh pronunciation?
pjharvey
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 6:52:13 AM
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"Warwick" is indeed pronounced "Warrick".
No clue as to "Ralph"...
Axel Bear
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 7:13:50 AM

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Priscilla86 wrote:
...pronunciation is Ralph Fiennes (I understand it's pronounced 'Rafe'?) but he is not American so could it be something to do with Welsh pronunciation?


Hallo Priscilla,

Here is the pronunciation of Ralph Fiennes.

Fiennes was born in Suffolk, England and moved to Republic of Ireland when he was 11 years old. He is an eighth!! cousin of Prince Charles.






Priscilla86
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 7:20:52 AM

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I just Googled this and again, it seems to be the case of AE and BE differences. Huh, never knew it extended to names as well.

Anyway, the warwick pronunciation without the second w apparently is a BE pronunciation. (FYI, it was an American movie and this 'Warwick' guy is American but he was supposed to be snooty, so it makes perfect sense now)
thar
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 10:31:45 AM

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The name is derived from the place, and the place is 'worrick'.
'-wick and -wich' are very common English place names, and the w is usually silent if it can be - eg Greenwich (Grennitch), Norwich (Norritch), Warwick (Worrick), Hawick (Hoik) and Alnick (Annick).

In America, these syllables tend to be more 'carefully' pronounced. So you have the singer Dionne Warwick (wor-wick), the city of Birmingham (Berm-ing-ham), Alabama (Whereas the original Birmingham in England is berm-ing-um), and US Southampton (south hampton) instead of England's Southampton (south-ampton)

In some cases American English is closer to the original seventeenth century English, and it is actually the British that have changed - but I think the dropped w is very old, as it occurs in so many names.
I think in this case it is the American pronunciation that changed - I guess some people said it as written and maybe the original owners were too nice to correct them Whistle

Sometimes it goes the other way - names were written down phonetically (especially on immigration to America)- so you get the surnames Worrick, Warick etc. Once you have people with no city called Warwick to link it with, the name can be pronounced any way you think is right. Which leaves a lot of room for variation in most names! There is no 'right way'.

A wick is an old English name for a market town or trading place, or originally farm or fortified place. That is why there are so many.. But it can also mean a port or inlet. In Scandinavian it has a v which is actually pronounced (Vik, Narvik, Reykjavík...Whistle )


Romany
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 10:43:45 AM
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Priscilla - keep in mind though that, in most cases, Ralph IS pronounced with with the 'l' in English. Or at least it has been for the last two centuries. It's an Old English name but the pronunciation is usually modernised. Those wanting to celebrate their Celtic or Anglo Saxon heritage still omit the 'l' but, unless it's a name that's been in a particular family for centuries, most parents don't insist of the older pronunciation.

English place-names (Warwick is a place name) don't pronounce the 'w' in 'wick' or 'wich'. And 'ham' is pronounced "hm" - NO vowel.

"Wick has several meanings. At the beginning of a name, like Wickham, in Hampshire its derived from the Roman word 'vicus', which meant vicinity. At the end of a name wick sometimes meant trading place e.g. Norwich was the north wick. It could also mean a port like Greenwich. Or it could mean a specialised farm e.g. Gatwick was a goat farm and Chiswick was a cheese farm."(http://www.localhistories.org/names.html)

Thus 'Norritch' (Norwich) 'Grenitch' (Greenwich) 'Chizick' (Chiswick). And 'Cheltnm' (Cheltenham etc.).

(Gatwick is one exception - perhaps because of so many international visitors?).

Anyway, if you DO get to these parts as planned, perhaps this will be of some help?
Priscilla86
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 1:16:51 PM

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thar and Romany, thanks for the explanations! I admit, my knowledge in the history of English language is absolutely lacking and explanations like these are always appreciated.

As for the AE vs BE pronunciation of names...I've noticed they are quite arbitrary as to which one goes and which one stays, aren't they? For example, I think most Americans still pronounce Greenwich in its original 'grenitch' (I'd actually been wanting to ask this, so that's another question answered), yet most Americans I know pronounce Warwick with the second 'w' sound intact.

Sidebar - how about Greenwich Mean Time? Is 'Greenwich' here also pronounced 'grenitch'?

I'm not surprised Alnick is pronounced 'annick' because of how 'salmon' is pronounced. (Sidebar - is Alnick same as Alnwick? If so, is 'Alnwick' also pronounced 'annick'?)

Romany - yes, this knowledge will be good for when I'm traveling across UK and Scotland. Here's hoping it will happen soon Dancing Dancing
thar
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 2:03:30 PM

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Oops - that was supposed to be Alnwick. I thought I might have omitted the silent w - but I just wrote it here again and my ***** predictive text 'corrected' it.

English pronunciation is fine - it is the spelling that is insane Whistle


Yes, it is always 'Grennitch' - the time zone is named after the place, and the observatory is there in Greenwich, which is now part of London. There was a West Indian cricketer a while ago called Gordon Greenidge - I don't know if the name originated from writing down 'Grenitch' phonetically?

'-cester' is another fun one. For locals, Worcester, Gloucester, Leicester are all two syllables, (wusster, gloster lester) for tourists a confused three syllables! Put that together with 'shire' and you get wusstasha instead of wor-cester-shire.

I don't suppose you know old planes, but there was a plane called the Gloster. I assumed it was manufactured by someone with that name, derived from the place with a change in spelling, as with the other examples, but apparently...

Quote:
The Gloster Aircraft Company was a British aircraft manufacturer from 1917 to 1963.

Founded as The Gloucestershire Aircraft Company Limited during the First World War, with the aircraft construction activities of H H Martyn & Co Ltd of Cheltenham it produced fighters during the war. It was renamed as foreigners found 'Gloucestershire' difficult to pronounce. It later became part of the Hawker Siddeley group and the Gloster name disappeared in 1963.


Blame the Romans for that one. The Latin for a military camp or fort was castrum. Lots of pesky Britons fighting the Roman soldiers, so lots of military towns with names ending in -chester, -caster and -cester. The others are fine - eg Lancaster, Winchester, Manchester. But Leicester, Worcester, Gloucester....d'oh! and lots of confused tourists!


NKM
Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 11:50:33 PM

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There's a town named Greenwich not far from my home. It's pronounced "Greenwitch", and its high-school sports teams are called the Green Witches.

The identically named city in Connecticut is pronounced the British way ("Grennitch"), as is the famous downstate hippie enclave of Greenwich ("Grennitch") Village.

Romany
Posted: Saturday, October 1, 2016 5:37:26 AM
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Ooops. I only see now that my post overlapped with Thar's - sorry for the double information!!
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Monday, October 3, 2016 7:08:25 AM

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When you do get here, don't panic - I think most 'locals' in places with these names are used to mispronunciations.

There are three small towns around Manchester - Shaw, Denshaw and Audenshaw.
Shaw is something like /ʃoʊw/ - a slightly longer and broader vowel than "show".
Denshaw is /denʃɜ:ʳ/ - almost like 'denture' with a very heavily stressed 'den'.
Audenshaw is /dnʃoʊw/ - Ohdnshaw, with a highly-stressed open 'o', and almost silent 'dn'.

Near where I live now is a town called Penicuik.
Many people - even Scots - call it "Penny-quick" /penəkwɪk/, but it's properly said pen-ni-cook - /peni:ku:k/ - "The head of the cuckoo".
pedro
Posted: Monday, October 3, 2016 9:42:50 AM

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we've had a 'though' and a 'thought' within this discussion so here are some more pronunciations of 'ough' in English;

Rough, lough (as in lock) , plough, through, , cough, hiccough (hiccup), thorough..

All in all English is not very logical with its spelling/pronunciation. Probably the result of myriad historical invasions before we learned how to ourselves.
Priscilla86
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 12:23:33 AM

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NKM wrote:
There's a town named Greenwich not far from my home. It's pronounced "Greenwitch", and its high-school sports teams are called the Green Witches.

The identically named city in Connecticut is pronounced the British way ("Grennitch"), as is the famous downstate hippie enclave of Greenwich ("Grennitch") Village.



Drag0nspeaker wrote:
When you do get here, don't panic - I think most 'locals' in places with these names are used to mispronunciations.

There are three small towns around Manchester - Shaw, Denshaw and Audenshaw.
Shaw is something like /ʃoʊw/ - a slightly longer and broader vowel than "show".
Denshaw is /denʃɜ:ʳ/ - almost like 'denture' with a very heavily stressed 'den'.
Audenshaw is /oʊdnʃoʊw/ - Ohdnshaw, with a highly-stressed open 'o', and almost silent 'dn'.

Near where I live now is a town called Penicuik.
Many people - even Scots - call it "Penny-quick" /penəkwɪk/, but it's properly said pen-ni-cook - /peni:ku:k/ - "The head of the cuckoo".



Pedro wrote:
we've had a 'though' and a 'thought' within this discussion so here are some more pronunciations of 'ough' in English;

Rough, lough (as in lock) , plough, through, , cough, hiccough (hiccup), thorough..

All in all English is not very logical with its spelling/pronunciation. Probably the result of myriad historical invasions before we learned how to ourselves.



I guess you just have to know, don't you?

Speaking of 'illogical' pronunciation, just to share, there's this clam called geoduck, of which the correct pronunciation is 'goo-ee-duck' because the name is derived from Native American language. I've never had one but I've seen it in a tank at a sushi restaurant here. I've only heard one colleague mentioning it, and she pronounced it (incorrectly) 'jee-o-duck'.

Anyway, the silent 'w' in BE only applies to place names, right? British don't actually pronounce the food item sandwich 'sannich'?
thar
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 2:10:35 AM

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Ah, its more complicated than that. The sandwich is named after the place. Well, not the place, the person, the Earl of Sandwich.

Quote:
It was named after John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, an 18th-century English aristocrat. It is said that he ordered his valet to bring him meat tucked between two pieces of bread, and others began to order "the same as Sandwich!"


But you are Earl of a place, in this case the town of Sandwich in Kent. He is named after the town. The town was there first - a sand wic. Whistle





You know of cities like Birmingham, right? Well, Ham is another Old English name for a village. There is one near the town of Sandwich. Makes for an interesting road sign.



[image not available]




Quote:
The name is of Old English origin, meaning 'a trading-centre on sand' (from wic, a special purpose building such as a trading post).[3]

In 1028 King Canute (c. 995-1035) granted a charter to the monks of Christ Church, Canterbury to operate a ferry across the river and collect tolls.

In 1192, returning from the Third Crusade, Richard the Lionheart was jailed by the Holy Roman Emperor Henry VI. Henry released Richard in February 1194. On 13 March 1194, Richard landed at the port of Sandwich and came back to England.[4]

Before Sandwich became a Cinque Port, the ancient Saxon town of Stonar, on the bank of the Wantsum estuary, but on the opposite side of the mouth of the River Stour, was already well established. It remained a place of considerable importance but it disappeared almost without trace in the 14th century. The ruins of the major Roman fort of Richborough are close by. It was the landing place of the Roman invasion of Britain in AD 43.[6] In 2008, an archaeological dig proved that this was a defensive site of a Roman beachhead, protecting 700 metres of coast.[7]

On 21 May 1216, Prince Louis of France landed at Sandwich in support of the barons' war against King John of England.[8]



But there are also places named after the person, that particular Earl of Sandwich.
He was a statesman and in charge of the British navy, and two island chains were named after him by explorer James Cook - the South Sandwich Islands, in the South Atlantic. Very interesting volcanic arc! And the [North] Sandwich Islands, now known as Hawaii.

So, it was a place, then people, then a food item, then places again. And, yes, all with a w sound, at least now.Whistle
Priscilla86
Posted: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 4:53:44 AM

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I swear to God, someday I'm going to travel the world and take pictures next to all the awesome road signs in the world! First stop, Ham Sandwich. Next, Hell in Norway...Whistle
Annelise Carlsen
Posted: Friday, October 7, 2016 6:52:37 AM

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Quote:
'-cester' is another fun one. For locals, Worcester, Gloucester, Leicester are all two syllables, (wusster, gloster lester) for tourists a confused three syllables! Put that together with 'shire' and you get wusstasha instead of wor-cester-shire.


I always learned the same: that Worcester is wusster and Worcestershire is wusstasha.
Imagine my surprise when I heard a well-known presenter at BBC Brit pronounce it wor-chester! Eh?

However, I'll still ask for wusstasha sauce!

Priscilla86: when in Norway you might want to visit Hole and Rude as well... Whistle
(we have a couple of Rudes in Denmark, too)
Here's some inspiration for other places to travel
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Friday, October 7, 2016 7:02:46 AM

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Meanwhile in Finland...



[image not available]

Hope123
Posted: Friday, October 7, 2016 10:33:45 AM

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How do I correctly pronounce the Swedish name Blomkvist?
thar
Posted: Friday, October 7, 2016 10:56:45 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
How do I correctly pronounce the Swedish name Blomkvist?


Blum_kvisst

I'll try and get you some audio.

Edit - Got a better one - here is the film trailer. http://youtu.be/fU1d1vPaOkY


Or in normal speech, less dramatic:
interview Noomi Rapace
Look at 10.26, 11.15, for example.

I was looking for a film clip from the Swedish film version : Män som hatar kvinnor (say it out loud if you can't work out what it means - and remember queens are women first!)(In English changed to The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo).
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, October 8, 2016 3:11:42 PM

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Thanks, Thar. In my mind I was saying Blahm- que - vist.

It is more of an uh sound in the first syllable and a bit of a long e sound rather than a short i sound in the last syllable. And only two syllables.

I read all three books and watched when the films were popular whichever films were made in American and in Swedish and was waiting for more. I actually enjoyed the acting better in the Swedish films, although I had to read subtitles which I normally don't like to do.

I've now, just by happenstance, started reading the sequel to Steig Larrson's trilogy - "The Girl in the Spider's Web" by David Lagercrantz. No opinion yet.

Saying it out loud did nothing for me - kvinnor - but the translation says it means "Men Who Hate Women". Probably why I liked it is that even though she was obviously a caricature, she was smarter, fought back against evil powerful men - and kicked the behinds of those that needed it.





thar
Posted: Saturday, October 8, 2016 4:12:53 PM

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I must admit I like the Swedish version - maybe because I saw them first, and even though the American film got reviews, some reviews saying it is better, they are still 'copies' to me. You know how it is - whichever version of something you see first - song, film, TV show - it is usually hard to displace in your mind, even by the actual 'original'. And almost never by remakes. d'oh!
Also, Swedish films accept that people actually have sex, imperfectly, messily and naked!Eh? And don't make it snigger-fodder.

I am surprised you didn't get the title, although in English slang it sounds homophobic, not misogynistic.

Män (som) hatar kvinnor.
Men (who) hate queens. (=Women)
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, October 8, 2016 7:44:53 PM

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First of all I pronounced it hat not hate. (The syllable ended in a consonant so in English the vowel is short.) Secondly I just got what you meant by your comment about queens being women first. ;)

They should have left it "Men Who Hate Women" instead of changing it to "The Girl Who". Queens would have a different meaning here.
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