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ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:02:25 AM

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Please Discuss:

*female infanticide/ foeticide,

*abortions in general

on this thread.



didn't write much myself because the thread was created in haste, to salvage the 'overpopulation' thread from digression/ threadjacking.
Anxious
B355E
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 3:34:06 AM
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Gunjika
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:46:43 AM
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@B355E: That still leaves the issue of female infanticide/foeticide yet to be discussed.
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:47:59 AM

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Hmm, I thought so. How could such a prominent topic ever be left undiscussed! Anyway, I just created this so my other thread was safe from off-topic closely related discussions.

Angel


okay, Gunjika beat me to posting my reply d'oh! . Honestly, I didn't check the link you gave B355E Anxious
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:55:37 AM

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Okay, let's pick up from Tov's query:

Tovarish, on the '9 billion humans' thread, wrote:

On the ABC yesterday a report from India, that there are 600,000 female foetuses aborted each year.

Foetuside,an ultrasound followed by a very cheap abortion tablet.

The report went on to say the practise has been happening for some time, creating an imbalance in available women for marriage.

Can our Indian posters shed any light on this report, is it factual?


I'm not sure about the figures, Tov, but that female foeticide is still rampant in many Asian countries such as India and China is a sad truth.
In India, the government has banned sex determination through ultrasound, but I read recently in a newspaper article that parents have gone a step further. They now go to foreign cities to where tickets are cheap, such as Dubai and get sex determined and abortion done there.

Gunjika
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 5:50:42 AM
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India has been mostly a Patriarchal society with a few exceptions here and there. The great Indian middle class needs a son to carry on its nearly obsolete rituals, its feeble family name, to inherit its meager land & property and to burn the dead, which are forbidden for daughters. It is believed that until last rites are performed by a ‘son’, the dead don’t get ‘moksha’ or salvation.

This is a picture of India nearly 50 years ago: When a woman was expecting, the family’s old women would sing celebration songs, which depicted the birth of a son. As soon as a son was born, they beat a steel plate to announce it and the whole clan celebrated it like a festival. These celebrations then went on for months on end. But if a daughter was born, there were no more songs, no celebrations. Old women even started crying and cursing the woman who gave birth to a daughter. A daughter meant a lot of worries in bringing her up, finding a suitable groom for her and the hefty dowry. In extremely orthodox families, the infant daughter would be killed by either drowning in a pitcher filled with milk or by giving her salt. If she survived that, she grew up living a second hand, low-quality life as compared to her brothers. To date, such villages can be found in India, where there are no daughters, where no wedding procession (baraat) came in last 90-100 years.

India, 15-20 years ago: As soon as a woman became pregnant, she would be taken to a doctor, have her tests done, and if the foetus was found to be a female, the family will get rid of the future burden instantly by getting the foetus aborted. Mostly the woman would be willing too; because she did not want her daughter to go through what she herself went through.

India, Now: The government and the law have imposed strict regulations against the test of gender of the unborn child. But, the educated and happening but still the great Indian middle class does not want to let it go. Since women are better educated, they have access to internet and thus they have the power of information. So, as soon as a woman gets pregnant, she surfs the net, finds out the right address and flies out to Dubai, has her tests done, and if the foetus is found to be a female, …you know the rest of the story!
Ray41
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 6:54:20 AM

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I saw the same TV coverage that Tov most likely did.
The statistics were that 600,000 baby girls are the victims of ifanticide annually and it has got to the point of creating a gender imbalance. There are now not enough girls to go round so some of the men will not find a wife.Think
GabhSigenod
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 7:26:47 AM

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On our farm we keep a population of females at a ratio 3/1 to males.
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:30:04 AM

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I'm curious, how long has India had a population problem?
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:51:48 AM

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Frankly, I don't know what to say on this topic.

My parents have three daughters. And we have been brought up better than any sons could be in the world. Tongues were clucked, heads shaken and consolations given with each of our birth. This all only fuelled my mother's inspiration to educate and groom us so well, we could show the world how wrong they were to think she was unfortunate to have three daughters.

A few of my mother's friends did get female foetuses aborted.

It's yet another societal evil that casts a stigma on our religion. Wasn't Sitaji a daughter, Radha, Durga a woman? Is there one instance of grieving on a daughter's birth in our scriptures?

Ancient generations, it was understood: dowry, physical labour help by males in fields etc. were reasons why males were preferred.

But why the modern or even a little older generations would want boys is beyond my comprehension. That the women got foetuses aborted 'so their daughters wouldn't suffer the same fate as them' doesn't sound like a very convincing excuse. It's these very women who are incharge of what kind of lives their girls will lead. Aren't they sure of themselves to be able to love them like they would a son?

I don't understand why women still do this, and educated ones too! God only knows what runs through their minds!
HWNN1961
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:55:30 AM
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That's depressing news.

I'd have hoped that the rise of a middle class would help end the practise of aborting females. You achieve a middle class in the first place through a vibrant creative entrepreneurial class. Anyone, male or female, can have a good idea and profit from it. Also, I'd have hoped that an Indian middle class would want to educate their daughters. Suddenly "my daughter the doctor" is an attractive "catch". Apparently it isn't working out this way.

So, it's clearly more of a cultural problem than it is a question of economics. Any ideas? If the middle class is still ending their pregnancies if the child is female, what chance is there for her to be sent to school, nevermind college, if she somehow manages to escape this fate?

Is it the burden of a dowry? A female lawyer or surgeon would bring wealth to any family she married into. Education could break the cycle, couldn't it???
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:13:15 AM

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That's the perplexity I'm facing too, HWNN. Even educated women go for aborting female foetuses, not all, but if it's rampant enough to make news, then there's quite a significant number.

Dowry isn't a problem in love marriages that are on an increase here, but arranged marriages still demand dowry, if the groom is not righteous enough to deny it; but again, would educated women give their daughters' hands in marriage with a dowry? My mum would certainly not. Then surely fear of dowry is not what drives educated women to terminate female foetuses.

There are many girls going to schools and colleges, almost to a ratio of 1:1 with boys.

I don't think any female foetus would escape this fate of abortion, if the parents have been desperate enough to get the gender tested despie the strict ban on it. They'll surely find a way to get abortion done too.

I think girls who are educated enough to become high-earning professionals won't end up marrying with someone who demands dowry. That is what girls with perfunctory graduations and low-earning jobs would do, IMO.
In any case, the family demanding dowry will not take into account what wealth the woman could bring in after marriage, they might even be looking to make her a stay-at-home housewife.

Healthy education (including moral and ethical) and awareness are certainly what could break any vicious cycle, but it's a hard goal to achieve. We'd been discussing why on the '9 billion humans' thread.
Cat
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:57:22 AM

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A discussion in one of my university classes (1990) was about India and it's increasing population. One of the points made was about males being important to support parents, especially mothers in old age. Is this no longer an issue now that women are more often educated or is it still expected that males will "support" their their parents along with their own families?
richsap
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:10:04 AM
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GabhSigenod wrote:
On our farm we keep a population of females at a ratio 3/1 to males.


You have a people farm?

Sick
abcxyz
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:37:59 AM
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In Bengali middle and upper class families of Kolkata I don't remember seeing anyone grieving over a daughter's birth. In my neighbourhood most of the families have one or two children, and most of these children are girls. None of our middle and upper class family friends and relatives of my parents' generation or younger have more than two children.
lenam
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:50:08 AM
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My paternal grandparents had 16 children. I have heard my grandmother say that in those days they did not worry about having many children. They did not have to go out to earn a living because most of the families had agriculture or weaved within the house and were confined to the house. Of the 16 children, the elder children were to look after their younger siblings while they also went to school till they thought they were ready to take up the father’s work in taking care of the land or farm or some such. My grandfather passed away before I was born but I have seen my grandmother as a healthy woman till her death at 82. She had five children after she even had a grandchild. Some of her children are even younger to her grandchildren. My father is the 11th child. Six of my father’s siblings died before I was born.

I have heard my father say that they did not have enough food or clothes for all in the family but his parents did not stop having children!

My parents also say that the reason that people had many children in those days was that the people had no other means of entertainment, which is very true!
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:59:37 AM

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d'oh! umm... we were to discuss female foeticide, and abortions on this thread.

I think, lenam , you posted on the wrong thread by mistake. Your post belongs in the other thread '9 billion humans'; or is it pertinent in some way I'm missing?
lenam
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:27:21 AM
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Oh yes, Ludic. Sorry! I will however add to it here on-topic!

In those days how did they know whether the foetus was a boy or girl? They had no scans. Perhaps that was that the reason they did not do female foeticide? If they had a means of determining the sex of the foetus, they would have certainly did it I guess. The fact that they had to spend to a great extent in getting the girl child married, regardless of whether she was educated or not! If the girl was educated, she had to be married to a guy equal or greater than that of her's. So, in both cases (educated or uneducated), the parents thought that a girl child was only a liability for the them.

These days, though the system of dowry is no more in some places (thanks to the Indian Law on dowry system), the expenses involved in gold ornaments, expensive clothes and several other expensive items that the bride's parents have to offer the groom's family at the time of the marriage, it is very fortunate that the girl child is considered a burden by parents.

Many of us are fortunate to have parents who did think differently. My parents wanted a girl child after two sons and that is why I was born. However, in our villages still the female foeticide happens on a daily basis, despite the Law being enforced on this act!

Thanks to the Cradle Baby scheme by our government, which helps in controlling the female foeticde to a certain extent.
Epiphileon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:08:28 PM

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I don't know if anyone has already answered this question, so I'll ask it. Does anyone know how old this practice is, in its infanticide manifestation?
Also this question went past with no comment, I am still taking some search shots for an answer, but so far with no luck.
Does anyone know when India's population growth became a problem?
srirr
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 12:22:44 AM

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@ Epi: Infanticide is an age old practice. There may not be any specific date (or atleatst I don't know) to which we can connect this. My guess is it would had started in medieval India. (I am unable to comment on its global initiation) Girls, as Gunjika and others said, are considerd to be a burden still today in many families. The social customs and tradition have been lopsided since ages. Man is the master, and in this male-dominated society, girls had been thrown on margin. The various traditions and rituals got distorted in the course of time and the situation of girls worsened.

As Ludic quoted a few revered females in India, it shows our respect and acceptance of girl child in the ancient times, which faded with time. Still today, despite some biased traditions and customs, girls in many families are accepted and welcome. I have seen families who do not prefer their feet touched by girls and treat girls with respect. (Touching feet of elders is a symbol of respect and regard in Hindus). Small girls are worshipped as image of Goddess. This could be another discussion.

To Epi's second query, we often say that post-World War II, the dearness started increasing. This period also saw independence of India which ironically could not control it. This was the period when population growth started becoming a problem. Measures were initiated to control population and family planning came into existence.
lenam
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 1:46:28 AM
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Epiphileon wrote:
I'm curious, how long has India had a population problem?


"Throughout the twentieth century, India has been in the midst of a demographic transition. At the beginning of the century, endemic disease, periodic epidemics, and famines kept the death rate high enough to balance out the high birth rate. Between 1911 and 1920, the birth and death rates were virtually equal--about forty-eight births and forty-eight deaths per 1,000 population. The increasing impact of curative and preventive medicine (especially mass inoculations) brought a steady decline in the death rate. By the mid-1990s, the estimated birth rate had fallen to twenty-eight per 1,000, and the estimated death rate had fallen to ten per 1,000."

The following could be possible reasons for the population problem in India:

1. The fertility rate in India has been high.
2. The death rate has been low. The average life expectancy is high.
3. We have had less number of wars and plagues.
4. Indians have mostly been confined to the subcontinent for several years.
5. Marriage is an important institution and so the children born are more likely to have a healthy mental and physical growth with both parents present.
6. Polygamy is unlawful for Hindus.
7. India was grossly underdeveloped till the end of colonial rule.
ludic
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:06:07 AM

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hmm... how does polygamy being unlawful for Hindus exacerbate the population problem? Think

And whyever is this being discussed on this 'female foeticide' thread? Shame on you leon
Epiphileon
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 10:10:57 AM

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ludic wrote:

And whyever is this being discussed on this 'female foeticide' thread? Shame on you leon

In the introduction to a book on the origin of consciousness I read, the author made this proposition. When we seek to understand any phenomenon, we must first answer three questions. What is it? Where did it come from? And why? I have found this proposition to be incredibly useful in investigating the nature of nature, and mostly will not seek a further understanding of any phenomenon without doing my best to answer these three questions first.

So we know what it is we're talking about. Specifically female foeticide (SFF.)

Inherent in the "where" question, particularly when investigating human behavior is, when did it begin? Infanticide in general is a prehistorically old behavior, and the criteria for which babies are subject to it has nearly always had something to do with the groups survivability, or the perceived effect on survivability(e.g. demon child foeticide.)
There is on the basis of just this much a possible answer to the why question that presents its self, however, on the basis of experience I expected it to be fairly controversial, but as it appears you think I was thread jacking I'll go ahead and state it prematurely.

Might it be possible that specifically female foeticide is on the rise in India as a result of age old co-evolutionary strategies of population control?

Now you can see why I was attempting to find population figures and some information on the history of the incidence of this behavior in India. I finally did find some limited data on India's population history, and it appears to coincide with the post WWII origin of the population getting out of control.

....Time...line.............................................1950.....1995......2005
Midyear population (in thousands)...........369,880..920,585..1,090,973
Mortality
...... Life expectancy at birth (years)............60........65.......68
.......Infant mortality rate (per 1,000 births)....75........58.......42
.......Under 5 mortality rate (per 1,000 births)...109.......81.......56

Now should it turn out that we can find figures for the incidence of SFF, and it shows a significant proportional increase, I would say we have found a likely answer.

(sorry this editor does not deal well with tables)
kitten
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 10:50:11 AM
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Thank you----Epi, for the background information as it is necessary to have some information to go on whilst discussing this issue as the OP seems to only want to discuss this issue in relation to India. Perhaps, I am wrong.Think

Ludic, since you are the one asking the question there must be reason you are asking this question? I heard about this pratice in India years ago and with the new technology that came out so the mothers could tell what sex the child was whilst still in the womb, they also knew they could and did abort the female fetus or foetus if you prefer.

It is a pratice that is accepted in your country so you should provide some input into this discussion as it appears you want answers without asking the right questions.Think

After reading the other thread where some have hired help and what they thought of their hired help. I am wondering if this is why the question is being asked?

Do you want males aborted as well as the country seems content to abort the females? Is that what this is about?

I believe there is still a caste system in your country, is there not? Perhaps this has something to do with only wanting males.

I, myself, think the pratice of abortion used to select the sex you want is wrong, disgusting and immoral.Shame on you Brick wall <<<< After saying that I am pro-choice and pro-family.

I also wonder why the women have such a low opinion of themselves to abort their own sex d'oh! and why they have a higher opinion of men.Eh?

Since it is the men who determine the sex perhaps something should be done to them as there are old wives tales on what a man needs to do to produce males and females. Just a thought.

peace out, >^,,^<
ludic
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:09:42 AM

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I am sorry, Epiphileon, if I sounded like I was alleging you of threadjacking. It's just that I can be a bit fastidious when it comes to off & on topic discussions. As you can see this thread itself was started to separate the discussion on foeticide from the one on overpopulation. I imagined your question pertained to the latter, and you negligently posted it here.
Do pardon my presumptuosness.


The 3 answers you are seeking are indeed important, but I think you are going a little off-track. Any similarities in the incidences of SFF and mortality/ birth rates, IMO, will be coincidental, or very distantly related (most likely reached by confirmation and selection bias).

SFF could have historical roots: For the carrying on of a monarchy or even a tribe-chieftaincy, or to simply carry on the family surname a male heir was required.

Dowry, in the starting, I guess was a voluntary good-will parting gift from parents to their daughters, but it became a custom with time.

The two of the above led to the preferance of a male child over a female.

If we want to relate it to the survivability of population, we could reason that the families felt it was a waste of resources on a female child because she did not bring the family any returns [females weren't allowed to do any jobs outside of the house at that time].
So, to minimise resource wastage and invest in a more beneficial progeny, they started to terminate female foetuses before it came to life.
ludic
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:28:57 AM

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kitten wrote:
Thank you----Epi, for the background information as it is necessary to have some information to go on whilst discussing this issue as the OP seems to only want to discuss this issue in relation to India. Perhaps, I am wrong.Think

Yup, you're wrong. Female foeticide is widespread in most Asian countries, not just India. I'd like an all-encompassing discussion; although I feel I am no-one to decide the nature of discussion. Every poster has every right to discuss according to their will, as long as they are kind enough to remain on-topic. Angel

Ludic, since you are the one asking the question there must be reason you are asking this question? I heard about this pratice in India years ago and with the new technology that came out so the mothers could tell what sex the child was whilst still in the womb, they also knew they could and did abort the female fetus or foetus if you prefer.

I did not ask any question. I just created a separate area for discussion on this topic. Reason being the threat of digression on my previous topic on overpopulation.

It is a pratice that is accepted in your country so you should provide some input into this discussion as it appears you want answers without asking the right questions.Think

This is not a practice accepted in my country. Again, I never intended to ask any question, nor get any answers. This is not a Q & A site, is it? Tovarish was curious about this and I wanted a discussion so she could get as many views on the topic as possible. Angel

After reading the other thread where some have hired help and what they thought of their hired help. I am wondering if this is why the question is being asked?

No. No relation with that.

Do you want males aborted as well as the country seems content to abort the females? Is that what this is about?

That is a little acidic, kitten. I could be offended, if I were a lesser person. Do not pique me in relation to my country.

I believe there is still a caste system in your country, is there not? Perhaps this has something to do with only wanting males.

Caste is not much of an issue in my country now. It has been discussed on another thread, which might have slipped your notice. Caste and female-foeticide have no relation, whatsoever.

I, myself, think the pratice of abortion used to select the sex you want is wrong, disgusting and immoral.Shame on you Brick wall <<<< After saying that I am pro-choice and pro-family.

Thanks for your opinion.

I also wonder why the women have such a low opinion of themselves to abort their own sex d'oh! and why they have a higher opinion of men.Eh?

Yeah, I wonder that too. I expressed my view on this on a previous post.

Since it is the men who determine the sex perhaps something should be done to them as there are old wives tales on what a man needs to do to produce males and females. Just a thought.

hmmm...
peace out, >^,,^<
kitten
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 1:22:12 PM
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Do you want males aborted as well as the country seems content to abort the females? Is that what this is about?

That is a little acidic, kitten. I could be offended, if I were a lesser person. Do not pique me in relation to my country.


I am not trying to pique you in relation to your country. I do not think it is acidic as the title of your OP, is asking the question: "Want a boy?". I think I now know how you mean the question. But it wasn't clear to me if you wanted them aborted as well, thus my honest query of you.

The government is aware of these killings but, according to what I have read, has really done nothing to stop them, except change the dowery laws.

And I think that is very sad. Very sad. That one sex is held higher than another. Be it in any country.

Only you, and I mean the general 'you', can change how your country views females. It starts with one brave woman/couple/family and then another can see that it is wrong and then another sees that it is wrong and hopefully this old pratice will stop. Because of this mindset there are millions and millions of woman who have not been allowed to live.

peace out, >^,,^<
abcxyz
Posted: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:50:33 PM
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kitten wrote:
The government is aware of these killings but, according to what I have read, has really done nothing to stop them, except change the dowery laws.


Sex-selective abortion is illegal in India. Giving or taking paternal tests, as wiki says, has a punishment of 3 years in jail and a fine of 10000 rupees for the first offence.

Infanticide falls under the homicide section. Hiding the body after death(be it natural or otherwise) is considered culpable homicide under Indian law.
Gunjika
Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:32:41 AM
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Kitten wrote: Only you, and I mean the general 'you', can change how your country views females. It starts with one brave woman/couple/family and then another can see that it is wrong and then another sees that it is wrong and hopefully this old pratice will stop. Because of this mindset there are millions and millions of woman who have not been allowed to live.

:).. This mindset is changing, and changing fast. Sex selection has already been made illegal and this law has been strictly implemented, is successful too barring a few aberrations here and there. But such cases, if reported by aware citizens, can bring severe punishment to the perpetrators, including the cancellation of doctor's licence. This practice has already died out in educated urban classes, and its rudiments which are found in certain rural areas/less developed semi urban set-ups,are hopefully fading away too, courtesy stringent laws and better education. There are laws against other related issues like dowry and child marriages too. The change is slow but steady! Applause


EDIT: Many of the young women of my generation do not even know about this practice. Most of my young female colleagues belong to much advanced societies, have been brought up differently and in an unbiased environment. We are the loved and pampered daughters of loving parents. These tests were allowed when we were born. My birth was celebrated with distribution of 'Rasgullas' to the nursing home staff. Now, when it is our turn, even thinking about testing the gender of the unborn child is unimaginable. Had it still been legal, I would have never gone for it, because I want to keep guessing till the end and have a surprise!Dancing Dancing
michiko
Posted: Thursday, February 24, 2011 7:02:40 PM
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i never had any idea that something like this is actually happening in India, & to add the fact that it's also happening in some other parts of the world.
it's very very tragic.
how can they assume that having a daughter is bad luck for the family? those were just bended traditions of their fathers/ancestors.
kitten
Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:48:07 PM
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Whilst reading the New York Times, I found this article. It appears to be current as it is talking about the recent census.

Campaign Against Girls in India <<<<< New York Times

It seems this pratice it still wide spread and that the murdering of women pregnate with girls is okay. And that some or one was forced to abort three girls, taken their by her mother-in-law. Brick wall

This is 2011 for goodness sake and I would think the women would have acheived some sort of independence and pride in themselves. It is okay not to be married. Really.

It is nice to have a caring man about but any man who beats his wife to death because she is carrying a girl should be punished. And with tongue in cheek, I don't see why the men aren't beaten or worse as it is his sperm that decides the sex of his child. His mother should get after him not her daughter-in-law.d'oh!


This is just wrong and very upsetting. I don't understand the denial and ignorance.


peace out, >^,,^<
ludic
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:17:23 AM

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Joined: 12/7/2010
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Location: New Delhi, NCT, India
The report had been published in the Indian newspapers too, about 4 - 5 weeks back. I had wanted to put up some data and discuss but was (and am Anxious) too busy...

The most appaling revelation is that the practice is prevalent among the prosperous, educated families too! I am ashamed to admit that I came to know from my mother some days back about a distant aunt on our family tree who actually prepares some sort of medicine that her pregnant relatives take so they give birth to a boy (I don't know how that is scientifically possible, but it has worked on people) Brick wall her daughter-in-law gave birth to a boy recently... people had chided mum for not going to her when she bore girls everytime... roils me to even think about that diseased branch of family Boo hoo! ! Even some of my mum's friends - doctorates, and masters degree holders got girls aborted years back Speak to the hand .
It's a totally irrational fetish for boy, innate in a large majority of India.


sex ratio
urban - 900
rural - 946
srirr
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:04:07 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/2009
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Kitten, the report is not untrue, UNFORTUNATELY. The mindset in the urban areas is changing, however the rural India is still more or less the same. In fact, as Ludic pointed, the educated sections also follow the discrimination. Things are changing, but the pace is not fast.

@Ludic: The story of your distant aunt is just a series of coincidences. Don't you think so? Medically, the chromosomes from male and female partners mate to produce embryo, which determines the sex of the child. If the lady is already pregnant, it means the chromosomes had played their roles and the sex of the child is fixed. How can taking any medicine after this stage change the sex?
ludic
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2011 2:55:34 AM

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Location: New Delhi, NCT, India
Yes I know that stuff (I am appearing for medical entrances!)

But you must surely have heard about things like this... 'totka's and all - I am not alleging anything, but I can't help but surmise that is what it must be... I agree it's not possible medically, but so many coincidences? 3 generations of coincidenses? There are indeed occult things way beyond our scientific comprehension...
Gunjika
Posted: Friday, April 15, 2011 4:11:10 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/2011
Posts: 376
Neurons: 1,127
Location: India
It is a coincidence. I am sure she must have a ready-reckoner of excuses for failed cases too. Her daughter-in-law bore a son because she had conceived a son, and she would have delivered a son even if she had been given an antidote for her MIL's 'medicine'.

Had there been any such formula, earth would have been free of the likes of you and me, including her, long ago!

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