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At the end I feel constrained to confess that there is nothing in all that I formerly believed to be true, of which I cannot... Options
Daemon
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 12:00:00 AM
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At the end I feel constrained to confess that there is nothing in all that I formerly believed to be true, of which I cannot in some measure doubt.

Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
thar
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:31:07 AM

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just goes to show, taking scientific questioning to its logical conclusion can really bum you out. far better to be a bigotted fanatic who holds on to their beliefs and refuses to listen to any criticism or questioning!
pedro
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:50:51 AM
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"At the end I feel constrained to confess that there is nothing in all that I formerly believed to be true, of which I cannot in some measure doubt."

This is midway through his 'method of doubt' in his 'Meditations' whereby he wanted to strip bare everything in his conscious mind that he could not be certain of to see what was left. What was left was the famous cogito ergo sum How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.
Epiphileon
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:43:22 AM

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pedro wrote:

How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.

Actually Pedro, you need not be exasperated, personally I doubt he believed any of that, but that it was a snow job to keep him out of the hands of the inquisition. Remember people were being burned at the stake for heresy, and a contemporary of his had been put under house arrest, and a promised penalty of death if he ever wrote anything again.
pedro
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:05:54 AM
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[quote=EpiphileonActually Pedro, you need not be exasperated, personally I doubt he believed any of that, but that it was a snow job to keep him out of the hands of the inquisition. Remember people were being burned at the stake for heresy, and a contemporary of his had been put under house arrest, and a promised penalty of death if he ever wrote anything again.[/quote]

I used to think so (it was Bruno and Galileo you alluded to I assume). His ideas on duality of mind/body, however, inferred a soul which he believed humans had but animals didn't (which enabled him to cheerfully dissect them without guilt.) It is tricky for us in these secular times to realise how infused with religion past times were. Descarte's God expressed himself to him through equations but I suppose a scientific mind pondering on the rack or worse might have been a persuasive factor.
karkuss
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:35:25 AM
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At least he is sure about something.
MarySM
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:39:59 AM
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thar wrote:
just goes to show, taking scientific questioning to its logical conclusion can really bum you out. far better to be a bigotted fanatic who holds on to their beliefs and refuses to listen to any criticism or questioning!


Applause Applause
Funny!
Marissa La Faye Isolde
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:27:18 AM
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I think the mind/rational reasoning is over rated.
I think it is only part of the equation. Relying
upon *only* the mind leads one to (I believe)
erroneous conclusions. I think the mind is only
a tool that the psyche uses to to filter, sift,
organize data etc. into a semblance that is more
easily understood in perhaps a more simplified
translation.
Seeker
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:20:03 AM
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Epiphileon wrote:
pedro wrote:

How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.

Actually Pedro, you need not be exasperated, personally I doubt he believed any of that, but that it was a snow job to keep him out of the hands of the inquisition. Remember people were being burned at the stake for heresy, and a contemporary of his had been put under house arrest, and a promised penalty of death if he ever wrote anything again.


I agree Epi - smart move on his part.
Raia Dalila
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 1:11:18 PM
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Angel
thar wrote:
just goes to show, taking scientific questioning to its logical conclusion can really bum you out. far better to be a bigotted fanatic who holds on to their beliefs and refuses to listen to any criticism or questioning!
I admire your answer!
worldsclyde
Posted: Friday, November 12, 2010 1:24:59 PM
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I like to think that he is the father of all agnostics, even if he didn't mean to be. "I think, therefore I am", (everything else is an assumption).
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 12:46:27 PM
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Silenced
karkuss wrote:
At least he is sure about something.
is better not answer sometimes
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 1:58:03 PM
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Angel
thar wrote:
just goes to show, taking scientific questioning to its logical conclusion can really bum you out. far better to be a bigotted fanatic who holds on to their beliefs and refuses to listen to any criticism or questioning!
You have just defined ISABEL LA CATHOLIQUE, Qween of Spain, She who started the Inquisition! Almost defined i mean. She put an end to the Arab conquest, whos presence made it the most fertile era for the Spanish Culture, Poetry, Philosophy, Architecture, Music(flamengo), and the most beautyfull songs of Jewish cantors, their legacy Was enormous. The al- el became part of The Spanish language. Alhambra is One example of their leguacys. It was an Era of Culture and knowledge. I am quoting all this, to mark the compleet dark contrary effect that Catholicisme brougth to Europe.
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:29:28 PM
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Speak to the hand
pedro wrote:
"At the end I feel constrained to confess that there is nothing in all that I formerly believed to be true, of which I cannot in some measure doubt."

This is midway through his 'method of doubt' in his 'Meditations' whereby he wanted to strip bare everything in his conscious mind that he could not be certain of to see what was left. What was left was the famous cogito ergo sum How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.
Mathematics are the making of the Univers, Descartes had a gift, as Einstein had a gift of being a Genius. (He would have been hung like they hungd the poor cats in the Inquisition). Descartes did not ''managed to emerge from that'' via nothing ''dubious''. Science and mathematics are in harmonie with the Univers, wich made Einstein say ''when looking at all the marvels of the Univers, I wonder about God'' (something like that).
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:32:57 PM
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Not talking
Daemon wrote:
<script>add2all('quote')</script><img align=left width="100" height="106" src="http://img.tfd.com/IOD/descartes.jpg">At the end I feel constrained to confess that there is nothing in all that I formerly believed to be true, of which I cannot in some measure doubt.<br><br><a href="http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Descartes%2c+Ren%e9">Rene Descartes</a> (1596-1650)
It is better to doubt than not to doubt!
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:04:49 PM
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Shhh
Epiphileon wrote:
pedro wrote:

How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.

Actually Pedro, you need not be exasperated, personally I doubt he believed any of that, but that it was a snow job to keep him out of the hands of the inquisition. Remember people were being burned at the stake for heresy, and a contemporary of his had been put under house arrest, and a promised penalty of death if he ever wrote anything again.
Mr.Epiphyl.. you were thinking about ''Bruno and Galileo'' as Mr.Pedro reffered to? You were wrong to console him let him be ''exasperated'', all exasperates Him. Because now you are talking nonsense about a ''snow job'' [what is that anyway?] Your imagination is not Cartesian! How can a contemporary of Descartes be; not only Galilleo but a second contemporary; Bruno? Han?
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:11:41 PM
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Joined: 10/11/2010
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Angel
Marissa La Faye Isolde wrote:
I think the mind/rational reasoning is over rated.
I think it is only part of the equation. Relying
upon *only* the mind leads one to (I believe)
erroneous conclusions. I think the mind is only
a tool that the psyche uses to to filter, sift,
organize data etc. into a semblance that is more
easily understood in perhaps a more simplified
translation.
What about Mind and Soul? Dont judge Descarts as he was a laboratory rat or mouse, I dont care
Raia Dalila
Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:17:54 PM
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Joined: 10/11/2010
Posts: 245
Neurons: 278
Location: Quebec-Canada
Shhh
Seeker wrote:
Epiphileon wrote:
pedro wrote:

How he managed to emerge from that ,via some ancient and rather dubious 'proofs' of God's existence, to believe that science and mathematics were somehow sanctioned by the almighty used to exasperate me, as did his dualistic view of mind and body. he left a decent mathematical legacy though.

Actually Pedro, you need not be exasperated, personally I doubt he believed any of that, but that it was a snow job to keep him out of the hands of the inquisition. Remember people were being burned at the stake for heresy, and a contemporary of his had been put under house arrest, and a promised penalty of death if he ever wrote anything again.


I agree Epi - smart move on his part.
Seeker, dont seek more trouble!
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