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Perceptions, opinions and *seemingly* pointless questions :) Options
ludic
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:01:49 AM

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Do you see any difference between mind and brain?

Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?

How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?

Spirituals and non-spirituals, religious and non-religious, atheists and agnostics : please everyone share your opinions.

Angel
noorfr
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:39:05 AM

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i couldn't get the question. what you exactly wanna know???
or you want everybody to follow their own perception of this question...
GreenSleeves
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:28:29 AM
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ludic wrote:
Do you see any difference between mind and brain?

Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?

How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?

Spirituals and non-spirituals, religious and non-religious, atheists and agnostics : please everyone share your opinions.


Angel
-I would say Yes to your 3 Questions. For the first one it is; yes very much.
What is on my mind sometimes bothers my brain!

The second; i have an Alter-Ego. An ''Alter-Ego'' means, Exactly, the same as Me!

The third; because a great scientific mindset is also spiritual.
ludic
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:31:22 AM

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@noor - latter.


@Green - thanks for responding, but can you please elaborate a little more? I would like to understand in more detail. :)
GreenSleeves
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:33:50 AM
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noorfr wrote:
i couldn't get the question. what you exactly wanna know???
or you want everybody to follow their own perception of this question...

- Life itself, is based on ones own perception. No two minds can have the same.
GreenSleeves
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:59:16 AM
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ludic wrote:
@noor - latter.


@Green - thanks for responding, but can you please elaborate a little more? I would like to understand in more detail. :)

-What can be on my mind can be anything that is happening, or has happened in the past, or that can happen with-in the very Laws of the Human-Condition, which my brain does favor nor equates or accept.

A great scientist mind is not a machine void of spirituality.
worldsclyde
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:09:17 AM
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A brain is a physical organ of our body. A mind can't be proven to exist at all.
srirr
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:26:20 AM

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ludic wrote:
Do you see any difference between mind and brain?


WC said it. Brain is a physical thing which everybody has. They may not have a mind.

ludic wrote:
Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?


Your self is noun, yourself is pronoun.

ludic wrote:
How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?


Spirit will do, why should I bother?
wercozy
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:01:08 AM
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The brain is just the anatomical structure of the organ, the mind is consciousness and thought.

Do you mean like me, myself, and I? No, there is no difference. We are one. A trinity.

My left sided math and science brain is completely different from my right sided musical, emotional, and spiritual brain. I choose to allow my left upper brain to superpose over my right lower brain. I hate being emotional. I enjoy playing the piano, but it isn't what I want to do every day. Spirituality feels nice when it's unexpected, but I don't live for it. All my bling, zing, and grove comes from my left brain.

I'm a weakly spiritual Atheist.
Jeech
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:45:44 AM
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wercozy wrote:
Do you mean like me, myself, and I? No, there is no difference. We are one. A trinity.



Perfect!!
Jeech
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:48:08 AM
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GreenSleeves wrote:
The third; because a great scientific mindset is also spiritual.


Beautiful!!
Jeech
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:52:13 AM
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srirr wrote:


WC said it. Brain is a physical thing which everybody has. They may not have a mind.



Brainy!!
noorfr
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:25:59 AM

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ludic wrote:
Do you see any difference between mind and brain?

difference!!! well. don’t know. brain is my laptop and mind is ms windows. one is hardware n the other is software n both are incomplete without each other.

ludic wrote:
Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?

i n my self. i’m god (aham brahmasi) n my self is the slave.

ludic wrote:
How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?

if someone is not spiritual, that one cannot understand the actual meaning of this universe, thus cannot know science. n without knowing the science, i don’t think its possible to understand spirituality.

ludic wrote:
Spirituals and non-spirituals, religious and non-religious, atheists and agnostics : please everyone share your opinions.
Angel

spirituals and non-spirituals… if someone knows to spend a peaceful life n generate a positive atmosphere in surrounding human beings is spiritual. and the one who thinks all the solutions lie in quarrels knows nothing about spirituality.
religious and non-religious… follower of the nature’s call is religious. that’s the only religion or following every demand of nature is religion. anybody who comes out the womb of a mother n dies without any question is religious n i don’t know any nonreligious person.
atheists and agnostics… these are the terms developed by us to call others. we don’t like to use any of it for our own selves. we’ve succeeded in developing several divisions between i and you. still they’re not enough n we keep on finding new ones everyday.

these are all my own perceptions only. there’s nothing in general.
noorfr
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:32:48 AM

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GreenSleeves wrote:
noorfr wrote:
i couldn't get question...

- Life itself, is based on ones own perception. No two minds can have the same.


yes GreenSleeves. i agree. thank you.
GreenSleeves
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:09:07 PM
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noorfr wrote:
GreenSleeves wrote:
noorfr wrote:
i couldn't get question...

- Life itself, is based on ones own perception. No two minds can have the same.


yes GreenSleeves. i agree. thank you.


Angel I appreciate.
GreenSleeves
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:26:32 PM
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wercozy wrote:
The brain is just the anatomical structure of the organ, the mind is consciousness and thought.

Do you mean like me, myself, and I? No, there is no difference. We are one. A trinity.

My left sided math and science brain is completely different from my right sided musical, emotional, and spiritual brain. I choose to allow my left upper brain to superpose over my right lower brain. I hate being emotional. I enjoy playing the piano, but it isn't what I want to do every day. Spirituality feels nice when it's unexpected, but I don't live for it. All my bling, zing, and grove comes from my left brain.

I'm a weakly spiritual Atheist.

-Love!Angel Between a woman and a man, includes, Spirituality and Physical Passion, or is not!
(that is not a dictate, it is only my own perception of Love).
abcxyz
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:20:01 PM
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ludic wrote:
Do you see any difference between mind and brain?

Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?

How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?

Spirituals and non-spirituals, religious and non-religious, atheists and agnostics : please everyone share your opinions.

Angel


1. Brain is the organ. Mind is the way it operates.
2. My self seems to mean my actions and my body. Myself, on the other hand, seems a bit more physical action-centric. But I think my opinions will differ significantly from the native speakers because I am not always able to catch the nuances of this language.
3. I am not sure what spiritual mindset means. So many people use the word 'spiritual' to mean so many things that I get confused whenever the word is used. My beliefs do not contradict one another.
wercozy
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 6:18:53 PM
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Jeech, did you just have an epiphany? Kinda sounds like you did. Isn't it great?

abcxyz, my scientific understanding came about through years of training, education, and practice. My spiritual awareness is natural. Many people cannot define spirituality, so you are not alone in being confused. Religions around the world strip people of their natural awareness, and feelings toward spirituality as they are indoctrinated to pay close attention to dogma, rigid rules, and various prejudices. Hope this helps.
ludic
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:49:53 PM

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Thanks everyone for answering. Angel
ludic
Posted: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:57:22 PM

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@all the spirituals :

Can you please tell us more about what spirituality is to you?
I guess the belief set must vary from individual to individual amongst spirituals too...
noorfr
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 1:04:00 AM

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ludic wrote:
@all the spirituals : Can you please tell us more about what spirituality is to you?...


i've already put it here what spirituality, for me, is.

and according to my own definition, i'm nowhere close to it. n only (so called) spirituals are authorised to comment here {@all the spirituals }, thus i'm out of it.
wercozy
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:43:39 AM
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My spiritual experiences are all natural so I just wait for them to happen and I don't try to push it along.

Sometimes it's unexpected, and I become emotional and teary eyed.

noorfr, "I'm nowhere close to it." Some folks never get to experience something spiritual because they are probably in a state of evolution that is causing them to lose the need for it. Or you may not have a spiritual center because of disease, injury or defect.

I used to feel a tremendous love for Jesus Christ when I was 6 years old. Then I developed a bad case of German Measles and a high fever when I was 6. I lost 2 weeks of school and wasn't even aware of time. When I was well enough to leave my room I saw a picture of Jesus. I knew his face, but I forgot his name. I knew I felt a love for the man, but the feeling was gone, and I never got it back. Christian school became difficult, and I became defiant. All that remains of spirituality is the sudden jolt that something is awesome, and I had better pay attention.

Isn't it odd that a person should suffer ridicule, and hatred over something that cannot be helped
ludic
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:12:58 AM

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wercozy,
Thanks for sharing something so deep with us. I can relate to what you are saying. Religions are but symbols that make the experience of spirituality more palpable. You are still the same person who loved Jesus tremendously as a child, you just find it difficult to give a face to your spirituality now.

Any hate or ridicule that a person like you suffers is nugatory, because it comes from dogmatists, who've got so disoriented by the symbols called religions that they've lost the resonating connection with their environment, forgotten what every religion symbolises - the same wonders of creation that awe you and me. Angel



abcxyz
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 5:01:22 AM
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Thanks wercozy, but there's still a confusion. If natural awareness is spirituality (is that what you meant?), natural awareness can be scientific too. In fact, science is developed through natural awareness. Many people seem to suggest that spirituality is something exactly opposite to science, and that's where it gets confusing to me. Is spirituality theorization without a set of all realistic axioms and imagination which involve unreal things?
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 5:02:45 AM

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ludic wrote:
Do you see any difference between mind and brain?

No. It would be better if the phrase, "mind and brain" were replaced with mind/brain, it is a more accurate denotation. Even the metaphor of hardware and software is not accurate, and has many connotations that lead people astray when attempting to gain an understanding of the issue. Mind is brain in action, which is subtly, and critically different than saying mind is the product of brain.

Do you think there's a difference between your self and yourself?
Yes one is two words and the other is a compound word.Dancing
Sorry, couldn't resist but, it is not at all clear what exactly you're asking here. One of my favorite ways of specifically addressing the phenomenon of consciousness is, "The I of Mind." If this is what you meant by one of your terms, what is it you want to compare it too?
There is an interesting way of looking at aspects of consciousness as proposed by Julian Jaynes he sees two operating modalities, analog I, and metaphor me. The easiest way to get an idea of what he means is in conscious memory retrieval. For example, think of yourself sitting at your computer yesterday. Do you see the scene as you did then, i.e. from within yourself looking out? That's analog I, if you see yourself sitting at your computer, that is metaphor me. It is a fascinating flashlight to take into the dark room of consciousness, or in other words and interesting perspective from which to attempt exploring the operation of consciousness.

How do you superpose a spiritual mindset on a scientific one in the same person?

Depends what you mean by spiritual, in my opinion any proper scientist will by default have an intense, so called, spirituality, it would not be superposed but would be a result of a proper comprehension of nature.
If you mean that spirituality connotes a belief in a creator god, then I would submit your proposition is backwards and it is a scientific mindset being superposed on spirituality.


ludic
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 5:41:46 AM

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@ All

I had been looking forward to understanding everyone's perspectives about spirituality on this thread. The questions were asked on the P&R section because I had anticipated some soulful depth in them. If I had wanted the scientific difference between mind and brain, I'd've asked in the Science section, or semantic difference between your self and yourself, I'd've put it in the vocabulary section.

The questions had been left a bit vague deliberately, so that you all weren't constrained to answer to a specific aspect, they were just a means to give a direction, a construction to your answers. I've been terribly remiss, though, I believe.

I thank everyone genuinely for typing out such long answers, anyway.


In the first question, my aim was to see how you distinguish a chemical-physical-you from an animated-you; for this, I've got fairly satisfactory answers.


In the second, my aim was to find out if someone identified their selves as a soul, as distinct from theirselves as a body/ person.


I have been, of late, having difficulty in understanding how a person can be spiritual as well as scientific, that maybe because I think belief in a soul is an indispensible part of the concept of spirituality.

That is why I asked your opinions. The answer to the third questions depends not on how I percieve spirituality, but on how you percieve spirituality, which I also emphasised in the question.


Also, I wanted views from religious, spiritualists, atheists, agnostics and everyone else so could compare where the basic difference lay, or rather where most of them were in consonance.

Sorry for being obscure about what kind of answers I was expecting, and sounding like a pedagog right now Anxious

Thanks again for responding, nevertheless.
Angel




wercozy
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 12:42:46 PM
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ludic, I think you may be trying too hard to understand, or you may be resisting due to some strict form of teaching. I don't know you, of course, and I may not know what I'm talking about. But I do know me, and I can tell you I am science minded, and occasionally I will experience something spiritual. I'm not going to fight it because I like it. I love science, and I love my "ah-ha" moments. I know it's chemicals, hormones, and neurotransmitters being released when I'm running, skiing, or hiking trails. I don't care. I will take them all, and I will enjoy this ride called life because I feel so lucky and blessed to have a life. Lucky and blessed to be alive in such a chaotic world and never ending universe. Lucky and blessed to realize I'm lucky and blessed.

Speaking of lucky, when I was in Catholic school, I was told it was a sin to believe in luck. Imagine that!
intelfam
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 2:23:08 PM
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As far as myself and my self are concerned; I'd go along with Jungians. I tend to think I have several "selves" which I present in different situations eg at work, in my own home, down the pub etc. These are very coherent and tend not to contain many contradictions. But there is an underlying "I" which continues underneath these "personae". I also think that we can be so pressured to act in these different "selves" and we put so much effort into perfecting them, that we can sometimes mistake one of them for the underlying deeper, continuing one. FWIW
ludic
Posted: Friday, January 28, 2011 10:54:52 PM

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@ wercozy : That I try too hard to understand is a trait that has been pointed out to me by many. Angel But as dogged as I am, I can't rest without understanding the coexistance of "spirituality & science". For you, it seems, spirituality is, as abcxyz suggested, natural awareness, or a connection of your soul(can I say that?) with the soul of the nature. I too am sientific minded, but somehow my aesthetic mind seems to clash with the scientific one on matters of spirituality. That may be because of what I know from Hinduism. But rest assured I am not one of those naive people who believe in the teachings of their religion with a closed mind. I find those teachings as cogent as science. And I refuse to believe any of them false, instead I am trying to find a connection between them. Thanks for having put up with me. Angel


@ intefam : It truly is worth a lot. Thanks for sharing your experience. I think it is the underlying "you" that is your soul, the pure you, the house of morals and conscience and the essence of your being, that many-a-times gets repressed because of the masquerade the body has to do with nuanced personas of your self in different aspects all the time. Angel
abcxyz
Posted: Saturday, January 29, 2011 8:59:09 AM
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My confusion is more about the meaning of the term 'spiritual'. If I experience spirituality without knowing that it is called a 'spiritual experience', I don't have a problem. It's when other people ask me whether I am spiritual or not I draw a blank. It is not a big deal at all if the word 'spirituality' escapes my vocabulary. Here ludic seemed to have difficulty to understand how a person can be science minded and spiritual at the same time, so I just asked where spirituality contradicts science-mindedness.
noorfr
Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:53:48 AM

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@ wercozy: i’ve already written to you elsewhere how everything was changed one day and doctors couldn’t help. those were the bad days. i’d forgotten what sleep was, n used to spend nights hitting my head against wall. with the appearance of morning lights i used to put my joggers on n leave my place to hunt roads. my fev hunt was All Saint’s Cathedral a few miles away. a huge building n picturesque surroundings. n i used to talk to Isa (Jesus), being born as s muslim i always carried great faith for him in my heart. i used to talk to him as a friend n called him best friend. n i never ever talked to anybody else there, never. n one day, a received a letter from a place 1000 miles away, from kirthika, n she said – ‘Jesus has asked me to write to you. you need me.’ n she stayed with till my problems were in control n i was returned to normal life. you may not believe it wercozy or anyone else who’s reading it. but its true. i didn’t turn to christianity after it. Jesus doesn’t merely belong to christians. he belongs to humans n he died (though for me he’s not dead) for humanity, not merely for his followers. still, if i talk about spirituality, i don’t understand what spirituality is. i think everyone, who’s good at heart, n understands the rules of universe, is spiritual.

@ abcxyz: the same problem i face what you’ve written here. i’m too unable to define spirituality. i closely followed this post here to improve my understanding, but the truth is it couldn’t help. i think spirituality couldn’t be defined in words, or at least in someone else’s word. we can draw our own line that it was spiritual for me, n it wasn’t. but again to draw a line, we’ll have to know for what???

@ ludic: i ask for your forgiveness ludic, i’m using your post for my understanding. but all this is very important to me too. i’m still not very clear at one thing, when you say - how a person can be spiritual as well as scientific. for the reason perhaps, i’m drawing out my own definitions for spiritual and scientific. would you please (only if you please, its not important) give me one line (your) definition of these two words. it may help me.
ludic
Posted: Sunday, January 30, 2011 12:42:10 PM

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I think spirituality is the cornerstone of religion. A spiritual person is aware of their soul and the soul of the nature and the supreme soul, and has the ability to feel the connection between the three.

My scientific mind says that there is energy, energy of many different sorts that is the universe. That is what makes me feel the connection. The matter that I am is only a vibrating form of energy, which might tomorrow be used on some very distant planet to form a particle of dust - maybe, or maybe an amoeba... my soul is energy, nature is energy + matter, God is energy - permeating the universe, directing the divine play - galaxies forming, separating, getting destroyed, origin of life somewhere... - this energy is what I call the supreme soul.

So you see, I have evolved a definition of spirituality for myself that is cogent to my scientific mind. I view my religious teachings in the light of my own personal spiritual definition, and so I am a happy and content religious person.



PS : I don't mind at all you using the thread to understand something. In fact, who am I to mind? The threads are meant for the understanding through discussion for all who participate Angel
noorfr
Posted: Monday, January 31, 2011 1:45:01 AM

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well. well. well.
first of all i thank you ludic for your permission.

sometimes back utopsia had put up a thread that - if you could and wish what or who would you be? several readers replied and it was treated as fun. i too replied but i was very serious. i wanted to become oxygen n wanted to go to stars. and i know well it is possible.

know ludic. for all my life, i tried to find god thru religion or religions. i was failed. then few years back i gave up my religion and all the religions that its all stupidity. i was, therefore, left to the science. and here i found something (not in one day of course), something which was close to the definition of god. it’s the same god you’ve written about above. god is energy. understanding the rules of nature, i can say i’m close to the god of our universe. i cannot say about others (universes, if there’re any).

ironically, when i found god and many other truths (in my understanding), i realised all the religions, in some way or other, were trying to tell me the same thing. only my approach was wrong. very very wrong. here i started mixing up. science and spirituality. take this, drop that, pick it up, not that…. and my search it still on.

i’ve dropped matter as well. energy, and only energy. (like you've said it too that god is energy, n i assume everything's part of it, so everything's energy). only energy, divided into two forms. the one, what you’re calling - energy, and the other one, that you’re calling - matter. and the only two actions it performs – creation, and destruction. there’s no other truth. i’m following it since the day of big bang. since our so called ‘time’ started. creation, and destruction, and when nothing is created, and nothing is destroyed. how beautiful.
GreenSleeves
Posted: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 1:54:14 AM
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noorfr wrote:
well. well. well.
first of all i thank you ludic for your permission.

sometimes back utopsia had put up a thread that - if you could and wish what or who would you be? several readers replied and it was treated as fun. i too replied but i was very serious. i wanted to become oxygen n wanted to go to stars. and i know well it is possible.

know ludic. for all my life, i tried to find god thru religion or religions. i was failed. then few years back i gave up my religion and all the religions that its all stupidity. i was, therefore, left to the science. and here i found something (not in one day of course), something which was close to the definition of god. it’s the same god you’ve written about above. god is energy. understanding the rules of nature, i can say i’m close to the god of our universe. i cannot say about others (universes, if there’re any).

ironically, when i found god and many other truths (in my understanding), i realised all the religions, in some way or other, were trying to tell me the same thing. only my approach was wrong. very very wrong. here i started mixing up. science and spirituality. take this, drop that, pick it up, not that…. and my search it still on.

i’ve dropped matter as well. energy, and only energy. (like you've said it too that god is energy, n i assume everything's part of it, so everything's energy). only energy, divided into two forms. the one, what you’re calling - energy, and the other one, that you’re calling - matter. and the only two actions it performs – creation, and destruction. there’s no other truth. i’m following it since the day of big bang. since our so called ‘time’ started. creation, and destruction, and when nothing is created, and nothing is destroyed. how beautiful.



Noorfr
I think you are really on the way to finding your truth, (but what do you mean by ''...and when nothing is created, and nothing is destroyed. how beautifull.''?
Art, Creators, saves Humanity.
We don't know what is a soul, it comes from the word Anima. The Spiritual is the immaterial-INN-us.
You are searching very much for what's already in your posession. There is no such thing as Evil-Spirit.
noorfr
Posted: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 5:12:22 AM

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@ GreenSleeves

what do you mean by... nothing is created, and nothing is destroyed...:
Creation & Destruction. its what we see. we feel happy for creation, n are disheartened to see destruction. but hey! stop here. think again. nothing is destroyed actually. only the (so-called) energy is changing its form. energy is never created n never destroyed. this is the truth beyond the visible truths. it only changes form. thus, when something is destroyed, another thing is created. so if you’re praising of the beauty of anything, it was created only for something else was destroyed in the past. so there’s nothing to feel sad. only joy. Be Happy.

Soul... we don’t know what’s soul... we may not know. again i say stop. think again. what we are??? i’ve written above there’re only energy, in two forms, or ludic's terms may sound more accurate to explain here - energy + matter. energy is moving, when matter is static. human body is the combination of both. when kinetic form (soul) is separated from the static form (matter, i.e. body)... we’re dead.

Evil-Spirit... there’s no such thing.. yes, for sure, i agree. here again i would divide energy in two forms, a little different kind of.. Positive energy & Negative energy (dark energy and dark matter are still big mysteries, but its not unknown too). both the energy forms may be in balance overall, but at one particular point, it keeps on changing. some times at some certain point / place, some negative energy is collected and start affecting it surroundings, and also us, if by sheer chance, we’re at the wrong place at the wrong time (as we put it). so, negative is strong, n we passed by with positive, n +ve –ve attract each other, so that –ve energy gets attached with us, n starts affecting us. most of the time it departs by itself, but sometimes it stays.
so, when i’m talking to a believer, a believer in any particular religion, i use the term evil-spirit. for it’ll be easier for them to understand what i’m talking about. hope its clear now.
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