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rosr12
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 3:27:29 AM
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hi everybody and I hope you are fine


in a few days I have presentation about this matter:


Adaptation. A proof of changeability across time and genres. William Shakespeare’s source(s) of Macbeth and William Davenant’s adaptation of the same play into an operatic “tragedie a machines”. Further examples of adaptations within the same nation and across nations (Dr. Faustus, Antony and Cleopatra, The tempest, King Lear, Othello, Hamlet etc…)

so, could you please help your new friend by giving her any information about this matter and sure I'll do it but I need to be a unique student

or what does he want me to discuss exactly??

thank you in advanced Drool



Romany
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:09:08 AM
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Wow girl! You have certainly been presented with some rather advanced academic language, haven't you? Is it this that is confusing you?

Or is it the fact that if what you have provided is verbatim: - is reproduced exactly as it was given to you - then I understand your confusion: what he wants is not clear at all the way it is written.

So if you would tell us which is your problem I'm sure some of us will help if we can.
rosr12
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:17:40 AM
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Romany wrote:
Wow girl! You have certainly been presented with some rather advanced academic language, haven't you? Is it this that is confusing you?

not at all
Or is it the fact that if what you have provided is verbatim: - is reproduced exactly as it was given to you - then I understand your confusion: what he wants is not clear at all the way it is written.
yes exactly
So if you would tell us which is your problem I'm sure some of us will help if we can.


i mean what he wants is not clear for me

is he talking about showing the differences between the works?

but i don't know and find William Davinan's Macbeth

that's it
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:36:03 AM

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Firstly, I think there's a typo. Should it be notion, not nation?

William Davenant in TFD.

Are you supposed to compare how the themes in one, or some, of these plays are adapted and handled in different times and by different authors?
rosr12
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:43:18 AM
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
Firstly, I think there's a typo. Should it be notion, not nation?

William Davenant in TFD.

Are you supposed to compare how the themes in one, or some, of these plays are adapted and handled in different times and by different authors?


thank you so much

but he means nations

yes exactly as I understand he wants me to compare the themes....but i can not find William's Macbeth

thank you
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:48:43 AM

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A good place to start: Macbeth in TFD.
Romany
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 5:49:24 AM
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Right:- so I guess the theme of the assignment is "Adaptations", yeah?

Now the next bit has me a little unsure: does he want you to:-

a) PROVE that adaptations provide evidence of changeability over time and genre?
b) ILLUSTRATE the ways in which adaptations provide evidence of changeability over time and genre?
c) discuss WHETHER adaptations provide evidence of.....etc. etc.

In any case, he wants you to do one or all of the above first with reference to Shakespeare's and Davenant's plays.

Next he want you to provide some other examples to back up whichever of a), b) or c) he means. This he wants you to do using some other examples of adaptations from one country/culture to another. (like Italian Commedia, perhaps?).

So it seems that, in order to complete this assignment you MUST get hold of the Davenant text. It must be available on-line by now or, if you are near a library, they should have a copy.

Does any of this help?
rosr12
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 6:02:17 AM
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Jyrkkä Jätkä wrote:
A good place to start: Macbeth in TFD.


many thanks darling but i still need Macbeth by William (the text)
rosr12
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 6:05:35 AM
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Romany wrote:
Right:- so I guess the theme of the assignment is "Adaptations", yeah?

Now the next bit has me a little unsure: does he want you to:-

a) PROVE that adaptations provide evidence of changeability over time and genre?
b) ILLUSTRATE the ways in which adaptations provide evidence of changeability over time and genre?
c) discuss WHETHER adaptations provide evidence of.....etc. etc.

In any case, he wants you to do one or all of the above first with reference to Shakespeare's and Davenant's plays.

Next he want you to provide some other examples to back up whichever of a), b) or c) he means. This he wants you to do using some other examples of adaptations from one country/culture to another. (like Italian Commedia, perhaps?).

So it seems that, in order to complete this assignment you MUST get hold of the Davenant text. It must be available on-line by now or, if you are near a library, they should have a copy.

Does any of this help?




what can I say!!!!


you always help me (i've other username sarah but i forget the password)

thanks a bundle darling and I will call him in the evening and I'll see

but frankly you've arranged my ideas because (i was crying Liar )

thanks again
thar
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 6:22:32 AM

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The plays can be played as originally intended, or adapted, and the way they are adapted says a lot about the time and place the adaptor is writing in. So do as much research as you can about the history and background of the adaptor and the social and political conditions at the time, that influenced his new version.

The question is about evidence of change with time and nationality, but to make yourself stand out I would give the best examples I could of why things have been changed!

good luck

Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 6:28:03 AM

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Macbeth
Character and theme summaries, glossary, brief background information, and links to the text.

Davenant and Macbeth in Google.

EDIT:
BTW, there are several links in that TFD article's end. You just need to look at it.

schrodinger's cat
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 4:43:24 PM
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I'll try to just give you a few key points, as I need to go to bed soon:

Shakespeare is a part of literary canon, which means it's played often and in many countries. As a consequences, many different adaptations arose, both, on stage and as movies, each having certain characteristics of its own. When you look at any literary text you must be aware that it does not only matter WHAT was written, but also WHERE and WHEN it was written, since any text represents the era and place in which it was written. People tend to seek parallels between the text and their own lives, or a more general situation in the country, etc. They will take one or more aspects with which they can identify themselves, and stress those.

I am not familiar with the adaptation you mentioned, but here's what you should do.
1. Read both texts.
2. Find the differences and similarities in the themes, environment, plot, etc.
3. Try to explain why those differences arose in regards to the time, place and other circumstances in which the adaptation was written.

As far as Shakespeare's sources went,off the top of my head, I think he used Holinshed's Chronicels of England, and possibly some texts on sorcery to write Macbeth.

Some other adaptations of Shakespeare's plays are Kurosawa's movies. The Throne of Blood is an adaptation of Macbeth set in the time of samurais. I have not seen the movie yet, so I cannot make any more detailed observations. There's also been several adaptations of Hamlet. In one, Hamlet was played by a woman, in another there were 3 actors who played the role of Hamlet, which was a physical representation of his split personality. As for how people found parallels between Shakespeare's plays and their own time, I can mention that some saw the rule of Julius Ceasar, in the play of the same name, as the rule of Communism in Russia and I think some other regime, possibly fascism.

That's just a few examples I can remember, but I'm sure there must be some literature with more of them. Hope this helps.

thar
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 6:44:41 PM

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Is Macbeth not supposed to be influenced by Shakespeare's current events, as Elizabeth was a descendant of Malcolm, so he was portrayed as the good guy even though historically Malcolm was not so good and Macbeth not so bad!
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 7:03:59 PM

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thar wrote:
Is Macbeth not supposed to be influenced by Shakespeare's current events, as Elizabeth was a descendant of Malcolm, so he was portrayed as the good guy even though historically Malcolm was not so good and Macbeth not so bad!


By that time England was ruled by James I (James VI of Scotland). Elizabeth had died in 1603.
excaelis
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 7:07:19 PM

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thar wrote:
Is Macbeth not supposed to be influenced by Shakespeare's current events, as Elizabeth was a descendant of Malcolm, so he was portrayed as the good guy even though historically Malcolm was not so good and Macbeth not so bad!


Close, but no cigar this time, Thar. Elizabeth's ancestry was Welsh and Spanish: Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. The play was written to please the newly crowned James I ( James VI of Scotland ), the first Stuart king, who claimed descent from Malcolm. Unfortunately he was very superstitious, and the incantations of the witches ( said to be authentic ) freaked him out so much that he shut the play down after only nine performances.

Shakespeare's original source material was Holinshed's Chronicles ( as s.cat mentioned ), an entertaining if wildly inaccurate volume of tales from early British history. This would also have been Davenant's primary source too.

Back to the actual question, I think s.cat did an excellent job of narrowing down the best approach.
thar
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 7:16:07 PM

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That certainly makes more sense! that a Scottish king was descended from Scottish kings!

I just googled the Davenant version, and is does not seem a particularly important, just a restoration excuse for a bit of song and dance, taking a familiar play to get people in. Change of genre but for no more reason than that restoration theatre liked a good romp!

More interesting were the Hitchcock and Indian versions mentioned! But I am sure there is an opera of Macbeth. Not Davenant's but a standard classical tragic opera with heaving Italian busoms ( though come to think of it that does sound very restoration!)

edit - I just googled it - Verdi - now that is a change in genre!

and I am sure I saw a film once of Macbeth in modern army/guerrilla/coup style, something like that. (or I might be confusing it with Richard III or something).

the question is, why has Macbeth not been transfered to feature American teenagers ( or has it?). We have seen high school Othello, R+J, Midsummer Night's Dream, Taming, Twelfth Night... so why no Macbeth??

maybe the idea of the conniving murder-inciting wife is too contentious for modern adaptations.
Pocketmole
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 7:45:21 PM
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excaelis wrote:
... Elizabeth's ancestry was Welsh and Spanish: Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon.


Close, but no cigar, excaelis. Shhh Elizabeth was actually the daughter of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn, whose ancestry seems to be very British. Henry and Catherine's daughter was Mary - later Bloody Mary.


rosr12: a couple of years ago, I attended a production of Macbeth at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa. This version set the play in WWII Britain. You may want to refer to this, or use it as a comparison. Here is a link to the Study Guide kindly provided by the NAC for teachers and students: http://www.nac-cna.ca/pdf/eth/0708/macbeth_guide.pdf The discussion of the WWII setting (i.e., adaptability) begins on page 14. Hope this helps!

excaelis
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 8:10:21 PM

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Oops. I guess I'm in the no smoking section today !! Sorry Thar.
thar
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 8:23:44 PM

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excaelis wrote:
Oops. I guess I'm in the no smoking section today !! Sorry Thar.


I think mixing up Elizabeth and bloody Mary is a definite head chopping offence. Certainly get you banned from at least one heaven!
Romany
Posted: Monday, October 4, 2010 11:17:48 PM
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I realised as soon as I read the post that you were "Sarah" - a person's way of expressing themselves identifies them as much as their fingerprints! Also, having had problems with that particular teacher before, I thought it was the same guy: he really does lack clarity, doesn't he?

I hope by now you have sorted out which particular line he wants you to take but am a little worried: you say this is due in a few days? It's an awfully big project which involves a lot of research - the kind of thing I, personally, would set as a mid-semester assignment thus giving quite a few weeks to prepare. It seems as though your guy is expecting miracles.

Anyway, best of luck. And don't get yourself all worked up (upset)and crying - just pop along and see us when you are in a pickle (a mess/confusion)...see how many people are here to help you! Cheers.
sarah111
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 3:09:34 AM
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thank you so much, you are the best friends ever:)

I've called the Prof and he said that he want me to read the texts and find out the differences then what causes adaptation??

when and where did it written/??(how can I know)Think

thanks a bundle

Romy I'll try to not to cryAnxious
sarah111
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 3:19:29 AM
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loooooooool

thank God

thank my best friends

could you please check this

http://www.lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/repository/90001047.pdf

is it useful?

I think it would be fine

Isn't??
thar
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 3:52:55 AM

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sarah111 wrote:
loooooooool

thank God

thank my best friends

could you please check this

http://www.lib.kobe-u.ac.jp/repository/90001047.pdf

is it useful?

I think it would be fine

Isn't??


I had trouble loading the pdf so I have not read it all, but I won't let that stop me from commenting!

It seems to be a lot about the physical staging of the play, and the interaction with the audience. Make sure you cover some other areas about adaptation, or your lecturer will know you have relied too much on one source.

Also, I guess this is a Literature class not a history one, but every adaptation reflects the culture of the time, so if you want to stand out from the crowd, explain why Davenant made changes, in terms of his times and theatrical influences, and audience expectations.

just my view though, and if you don't have much time...

sarah111
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 4:23:22 AM
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that's great!

May God bless you and i won't copy all of the research but at the same time I will depend on it

could you please how can I know <<explain why Davenant made changes, in terms of his times and theatrical influences, and audience expectations.>>

as it is a good question and I am sure it will help me a lot

thanks in advanced
excaelis
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 11:48:18 AM

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Shakespeare's play was written in 1606, Davenant's in 1667. Between those dates there was a Civil War, a Protectorate under Cromwell, and in 1660 the Restoration of the Monarchy.

It would be worthwile to think about the differences between their societies before The Civil War and after The Civil War.

The central action of this play concerns the killing of a King; the Civil War also featured the killing of a king.

The killing of Duncan was clearly murder. The killing of King Charles was, to many, murder, whereas to others it was legal.

So in Shakespeare's day no-one would have considered the killing of a king as justifiable, whereas in Davenant's time there was still a sizeable number who believed that the killing of a king could be justified.

I haven't read the Davenant for many, many years, so I'm not sure if this is helpful. Either way, good luck.
thar
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 3:23:28 PM

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excaelis wrote:
Shakespeare's play was written in 1606, Davenant's in 1667. Between those dates there was a Civil War, a Protectorate under Cromwell, and in 1660 the Restoration of the Monarchy.

It would be worthwile to think about the differences between their societies before The Civil War and after The Civil War.

The central action of this play concerns the killing of a King; the Civil War also featured the killing of a king.

The killing of Duncan was clearly murder. The killing of King Charles was, to many, murder, whereas to others it was legal.

So in Shakespeare's day no-one would have considered the killing of a king as justifiable, whereas in Davenant's time there was still a sizeable number who believed that the killing of a king could be justified.

I haven't read the Davenant for many, many years, so I'm not sure if this is helpful. Either way, good luck.


Good points. I have never read Davenant, but can I just say, that even if you cannot find a change in the way the regicide is portrayed, that would still be important.

As exca says, England had executed a king, and then brought one back. Only a few years later they pushed out a king and invited in a new one with fewer powers. The idea of a king being an all-powerful special ruler was being broken.

So, did Davenant reflect this in his adaptation? Or, even more interesting, did he not?. If he had written a new play, it would have reflected the new times. By adapting Macbeth, was he looking back to older times, when the killing of a king was a shocking crime? Was he ignoring the massive changes society had gone through, or looking at an old but powerful story with fresh eyes?

I have no idea what the answer to that is, but it might be something your lecturer has not read a hundred times before!
HWNN1961
Posted: Thursday, October 7, 2010 3:53:27 PM
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This doesn't contribute to the thread directly, but I saw a great adaptation of Macbeth last night starring Patrick Stewart. I forgot how many memorable quotes there are from this play.
excaelis
Posted: Friday, October 8, 2010 2:25:35 PM

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You should try performing it ! Most of the audience is sitting there waiting for the famous bits, so the pressure's on to speak them with absolute precision while finding something new in the text to maintain their interest. Half the time there are a bunch of people whispering the lines along with you !

That happened to John Gielgud, so he leaned over the front of the stage and said, reassuringly, Thankyou, Madam, but I do know the lines. Whistle
thar
Posted: Friday, October 8, 2010 3:26:11 PM

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My vote for one of best lines ever:

If the assassination could trammel up the consequence, and catch with his surcease, success...

It just rolls out, he uses words like a chef uses ingredients, to make something delicious. And I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually the quickest way to express that thought - he doesn't throw words in just for the heck of it.
excaelis
Posted: Friday, October 8, 2010 9:03:53 PM

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As a performer I always liked the section that follows that

.........;that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'd jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgement here;.......


The rhythms are amazing ; but here framed by pauses ; the ebb and flow and echo of bank and shoal; then the almost legalistic pragmatism and duality of But in these cases....Dude was good.
HWNN1961
Posted: Friday, October 8, 2010 9:37:09 PM
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Ex,

My favorite quote:

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.


Rather succintly summed up in one of my favorite movies, "Gladiator":

"We are shadows and dust Maximus....shadows and dust!"
excaelis
Posted: Friday, October 8, 2010 10:13:59 PM

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Rather self-deprecatory of ol' WS, doncha think ?
sarah111
Posted: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:30:11 AM
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many thanks my best friends and I did it well

could you please know the differences between these:

tow qutation from Shakespeare and Devanant and Prof wants the differences :

by Shakespeare:
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips. He's here in double trust;
First, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
Not bear the knife myself. Besides, this Duncan
Hath borne his faculties so meek, hath been
So clear in his great office, that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked new-born babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on the other.


and Davenant:

if it were well when done, then it were well
it were done quickly, if his death might be
without the death of nature in myself,
and killing my own rest, it would suffer,
but deeds of this complexion still return
to plague the doer, and destroy his peace,
yet let me think, he is here in double trust.
first، as I am his Kinsman and his subject
strong both against the deed:then as hi host,
who should against his murder shut the door
not bear the sword myself. Besides this Duncan
has born his faculties so meek, and been
So clear in his great office ,, that his vertues,
Like Angles, plead against so black a deed,
vaulting Ambition! thou o're-leap'st thy self
to fall upon another


I find some differences in pronounces and he also disorded the syntax
what else??
thar
Posted: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:36:55 AM

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Both of us having said those are the best lines D changes them!. Vandal!

S talks about consequence, but that is in the next life.
, D is much more specific, about the consequences to his own peace in this life.
S talks of judgement and fate whereas with D it is more like conscience.

There is much less religious imagery in D. There are angels but not so much heavenly trumpeting and cherubims and damnation. The consequence is feeling guilty and not sleeping, not eternal damnation.

And the king is good in both, but in S it has religious overtones, and killing him is a sacriligious deed.
In D it is wrong to kill him because he is a good king and it is bad form to murder your guest!

Also D has no taste in beautiful language!!
sarah111
Posted: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:58:34 AM
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do you mean that D is better than S??

What's the benefit from changing the pronounces??

I need more comments buddiesApplause
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