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This day in History, 68 years ago Options
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:10:35 AM
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The bombing of Pearl Harbour in 1942, followed by the bombing of Darwin by the Japanese.

The war in the Pacific was drastically changed by these events, bringing the US into the Pacific campaigns.

Australian soldiers and airmen were fighting the war in Europe, and defending Britain, when our own country was bombed.

Sir Winston Churchill was reluctant to release the Australian Military to come back to defend Australia, as he felt the war in the Pacific was a lost cause.

Little did he know.
martyg
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 1:46:19 AM
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1942 missed it by a year

On December 7th, 1941, before many Americans were even awake, the Japanese Navy struck the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor
chitta chatta
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:26:58 AM
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Tovarish said: "Sir Winston Churchill was reluctant to release the Australian Military to come back to defend Australia, as he felt the war in the Pacific was a lost cause....... Little did he know"

C/c replies: MANY times in history, conquerors and military-statisticians have under-estimated that "smaller", also means "weaker"!

AnthA1G
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 2:34:05 AM

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martyg wrote:
1942 missed it by a year

On December 7th, 1941, before many Americans were even awake, the Japanese Navy struck the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor


I say she missed it by 24 days.Anxious

I didn't know this; the situation in Australia during WWII. Is that why Japan occupied so many islands before the US declared war on the Japanese? They never said anything about this in "The Pacific". If they did, I missed it.

On the news: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/120710dnmetpearlharbor.369ac7a.html
Dick Farnsworth
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:51:56 AM
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AnthA1G wrote:
[quote=martyg]1942 missed it by a year

On December 7th, 1941, before many Americans were even awake, the Japanese Navy struck the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor


Um...they attacked at 0730 hours, Honolulu time. UTC-10 hours is six hours behind Washington DC time, or 1:30 pm on Sunday afternoon. Granted most people sleep in on Sunday, but past noon? I don't think so.
pedro
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 4:33:08 AM
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You don't mess with Darwin
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:08:38 AM
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Have you seen the size of a Darwin stubbie?

Please correct my errors,
What did I miss by 24 days<
I will accept the 1 year off 1941/42.

How many Brownie Points do I get for the Posting?

We will forever be in the US's debt for your intervention in the Pacific.

Just another note, when the Aussie Troops did come home'ish, they came back in winter uniforms from the

European climate, to fight in New Guinea, a tropical/monsoonal country.

My apology for getting the year wrong, but I wasn't born then, so it is accumulated military history.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:13:05 AM

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What the Japanese did to islanders and prisoners was just as evil as what the Nazi concentration camps did, but everyone has kept a lot quieter about it. Economic power, maybe, you can deal with Germans because they are not the 'Nazis' but the Japanese had no-one else to blame.

My parents knew a boy who was brought up in Japan after the war and taught in standard school history that Japan had won it! Firmly believed it, had a bit of a shock and a hard time for his arrogance when he found out the rest of the world didn't agree!
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:33:00 AM
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This has been a Political sticking point with Australian Japanese relations, since the war.

China has not forgotten the invasion of their country and the treatment that they also received.

yes, I do know that Japanese history books have re-written history and only remember the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Those atomic bombs saved the lives of many people, and saved Pacific Rim countries from occupation.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:52:56 AM

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I thought that part of the motivation for the bombings was to make Japan surrender quickly to the US, because Russia, having finished invading half of Europe, was about to invade Japan, and the state Japan was in the Russians would have won quickly, and controlled warm water ports and the whole of the Pacific, which America was keen to avoid.

And it is not just China, the Koreans aren't too keen on them either. What they did to the islanders is most evil though, because they told them all the awful things the Americans would do and persuaded them to kill themselves as the Japanese pulled out and the US invaded. No military point to it, just evil racial arrogance and a wish to destroy simple island people they considered sub-human.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:04:49 AM
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thar, the Russian re-direction may well be so. What I know is mainly from a Pacific point of view.

The Japanese considered anyone captured as sub-human, as they had the Honor Concept of Hari-Kari or the Warrior Code if captured.

I shudder to think of the Kamikaze Pilots flying into ships, the original suicide bombers.

The Military History of the Pacific is more than awful
Angus
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:47:41 AM
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Here is the "day-after" New York Times front page and headline story.
thar
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 7:19:55 AM

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or waatch Pearl Harbor and Australia, I am sure they are historically accurate..

and you could argue the bombing of Pearl Habour (and by the same expansion Darwin) saved Britain and the allies in Europe, and if they had fallen so could have British Africa and Asia, and therefore Australia, which would have had a hard time even if it were not actually invaded.

Hitler probably lost the war the minute he invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, but the Japanese actions certainly didn't help in the long run.

The Americans were very happy to keep out of the war, and do roaring trade, until they got pulled in by the Japanese.
MarySM
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 7:41:32 AM
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Tovarish wrote:
This has been a Political sticking point with Australian Japanese relations, since the war.

China has not forgotten the invasion of their country and the treatment that they also received.

yes, I do know that Japanese history books have re-written history and only remember the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Those atomic bombs saved the lives of many people, and saved Pacific Rim countries from occupation.


I know that many more people would have died because the war would have continued. Yet a part of me feels that the US was wrong to unlease nuclear bombs on civilian targets. When we were attacked it was a military target the Japanese hit. Having read so many stories of those that survived, it really is heart-breaking and we need to do everything possible to avoid the use of these weapons again.
richsap
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 7:46:19 AM
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As an aside, the wife and I spent our honeymoon in Hawaii and got to visit the USS Arizona memorial site. Quite sobering, even though the attack and following war were well before our time. My wife, being the history buff and extrovert that she is, made the acquaintance of and shook hands with one of the few remaining Pearl Harbor survivors who just happened to be visiting that day. Quite the eerie sight to see oil still floating to the surface after all these years.
excaelis
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:00:47 AM

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There is a strong body of opinion that Roosevelt allowed the attack to proceed. He believed that the U.S. should have been in the war already, but his cabinet and the American people were anti-interventionist. A direct attack on mainland America left no option but to enter the conflict.
martyg
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:02:11 AM
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@dick farnsworth - please don't shoot the messenger.
<Um...they attacked at 0730 hours, Honolulu time. UTC-10 hours is six hours behind Washington DC time, or 1:30 pm on Sunday afternoon. Granted most people sleep in on Sunday, but past noon? I don't think so.>

my post was just cut and pasted out of the below article.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Facts-on-Pearl-Harbor&id=1582085
martyg
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:21:07 AM
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@tovarish
<My apology for getting the year wrong, but I wasn't born then, so it is accumulated military history.>

there was no malice intended in my correction of the dates posted. fortunately or unfortunately, i was alive when pearl harbor was bombed. very young then but still remember certain things clearly. for people who were alive then, pearl harbor day is engraved on their memory banks as much or more as 9/11//01.

arguably there has never been another major conflict, where the usa was involved, that the entire population supported. patriotism was at a level that probably will never be replicated.
wercozy
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 11:51:23 AM
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martyq, never say never.

In those days, radio brought people together. Journalists did not have a hidden agenda, and there were no sneaky presidents using the military to secure their family oil in the Middle East. Today we have politicians willing to divide the nation, strip people of national pride and patriotism just so their political party can win something.

In the olden days, once the president was elected, all parties were encouraged to support the president. Not today. Today, the Republican party has vilified, and condemned a perfectly decent gentleman.

Now, back to the topic. It's hard to believe Pearl Harbor was 69 years ago.
excaelis
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 12:49:01 PM

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We are as far ( temporally ) from 1941 as 1941 was from 1872: Grant was re-elected as President, and the U.S. General Amnesty Act, pardoning most ex-Confederates, was enacted. 1872 was also the year that Whistler painted " The Artist's Mother', one of most iconic American paintings ever. The Brooklyn Bridge also opened that year.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:06:57 PM

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This day 71 years ago the Finns, in the Winter War, after the first week of Soviet invasion, started to strike back and bit to the bone in Tolvajärvi.
Wanderer
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 3:40:37 PM

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Thanks for the link JJ. I had known some about the Winter War but that was interesting. Always learning, but I'll never be able to pronounce Tolvajarvi.
tusk
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:09:28 PM
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This day in history.
Investigator
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:28:59 PM
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Tovarish, you are not in our debt, you are our comrades in arms, our brothers and sisters. You have stood beside us in every major conflict since the start of the twentieth century until today. We have common history and common origins. We are as siblings, we may squabble but if you strike one of us, you strike both of us.

I hope we will always stand together and fight together for what is right and just.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:33:17 PM

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Thank you tusk. I picked up one interesting phenomena of the list:
1988 – Yasser Arafat recognizes the right of Israel to exist.
Raia Dalila
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 5:35:12 PM
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Tovarish wrote:
thar, the Russian re-direction may well be so. What I know is mainly from a Pacific point of view.

The Japanese considered anyone captured as sub-human, as they had the Honor Concept of Hari-Kari or the Warrior Code if captured.

I shudder to think of the Kamikaze Pilots flying into ships, the original suicide bombers.

The Military History of the Pacific is more than awful

Spilberg made a movie about the invasion of China, and i cant remember the title.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:01:22 PM
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JJ, the news today is the disclosure of Stalin ordering the shooting of a large group of Polish Officers.

Weather our countries were fighting the Russian, Germans or the Japanese during WW11.

The atrocities in all our countries were horrendous.

Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 6:40:45 PM

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Tovarish wrote:
JJ, the news today is the disclosure of Stalin ordering the shooting of a large group of Polish Officers.

Weather our countries were fighting the Russian, Germans or the Japanese during WW11.

The atrocities in all our countries were horrendous.


Sad to say: during the WW2 Stalin insisted and got Britain and the Commonwealth Nations to declare the war against Finland. Not that there ever was acts of war between us, but after the expell of Soviet Union from the League of Nations Finns waited a bit more understanding. The Baltic Nations Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were just swallowed. Perhaps everyone expected Finland to be swallowed as well. Finns thought otherwise.
Tovarish
Posted: Tuesday, December 7, 2010 10:18:56 PM
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Yes JJ, it smarts a wee bit when your country is regarded as collateral damage.

What is the historical reason for the Commonwealth agreeing to declare war on Finland? or have I just answered my own question, to appease Russia against the common enemy, Germany.

The dividing up of countries post-WW11, always gives me the visuals of,

"One for me and two for you" etc, & "oh, and do we really have to ask these countries if they are OK with this?"
Tovarish
Posted: Friday, December 10, 2010 5:26:56 AM
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Investigator, thank you for your kind words, sorry I took a while to get back to you.
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