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The English language came from German? Options
pljames
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:03:23 AM
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How did the English language come from the German language? I am totally puzzled on how that was done. Specanzy Dorch (means German speak)? It has been said the first language was Hebrew and from that, all languages supposedly came? curious-Paul
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:13:02 AM

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pljames wrote:
It has been said the first language was Hebrew and from that, all languages supposedly came? curious-Paul

Genesis

Quote:
11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Lotje1000
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:15:02 AM

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Languages evolve over time. Their words, grammar and pronunciation will change.

A good way to depict this is the language tree. I'm pretty sure someone on the forums has posted this one already but I can't find it.

Like trees, languages have their roots. In the case of English and German, they trace their lineage back to the Germanic language (which finds its roots in the Indo-European language). The Germanic language was spoken by Germanic tribes. As the tribes split up and settled in different parts of Europe, they lost contact with one another and developed their language more independently, resulting in different languages and dialects.
thar
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:40:22 AM

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All Europeans come from somewhere else originally, but starting at the time when there were people in Britain, they spoke a Celtic language. Then, the Anglo-Saxons moved in. Where the Germanic tribes settled, the new 'English' language evolved.



[image not available]



The Welsh language is the closest to what the early Britons spoke, but it is nothing like English. The parts of Britain not settled by the Germanic tribes still have their own languages, in the Celtic family - Irish, Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, and Cornish. And Breton, in France.

These are the old, original 'British' languages.



[image not available]





That is why the English language is similar to German. It also has a lot of words in common with Scandinavian languages. Then the French invaded. They did not displace the English language, but all the French words came in on top. That is why there are two words for everything in English!



I don't know what the Bible says about language, but I think it does say there were lots of languages, even then. Not just Hebrew. The Tower of Babel is the parable of people not understanding each other - and it is exactly the same in our modern world! Whistle



Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 10:59:39 AM

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thar wrote:
I don't know what the Bible says about language, but I think it does say there were lots of languages, even then. Not just Hebrew. The Tower of Babel is the parable of people not understanding each other - and it is exactly the same in our modern world! Whistle

You shouldn't take it seriously - as someone brought up in the USSR I am an atheist and do not believe a single word in the Bible.
J-P
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 11:44:28 AM

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The Angles and the Saxons were some of the tribes that invaded Great Britain, and they came from Germany. A lot of English Words come from German (House- Haus, etc…) and all the irregular verbs of the English language are German verbs (forget = vergessen, for example.)
thar
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 12:03:50 PM

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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:

You shouldn't take it seriously - as someone brought up in the USSR I am an atheist and do not believe a single word in the Bible.


But Paul does, which is why I made the reference.


Axel Bear
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 4:47:06 PM

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thar wrote:
...English language is similar to German. It also has a lot of words in common with Scandinavian languages. Then the French invaded...


Was it not the Normans (descendants of the Norsemen--'Scandinavians') who caused all the 'problems'? Can't blame the French for everything.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 5:10:37 PM

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Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1 wrote:
thar wrote:
I don't know what the Bible says about language, but I think it does say there were lots of languages, even then. Not just Hebrew. The Tower of Babel is the parable of people not understanding each other - and it is exactly the same in our modern world! Whistle

You shouldn't take it seriously - as someone brought up in the USSR I am an atheist and do not believe a single word in the Bible.


75% of Russians are Orthodox Christians who believe everything the Bible teaches them. You should take that seriously.
Харбин Хэйлунцзян 1
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 5:32:20 PM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
75% of Russians are Orthodox Christians who believe everything the Bible teaches them. You should take that seriously.

It was just 25 years ago that 90% were atheists.
thar
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 6:10:05 PM

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Axel Bear wrote:


thar wrote:
...English language is similar to German. It also has a lot of words in common with Scandinavian languages. Then the French invaded...


Was it not the Normans (descendants of the Norsemen--'Scandinavians') who caused all the 'problems'? Can't blame the French for everything.



Ah, but when a few hundred Norsemen got given the land in France, with thousands of French vassals, they had to learn French. Simple necessity, to rule the place. And a gesture to Charles that they were going to be good boys in his kingdom and stop being Viking raiders. And everyone knows how resistant the French are to learning foreign languagesWhistle
That is why English now contains French, not just more Germano-Norse. 'Le weekend' seems like apt revenge for all the weird spelling English has ended up with by mixing the two.
The Norse already held half of England anyway, but they didn't settle in great numbers. But then they went home for a family funeral and never come back. (Family squabbles - sometimes it's best not to ask).



I suspect English historians have, before the modern era, tended to downplay England's part in the North Sea Empire. It is difficult to both paint the Vikings as demonic raiders and at the same time acknowledge that the kings of Wessex did swear fealty to Cnut as King of England. So, just mark bits of the East and North as the Danegeld, and lets try to forget about it, eh?

The Norwegians did do their bit to cause the Norman invasion to be successful though. They invaded the week before, in the north, and Harold saw them off (including his brother Tostig). Then three days later it was William in the south. You have to feel for the poor guy. To have one invasion may be regarded as a misfortune - to have two in a week looks like they really are out to get you!
Medea
Posted: Thursday, September 8, 2016 6:11:44 PM

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Also you must bear in mind that on 1.066 Normands occupied England and thus there are lots of French words among the English vocabulary.

as for , describe,various,language,paint and so on....
pjharvey
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2016 2:41:14 AM
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thar wrote:
Axel Bear wrote:


thar wrote:
...English language is similar to German. It also has a lot of words in common with Scandinavian languages. Then the French invaded...


Was it not the Normans (descendants of the Norsemen--'Scandinavians') who caused all the 'problems'? Can't blame the French for everything.



Ah, but when a few hundred Norsemen got given the land in France, with thousands of French vassals, they had to learn French. Simple necessity, to rule the place. And a gesture to Charles that they were going to be good boys in his kingdom and stop being Viking raiders. And everyone knows how resistant the French are to learning foreign languagesWhistle
That is why English now contains French, not just more Germano-Norse. 'Le weekend' seems like apt revenge for all the weird spelling English has ended up with by mixing the two.
The Norse already held half of England anyway, but they didn't settle in great numbers. But then they went home for a family funeral and never come back. (Family squabbles - sometimes it's best not to ask).



I suspect English historians have, before the modern era, tended to downplay England's part in the North Sea Empire. It is difficult to both paint the Vikings as demonic raiders and at the same time acknowledge that the kings of Wessex did swear fealty to Cnut as King of England. So, just mark bits of the East and North as the Danegeld, and lets try to forget about it, eh?

The Norwegians did do their bit to cause the Norman invasion to be successful though. They invaded the week before, in the north, and Harold saw them off (including his brother Tostig). Then three days later it was William in the south. You have to feel for the poor guy. To have one invasion may be regarded as a misfortune - to have two in a week looks like they really are out to get you!



The way you narrate history is fascinating, thar!
Romany
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2016 3:10:57 PM
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Thar -

Of course you're right, and the whole rapin' pillagin' stuff doesn't float any more. Yet what always puzzles me is why all the things historians have discovered and disproved, say, in the last two decades, take so long to filter down into the curriculum? And indeed why here are still documentaries all over media disseminating and enforcing so many of our myths as truth?

We have instant access to more knowledge than we've ever had before - yet it's still happening?

thar
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2016 4:51:21 PM

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I think it is actually quite interesting to see how history is presented to people. I mean, science is a bit juggernaut to move, but it does move eventually - but history? It doesn't just have natural conservatism to deal with - adapting to new 'facts' entails changing your whole identity. History is about how you view yourself, how you view other people. Changing that attacks the heart of who you perceive yourselves to be. It is often used as a socio-political tool, and you can argue that it is always used that way. Against that, new facts have very little leverage. Story trumps evidence. However much historians may think they are impartial, they are interpreting things - and when you add the additional layer of 'media' - it is amazing that anything is ever challenged!

Historians challenge the status quo with a new view - and then that revisionist view is again challenged - and in time it generally settles into somewhere in the middle - but that doesn't make for flashy documentaries!
But things do change. The Celts used to be 'not Romans' and now they are considered an advanced culture in their own right with Pan-European trade connections, great skills and makers of beautiful wares . I don't know if that has filtered down into school teaching yet.
The Norse have also been revisited, but mostly as pagan adventurers - not as a Christian European power player. Maybe because that is the more exotic context?

Cnut is a great example of this. Apparently an English Mediaeval historian labelled him "the Greatest Anglo-Saxon King of England". Not Edward the Confessor. Not Alfred. Cnut. Clearly the fact he was not even Anglo-Saxon was not a big factor for the historian. He was crowned in London, buried in Winchester. King of part of and then all England, King of Denmark and King of Norway. A big cheese in European politics, doing deals with the Pope. A successful warrior and a wise king. And what do English people know about him? Some misunderstanding that he tried to stop the tide! OK the House of Knýtlinga only ruled for a very short time and it fell apart not long after Cnut died, but they were kings of England. Cnut won it by conquest and stabilised it by strong rule.
And, not long afterwards, history recognised that, it seems. (Well, at least that historian did - presumably a churchman, and he had a good rep with the Church - but it seems to be a valid viewpoint).

So why are Sweyn Forkbeard, Cnut, Harald, Hardecnut written out of English history?

(Please excuse any factual mistakes here, I am thinking this up as I go along!)

It seems there then came the search for 'roots' - and the need for Plantagenets to link themselves back to great 'English' kings - Edward the Confessor, Alfred. And the search for English identity. Possibly as a result of the disjunct of Norman rulers? The invention of Arthur, Tristan. Stories with the refinement of French chivalry with the romance and mystery of Anglo-Saxon and British kings? No room for an inconvenient Danish empire, with links to those coarse Danes and Norwegians. And later, add the whole Roman element. So the story became when the Romans left, the country fell into savagery and darkness because the enlightened, civilised Romans had gone. But writing is a sign of civilisation, so Bede becomes the last word, however third-hand his information. So you end up with England's self-perception being warped by all sorts of biases. Stories get entrenched, and you give the people what they want. Good guys, bad guys, national heroes. History, not 'truth'.
I don't think most people could handle the truth! Whistle
Everybody does it. Some are just more upfront about it than others. And I think it is interesting - the way history is owned by a country, presented to its people, is sometimes more interesting, and more telling about a society, than the history itself!

The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.” - Voltaire

Agh - bit of a wall of words there. It is just something I find interesting. From daily newspapers to history from a thousand years ago, it is all about the angle. Does 'histiography' describe it? I don't know if that includes what I mean.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Friday, September 9, 2016 7:16:35 PM

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Hi thar!

An invention? Arthur?

Come on now, I remember Arthur - not a bad guy really.
The 'Christian' bit is a little far-fetched, of course - I think it was Geoffrey of Monmouth wrote that bit in.

Shame about his family - Morrigan was a bit of a handful, and that nasty son of his, too.

All the best,
The Dragon.
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Saturday, September 10, 2016 2:11:02 AM

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As I understand the story Cnut was attempting to show his court he was not all powerful and could not stop the tide, it was the up to a higher power than him God.

Most British people call him by the name King Canute.
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