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Ayatollah Khamenei’s Message to Youth in Europe Options
Khalid Sami
Posted: Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:11:40 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/2012
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In an unprecedented open letter to the youth in Europe and North America, Iranian Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, urged them to examine Islam firsthand rather than believe prejudiced views.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,
The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don’t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.
I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don’t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments’ insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don’t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the “other” have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading “phobia” and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam.

My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don’t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don’t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today’s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don’t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur’an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur’an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don’t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don’t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Sayyed Ali Khamenei
21st Jan. 2015

Source: Khamenei.ir
Robert Imgrat
Posted: Sunday, November 29, 2015 5:44:10 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

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I have nothing against Islam at all. What I do not agree, is hatred against Israel. Although, what is a historical fact, that Iran had showed more clemency and humanity towards Israel than most European countries did in the past (vide: Catholic Church). I mean, that Iran's ancestors were in the position of a power, now enjoyed by US. Iran, or then Persia, had let to relocate Israelis, to come back into their land, long ago in the past. After Israelis were expulsed from their Land. But still, I think, nowadays, it is more of a customary hatred towards Israel than real animosity. Customary, I mean, maintained on account of inexplicable ''why not''.
The biggest problem lies with the number of adherents to Islam and their atrocities committed against innocent people. There are no Christians willing to die to the glory of God, who are/were ready to launch attacks against people on the streets in Muslim countries. Although, it is possible to imagine that. And then what ensues? Total war, in which Islam looses, because of Muslim countries' lack of sophisticated arms? You do not want to wait for decisive leaders from Europe and US alike, to see obliterated half of a World. I mean, Muslim part of a World. But up to now, it is on the part of Muslim preachers inciting people to kill Christians. Because they - Christians - do not let to create Palestine (never existed before), or on account of any other bogus claim.

I, personally, would like some day to visit not only Saudi Arabia, but Iran first. To see, how do people in Iran live. What kind of bread do they enjoy, what sort of beef is their favourite. And, of course, I would like to see fresh peanuts growing on their fields.
Ravindra
Posted: Monday, November 30, 2015 1:00:00 AM
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Joined: 3/23/2009
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Thank you Khalid Sami for the excerpts of the Iranian Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's thought provoking message to the youth. I deem 'the youth' referred to here as 'all the youth across the globe'.

I appeal to everyone, in particular 'the youth of the world' to please understand every religion, here the Islam, from its original source and not through 'the self styled selfish preachers'. No religion propagates or advocates 'hatred towards the other religion followers' even against the worst sinners. Mahatma Gandhi has said 'hate the sin; not the sinner.'

I wish to draw a special attention to the Iranian Supreme Leader's statement:
I don’t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don’t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today’s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don’t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

The world has more leaders to preach hatred towards the other religious people and none to ask their followers to love the other religions too.

My great reverence to the Iranian Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Thank you Sir.

Let's dispel the fear and ignorance, light up the world and spread love across the world.
Ni un voto al PRIAN PVEM
Posted: Monday, November 30, 2015 2:20:24 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/2013
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Location: Mexico City, The Federal District, Mexico
"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
What I do not agree, is hatred against Israel

I find perfectly logical that people dislike Zionist murderers, because there's no justice, that hatred has extended towards innocent civilians and the whole Zionist project, ie Israel. Key phrase 'there's no justice'. Romeo and Juliet families hate each other because a string of murders that went without justice. I don't expect a raped woman to not feel hatred towards her rapist, it would be illogical.

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
Customary, I mean, maintained on account of inexplicable ''why not''.

The only customary events are the massacres, Zionist are committing from time to time in Gaza, more than 2 thousand people were killed during Operation Protective Edge 2014, that went without justice, hence the root of hatred.

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
There are no Christians willing to die to the glory of God

I don't see many Muslims willing to die for the glory of any God either. So called 'terrorist' want to achieve political goals not religious goals. Osama bin Laden wanted the US troops out of Saudi Arabia. Terrorist attacking Paris wanted France out of Syria. Stabbings in the Occupied territories happen because Palestinians are tired of the apartheid regime and the occupation.

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
who are/were ready to launch attacks against people on the streets in Muslim countries

What are the airstrikes in Pakistan, Afghanistan that kill thousands of innocent civilians? Also while you were drunk, lying on the floor semi-unconscious puking on yourself, a white Christian terrorist attacked an abortion clinic.

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
Muslim preachers inciting people to kill Christians

There's a lot of infidel catholic Christians in some parts of the world, that only heard of terrorist attacks in the news, maybe because we are not bombing Muslim towns

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
Palestine (never existed before)

That's the injustice I'm talking about or is it more like evil?. Since Palestinians did not claimed a country even though they have lived there for centuries, then the Zionist feel 'right' to come and demolish their homes and forcefully expel them and claim a country for themselves.
If my neighbor writes a book, he doesn't register as intellectual property, I find that book by chance then I go and register that book as my own and of top of that I kill my neighbor, and on top of that I expect his family doesn't hate me! What a Chutzpah!

"Robert Imgrat" wrote:
I would like to see fresh peanuts growing on their fields

Just growing or are you thinking of some Peanut liqueur?
Axel Bear
Posted: Monday, November 30, 2015 5:38:37 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/5/2015
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Axel Bear
Posted: Monday, November 30, 2015 5:44:58 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/5/2015
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I believe in FREE SPEECH for everyone.

But a thread like this one only shows how much HATRED there is in some of the posters here.

FounDit
Posted: Monday, November 30, 2015 11:01:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
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If only the internet had been around in the year 1095, and the Pope could have sent this message to the youth of the Middle East.

An unprecedented letter to the youth of the Middle Eastern States, Pope Urban II urges you to examine Christianity firsthand, rather than through prejudiced views.

In the year of our LORD, 1095, and In the name of Jehovah, Father God:

To the youth of the Middle East,
Recent events in some of your countries have convinced me to talk directly to you. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts. Your parents have had too much experience, knowledge and wisdom to be swayed by propaganda, but you are easily taught.

I don’t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth, which can only be found in Christianity.
I would like to talk to you about Christianity, particularly the image that is presented to you as Christianity.

Many attempts have been made to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the Middle East.

Here, I don’t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Middle Eastern nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Middle Eastern governments’ insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the Middle Eastern countries should be ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by their butchery, and chagrined at the oppression of people. Your researchers and historians should be deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of the religion of Islam, and in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the wars you have fought. This approach would be admirable, but rather is glorified.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don’t want to brag on your history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the Middle East never awakens and comes to its senses. Why should the collective conscience seek to apply ancient thinking to current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to glorify public expression regarding an important issue such as the treatment of non-Islamic culture and thought, such as you have in beheadings, crucifixion, burning, stoning, or drowning? Why do you lump all people other than your own under the label of “The Great Satan”?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the “other” have been the common base of all your oppressive leaders. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading “phobia” and hatred has targeted Christianity and Christians with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Christian thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Christianity disturb the programs of your military powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Christianity? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Christianity.

My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from. Pay no attention to those who roam through your land, killing and slaughtering while wearing the sign of the cross. They do not represent real Christians.

I don’t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Christianity. What I want to say is: Don’t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today’s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don’t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Christianity.

Receive knowledge of Christianity from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Christianity through the Bible and the life of its great Prophet, Jesus. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Bible of the Christians. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Christianity, the Son of God, and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Christianity from any sources other than those who are currently killing your people?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Christianity established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, Crusaders have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don’t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders. Welcome them, and all will be well.
Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Christianity and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths. You may find that Islam is not the best fit for you, and Christianity fits better. Besides that, you will find that the Crusaders in your midst will treat you as brothers, and will not slaughter your families. All you have to do is forsake what you believe in favor of our religion.

Therefore, don’t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Christianity so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Christianity and the Middle East with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment. This will be especially true once all of you have been converted to Christianity.

Pope Urban II
The Year of Our Lord 1095 Amen
ellana
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 1:29:07 AM
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Am I seeing things or is this plagiarism, close to one millennium later??
Ni un voto al PRIAN PVEM
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 6:34:06 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/2013
Posts: 460
Neurons: 54,261
Location: Mexico City, The Federal District, Mexico
ellana wrote:
Am I seeing things or is this plagiarism, close to one millennium later??

What you are seeing is another botched attempt of FoundDit to redeem himself as a satirist or stand-up comedian, but he failed miserably. He keeps talking about 'the Middle Eastern countries' yet there were no countries in 1095, just Empires (Arab, Byzantine, Persian). Also the Eurocentric names 'middle, near and far east' appeared during the 18th century after the first wave of European colonization (after the industrial revolution).

As to the central premise 'Muslims kill Christian for being Christians' it's a classic piece of Zionist propaganda. Terrorism, with the exception of Washington's sponsored ISIS, wants to fulfill political goals, not convert the world to Islam. Syria before ISIS was a country where Christians and Muslims lived more or less in peace. Bashar al-Assad (Shia Islam) had no trouble to welcome the late Pope John Paul II in 2001.

Palestine was another multicultural region in the 19th century, and despite Jews being a minority they were free to pray in the wailing wall. But now in the 21st century the IDF demolish mosques and closes from time to time Al-Aqsa Mosque in the West Bank (the third holiest site in Islam)
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 12:50:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 14,988
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Ni un voto al PRIAN PVEM wrote:


"What you are seeing is another botched attempt of FoundDit to redeem himself as a satirist or stand-up comedian, but he failed miserably."

Really?...Think hmmm, if you recognized it as satire then it would seem that I didn't fail at all, but was very successful.

Thanks...
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 2:19:52 PM

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Sami, I went to your khamenei.ir website but could not find this speech anywhere. Nor could I find it online to verify who wrote it. Snopes had no results.

Do you have a link where I can find it?
Axel Bear
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 2:41:01 PM

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Khalid Sami
Posted: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 6:33:27 PM
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Khalid Sami
Posted: Wednesday, December 2, 2015 5:35:52 PM
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Mr. Khamenei's message was for young people,. Is in its entirety tells the story of anxiety and pain, which controls the world. It is briefly express sympathy and solidarity with the youth of Europe and America, but it also says to the West in general and especially America: If you would like to leave the Great Satan, read what you did and still do and correct it, this message is a healing recipe.

Year Resolution Vetoed by the United States

1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.

1973 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.

1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.

1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.

1976 Affirms the rights of the Palestinians.

1978 Urges the permanent members (USA, USSR, UK, France, China) to insure UN decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security.

1978 Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians.

1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.

1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.

1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.

1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.

1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement.

1979 Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race.

1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.

1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.

1979 Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.

1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.

1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.

1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.

1979 Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

1979 Opposes support for intervention in the internal or external affairs ofstates.

1979 For a UN Conference on Women.

1979 To include Palestinian women in the UN Conference on Women.

1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations.

1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.

1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.

1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories: 3 resolutions.

1980 Affirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.

1980 Offers assistance to the oppressed people of South Africa and their national liberation movement.

1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation.

1980 Endorses the Program of Action for Second Half of UN Decade for Women.

1980 Declaration of non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states.

1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.

1980 Calls for the cessation of all nuclear test explosions.

1980 Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.

1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.

1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.

1981 Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories.

1981 Calls for the cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons.

1981 Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament.

1981 Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons.

1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.

1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions: 7 resolutions.

1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.

1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq:
18 resolutions.

1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon:
6 resolutions (1982 to 1983).

1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.

1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.

1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa: 4 resolutions.

1982 Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology.

1982 Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives, and debts.

1982 Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space: 3 resolutions.

1982 Supports a new world information and communications order.

1982 Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons.

1982 Development of international law.

1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment .

1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, and national development are human rights.

1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.

1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.

1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law: 15 resolutions.

1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.

1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.

1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.

1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.

1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.

1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.

1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions.

1985 Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist, and neo-Fascist activities .

1986 Calls on all governments (including the United States) to observe international law.

1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.

1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.

1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.

1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.

1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment, and development: 8 resolutions.

1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.

1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.

1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon:
2 resolutions.

1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

1987 Cooperation between the UN and League of Arab States.

1987 Calls for compliance in the International Court of Justice concerning military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua and a call to end the trade embargo against Nicaragua: 2 resolutions.

1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.

1987 Resolutions concerning journalism, international debt, and trade: 3 resolutions.

1987 Opposition to the build up of weapons in space.

1987 Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction.

1987 Opposition to nuclear testing. 2 resolutions.

1987 Proposal to set up South Atlantic "Zone of Peace".

1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories: 5 resolutions (1988 and 1989).

1989 Condemns US invasion of Panama.

1989 Condemns US troops for ransacking the residence of the Nicaraguan ambassador in Panama.

1989 Condemns US support for the Contra army in Nicaragua.

1989 Condemns illegal US embargo of Nicaragua.

1989 Opposing the acquisition of territory by force.

1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resoltions.

1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.

1995 Affirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.

1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories:
2 resolutions.

1999 Calls on the United States to end its trade embargo on Cuba:
8 resolutions (1992 to 1999).

2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.

2002 To renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia.

[Chart above from http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/geoff/UNresolutions.htm]



[Chart below from: http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html]

2002 Condemns the killing of a UN worker from the United Kingdom by Israeli forces. Condemns the destruction of the World Food Programme warehouse.

2003 Condemns a decision by the Israeli parliament to "remove" the elected Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat.

2003 Condemns the building of a wall by Israel on Palestinian land.

2003 To end the US's forty-year embargo of Cuba.

2004 Condemns the assassination of Hamas leader Sheik Ahmad Yassin.

2004 Condemns the Israeli incursion and killings in Gaza.

2004 Production and processing of weapon-usable material should be under international control.

2006 Calls for an end to Israeli military incursions and attacks on Gaza.

2006 Calls for an end to the financial embargo against Cuba.

2007 Calls for peaceful uses for outer space.

2007 Calls for a convention against female descrimination.

2007 Concerning the rights of children.

2007 Concerning the right to food.

2007 On the applicability of the Geneva Convention to the protection of civilians in time of war.

2007 Calls for the protection of the Global Climate.

2007 Calls for Indian Ocean to be declared a zone of peace. Calls for a nuclear weapon-free South East Asia.

2007 Calls for the right of self determination for the Palestinian people. Other resolutions regarding the Palestinians and their rights.

2008 Calls for progress towards an arms trade treaty.

2008 Banning the development of new weapons of mass destruction.

2008 Assuring non-nuclear states they will not be attacked or threatened with nuclear weapons.

2008 Prevention of the development of an arms race in outer space and transparency in outer space activities.

2008 Calls to decrease the operational readiness of nuclear weapons systems and to ban nuclear weapons.

2008 Calls to end the use of depleted Uranium in weapons.

2008 Concerning the trade in illicit small arms.

2008 Calls for a nuclear free Central Asia and a nuclear free Southern Hemisphere. Prevention of proliferation in the Middle East.

2008 Calls for a comprehensive (nuclear) test ban treaty. Calls for a nuclear weapon free world.

2008 Calls for a treaty on children's rights.

2008 Condemns racial descrimination.

2008 Affirms the soverignty of Palestinians over the occupied territories and their resources.

2008 Affirms the right of the Palestinians to self determination.

2008 Calls on Israel to pay the cost of cleaning up an oil slick off the coast of Lebanon caused by its bombing.

2008 Calls for a new economic order.

2008 Calls for a right of development for nations.

2008 Calls for a right to food.

2008 Respect for the right to universal freedom of travel and the vital importance of family reunification.

2008 Concerning developments in information technology for international security.

2008 Resolutions concerning Palestine, its people, their property, and Israeli practices in Palestine, including settlements.

2009 Calls for an end to the twenty-two-day-long Israeli attack on Gaza.

2011 Calls for a halt to the illegal Israeli West Bank settlements.

2011 Calls for Israel to cease obstructing the movement and access of the staff, vehicles and supplies of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees.

2011 Calls for the immediate and complete cessation of all Israeli settlement activities in all of the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan.

Was it that "hatred" Axel Bear? US on UN Veto: "Disgusting", "Shameful", "Deplorable","a Travesty" . . . Really?
Axel Bear
Posted: Thursday, December 3, 2015 6:37:13 AM

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The above poster in all his haste to write his history of the world apparently didn't have time to understand my post. My English is not always good and that is why I am on this forum.

So to repeat my posting once again for clarity:

'...But a thread like this one only shows how much HATRED there is in some of the posters here.'


The hatred I mentioned applies to 'some of the posters' not to any particular organisation or country.

ps. maybe the poster knows of a forum in Iran where I can pursue my bad habit of ranting and raging without provoking a fatwā.

Like beauty, truth is in the eyes of the beholder.

Khalid Sami
Posted: Thursday, December 3, 2015 1:18:46 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/2012
Posts: 1,918
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Don't make assumptions and accusations especially about people's motives and especially when you don't know what you are talking about.
You didn't even adress to me directly, Axel Bear !
You said: the above poster.
I can cry loudly, looking like a fanatic preaching for hatred, but never act the way you acted.
Ephesians 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
I knew from the start that you were referring to some of the posters, not to any particular organisation or country.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, December 3, 2015 5:14:43 PM

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Khalid Sami wrote:

In an unprecedented open letter to the youth in Europe and North America, Iranian Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, urged them to examine Islam firsthand rather than believe prejudiced views.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful

To the Youth in Europe and North America,
The recent events in France and similar ones in some other Western countries have convinced me to directly talk to you about them. I am addressing you, [the youth], not because I overlook your parents, rather it is because the future of your nations and countries will be in your hands; and also I find that the sense of quest for truth is more vigorous and attentive in your hearts.

I don’t address your politicians and statesmen either in this writing because I believe that they have consciously separated the route of politics from the path of righteousness and truth.
I would like to talk to you about Islam, particularly the image that is presented to you as Islam. Many attempts have been made over the past two decades, almost since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, to place this great religion in the seat of a horrifying enemy. The provocation of a feeling of horror and hatred and its utilization has unfortunately a long record in the political history of the West.

Here, I don’t want to deal with the different phobias with which the Western nations have thus far been indoctrinated. A cursory review of recent critical studies of history would bring home to you the fact that the Western governments’ insincere and hypocritical treatment of other nations and cultures has been censured in new historiographies.

The histories of the United States and Europe are ashamed of slavery, embarrassed by the colonial period and chagrined at the oppression of people of color and non-Christians. Your researchers and historians are deeply ashamed of the bloodsheds wrought in the name of religion between the Catholics and Protestants or in the name of nationality and ethnicity during the First and Second World Wars. This approach is admirable.

By mentioning a fraction of this long list, I don’t want to reproach history; rather I would like you to ask your intellectuals as to why the public conscience in the West awakens and comes to its senses after a delay of several decades or centuries. Why should the revision of collective conscience apply to the distant past and not to the current problems? Why is it that attempts are made to prevent public awareness regarding an important issue such as the treatment of Islamic culture and thought?

You know well that humiliation and spreading hatred and illusionary fear of the “other” have been the common base of all those oppressive profiteers. Now, I would like you to ask yourself why the old policy of spreading “phobia” and hatred has targeted Islam and Muslims with an unprecedented intensity. Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam.

My second request is that in reaction to the flood of prejudgments and disinformation campaigns, try to gain a direct and firsthand knowledge of this religion. The right logic requires that you understand the nature and essence of what they are frightening you about and want you to keep away from.

I don’t insist that you accept my reading or any other reading of Islam. What I want to say is: Don’t allow this dynamic and effective reality in today’s world to be introduced to you through resentments and prejudices. Don’t allow them to hypocritically introduce their own recruited terrorists as representatives of Islam.

Receive knowledge of Islam from its primary and original sources. Gain information about Islam through the Qur’an and the life of its great Prophet. I would like to ask you whether you have directly read the Qur’an of the Muslims. Have you studied the teachings of the Prophet of Islam and his humane, ethical doctrines? Have you ever received the message of Islam from any sources other than the media?

Have you ever asked yourself how and on the basis of which values has Islam established the greatest scientific and intellectual civilization of the world and raised the most distinguished scientists and intellectuals throughout several centuries?

I would like you not to allow the derogatory and offensive image-buildings to create an emotional gulf between you and the reality, taking away the possibility of an impartial judgment from you. Today, the communication media have removed the geographical borders. Hence, don’t allow them to besiege you within fabricated and mental borders.

Although no one can individually fill the created gaps, each one of you can construct a bridge of thought and fairness over the gaps to illuminate yourself and your surrounding environment. While this preplanned challenge between Islam and you, the youth, is undesirable, it can raise new questions in your curious and inquiring minds. Attempts to find answers to these questions will provide you with an appropriate opportunity to discover new truths.

Therefore, don’t miss the opportunity to gain proper, correct and unbiased understanding of Islam so that hopefully, due to your sense of responsibility toward the truth, future generations would write the history of this current interaction between Islam and the West with a clearer conscience and lesser resentment.

Sayyed Ali Khamenei
21st Jan. 2015

Source: Khamenei.ir



Ayatollah Khamenei makes some very valid points in his letter of 21st June 2015, and he does well to bring them to the attention of the younger generations in the Western world where young people, in particular, are subject to misleading and damaging disinformation about spirituality, including Islam.
It is, however, a misleading generalisation that young people are more interested than their parents in finding answers to the murderous activities that are carried out in the name of Islam (whether or not they truly are). For sure, some, perhaps many, young men and women today will receive the Ayatollah’s letter warmly and examine the content fairly, taking into consideration all the points he makes and arriving at an informed conclusion. Sadly though, these young people will be from the educated classes – students and scholars from stable backgrounds and with an assured future in society. Unfortunately perhaps, his appeal will not reach the hearts and minds of the vast majority of those in their teens and early twenties in less comfortable circumstances and with uncertain futures ahead of them. It is extremely doubtful if they will read, or even see, the Ayatollah’s letter, and even less certain that they will understand and accept its counsel. I have not the least doubt that the Ayatollah is well aware of that situation and is well-focussed on reaching his target audience.
It is somewhat alarming that the Ayatollah writes off all parents as stony ground, and all politicians and statesmen as corrupt and devious, even the Lords Bishops in the UK parliament. Allegations of that nature are reminiscent of Fascist propaganda.
It is true that the influence of Islam poses a threat to the Establishment in Western countries where the State is the secular voice of the Church – willingly or unwillingly - for the Church still has considerable influence over national government. That people are hostile to Islam suits the Establishment which does little to discourage the tabloid press from publishing the blackest reports about so-called pro-Islamic activities. It would certainly help to improve relations between peoples of different faiths and associated cultures if it could be demonstrated that the horrors perpetrated on innocent citizens, such as in New York, London and Paris, was not the work of true, practicing, Muslims. On the other hand, it is not at all helpful for Islamic spokesmen to lay the blame at the door of the western oppressors of Muslims, yesterday or today, and for senior Clergy to encourage, by their silence, those who arm the terrorists with poisonous propaganda.
Yet bringing terrorism ‘in the name of Islam’ under control would only be part of the way to better relationships between Muslims and Christians. We in the U.K. will never be comfortable with Honour Killings, Female Genital Mutilation and the subjection of women. It was Islam that brought such traditions to our shores and until such times as Muslims put such practices behind them Islam will always be viewed with suspicion by the British public.
Sure, these customs are practised by a minority of Muslims, but that is still a lot of Muslims in our face. More widespread, and just as disturbing, at least for Christian Believers, is the attitude of Muslims in general. They boast that they pray five times a day. But Jesus says we should pray in private and not like the hypocrites who want everyone to know they are devout in prayer (Matthew chapter 6). Also they boast about how generous they are in charitable giving. I have heard Muslim business men boast that they give 25% of their disposable income to charity. But Jesus says our giving should be in secret (Matthew again). And it should be sacrificial. Like the widow in the Gospel of Mark who gave all that she could afford – not just 25%.
Now it is not suggested that Muslims should adopt such Christian values, but they should respect them. And they should remember that respect must be earned. At present, much of the offensive image-building is the work of Muslims themselves. They are the image of Islam that is presented to us every day in the streets. Walk the Walk, Mr Khamenei, then your people in Europe and North America can Talk the Talk and bear fruit for God.

Hope123
Posted: Thursday, December 3, 2015 9:50:10 PM

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Exceptionally well and nicely said, Jacobus!

First let me say that studying, and comparing many religions is an excellent way to expand one's viewpoint. As a matter of fact, critical thinking while comparing may even lead one to become an agnostic. ;)

The Ayatollah's goal of lessening resentment between two groups is a fine one, and he makes some good points. My criticism is that the effort should come from both Muslims and non Muslims, not just from the European and Western youth being targeted in the speech.

I might also add that people learn more by watching what others do, not by studying what they say in their ideology in religious books.
When pushy obnoxious Muslim persons in our country make demands of sales clerks, wanting special treatment, that impression soon becomes a stereotype and people talk. Learn how we do things here.

Also, I have mentioned these next recent facts in other threads. Canadian people were justifiably angry when two Muslim students at a SECULAR school unfairly sued that school and won for discrimination because the school would not allow them to pray on the school grounds. The fact that nobody else from ANY religion was allowed to pray there made no dent in their reasoning, nor that of a too-liberal judge. They were actually paid several thousand dollars for PRACTISING DISCRIMINATION. Two greedy opportunists did not help the Muslim image one bit. In fact indignation was all over the news when it happened. I have not heard the results of the appeal by the school yet. And the 'clock boy' suing for millions is another example.

Then there is the fact that a Toronto cafeteria in a high school is taken over for prayer by Muslim youth. I saw a photo. The females had to sit at the back and the story explained that menstruating females had to be segregated. This is way behind the times in our country. The officials gave in to pressure to make it more convenient for the Muslim youth. What about the non Muslims who lost the use of the cafeteria at lunch time?

And then there is the example of a Muslim sports team who held another team emotionally hostage when they WERE IN A LEAGUE that ALLOWED FEMALE players but showed up and refused to play a team with a girl on it. The girl sat out the game because her team had to play to get points to advance in the league and if the other team forfeited, her team lost out. Or a Jewish man wanting a woman to be moved on an airplane because HE did not want to sit beside a woman. These stories all hit the news and did not help the Muslim image either. Or the fundamentalist Jewish man either.

These are all learning experiences that weigh far more than studying the teachings of Mohammed or the Jewish leaders. Or I might add of any leader, Christian as well.

The fact also remains that the ISIS terrorists are a faction of Muslims, or they are a group using Muslim religion to justify their horrific actions. And yet it is OUR youth the Ayatollah asks to understand and study HIS religion and to be more tolerant of it. I think he has it backwards.

So where in his speech does he ask Muslim youth to understand and be more tolerant of other religions such as Christianity? And to stop the radicalization of Muslim young males at some mosques by the Imams? That has happened here more than once.

Quote from the Ayatollah's speech - "Why does the power structure in the world want Islamic thought to be marginalized and remain latent? What concepts and values in Islam disturb the programs of the super powers and what interests are safeguarded in the shadow of distorting the image of Islam? Hence, my first request is: Study and research the incentives behind this widespread tarnishing of the image of Islam."

MY Ideological Answer - Why would we not have a tendency to mistrust the religion as a whole when those who revel in violence, even making videos of beheadings, the most obscene way to kill someone, proclaim they are doing it for the leader of Muslims? And when civil and tribal war always seems to be in certain areas of the world by the same peoples? And when we read articles in our newspapers by Muslims defiantly proclaiming they should not have to try to explain their religion or apologize for the terrorists, but want us to change our views and laws (want Sharia law) in our own country to accommodate them? And when we have heard it proclaimed by Muslims from their teachings that their aim is to rid the world of anyone who is not Muslim. And their treatment of women as Jacobus listed? The question is not "Why" but "Why not?"

However, that is my ideological answer and whenever I meet an individual Muslim, I treat them with the same respect I expect to be treated. Unfortunately, we are not always treated politely and with that same respect as I divulged above.

So Mr. Ayatollah, you won't see this and my questions and observations will not be answered. But to sum up, we learn from watching what people do, not what they say. So teaching and thus changing the behavior of some Muslims would be a good way to change the image of Islam. And every story has two sides to it. Your speech gives only your side from your point of view. And you request only the opposing group to make changes. (That also goes against the wisdom that one can only change oneself.)

Hope123
Posted: Thursday, December 3, 2015 10:21:46 PM

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One more point about the Ayatollah's speech -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery

We had a thread just recently about microaggression. I called it passive-aggressive and mentioned backhanded compliments and this is an excellent example of the Ayatollah using it. He made the backhanded compliment about the US being apologetic about slavery. Yet the teachings of Mohammed and the Quaran say that slavery is allowed under certain conditions.

Perhaps one of those conditions is being a woman in modern day Islam...

Slavery predates written records and has been practised by every country at one time or another. This quote is from the link at the bottom. To bring up the slavery in the US saying it was admirable that the west is ashamed of it, was a backhanded compliment. To ignore the history of slavery in the world and in his own religion was hypocritical, the false appearance of virtue by omission.

"The Islamic World was a main factor in slavery. After the Muslim conquests of North Africa and most of the Iberian peninsula (632–750), the Islamic world became a huge importer of Saqaliba (Slavic) slaves from central and eastern Europe.[32] The Muslim powers of Iberia both raided for slaves and purchased slaves from European merchants, often the Jewish Radhanites, one of the few groups who could easily move between the Christian and Islamic worlds.[33] Records of Jewish participation in the slave trade go back to the 5th century.[34] Olivia Remie Constable wrote: "Muslim and Jewish merchants brought slaves into al-Andalus from eastern Europe and Christian Spain, and then re-exported them to other regions of the Islamic world."[33] The etymology of the English word slave recalls this period, as the word sklabos means Slav.[35][36]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery


Hope123
Posted: Friday, December 4, 2015 12:13:54 AM

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I left TFD and checked my mail, where I got a message from YouTube to watch some videos.

I only watched the beginning of each of these four videos. That was enough to get the idea. Very sad, and very alarming situation, if these videos are accurate. There are lots more videos listed next.

The first video says the Muslims are not interested in assimilating, which is what my first previous post showed here in some of those immigrants already in Canada. Not refugees. They are just starting to come.

http://youtu.be/MxM2cPk-pEk


http://youtu.be/RFb7cmFsPoc


I don't know what they are saying and depend upon the subtitles to be accurate. Scary if true, Mr. Ayatollah. And very arrogant in somebody else's country.


http://youtu.be/SOi8QJD8fiw


http://youtu.be/KOldWK4hFTM

And you want European and western youth to study Islam to improve relations between muslims and non muslims, Mr Ayatollah? Shhh

Are all these videos wrong? Imc and Rogermue?

I live in a country of law and order. Even now we have very few protests and they are nearly all peaceful demonstrations. I am not used to seeing large angry mobs such as these. It is very disconcerting to me.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Friday, December 4, 2015 4:03:14 AM

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1.The Prophet (SAWS) said, “He who lets the people hear of his good deeds intentionally, to win their praise, Allah will let people know his real intention (on the Day of Resurrection), and he who does good things in public to show off and win the praise of the people, Allah will disclose his real intention (and humiliate him).” (Sahih Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 76, Hadith 506)

The Prophet Mohammad said that one of the seven groups of people that will be granted shade on the Day of Judgment includes the one who gives charity but hides it, so that even his left hand does not know what his right hand has spent. "

2.The Status Of Women in Islam

3. Honnor Killing is a murder, it's a cultural thing that happened to be done by certain Muslims. Capital punishment in Islam (for premeditated murders or terrorism) can only be carried out by states.

4. FGM predates islam. It is not an obligation in Islam (although not prohibited either). Female circumcisions in Muslim world mostly practised wrongly, Just follow the tradition without looking what Islam says about it.
Maryam Dad
Posted: Friday, December 4, 2015 4:13:24 AM

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Drag0nspeaker once told something about his niece/nephew who married a Pakistani, there was a 7 day Islamic wedding ceremony. That's a sample how easy to mix up between religion and culture or tradition. There is no 7 day wedding ceremony in Islam.

I have told JC that being a Muslim not granted heaven and being non Muslim not granted hell. Muslims can do wrong just like other human being.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Friday, December 4, 2015 1:28:18 PM

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Maryam Dad wrote:
Drag0nspeaker once told something about his niece/nephew who married a Pakistani, there was a 7 day Islamic wedding ceremony. That's a sample how easy to mix up between religion and culture or tradition. There is no 7 day wedding ceremony in Islam.

I have told JC that being a Muslim not granted heaven and being non Muslim not granted hell. Muslims can do wrong just like other human being.


Maryam Dad, I think you are saying that being a Muslim does not guarantee you a place in Heaven and that being a non-Muslim does not automatically consign you to Hell. If that is what you are saying then I admire your wisdom and frankness. It is rare, in my (limited) experience to meet a Muslim who will acknowledge such a possibility.
Hope123
Posted: Friday, December 4, 2015 9:09:26 PM

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jacobusmaximus wrote:
Maryam Dad wrote:
Drag0nspeaker once told something about his niece/nephew who married a Pakistani, there was a 7 day Islamic wedding ceremony. That's a sample how easy to mix up between religion and culture or tradition. There is no 7 day wedding ceremony in Islam.

I have told JC that being a Muslim not granted heaven and being non Muslim not granted hell. Muslims can do wrong just like other human being.


Maryam Dad, I think you are saying that being a Muslim does not guarantee you a place in Heaven and that being a non-Muslim does not automatically consign you to Hell. If that is what you are saying then I admire your wisdom and frankness. It is rare, in my (limited) experience to meet a Muslim who will acknowledge such a possibility.


Kudos to you, Maryam Dad!

Would you as a Christian say the same, JCB? I have never heard a Christian in my extensive exposure admit it and usually one even has to be the 'right' denomination of Christian too.
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 4:03:35 AM

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Hope123 wrote:
jacobusmaximus wrote:
Maryam Dad wrote:
Drag0nspeaker once told something about his niece/nephew who married a Pakistani, there was a 7 day Islamic wedding ceremony. That's a sample how easy to mix up between religion and culture or tradition. There is no 7 day wedding ceremony in Islam.

I have told JC that being a Muslim not granted heaven and being non Muslim not granted hell. Muslims can do wrong just like other human being.


Maryam Dad, I think you are saying that being a Muslim does not guarantee you a place in Heaven and that being a non-Muslim does not automatically consign you to Hell. If that is what you are saying then I admire your wisdom and frankness. It is rare, in my (limited) experience to meet a Muslim who will acknowledge such a possibility.


Kudos to you, Maryam Dad!

Would you as a Christian say the same, JCB? I have never heard a Christian in my extensive exposure admit it and usually one even has to be the 'right' denomination of Christian too.


Hmm, I've opened a can of worms here, I think!

Taking the modern usage of the word 'Christian', it can be said that not all Christians will go to Heaven. I know many 'Christians' who do not believe that Christ is the Son of God. That is to deny Christ which puts you on the wrong side of Heaven, even if you are faithful in every other way. So yes, there are Christians who are not guaranteed a place in Heaven. Equally, there are many people in the world who are not recognised as Christians and do not regard themselves as such, but who, by the Grace of God, will be with Christ in Paradise. How do I know this? In Luke chapter 23 there was a thief being crucified at the same time as Jesus. He recognised Jesus as the Christ and said so with his dying words. And Jesus told him that he would, that very day, be in Heaven with him.


Edit - PS
"I have never heard a Christian in my extensive exposure admit it and usually one even has to be the 'right' denomination of Christian too." - You can't say that any more.Whistle

TheParser
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 8:45:26 AM
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According to the media, the massacres in Paris (and in California) will cause some very interesting results in the upcoming French elections.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 11:22:27 AM

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No, no, Jacobus. You can't get away with that, with splitting Christians into groups. That is what I meant by needing to even be in the "right" denomination to be included in the 'kingdom of heaven'.

I am asking you personally - if someone follows your brand that you have described here many times as being Christ centered (not sure if you think it is a new idea or is just going back to basics) are you definitely going to heaven?

Actually, I think you already answered by pointing out that only those who believe in Christ as you do are the favored ones. You made my point.

So I still can't say I have heard a Christian say this his particular brand of Christianity will not guarantee him/her a place in heaven.

BTW - I have never heard of Chrisitians who don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. (Must be some Scottish group. Whistle You know me and my sense of humor by now and that my husband is of Scottish descent so don't be offended.) Believing that Christ is the Son of God is the core of Christianity, so anyone who does not believe that is not really a Christian. What would be the point. It makes no sense. But if I were to find one such person and ask one of them if they are going to heaven, I wonder what their answer would be.

You can't answer for them using your POV - point of view.

Edited at the end to include an idea.

jacobusmaximus
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 1:43:49 PM

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No, no, Jacobus. You can't get away with that, with splitting Christians into groups. That is what I meant by needing to even be in the "right" denomination to be included in the 'kingdom of heaven'.
I cannot see that I am splitting Christians into groups, but I can see that I have been mincing my words here. When I say ‘Christians’ and Christians I am saying that the first lot – those in inverted commas – are not Christian Believers at all. There is only one definition of Christians, and that is those who believe the fundamental truths of the Bible, including, and especially, all of the claims that Jesus made for himself. I know lots of ‘Christians’ – good people, pillars of the Church, generous and kind. Some of them are my friends. But they insist that Jesus is not the Son of God, but a Son of God, just like the rest of us. That, Hope, is just one example of how ‘Christians’ deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, and if you don’t believe that Christ is God incarnate then you are not a Christian.
I am asking you personally - if someone follows your brand that you have described here many times as being Christ centered (not sure if you think it is a new idea or is just going back to basics) are you definitely going to heaven?
It is not my brand, but a Biblical truth that God came into the World in the Person of Jesus. He died on that Cross to break the power of sin over mankind (humankind if Romany reads this). In this way he became our Saviour. But we have to accept his offer of Salvation by accepting him as Lord of our lives and that means believing in him; believing all his claims for himself. If one waters down the Biblical account of Jesus in any way one is rejecting him. My ‘Christian’ friends, and many who are not my friends, do this in a variety of ways. The first is to insist that Jesus is not the Son but a son of God. Another common claim is that Jesus didn’t really die on the Cross but merely swooned and came round later in the cool of the tomb. Another is that Jesus didn’t really turn the water into wine at the wedding in Cana but his charismatic presence gave the guests such a lift that they thought they were drinking the finest wine. These ‘Christians’ can, and do, explain away everything that is supernatural about Jesus. They encourage the belief that Jesus was really just a very special man who could do wonderful things because he was so Holy. They suffocate the truth about the Trinity, about the Immaculate Conception and about the Resurrection of Christ. They cannot bring themselves to believe in these truths and they don’t want anyone else to believe in them either. They are not Christians and they are not going to Heaven when their life is finished in this world. True Believers – those who have accepted Christ as Saviour and Lord – are already in the Kingdom of God and will spend eternity in Heaven.
Actually, I think you already answered by pointing out that only those who believe in Christ as you do are the favored ones. You made my point.
Not as I do, Hope. My faith is of no use to anyone else. People must believe in Christ for themselves. They have their own sins to account for, their own unbeliefs to overcome. I have my own to take to Jesus.
So I still can't say I have heard a Christian say this his particular brand of Christianity will not guarantee him/her a place in heaven.
And you never will, because no-one has a particular brand of Christianity. But all who believe that Christ died for them will have, by the Grace of God, a place in Heaven.
BTW - I have never heard of Chrisitians who don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. (Must be some Scottish group. Whistle You know me and my sense of humor by now and that my husband is of Scottish descent so don't be offended.) Believing that Christ is the Son of God is the core of Christianity, so anyone who does not believe that is not really a Christian. What would be the point. It makes no sense. But if I were to find one such person and ask one of them if they are going to heaven, I wonder what their answer would be.
I am not offended Hope, but I am amazed that you have never heard the argument about The Son of God v a Son of God. It is as old as the hills and as controversial as the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection. It crosses all denominations and splits Congregations. It is such a touchy subject that Church people don’t talk about it, so maybe that’s why you haven’t heard about it.
You can't answer for them using your POV - point of view.
It is not my point of view, Hope. It is what Scripture teaches and if I am to be proved wrong it will need to be from a new understanding of Scripture.


Edited at the end to include an idea.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 3:44:58 PM

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In the Christianity which I was taught as a child (by Catholic nuns and monks), if a new-born baby, totally innocent, died without being actually baptised as a Catholic by a priest, then that child would not be accepted in Heaven by Christ, nor accepted in Hell by the devil. They would just float about in Limbo.

**************
The thing which I see lacking in the Ayatollah's message is the reverse injunction - he does not tell the youth of Muslim countries to look objectively at western culture and ignore the propaganda they hear in their own media, and from their own religious leaders.

If this was done by all the youth of both East and West (and the middle!), a lot of the current troubles would be over.

There would still be some problems with the idiot Catholic/Protestant/Muslim zealots of Ireland/America/Britain/France/"IS" and everywhere, but they would not be able to infect non-idiots.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 4:12:29 PM

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Digressing even more -

Change brand to denomination and answer, JCB.

Saying how many Christians do not believe Jesus is The Son of God is like asking how many Canadians do not hold Canadian citizenship and have never been to Canada. I agree with you on that one. Weird. Every sermon I have ever sat through has Jesus as The Son of God. Anglican, Baptist, United, Presbyterian, Gospel Hall Brethren - I may have even forgotten some. I have been to Mass too but it was in Latin so who knows what they said. :)

So those friends of yours who just agree with the teachings of Jesus are just adherents. Or Jewish. They are not Christians. However, you repeat again - "they won't go to heaven but since I believe all the things I mentioned in that long second paragraph - I not only will go but I am already there." Me, myself, and I am going. (a paraphrase of your words but I put is quotes so you know I mean the words to be yours.) My point made over and over again. You believe that the people who believe in the Biblical Jesus (as you do) are the only ones going to heaven. Or if you want to deny others, then, you yourself are going to be the only one there is heaven. But you have said YOU will be and are there. I have no idea why you are arguing with me on that point. ;)

I actually believe a lot of what you say "THEY" say about Jesus being a good man with some good ideas. I don't believe it was a virgin birth, or that he rose from the dead, or changed water into wine, or the fishes and bread fable. But I don't consider myself to be a Christian any more and the only reason I have to go to a Baptist church tonight is to hear Christmas music because my son asked me to go with them. And I do like music.

That their faith is the only true one that allows them to get into this place called heaven is how 99 % of religious people think, no matter what religion you believe in, so why don't you just admit it? Why would anyone believe in religion if they didn't get some benefit out of it, unless you are going purely as a social club.

As for your saying it is not your POV but that it is what the Bible says - does that mean you don't adopt what the Bible says to be your perspective? Semantics - you are not answering me at all.
Hope123
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 4:19:53 PM

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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
In the Christianity which I was taught as a child (by Catholic nuns and monks), if a new-born baby, totally innocent, died without being actually baptised as a Catholic by a priest, then that child would not be accepted in Heaven by Christ, nor accepted in Hell by the devil. They would just float about in Limbo.

**************
The thing which I see lacking in the Ayatollah's message is the reverse injunction - he does not tell the youth of Muslim countries to look objectively at western culture and ignore the propaganda they hear in their own media, and from their own religious leaders.

If this was done by all the youth of both East and West (and the middle!), a lot of the current troubles would be over.

There would still be some problems with the idiot Catholic/Protestant/Muslim zealots of Ireland/America/Britain/France/"IS" and everywhere, but they would not be able to infect non-idiots.


Thanks for getting us back on topic, Dragon. I agree. The speech is all from one point of view when it should be a message to all on both sides. And we learn by example so both sides should watch what they teach the children through their actions.
Khalid Sami
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 5:12:19 PM
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1. Non-Muslims who live a pious life AND have never heard of Islam or have a minimum knowledge of Islam will, at God's will, go to heaven.
The Quran, chapter Al-Baqarah, verse 62 says the following: "Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - Those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."
2. Heaven is rewarded to someone actually because of God's grace, not by that person's good deeds during his life.
In a hadith narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah, Muhammad said that the angel Jibril (Gabriel) had just come to him and conveyed the following story: There was a man who had been pious all his life (it is not told, what the man's religion was). He has just died and he thought that he would enter heaven because of his good deeds.
In the Judgment Day, there will be a conversation between this man and God. God shall say to him "I shall reward you heaven because of my grace". The man shall ask, "Not because of my good deeds?". God shall reply, "No. The amount of your good deeds could not even match the amount of the favours that you had received from me -your health, welfare, etc- for which you thanked me. So in no way will they even be enough to earn you my heaven."
From the story above we could see that the man's good deeds have pleased God and proved his good heart, worthy of heaven. But in no way would his good deeds be enough to earn him a heaven. It was rather because of God's grace after He was convinced by the person's quality as conveyed through his good deeds.
3. At any case, rewarding heaven to someone is ultimately God's, and only God's, prerogative right. He can even reward it to people who are sinful in front of our human eyes.
There is an islamic story of a Jew who had killed 99 people during his life. One day he regretted and planned to meet a wise man in order to ask for advice, what he could do to atone for his sins. On his way meeting the wise man, the sinful man died of accident.
If this man's fate should be decided by the amount of good deeds he had done, the story tells us that he could in no way go to heaven. But then, an angel revealed that God would not take this man's past sins into account. Instead, He would appreciate this man's will to repent by the end of his life and reward heaven because of that.
So, while we may think that a person is sinful and may go to hell because of his sins, God, who knows things better including about that person in particular, might have different considerations.
Axel Bear
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 5:40:18 PM

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Joined: 4/5/2015
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The source for the above post has not been acknowledged but has only been cut and pasted.

If anyone is interested it can found at:

https://www.quora.com/According-to-Islam-will-non-Muslims-ever-go-to-heaven
Khalid Sami
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 5:41:05 PM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/2012
Posts: 1,918
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Unless Western powers show they care about human rights in Palestine they will be exposed as hypocrites.
Some Muftis of Gulf countries, friends of the US regime, by the way, call for the demolition of all churches in the Arabian peninsula. Comaparing them with Ayatollah, this one would look like an angel. Most terrorists come from countries friend of the US.
Khalid Sami
Posted: Saturday, December 5, 2015 5:48:01 PM
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Joined: 5/29/2012
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Thank you, Axel Bear. Keep up with the good work.
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