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ludic
Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:28:02 PM

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The United Nations has predicted the global population will reach seven billion this year, and climb to nine billion by 2050, "with almost all of the growth occurring in poor countries, particularly Africa and South Asia"


Overpopulation really distresses me, so much that when I was 6-7 years old I had publicly suggested mass bombing of the rabble who procreate insanely because they have (literally)nothing better to do in their lives (which I didn't know then) and earned gasps from the grown-ups around me.

Whenever I happen past slums, I can notice one fragile woman with two snotty nestlings on either side of her waist, two holding her hands, one child in the father's arm his other arm held by another child. And 2 children in tow, with the elder holding yet another child.
Our housemaid is 3 sisters and 3 brothers.

Why are we so helpless in containing the population growth in these sectors of society? The obvious answer would be lack of education.
But from my interaction with housemaids, pedlars etc.I have come to know the shocking reality that these people are happy to continue the family business, and willingly drop out of schools without finishing the education.
Our current housemaid is addicted to tobacco eating. I explained for one hour in gory details where this habit would lead her to. But she remains apathetic as ever. I am sure any lecture on family planning would similarly fall on deaf ears.
srirr
Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:40:22 PM

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No family planning in poor strata of society is definitely because of lack of education. A good percentage of educated class has turned to one or two child family.

The uneducated and downtrodden sections can only think of three basic requirements--fooding, clothing and shelter. Obviously these needs relate to money. More children means more earning members. Simple logic.

The other reason is their mindset and mentality. Women are subject to exploitation and entertainment only. Sex and drugs are the only entertainment and they have no means or knowledge of protection.
ludic
Posted: Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:49:44 PM

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srirr wrote:
Obviously these needs relate to money. More children means more earning members. Simple logic.


That simple logic, in my opinion, applied to the society decades ago, when more members would mean more help out in the crop fields. Today, more members only means more mouths to feed, unless they plan beforehand having their children parade on traffic signals for alms.

srirr wrote:
The other reason is their mindset and mentality. Women are subject to exploitation and entertainment only. Sex and drugs are the only entertainment and they have no means or knowledge of protection.


That is exactly what I meant when I said they have nothing better to do in their lives.
wercozy
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 12:16:28 AM
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Are we ready to accept tit for tat yet? In other words, "You want food, clothing, shelter? Get your fertile Myrtle tubes tied. That goes for the Don Juan's and child rapists too.

There are millions of men in the US drugging girls as young as 12 for non resistant sex. What do these men think will result from a forced pregnancy?

You may not want to open this:

http://www.scielo.br/img/revistas/spmj/v121n4/a08f02.jpg

This is true, I'm not joking around.
Rusty
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 2:28:13 AM
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Well one of the reasons we can't force population control is that we live in a democracy. Take China for example, they don't have to worry about votes. Just point out one leader that openly advises population control. None does. Fanatics point to religion as soon as you mention the topic and you lose votes instantly. Sometimes I feel there should be some limit to freedom. Lack of education also plays a role. Srirr is right more children mean more earnings, and its still relevant in todays times.
abcxyz
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 2:31:32 AM
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ludic wrote:

But from my interaction with housemaids, pedlars etc.I have come to know the shocking reality that these people are happy to continue the family business, and willingly drop out of schools without finishing the education.


That's a bit odd. I have not come across a single maid who didn't complain of having experienced abuse and negligence during childhood. None of them are ever, naturally, happy being a housemaid. Some of them hated school but hell, so did I.

Lack of education is a major factor, I agree. But given we have 77% of our population earning below 20 rupees a day and a government that has made little progress in the health and education sector, what do we expect? Most, if not all of these now overpopulated countries were colonies which got independence but no money in the national treasury. So they borrowed heavily for which they are still paying huge interests. Many of these countries have corrupt leaders who preferred cutting down on education and health budgets than taxing the rich corporates to get more money. Result: little birth control, social stigma around sterilization, desire for a male child, husband domination, household rape, minor marriage, what have you.

As for having more children meaning more mouths to feed, in most cases husbands are the ones who force the wives. In Indian society husbands are placed above everyone else in the familySick . If the husband is earning, he'd spend most of the money for his food, clothes and hooch. If anything is left only then the wife and the children will get to eat. If the wife is earning too, he'd beat up his wife and take her money. So the husband has no problem reproducing more and more. If the wife gets sterilized, there are society and religion to screw her. The husband will get an excuse to dump her with her 5 children and get another wife. She and the children will be on the street because her parents/brothers wouldn't take her in either.

When our 28-year-old maid joined us, she couldn't read or write. My mother taught her to read and write and I got her admitted to an evening school. Now she is not only a good reader, she has started writing poems. She's in her 2nd grade now.
tashudee
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 2:46:09 AM
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And in India especially, in those places where the marriages are never complete(infact marriages never take place!!) without earning a huge sum of money from the Bride's side (Dowry system), people tend to produce more children in the want to get a baby boy! Finally they tend to end up with more girls often! The girls are then married off at a very young age(Child marriage)!! They again repeat the same WANT and this continues!!!
Eduacation would but play a very important role in controlling the population growth.
ellana
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:06:25 AM
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I don't like to see finger pointing at the manual labourers in our respective lives. For the greater part, these jobs are not chosen but imposed through lack of education, lack of opportunity, lack of good governance and centuries of oppression and marginalisation. Each country has its own cultural history that has set the stage for today's population issues with countries like India and China at the top of the list in terms of numbers. Now we have economic migration to 'developed' countries and we in turn do a good job of marginalising these people. And let's not forget male dominance in most societies where females are on the lower rungs of social order and they in turn are the bearers of multiple children that they cannot feed. Economic and social disparity in both developed and developing countries contributes heavily to the 'have nots'. The marginalised are awakening as we witness daily on the news, calling for social justice and an end to oppressive regimes that have abused power as well as their countries' coffers and resources. Shame on them!
michiko
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:55:10 AM
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gosh it's pretty frightening coz 2050 is just 40yrs away from now!
sowmyaforever
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 4:00:40 AM
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I see two discussions here:
1. Over population in India
2. Male advantage on female for sex all over the world
As for the second topic, bad men/women are there all over the world. Still people choose to migrate to a non-(south)Asian country.
Over population in India - I more or less agree with ludic. Even I have felt that there is a large number of useless humans, contributing only in numbers to the population, in India. I have felt the similar urge within me, to bomb a heavy population. But, I have shuddered on the thought that, what if one of my good friends is among them Anxious
India has so many dis-advantages. Its politicians are its major curse. Poverty, lack of good educational systems, second grade technology, poor hygiene and many more to add on. We have hoped in vain that, by means of democracy we have delegated these responsibilities to politicians and that they would bring a change. But it has taken us 64 long years to understand that these very politicians are only parasites (in positions for utterly selfish purposes). Still how many of us can really expect an outburst to knock off all of these selfish politicians and bring about a political, economical, social change in India (similar to what happened in Egypt?) Brick wall
I would like to quote my personal experiance here. I am interested in social activities. I went about preaching the basic need to vote rationally. But, an engineer from my own class (good education given, technically), wanted to vote for a candidate only because, it is their family tradition to vote for that person. What can I argue here? When I see men, so educated, behaving as equally as a slum based uneducated person, how can I guarentee, Indian education system can bring about a change in population awareness? I have also been made to believe in certain situations that the educated shrimps are more rigid to be convinced of the reality to bring about a change in India.
I have miserably failed in teaching people what is right. I have consequently been among the complaining group that talks a lot but does nothing. Now, I have decided that, I will do the right thing and just keep doing it. I will neither teach nor complain Silenced
pedro
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 4:13:17 AM
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I can remember in an idle moment calculating how small a space you could cram the entire population of the world into (with no gaps). It was surprisingly small, about a cubic mile or just a little more (I think I had nothing better to do in my life at the time).
ludic
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:28:25 AM

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It would take a lot larger space now, pedro seeing the rate at which our population has grown.

@sowmya: Egypt changed from virtually an autocracy to democracy. India has been a large, functioning democracy since her independence. I simply can't see an escape from this catacomb. The politicians: 1/3 of them uneducated, 1/3 educated but corrupt by power, 1/3 educated, but unable to bring about a change because of convulated politics.

@Rusty: I can't see what problem even religious fanatics could have with population-control. No religion dictates that 'every family have not less than five children'. I think in our country, there are more demanding problems such as the scandles that have come to light recently to address which keep us from turning to the more enormous but background problem such as overpopulation.

@tashudee: Totally agree on the cause of reckless reproduction being the want of a boy. I think we should discuss this on a new thread. It sure is a reprehensible scene.

@abcxyz: As odd as it sounds, it is true. This woman and her children were really happy selling wares in the sun all day or going door-to-door, eating a variety of food for lunch everyday at the thelas/ gumtis for 10rupees and pack-up in the evening, load the wares in an auto, and head home. The woman had sent her children to school, but they found that life to be lacking in all the fun they had out in the open world, on the streets, selling wares.
This is 100% true.

I deeply feel, from my experience and observation that the lower strata, of at least India, is resistant to any change education can bring about.


Parents would rather have their 8 year old boys clean cars and do gardening and earn, than waste money in schools (that when the government schools charge an insubstantial fee), when they can see no (because they are short-sighted) future pursuing education.

Parents would rather have their young daughters stay at home and look after their younger siblings while the mother is out doing chores. These girls can later grow up and join the housemaid business (and some other businesses we very well know some families have no problem allowing their daughters join).

Out of 10, you'll hardly find one family where children willingly go, and are wilingly sent to school, and those children would be boys, because girls would grow up and marry anyway, so what's the point in studying if she can't put it to use (again, they don't see how education can have a practical effect on their lives).

The main mentality behind having the children work and not be educated, I think is the job insecurity they feel.
I maintain that 'where there is a will, there is a way'. If the child is really willing to study, and take up a profession, he will certainly succeed. If nothing, even the job of a clerk would be more respectable than that of a thela-wallah.

This all is even more inveterate because of the fact that they have long inured to the lives they live, and any change would be troublesome. They'll do menial jobs in the morning and enjoy in the streets all afternoon with their peers, frolicking on blaring music from a second-hand radio than lucubrate and wear away studying.

Now with the rabble so resisting education themselves, how can we expect their upliftment, which itself can only be brought about through education?


From a distance it is easy to point to the corruption and unwieldy governance, but on a closer examination, it's these poor people that we care for so much all the time that are to blame. If they had wanted to be uplifted, I could challenge the most corrupt government to impede their progress.

What you and your mother did, abcxyz, for your maid is, indeed, noble. But most maids would not have spent extra time at my place trying to study when they had 4 more houses left to work at.
The violence you described is existant, but not in all households.
Our previous maid had a very happy household. Her husband was a ricksha-wallah, who dropped her and her 2 eldest daughters to work everyday. This maid's brother was our driver, and lived with her family. She had another daughter, who also worked as a housemaid, already married. One son, who went to school, and one little daughter, who stayed at home. Despite everything, they were, not by any means, unhappy with their state of affairs.

Similarly, our current maid works in 2 houses, her sister in 3 and mother stays at home (too old to work now.) Father works in vegetable market(not a vendor, though).

I kept on at her for more than 2 weeks about her tobacco addiction, to no avail. I am completely disillusioned now that they even want to learn anything and change.



Is anyone even going to read this Think ? Sorry, this was after the strictest editing, guys!
tashudee
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:33:33 AM
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@ludic...well , I am surely going through it!...:)
ludic
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:37:18 AM

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@tashudee :)
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 6:07:03 AM

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Wercozy,
this thread is of overpopulation in the world, not of your ill behaving friends in your neighbourhood.
abcxyz
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:15:44 AM
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Quote:
From a distance it is easy to point to the corruption and unwieldy governance, but on a closer examination, it's these poor people that we care for so much all the time that are to blame. If they had wanted to be uplifted, I could challenge the most corrupt government to impede their progress.


I do not imply that the economically backward are all gearing to be Vidyasagar who, if only given the opportunity, will make the most of it. True, there are people among them who think educating a girl is a waste of money since the girl will be married off eventually and there are shortsighted people among the economically disadvantaged, but in many cases the level of education up to which they can afford really does not change their lives much. School is almost free, but books, copies, pens, pencils, erasers, geometry boxes etc. are not free. A family with a monthly income of 2000 rupees will find it hard to afford these. Now, consider the returns. These free government schools have extremely abusive teachers. Plenty of news reports on children whom their teachers killed or scarred for life are there. These schools treat their students like scum. The standard of education these students get at their schools is unimaginably low. The teachers don't care, ruffian type students bully the meek types(I know this happens at private schools too, but with complete disregard on the teachers' side, it gets much worse in govt schools). Students get turned off school forever.The high drop-out rate is not solely the fault of the lower strata. Unlike the parents in middle class households, these children's parents are working 6am to 9pm so there's no one to tell these kids to study. I never studied as a kid unless I was forced to, then how can I expect these kids to think like an adult?

The lack of care from teachers and parents and the inability to afford good books and tuitions, these students find themselves struggling with studies. Many of them get stuck in the 10th grade for years. They give up or their parents decide it would be a waste of money to continue with the child's education. What job will they ever get with a 10th grade education except the ones they're doing now? There are millions of unemployed in India. A few days ago it was on the newspaper that for a post of a librarian with 8000 rupees salary there were many applications from even postgraduates. Being a clerk is not as easy as you think.

Many poor people do try to give their children as much education as they can afford. Every year after the results are out we read on the newspaper about the child of a rickshaw puller or a daily wage worker who is among the toppers of JEE or board exams. These students and their parents cut down on their humblest of entertainment and desires and even food consumption which was already little.

I can tell you that I didn't have more determination for education than a slum-dweller child who had to be dragged to school. Yet I got education and he didn't. Why do we expect poor children to grow up before their age and understand their situation while forgetting what we did when we were kids? All of us could become better if we put in that required effort. For anyone to have a strong will is hard, and for the poor to find a way is even harder and comes at the cost of every little entertainment they have.

If you think your inability to get your maid off tobacco is enough reason to conclude that the poor do not want to learn anything and change themselves, try to get a smoker with a PhD degree off cigarette. I'm sure you'll find him/her unwilling to learn and change too.

P.S Our maid works full time at our house, so yes, it's different in our case.
abcxyz
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:18:23 AM
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ludic wrote:
Is anyone even going to read this Think ? Sorry, this was after the strictest editing, guys!


After my post, or should I say pooooooooost, I feel for you.
wercozy
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:48:01 AM
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Pedro, planet Earth has a total surface area of close to 197,000,000 (million) square miles. The total population of the world is close to 7,000,000,000 (billion). When I did my figures, the amount of land for every man, woman, and child was about one acre. I figured most people would not be willing to live at the poles, live in the desert, live on top of mountains, or live on the ocean, so the total amount of land dwindles down to an average city block. This city block would need to provide the person with enough raw materials to maintain shelter, provide food, and fresh clean water. IMPOSSIBLE!

Now, add 2 billion more people, more desert, no forests, less land due to rising ocean levels and you get to occupy a square yard -- yippee!
pedro
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 10:22:32 AM
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Justa s David Cameron had a strikingly good idea of keeping the UK population at 90 million (presumably by culling at regular intervals), I thought we might do the same globally (think 'BIG IDEA') so I was trying to find somewhere to park the bodies. Given the fact that the population has increased and people are getting bigger probably around 8-10 cubic miles would be needed. I expect there would be WHO regulations to consider and some universally agreed fair system to select the survivors but then we would have a second chance!

More seriously, the arguments against Malthus's vision seem to be weaker now. Yes we can provide enough food (but not distribute it to those who need it) but no, we won't survive unless we can find a way to live without fossil fuels- digging up Antarctica will only prolong the agony.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 10:39:07 AM

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Wer,
I can accommodate you in our cellar with potatoes and onions.
ludic
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 4:40:58 PM

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I think, abcxyz, that you are unaware of the fact that the government provides shoes, bags, stationary etc. on enrolment to a govt. school to the people below the poverty line. To girl students, they give an extra allowance of 500 or so rupees/ month. This I know, again from a maid whose girl studied in a Govt. school. But at the same time, I accede that they need certificates and all and the process is somewhat convulated, and the impoverished don't care to go through much trouble when their primary concern is providing for food and shelter for the day; another thing is they don't have awareness enough to even know what policies Govt. runs for them.

The poor who do go through all the process and get enrolled go to school once in a blue moon not to study, but to collect the items government earmarks for them.
Again, as you said, the parents don't have time to circumspect and decide the best for their children. Lack of any motivation for going to school can largely be ascribed to lack of any constructive communication whatsoever between the children and parents.

I concede that the level of education is not all that good, but well, something is better that nothing. About the beastly teachers, I think the only way out is for the upper citizens like you and me to volunteer, join NGOs, visit the slums every week or so, and interact, and teach.

There are, indeed, remarkable students and parents from this strata who go through hellish hardships, and achieve goals the middle and upper class students aspire for. Hats off to them; but again, despite my sympathy for their sacrifices, I repeat, as callous as it sounds, this is only what is expected from them. No one can help them but they themselves. We pay taxes, which go into govt. funds for these people, some of us go a step further and volunteer to interact, educate them, what else can we do on our part? In the end their upliftment is entirely up to them, and of course, the govt.

I get your point that just because my efforts to get my maid off tobacco were fruitless does not mean they don't want to learn and change. Addiction is hard to get over for anyone.
What i'm suggesting is that just like this girl addicted to tobacco is impervious to a change, so is the rout, set in their ways of living and multiplying to the idea of 2 kids per family.
Maybe the analogy doesn't hold much water, but it gets the point across.

The problem that is most protrusive is that all this volunteering to spread awareness and education, which they resist (for understandable reasons) and waiting for them to come to senses is bound to take a month of sundays. It took at least 5 decades for women to come out of homes and go to schools, actively participate in the mainstream.

I can't see this approach warding the fate that is predicted for the earth in 40 years.


pedro, could you please share with us what approach you mentioned was adopted to keep U.K's population constant at 90 million?
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:21:56 PM

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Finland is one third bigger than UK in area. We have slightly over five million people here in a welfare state. I think we could afford at least twice as much folks. The hard climate is not the main thing. Some Finns won't tolerate foreigners but that's their problem since most of the people here welcome whoever are crazy enough to immigrate to this country far beyond nowhere.

Of the similar climate countries (maybe a bit harder) or areas: Alaska is five times the area of Finland and there are only 700 000 inhabitants.
Cat
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 6:09:03 PM

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I think investing in the warm clothing business is in the future.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 6:18:02 PM

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Cat,
that was a warm thought!
Tovarish
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 7:34:52 PM
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On the ABC yesterday a report from India, that there are 600,000 female foetuses aborted each year.

Foetuside,an ultrasound followed by a very cheap abortion tablet.

The report went on to say the practise has been happening for some time, creating an imbalance in available women for marriage.

Can our Indian posters shed any light on this report, is it factual?
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:44:10 AM

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sure, Tov, but on a separate thread. This is a vast issue itself.
wercozy
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:59:01 AM
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Tov, fetus' are culled in India and China. This may be the only salvation for the human race. Women may actually become valued some day. Imagine that! I think that for every girl culled, a boy should be culled too. There's going to be an awful lot of angry men on the planet soon as they reach the age of mating. Gangs of men will be ripping the arms and legs off of valuable women.
Gunjika
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:03:16 AM
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Ludic: I deeply feel, from my experience and observation that the lower strata, of at least India, is resistant to any change education can bring about.
The main mentality behind having the children work and not be educated, I think is the job insecurity they feel.


It would not have been so resistant to education had it also got the right opportunities and seen the fruit of education. Lord Krishna preached that one should do their ‘Karma’ and not worry about the fruit, but not much ‘Karma’ can be achieved on empty stomach. (Bhukhe Bhajan Na Hoye Gopala, pehle pet pooja fir kaam dooja!)Shame on you

Ludic: This all is even more inveterate because of the fact that they have long inured to the lives they live, and any change would be troublesome.

It might be much more troublesome to some of us who enjoy their cheap services. We are to be blamed for this unwillingness, which is because we know that once they get educated, they won’t work as housemaids and servants, and even if they do, they will come at a higher price. That makes higher society uncomfortable. It is human nature to always want to hold the power and position for oneself, and not wanting others to reach any higher. So, we let them live like they are! Shhh My family farms earlier employed daily wagers, but with changing times, those daily wagers became educated and moved on to greener pastures. Now the ones which are left are so dear that hiring threshers and harvesters is cheaper and is extensively in practice now. Domestic help is not so easily available in West where education and opportunities are in plenty.


Ludic: From a distance it is easy to point to the corruption and unwieldy governance, but on a closer examination, it's these poor people that we care for so much all the time that are to blame. If they had wanted to be uplifted, I could challenge the most corrupt government to impede their progress.
+
abcxyz : I never studied as a kid unless I was forced to, I can tell you that I didn't have more determination for education than a slum-dweller child who had to be dragged to school. Yet I got education and he didn't.

Only few people really live actively taking control of their life. Most of us live passively, like driftwood in a river, merely going with the flow. They can be educated and have a good life, only if it comes naturally, they do not fight for it (rather forced by someone else like parents, peers). Abcxyz, you could study because someone wanted you to. A slum dweller’s life is too busy in gathering food to be bothered by pushing his child to school daily. Harshness of life makes one more passive, and when they see nothing really coming out of their efforts, they just lose the zeal. Otherwise who doesn’t want to live a better life?? Obviously, they need someone else to push them too. Not 5-10 people, not for 5-10 months, it takes a lot more than that. It must be our responsibility because it is us who are bothered.



Ludic:
I concede that the level of education is not all that good, but well, something is better that nothing. About the beastly teachers, I think the only way out is for the upper citizens like you and me to volunteer, join NGOs, visit the slums every week or so, and interact, and teach.
What you and your mother did, abcxyz, for your maid is, indeed, noble


Kudos!Applause Applause

Winds of change are here; our size demands time and space!Angel

ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:18:32 AM

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No! why "our responsibility because it's we who are bothered"! In the end they are going to suffering the same fate as us, and the fault will be all theirs not ours.

So, what do we do? Waiting for awareness to dawn is by no means a solution. It can never be achieved in the near future. The world is running out of time.
They should simply be put in jail who have more mouths in their dwellings than they can afford to feed. [Yeah, I know that sounds too radical, but I am at the end of my tether, now.]


It sure would be a little trouble for us without cheap [not so cheap, let me tell you, ours works at 1600+/ month] domestic helps, but we can survive without them. We in no way hinder their upliftment. You make the general people sound like villains here, Gunjika.
What are we supposed to do? Lay off any domestic helps so that the only source of income they have is also barred? You think that would be a world of encouragement for them?

If anyone is to blame, it is the poor people's apathy towards education. I still maintain that.
Abcxyz and you give very cogent excuses for that apathy, but what is the solution?
Gunjika
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:41:55 AM
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A body functions well when all the organs function well together! :)
tashudee
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 3:09:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/2/2011
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Location: INDIA
ludic wrote:
No! why "our responsibility because it's we who are bothered"! In the end they are going to suffering the same fate as us, and the fault will be all theirs not ours.

So, what do we do? Waiting for awareness to dawn is by no means a solution. It can never be achieved in the near future. The world is running out of time.
They should simply be put in jail who have more mouths in their dwellings than they can afford to feed. [Yeah, I know that sounds too radical, but I am at the end of my tether, now.]


It sure would be a little trouble for us without cheap [not so cheap, let me tell you, ours works at 1600+/ month] domestic helps, but we can survive without them. We in no way hinder their upliftment. You make the general people sound like villains here, Gunjika.
What are we supposed to do? Lay off any domestic helps so that the only source of income they have is also barred? You think that would be a world of encouragement for them?


If anyone is to blame, it is the poor people's apathy towards education. I still maintain that.
Abcxyz and you give very cogent excuses for that apathy, but what is the solution?



So how would you expect the poor people to NOT to have this apathy towards education?! Of course, there should be a start for everything! Until and unless one starts, nothings going to come up! Nothings going to change the fate! Carry your responsibility on your shoulders! Why can't we people who are having a lot of discussions on this just try to create population awareness and make the poor understand? ( I just wish its easier to do than say!...sigh!)...but theres always a HOPE! We can try!
abcxyz
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:12:01 AM
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Joined: 11/13/2009
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Ludic, WB govt does not provide free shoes, bags, stationery, or monthly stipend to girl students so I did a search on it which revealed that some states do give monthly stipend to girl children living BPL, the amount varies from Rs.50-150. I did not find anything about stationery, shoes or bags, so it seems your maid's school gives those from the school fund or has connection with some charity organisation that provides these stuff. Free state board books are given to female BPL students up to 8th grade. Now, these are good but the problem is until recently, BPL amounted to only 20% of the population. The BPL line used to be at 12 rupees a day for rural citizens and 18 rupees a day for urban citizens. Post Tendulkar commission the line has been reset at 13 and 19 rupees a day for rural and urban citizens respectively, and the number of people living BPL has shot up to 40%. Since BPL and APL are the ONLY two economic division in India, in most schemes there is nothing for the (80-40)% people(previously (80-20)%) who are living in dire conditions. Besides, most people aren't aware of their rights and do not know where to complain if their rights are denied. Once my mother tried to lodge a complaint against tree felling in our area and she was directed to like 5 different govt organization until finally directed to where she went first and they reluctantly took her complaint. If that's how public servants treat us, it's obvious how they treat the poor. After all this harassment, most people would realise the truth that their complaint wouldn't be acted upon. Now these are uneducated illiterate people we're talking about. If the govt doesn't let them know of their rights, who will? Govt can eat up spaces with advertisement of how good they treat people, yet they can't put up a board in govt schools and organizations with important rights of people written on it?

Quote:
The poor who do go through all the process and get enrolled go to school once in a blue moon not to study, but to collect the items government earmarks for them.
Again, as you said, the parents don't have time to circumspect and decide the best for their children. Lack of any motivation for going to school can largely be ascribed to lack of any constructive communication whatsoever between the children and parents.


Maybe some poor. Not all. You're missing the whole picture if you don't look at the extreme poverty that forces them to do it. The 'constructive communication' as you put it is pretty hard to listen to if you're a kid. As I previously said, somebody needs to keep watch on a child to make sure s/he's studying and poor people can't afford it.

Quote:
I concede that the level of education is not all that good, but well, something is better that nothing. About the beastly teachers, I think the only way out is for the upper citizens like you and me to volunteer, join NGOs, visit the slums every week or so, and interact, and teach.


Since the level of education almost ensures that they'll be outperformed everywhere they go, yes it does matter a lot. 'Not all that good' is an euphemism for pathetic. You sound like they should be obliged that the govt is actually giving them a shot at education, however poor that may be.

Quote:
There are, indeed, remarkable students and parents from this strata who go through hellish hardships, and achieve goals the middle and upper class students aspire for. Hats off to them; but again, despite my sympathy for their sacrifices, I repeat, as callous as it sounds, this is only what is expected from them. No one can help them but they themselves. We pay taxes, which go into govt. funds for these people, some of us go a step further and volunteer to interact, educate them, what else can we do on our part? In the end their upliftment is entirely up to them, and of course, the govt.

The least we can do is acknowledge that the society is unfair to them and stop putting the blame solely on them for their misfortune. It's but for the grace of god we're not picking trash or washing dishes in somebody's home. If you're expecting a poor child to sacrifice his childhood and happiness and work hard like an animal, how much expectation do you have from the upper class people like you and I and how many of us fulfill that expectation? Among the poor there are people who are not intelligent, not healthy enough to work too hard, malnutritious, mentally retarded, cripple, blind, who really cannot make it without help. What about them?

Quote:
The problem that is most protrusive is that all this volunteering to spread awareness and education, which they resist (for understandable reasons) and waiting for them to come to senses is bound to take a month of sundays.


Your reasoning sounds like since all these noble people are coming out to help they should give their all to do whatever they say and be eternally thankful to them. Little has been done to offer these people real help. These are humans we're talking about with the need for entertainment.

Quote:
If anyone is to blame, it is the poor people's apathy towards education. I still maintain that.
Abcxyz and you give very cogent excuses for that apathy, but what is the solution?

The solution, I'd suggest, to make an equitable salary distribution. A peon or a labourer should get much more than 5000 per month, and a bureaucrat or a bank manager should get much less than 100000 per month. I think a lot of our tax money is wasted on bureaucrats, they get houses, cars, electricity for free along with plenty of allowances. What's the point of paying them so much? Lecturers do not need as much as they're paid now. A lot more jobs can be created if the system is revamped. For starter, pass the damn Lokpal bill, and then start with the rest of the system and the constitution. If we manage to eliminate poverty and corruption to a considerable extent, things will start shaping themselves. Elevating the standard of govt schools with better teachers and infrastructure, building new schools and special schools, training institutions, govt hospitals, health awareness, rights awareness, confiscation of black money etc. should start immediately.
ludic
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:19:10 AM

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=>actually, I didn't even know about BPL. This particular maid I cited worked at our place in Delhi, and I'm sure she got all those amenities from school, the source, as you said, might not have been the Govt. funds, though.


=> when I said lack of constructive communication, I thought that the reason being parents too busy earning a few pennies a day was understood.

=> I strongly agree that the Govt. should be more proactive, making the poor aware of their rights, just the way you said.

=> I studied high school in a central Govt. school myself and the level of education was far from pathetic. But I know state owned schools are much worse, and them being in remote villages - yes, I get the idea.

=> I acknowledge not everyone is sensitive to their misfortune, and they are not responsible of bringing it upon themselves in any way. However, the point I've been vehemently trying to make is that it is solely upto them and the Govt. to work their way out of it.
Meanwhile, what do we do? Sit and fret over overpopulation, or don't do even that?

I do not extrapolate the expectation I have from the poor youth to us, the reason being they have something terribly compelling to overcome, we have issues too, but not so urgent. I know this statement presents me in a very bad light. But that's how it is. I certainly expect much, much more assiduity and foresight from the poor youth than from us. Irrational? maybe. What about the disabled-in-someway-or-the-other children among them, you ask. I don't know, and it vexes me.

=> Maybe my reasoning does sound a little haughty, but it is still true that this spreading of awareness and education will take a lot of time.

=>As for your suggestions, I couldn't agree more with each of them Applause . We as the common citizens, though, can only pay taxes and do our duties at work honestly.


I can see myself joining polictics as soon as I am 25, so I could contribute more Pray

abcxyz
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:00:16 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 11/13/2009
Posts: 1,056
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When I said govt schools, I meant municipality schools. Majority of govt school students aren't poor and schemes like mid-day meal etc. aren't available in govt schools. Sorry for the wrong word.
I cannot honestly blame the middle and upper class people who are doing their job honestly and paying their share of taxes because everyone has the right to be happy without engaging in wrongdoing. It is some people who are not doing their job right that are the problem. If we really want to do something to curb the population, we have to start with the system by writing petitions, proposing reforms and bills, engaging in politics and activism, being an honest bureaucrat, spreading awareness and setting up funds etc.
On the radical side, I personally think sterilizing everyone after their first childbirth would be nice, but that may give rise to the tendency of not going to hospital at the time of labour.
Rusty
Posted: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:59:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/2011
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Hmm this thread has grown considerably since I last came. The thread seems to be dying for good but i would just add a couple of things.
About religious fanatics, a progressive branch of Muslim League made a suggestion 2-3 years ago that the muslims should try birth control and strengthen Islam by educating their children and giving them better opportunities with professional education. The very next day the statement was opposed by the more conservative branch of the Muslim league, and in the interview I saw, the cleric claimed that it was 'extremely' un-islamic to suggest birth control as it is clearly stated that muslims should strengthen Islam through numbers.

Many christians would refuse birth control for religious reasons.

Pravin Togadia(a hindu leader) has openly warned Hindus against birth control lest they shall become minority 'in their own country'.

I agree with most things Ludic has to say, including that people from lower strata resist education. My aunt teaches in a municipal school and she says that the only reason that most people in the village send their children is because of the mid day meal.
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