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Malayasia Government destroying Hindu Religion Options
secular
Posted: Monday, September 6, 2010 4:00:07 PM
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Location: India
I am shocked to learn that Malaysian Government destroying Hindu temples.
In Wikipedia they say


In August 2010, a Malaysian woman named Siti Hasnah Banggarma was denied the right to convert to Hinduism by a Malaysian court. Banggarma, who was born a Hindu, but was forcibly converted to Islam at a young age, desired to reconvert back to Hinduism and appealed to the courts to recognize her reconversion. The appeal was denied.[



Many Hindu advocacy groups have protested what they allege is a systemic plan of Temple cleansing in Malaysia. The official reason given by the Malaysian government has been that the temples were built "illegally." However, several of the temples were centuries old [3] and predated many mosques which do not receive the same treatment.



martyg
Posted: Monday, September 6, 2010 8:23:27 PM
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sad to say, but most religions are intolerant, in varying degrees. and as your post states, islam is probably at or near the top of the list.

i flew to kuala lumpur indonesia about a dozen years ago. on the plane they handed out warnings, "death to drug traffickers" and "no trading with israel," made my girlfriend and myself very uncomfortable. when we checked into the hotel everything was uneventful and was just like an upscale usa hotel. around kl there were no clothing prohibitions as far as we knew. haven't been back since but guess that things have moved in a different and more religious direction.
chitta chatta
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 6:06:08 AM
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The irony to all this is that if you live in an Islamic-based country, you have little/no rights unless you are a Muslim. Yet, the Muslims are spreading out all over the world and demanding other countries' established cultures MUST comply with "THEIR" faith and abusing our established laws of justice to enforce this.

Just a very small example:-

1) In Australia, you cannot offer pork products at a public meeting without offending them. It is NOT my wish to eat any pork products, but I DON'T demand others not to do so. It is my personal choice (requesting the meat be declared is a more respectful solution).

2) You cannot have Christmas, or Easter celebrations in our schools; nor Santa Claus (not that this one is a problem for me). But, my point is we are NOT obliged to make the same demands on their religious celebrations/faith; it is ironic that WE live here and our pioneers made this country what it is before they arrived to reap the benefits of a fair and just laws/society they don't have where they came from? WHY CLING to something that forced you to come here in the first place, and failed you previously? It's not logical.

Whilst (ironically) they demand their right to follow such things as Ramadan, etc.

3) They INSIST on building (huge) mosques here to house their faiths in our counries', yet they ABSOLUTELY refuse to build churches or temples in their ORIGINAL countries (e.g. Saudi Arabia) where (I believe) if you are not Muslim, you are classified as "infidels" and treated as 2nd class citizens - which is totally one-sided, if you ask me... The hypocracy of this is that we (Australians) must comply with their "DAILY" requests to commemorate their faith in prayer, which takes away from required work-hours. Also, I've heard that business' are now being forced to comply with supplying a prayer room for them.

A) Due to their lack of tolerance for other faiths in their previous countries, can anyone please tell mw WHY we jump when they make demands on our culture?

B) I can understand those demands were they within their own country's borders; but, how can they DEMAND rights in other people's countries? WHY LEAVE YOUR OLD COUNTRY if you want to bring the same politics that helped to destroy it (i.e. totalitarianism)???

C) IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE, why is it a problem for you to be confronted with such trivial matters as Santa Claus, pork, etc. Especially as, (metaphorically-speaking) YOU invited yourself to the dinner-table WITHOUT an invitation from your guests? I don't eat pork because of the cruelty to pigs, and I don't believe we should have Santa Claus as it is a commercial gimmick. I wish the whole world felt the same, but I am NOT about to force my values onto others which are trivial matters compared to bigger issues happening in their original countries. Did any one of them try to "STOP SLAVERY" in the Middle East before they left? No! But they feel it's really important to come here, and stop a fairy-tale like Santa Claus.
Wanderer
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 10:46:59 AM

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Chitta Chatta, I feel you! You should be in the US where these things are happening and if you dare to speak up you are drowned out from around the world and accused of terrible things you never said or intended. As they take away all of my rights they tell me I must not protest because I am a Christian and must be an example.
jcbarros
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 1:33:15 PM

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Of the all pests that have chastised the world, religion is the worst.
lmn567
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 2:12:19 PM
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Do something about it, or let it happen. Sharia law is already infecting Europe. If the momentum is not derailed, if the current mood of political correctness and capitulation is not thwarted then the Islamic invasion of the Christian World will succeed by default. Where is my Prayer Rug?
secular
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:09:56 PM
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Chittachatta ji :I am very sorry to hear that Australian cannot spending Christmas.It is so sad because Christmas such a beautiful festival.Here in India too we spending Christmas and myself being a Hindu have alaways spended
Christmas since I be little.
Now too small children in our family spending Santa Claus and also I going out and buying Christmas cake and gifts and sometimes small Santa Claus idol for them.
AnthA1G
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 7:59:15 PM

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Chitti Chatta, you said you can't celebrate Christmas in schools, but do you get Christmas vacations? Do you celebrate any religious holidays? (If yes, I'm so so sorry for you!)

You have to understand that, even when they don't let Christians build churches in their countries, YOU ARE NOT in their countries; that's what make YOUR country so great. You like YOUR country because of it's laws, and those very same laws dictate that Muslims are free to build their mosques and practice their religion.

The ham/pork issue is just ridiculous. If your god doesn't want you to eat pork, it's alright, don't eat it. But I don't give a sh*t about your god and what he doesn't want people to eat. If he is so concerned with people eating pork, why create the damn animal in the first place.
peterhewett
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 10:48:55 PM
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Anth once again is lost for decent words.

But I don't give a sh*t about your god

peter says: So speaks the great Anth, a Muslim living in Malaysia. Spoken like a true extremist Muslim.

Anth says: You have to understand that, even when they don't let Christians build churches in their countries, YOU ARE NOT in their countries; that's what make YOUR country so great. You like YOUR country because of it's laws, and those very same laws dictate that Muslims are free to build their mosques and practice their religion freely.


Peter says: That is gobbledegook. It means nothing and the only clear thing about it is the unbridled support for Muslims regardless of right or wrong.

PS: Are you translating from Malay to English?
TYSON
Posted: Tuesday, September 7, 2010 11:04:49 PM
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chittachatta, Funny how so much attention is placed to avoid the possibility of offending someone religious.
I dont believe in God and follow no religion. Nobody bothers to think that talking of churches and the existance of God may offend ME.
Wanderer
Posted: Wednesday, September 8, 2010 12:28:55 PM

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I am not worried about offending anyone in my abhorrence of the Muslim actions against the Hindu religion and their temples. It is an offense of all that any civilized nation holds sacred and any moral person finds holy and that any American believes is a right that all men are born with the right to worship God in their own fashion or not to worship if that be the case. Muslims in these countries do not allow atheism or any other religion but Islam and their brand of Islam. If you care even a little bit about what happens to the Muslims in New York wouldn't you be enraged at the genocide taking place other places?
chitta chatta
Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:04:55 PM
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In reply:- Imn567, Wanderer, Tyson, AnthA1G, etc.

(1) I "AM" doing something about it:- I am a regular CHURCH GOER every Sunday (unless sick/babysitting). It is our way of NOT capitulating to them!!!


(2) I "AM" respectfully addressing my adversaries with quotes and facts from the Holy Bible when confronted. And when available to me, as I'm no expert.


(3) I "AM" aware of the prophecies of this good book, and I don't believe that for one minute the Muslims will ever rule our part of the world because TWO WORLD WARS (where our side won) says I am right. And, we WILL win the next one; have NO doubt because God showed with Abraham He is on the side of all men who LOVES HIS NEIGHBOUR - "Not" the bullies/tirants!


(4) I "AM" aware Wanderer/AnthA1G that they have a right to build their mosques here (And, *OF MY RIGHT TO STATE WHERE IT SHOULD GO*). But that's OK by me, because I'm of the belief that (someday in the future) they will also become our churches and temples, and will someday live in peace together. The Muslim race is becoming less and less illiterate; so they are finding it harder to manipulate and suppress the full truth from the masses, forever. God knows.


(5) I "AM" aware in the Noble Quoran that the Jews/Christians/Buddhists/Hindus, etc - "AND ATHEISTS" are all tagged with the 'same' name - "infidels". Infidels are people with NO RIGHTS to practise what you believe in (TYSON/AnthA1G). Infidels get far less wages than Muslims; infact, Muslims still believe in SLAVERY. Infidels are the Indian-version of the Dalits - the "UNCLEAN"!!! So, if the Atheists were smart, they would be joining forces with the rest of us in celebrating the wonderful rights we have; Like I do, by being a regular church goer which is a right deprived in Communist/atheist countries!


(6) I "AM" also a converted Atheist! (1) When I was an Atheist I was NEVER offended by religious people practising their right to believe, Tyson. I had the right/choice to ignore. (2) Religion is a coin of phrase to say "this is what I believe in". Therefore, ATHEISTS ARE RELIGIOUS - just that their religion doesn't believe in any God! (3)Reading the Holy Bible's prophesied rise of the Muslims in Genesis; convinced ME I did the right thing, to become a Christian; and, that there IS a Judgement Day.


(7) I "AM" concerned not only about genocide EVERYWHERE it is happening. But also SUPPRESSION of people's right to believe they are NOT unclean such as is happening in India with the Dahlits, and elsewhere such as those who are treated this way; like "infidels".


(8) I "AM" aware not only the Noble Quoran is open for manipulation where it is preached; but ALSO the Holy Bible has been manipulated for power and wealthever since it was written. They both can be good books; if only they were practised according to their highest principles (1) Love thy God, and no other (2) LOVE thy neighbour (LIKE Abraham); incidentally, I practised this even when I was an Atheist!


(9) I "AM" aware of the atrocities that religion can bring; but I'm also aware of the atrocities ATHEISM can bring. TYSON/ANTHA1G; Ask yourself why the West doesn't have (Atheist) boat-people rushing to the Eastern block/Communist shores? And why, when caught in America, do their spies hate going back to Russia? BTW: Those same holiday entitlements are NOT applied in Communist countries. You have the unions/free men to thank for them!!


(10) I "AM" aware of the atrocities that religion can bring; but I'm also aware of the atrocities FALSE GODS can bring; , too; those who believed in human sacrificial offering (even of their own children!). Just read about WHY Sodom and Gomorra was destroyed, of the old Canaan tribes (Hyttites, Amorites, Moabites, etc). Just like the dead tribes of the old South America who practised human sacrifice. Plus, the old practice of human sacrifice by the old Pacific Islanders; and the old African tribes (some still do so, for Witch Doctor's potions). All this false gods have passed away because of one book; the Holy Bible.


(11) I "AM" aware of the novel "Animal Farm" where the foolhardy efforts of the people to overthrow the farmer; led them to be controlled by another/worse leader (such as the fall of Russian aristocracy only to be replaced by a worse regime - called atheist "Communism"). Like "ALL" totalitarians, Stalin lived in "constant fear" of being murdered that he could never sleep well at night, because he NEVER KNEW knew whom he could trust and was always looking over his shoulder. He saw (and murdered) even his own Generals as enemies. For him or them, what way of life is this?


(12) I "AM" aware of the wickedness of the internet; but I'm ALSO aware of it's use for good. Like just now, rubbing shoulders over different opinions that face-to-face would most likely end up in a brawl. Religion is the same; it can be used for evil or for good; to broaden our minds or to close them. It depends on it's use AND how we accept it.


(13) I "AM" also of the belief there is possibly a truth to every religion that is a key to the Absolute Truth of Life. (I'm also aware 13 is not necessarily an unlucky number, any more than 19 is always lucky - don't worry; Muslims will understand). PS Luck is called "gambling" where I come from.
chitta chatta
Posted: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:57:09 PM
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Secular, I do NOT support Santa Claus "idols" as Santa Claus does NOT exist! Maybe Saint Nicholas did. But, what I DO support is being like Saint Nick and "GIVING CHARITY TO THE POOR"; even more at this time of year than any other. This is in line with my Christian faith. One year I was fortunate enough to give money to WORLD VISION for three (3) clean water wells in poorer countries, which I took more joy in doing than spending that money on my grandchildren who already have enough.

My celebration of Christmas and Easter is spending time with members of my family. I also share the time with the son-in-law's families, by accepting Boxing Day as my Christmas Day with my children and their families. That's OK because nobody can be sure which day is the exact date, anyway. I have ONE RULE for that day; the kids have 364 days a year to fight/argue BUT on our Christmas Day, there is to be "Peace amongst Mankind". I wish you peace and joy. They may succeed to tear down the temples on land, but they CANNOT tear down the temple of God from our hearts. My hope/prayer is that your God is good to ALL your people someday - and does away with the caste system. My wish is the same for the Muslims and the infidel system.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 6:09:14 AM
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C/C said: "Like I do, by being a regular church goer which is a right deprived in Communist/atheist countries!"

I say: I don't know of a single 'atheist' country.

C/C further commented: "only to be replaced by a worse regime - called atheist "Communism""

I say: The regime may have been worse, but there is hardly any evidence to show that it was because of communist principles, and certainly not atheism. The atrocity of that regime had little to do with the qualities (whether good or bad) of atheism.
Mind you, I do not think communism is practically implementable but the principles of Stalin were hardly in accordance with communist ideals.
Your hypothesis therefore that any purely Atheistic and Communist nation will give rise to a 'worse regime' is unfounded.
It is true that a purely communist nation will have pure atheism but there certainly can also be a country/world that is purely atheist and not communist.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:06:30 AM
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Excuse me kisholoy, for going on what I have heard and/or read. For example, when I googled communism this is some of what I found.

QUOTE: Communism: a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party. (Now, may I suggest you find a copy, and read "Animal Farm").

Further form Google:-

Thread:- http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/communism.htm
QUOTE: Fundamentally, The Communist Manifesto was a rebellion against the extreme poverty of the lower class (again, read "Animal Farm").

Communism - Atheism and Amorality
Communism doesn't end with economic and political reform. By definition, it further demands the abolition of both Religion and the Absolute Morality founded upon Religion. The irony is that Communism supposedly attempts to enhance civility within society, but removes all notions of Absolute Morality, the very cornerstone of civility. Furthermore, after Communism is instituted by the people, the system becomes Totalitarian, resulting in greater oppression of the people it was designed to "serve." (my note: read "Animal Farm"). This fact is well documented throughout the history of Communist nations (END QUOTE).

Communism IS Atheism. They go together, hand-in-hand.

PS I'm not saying in theory it wasn't good, by the way. But, if it was good in practise, why did the Iron Curtain fall? By any means Democracy is NOT perfect, but if the animals on the farm don't like the leader/s or their form of government, atleast we only have to put up with him/her for a required period of time. And no other form of government offers that.

And, as I said in No.8(if you would read the whole lot above) - on a personal basis, atheists can be good people, too. I was once an Atheist who practised "Loved thy neighbour" without the need of any noble or holy book. As a Christian, I've just fine tuned it more.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:23:48 AM
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You missed my point entirely. Please read my post again. I said "It is true that a purely communist nation will have pure atheism but there certainly can also be a country/world that is purely atheist and not communist. "

I know it well that communism encourages atheism. My objection was to your referral to the Stalinist regime as one that was worse BECAUSE it was a) communist and b) atheist.

Stalin's rule was not adherent to Communist principles. Anyone who has read the manifesto will understand that.

Last but not the least: by saying "Communism IS Atheism. They go together, hand-in-hand." - I hope you are not implying that where ever there is atheism, there will be communism.

P.S: You said "atheists can be good people, too. "

Lol, that sounds as if "atheists are generally not good but they too can be good. There are always exceptions"
Correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:18:07 AM
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(1) Since you say I am missing your point; why not give suggestions?

(2) Since you missed MY point, thank you for allowing me to elaborate further! I WAS an Atheist and I lived by the rule "Do unto others as you would have done to you". In which case turned out to be on the same lines as "Love thy neighbour". I was merely trying to clarify that being an Atheist does NOT make you a good/bad person. Any more than calling yourself a Christian makes you a good/bad person (e.g. Hitler stated he was a Christian). No more than calling yourself a Muslim makes you a good/bad person (i.e. Hussein said he was a Muslim). And, Stalin considered himself a Communist (but we know he fell short of that). Saying you are something, doesn't make you so. What are you kisholoy? I have the feeling you are Indian, and possibly atheist - am I right?

It is no point always "picking at things". If you had read all I stated, I'm sure you would have got the point I was making, sooner.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:20:19 AM

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Atheism, as an explicit position, either affirms the nonexistence of gods or rejects theism. When defined more broadly, atheism is the absence of belief in deities, alternatively called nontheism.

Atheism is NOT a political movement. Soviet system was not atheist; they tried to replace religions with the blind belief in Communist Party.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:23:04 AM
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Thanks JJ; but I think I answered this above Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:06:30 PM
when I googled Communism:-
Thread:- http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/communism.htm

And, I NEVER stated Atheism was a political movement - I stated they always go hand-in-hand, and I'm open to discussion on this if it pleases you.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:50:47 AM
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chitta chatta wrote:
I was merely trying to clarify that being an Atheist does NOT make you a good/bad person. Any more than calling yourself a Christian makes you a good/bad person (e.g. Hitler stated he was a Christian).


I agree.

chitta chatta wrote:

And, Stalin considered himself a Communist (but we know he fell short of that).


Yes I agree. But the principles he followed were certainly not ones of communism.
So your point that his regime was worse BECAUSE it was 'atheist' and 'communist' is unfounded. Are we clear on that?
Or else it would mean that you are contradicting yourself since just above you have said that 'atheism or theism doesn't have much to do with being good/bad'.


chitta chatta wrote:

What are you kisholoy? I have the feeling you are Indian, and possibly atheist - am I right?


I don't understand the relevance of these questions and hence I don't feel the need to answer them as well. However, as to 'what I am', I can say I am human. Is that enough or will the neutrality (or the lack of it) in your response depend on my ethnicity/beliefs or non-beliefs?

chitta chatta wrote:

It is no point always "picking at things". If you had read all I stated, I'm sure you would have got the point I was making, sooner.


Nope, I don't always 'pick at things' but when I do, I make sure my point is well explained.
My question and strong opposition to your remark "only to be replaced by a worse regime - called atheist "Communism"" still stands firm and unchallenged.

I ask again : If you agree that the regime was NOT communist in its principles and that atheism has nothing to do with being good/bad, why mention them as if they are responsible for the regime being so bad and oppressive? I say it was Stalin himself who was a tyrant and an oppressor, but atheism and communism had nothing to do with the evil of his regime. Agreed or not??
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:52:26 AM
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C/C said: "I NEVER stated Atheism was a political movement - I stated they always go hand-in-hand,"

You mean where ever there is atheism, there will be a political movement (or more precisely communism?) I have asked this question before also, in my last post.
Cat
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:13:12 AM

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chitta chatta said: They may succeed to tear down the temples on land, but they CANNOT tear down the temple of God from our hearts. Applause

What a powerful statement! You nailed it. In another thread about Hawking, I asked the question "Why do we need to agree? No one loses if everyone gets to believe in their own god or not. It is only when one belief system tries to bully another belief system that problems begin.

I support your efforts to maintain your beliefs and agree that people should have available an environment that allows for everyone. That is one of the basic ideas behind America's brand of democracy that the government doesn't install religion, no "one size fits all" mentality. It doesn't mean religion is not allowed. Sometimes politicians forget that and our Supreme Court intercedes.

Civilization is evolving, I think the direction of "civil evolution" is toward a state of homeostasis where we can live in peace with each other. As we all know, evolution is a function of time and it will take time, lots of it, before homeostasis is achieved.

This is the definition of evolution I'm using:

From TFD:

ev·o·lu·tion

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2.
a. The process of developing.
b. Gradual development.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:31:30 AM
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kusherley
1. No.. I am NOT going on my own understanding alone that on the political scene they go hand-in-hand, and takes away choice of the masses. But, from a learned source found on the web which I quoted earlier. I don't know if you have read because if you did, you would not be continuing to argue with me because I have given you a higher clarification than mine. Please refer your arguement to that website, thanks. I am not talking about Atheism on an individual basis - which is about individual choice (open to us in the West).
2. You have not yet given me an atheist country that is not Communist, which you stated there can be an atheist country that is not Communist. Where?
3. Tell me of any (past/present) Communist leader is/was a religious person such as Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. because, if you could, then he wouldn't be in the job.
4. I base my opinion on (1) going from memory, I thought you started out by stating in your Profile you were Indian, but I think you removed that for some reason. (2) You always appear to fight anyone that is not an atheist. Maybe I'm wrong, but most people who hide themselves usually do so because they have a hidden agenda.
5. The relevance is to me asking is to try and understand where you are coming from when you disagree with people. Then, it would make more sense why you are saying this/that. For example, with Secular in another thread, why did you berate this person for doing what is the same right as what you frequently do - voicing an opinion of world concerns?
6. If you are human, then can't you have a little more compassion when you address others who may be in a different part of the world, and not have the same rights/safety as us in our country/s. You can REFUTE an opinion like you are doing with me; but you can't STOP that person from having an opinion; like Srirr and you did earlier to Secular. Let the Muslims fight their own battle - surely there's enough of them - unless... you are Muslim?
7. Quote "Nope, I don't always 'pick at things'". I disagree - why else does your tag say "gotcha Bud, again"? To me, it implies that you do like to argue; and, that you also always like to be right.
8. Sorry; Communism practise (not theory) IS oppressive. That is not my opinion; but history's. And also historically, they go together. Sadly, so does the bad with it (because "in theory" Communism is good for the poor).
9. When an Atheist, I found it liberating to go against the tide. To defy and rebel at what I saw all religion as confusing, and oppressive. My Sunday was better spent with my young family. Then, I could not go to any church, because (1) all of them said they were right (2) I didn't feel comfortable with the people (3) They all seemed "too good" for me. Now, I am able to be a Christian and comfortable to walk into ANY church, regardless of it's beliefs. And, if I don't like it, I can move onto the next, and the next, and the next if need be. Because, I know in my own heart that God is everywhere - even if I stayed home to pray He can hear me. Just as Jesus prayed in the fields, and on the hills, or at the shores. But, I like going to church now because, in the West, their numbers are dropping world-wide (due to the electronic era mostly) and I want to live in a country where I can CONTINUE to practise my right to walk into a church of my own choosing.
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:47:08 PM
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C/C: Firstly, kindly spell my name properly. It is so hard to believe that "kusherley" in place of "kisholoy" was a result of a typo.
Secondly, from your post, it seems you are saying that 'whereever there is atheism, there is communism'. Does that mean anyone who is an atheist is a communist? Your reasoning is ridiculous. Like I said, there is no country that is atheist and there has been no purely communist nation. So your example of Stalin's rule is a totally wrong one.
Thirdly, I ask you again: (for the third time)

""I ask again : If you agree that the regime was NOT communist in its principles and that atheism has nothing to do with being good/bad, why mention them as if they are responsible for the regime being so bad and oppressive? I say it was Stalin himself who was a tyrant and an oppressor, but atheism and communism had nothing to do with the evil of his regime. Agreed or not??""

The rest of your post is off topic banter and also contains personal remarks.
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:52:05 PM

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chitta chatta wrote:

1. No.. I am NOT going on my own understanding alone that on the political scene they go hand-in-hand, and takes away choice of the masses. But, from a learned source found on the web which I quoted earlier. I don't know if you have read because if you did, you would not be continuing to argue with me because I have given you a higher clarification than mine. Please refer your arguement to that website, thanks. I am not talking about Atheism on an individual basis - which is about individual choice (open to us in the West).


Well, CC, this source you linked, Allaboutphilosophy.org seems to be just another "preacher of one truth" site. The philosophers quoted and the opinions written in that site are carefully selected and tendentious. That is only my humble opinion, of course.

EDIT: Further studies in that site (About Us -link at the bottom of the main page) showed the origin being a religious organisation All about God in Colorado, USA. I'm sure they are true believers and mean all good but I would not consider their opinions as absolute truth.

Anyway, this topic was originally about Malaysian Government and Hinduism. Perhaps atheism and Soviet leaders' atrocities belong somewhere else.
Articulate Dreamer
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 2:23:15 PM

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The Malay government's attitude is obnoxious from the info secular gives us here; but not surprising.
From a relatively pleasant and accomodative Islamic country, Malaysia has been evolving into an intolerant and fundamentalist one.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:42:02 PM
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1. Sincere apology for the typo. If you look at the clock on my last post to the present one there is a distinctive lapse of time. At my age I already need thick reading glasses, and, being so tired, I could barely see the screen (2A.M. over here). As I have now apologised, and if you still want to read something into it, I'll leave that problem with you to sort out.

2. Yes, I am stating wherever there is ("a political power" called) Communism, there is Atheism AND, sadly it is always bad. My reasoning is based on history. Again, your argument is NOT with me, but history. Maybe, in the past, there were Atheist countries that were not Communist, but again, they were cruel and aggressive (?Spartans?).

3. (a) Again, I break it up for you to undertand what I am saying:- When applied ON A LARGER SCALE TO THE MASSES such as with Communism (and regardless of who is the leader) Atheism appears to always come out on top as "bad". I don't know why, when, in theory it's good. Maybe, because people are individuals and NOT robots, and it is hard to make us think exactly the same (just like you, kisholoy, and me).

(b) But, Atheism in a Democracy (where we are NOT treated like robots, and are individuals) this is not necessarily so. In this instance, Atheism is based on the individuality of the person. (a) Some people don't want to believe in a God entity, because it empowers them with free-reign to kill, steal, lie, and cheat because they fear only worldly consequences. (b) Although many other people don't believe in a God entity, they may never do such a thing to their neighbour. These individuals don't feel they need a God to be good because they are balanced and confident within themselves. Maybe it is genetic; maybe environmental; maybe both.

4. Finally, I will answer you no further because, as JJ said; this discussion is taking away from the "original" thread of Secular that Malaysia is tearing down Hindu temples and this is frightening this faith that their rights are being withdrawn.

5. As I live in Australia, and they are demanding rights in our justice system to build mosques (temples) here; I find the Muslims extremely hypocritical. If they TRULY BELIEVED in God/Allah (same God/different name) they would follow in the footsteps of Abraham whom they revere who loved his neighbours - even those who believed in False Gods and/or human sacrifice. BY HIS EXEMPLARY LIFE he turned some of his neighbours to believe in his God, too. In the land of "CANAAN", where God lead him to (NOT Mecca), Abraham never built any mosque/temple/church on his neighbours land. Abraham needed ONLY A SMALL ALTAR he made from rocks.

6. Abraham loved BOTH his sons - ISHMAEL and ISAAC. Since ISHMAEL (Muhammad's descendent) and ISAAC (Israel's descendent) were brothers; doesn't that also make the Arabs and Israelites brothers, too? So, would it bring Abraham any joy to see his sons fighting amongst themselves to this day???
AnthA1G
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:12:11 PM

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chitta chatta: Maybe, in the past, there were Atheist countries that were not Communist, but again, they were cruel and aggressive (?Spartans?).

Therefore, we needed theist countries because they were even more cruel and aggressive. Anxious

PS: CC, you make 'atheism' sound like a religion.
chitta chatta
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 11:30:38 PM
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1. AnthA1G:-
Look up google:-
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm

QUOTE:- "There are serious problems with the definition of "religion:"
Many people have their personal favorite definition which they know to be the correct one, to the exclusion of all others. Unfortunately, there does not exist anything approaching a consensus."

Yes, AnthA1G:- in my definion of religion; if you hold an opinion/belief whether there is/isn't a god, then you have a religion. To me, religion doesn't imply you believe in God; but, that you have a belief system in "something".

A) Even if you believed we are descendants of interplanetary visitors; this is a belief. Therefore; by my definition - a religion.

B) Even if you believe like some Papua New Guinean tribes once did, we derived from an aeroplane; this is a belief. Therefore; by my definition - a religion.

C) Even if you believe we were created from the "Big Bang"; this is a belief. Therefore; by my definition - a religion.

2. AnthA1G: Therefore, we needed theist countries because they were even more cruel and aggressive?

C/C says: PLEASE read the "HEADING", Plus, all the notes on this thread: I have answered this in No.8 above. The Atheist issue has high-jacked Secular's thread. My words are not to be pecked at, but taken over all in regard to this thread and my reply to others.

Now, do you have a comment about what this thread is actually about?
AnthA1G
Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2010 12:46:07 AM

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Actually, no, I have nothing to say. That pretty much sums it up. Lol
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2010 1:45:43 AM
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chitta chatta wrote:

3. (a) Again, I break it up for you to undertand what I am saying:- When applied ON A LARGER SCALE TO THE MASSES such as with Communism (and regardless of who is the leader) Atheism appears to always come out on top as "bad". I don't know why, when, in theory it's good. Maybe, because people are individuals and NOT robots, and it is hard to make us think exactly the same (just like you, kisholoy, and me).



The above just shows the bias you hold against atheism. There has never been a truly atheist nation. Those whom you point out as 'bad' were so because of different reasons and not 'atheism'. It is poor judgment on your part, nothing else.
In fact, the theist organisations like the churches have executed and tortured people in the name of religion for many years, everyone knows that. So, no, history does not support your claim at all.

"When applied ON A LARGER SCALE TO THE MASSES [/u][/b] such as with Communism (and regardless of who is the leader) Atheism appears to always come out on top as "bad"."

I could not get any part of the above sentence. Did you mean that the larger section of the masses adhere to communism? Obviously that isn't so.
And 'atheism always comes out on top as "bad"?? Yeah right. The Al Qaeda, KKK, Mujahaideen, Shiv Shenas are all atheist terrorist organisations, right??
Can you name a single "atheist" terrorist group that is creating global terror in the magnitude that these groups do?

But then you wouldn't reply to me as you said, too bad.

However, it might please you to know we do agree on something:
I too do not think institutionalised "atheism" (i.e. a country that enforces atheism" as a rule) can work.
But if people can be made to understand 'better' so as to make a nation atheist, well, that would be the ideal scenario.
chitta chatta
Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2010 9:32:40 AM
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KM said: But then you wouldn't reply to me as you said, too bad.
C/c says: Since you have mentioned religions other than Atheists "and that is part of what the topic thread is about"; Yes, I now can.

1. "The above just shows the bias you hold against atheism."
C/c says: How can an EX-Atheist be prejudiced against Atheists? I just feel I now have more information to make a better decision, FOR ME! Since Atheism has been well and truly discussed, I don't get why you keep high-jacking this thread when I think we should be more on topic? My Atheist comment was a small drop of water, within a bucket of other relevant things.

2A. "There has never been a truly atheist nation."
C/c says: Not true. The Russian people were an undeniable majority about the Communism "ideal" when, en-masse, they overthrew the Russian church and aristocracy. Why it hasn't worked is, because Russia has realised that humans are individuals and CANNOT be permanently programmed to (i) believe EXACTLY what they are told, and are (ii) given NO CHOICE about it. Hence, why they have now adopted Democracy. Ironically, without Stalin and the Communists, Hitler would have won.

B. However, even Democracy can be high-jacked - it was Democracy that established Hitler. And eventually he failed, because he tried to force people into believing EXACTLY what he did. No human is an EXACT copy - not even twins. And, if you cannot be programmed, you are "removed" - QUOTE: "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people ALL of the time."

3. Those whom you point out as 'bad' were so because of different reasons and not 'atheism'.
C/c says: No. They were bad because to create any new change; leaders have to push people along which, at first, they accept. But, once the honeymoon phase is over and the people see the new leaders are no better than the old for greed, then MORE force is applied upon the masses to continue the momentum of the change. And, when the old conditions return (under a new name) people either rise against the current establishment. OR, if this is not possible, *then we give up, as was the case in Russia when alcoholism became a huge problem. *Same appears to be the case of the Dalits (India's [so-called] unclean). We are not ROBOTS. We have that most human quality, and greatest gift of all - CHOICE! And, if we have a master, we seek "GENUINE" reward for our labour.

4. "It is poor judgment on your part, nothing else."
C/c says: Then, we must agree to differ.

5. In fact, the theist organisations like the churches have executed and tortured people in the name of religion for many years, everyone knows that. So, no, history does not support your claim at all.
C/c says: Why is it that people come into a thread without reading it from the top to the beginning??? If you won't, then atleast do me the courtesy of reading No.8 above (2nd post from top) (like I told AnthA1G before you, and he now understands) you would see that I have no argument with you there! Why do you think I was an Atheist for 40 years!!! I hated the way religions preached love in one breath, and spewed hatred with the other. This is starting to sound like a broken-down record player. Therefore, I think we have discussed this enough. So, can we please get off this subject, and get back on track with the thread; Once and for ALL!!

MY QUOTE: "When applied ON A LARGER SCALE TO THE MASSES [/u][/b] such as with Communism (and regardless of who is the leader) Atheism appears to always come out on top as "bad"."

6. I could not get any part of the above sentence. Did you mean that the larger section of the masses adhere to communism? Obviously that isn't so.
C/c says: Yes, at first they do. With all new ideas... it's called... "HOPE"!

7. And 'atheism always comes out on top as "bad"?? Yeah right. The Al Qaeda, KKK, Mujahaideen, Shiv Shenas are all atheist terrorist organisations, right?? Can you name a single "atheist" terrorist group that is creating global terror in the magnitude that these groups do?
C/c says: I'm all for supporting you, here. As stated earlier - READ No.8(my second post from the top!! Terrorists are led by leaders who are trying to do exactly what the Communists did; and all the Religious Zealots before them; they are trying to FORCE their ideas/values/principles upon us. And, throughout history, it has NEVER worked. People have got to WANT to do it and be rewarded for it or else the ideal/value/principles will fail. Chines Communists are starting to learn this; by rewarding those who have only one baby, to reduce the birth rate.

8. However, it might please you to know we do agree on something: I too do not think institutionalised "atheism" (i.e. a country that enforces atheism" as a rule) can work.

C/c says: "Thank goodness, KM"! Since all the OTHER STUFF I wrote relevant to this thread's topic, doesn't seem much to have made an impression upon you (which the Atheist point was connected to as a "whole", and not intented as a singular content).

9. But if people can be made to understand 'better' so as to make a nation atheist, well, that would be the ideal scenario.
C/c says: You can CONVINCE people whilst leaving them a choice; but you can't MAKE people do anything WITHOUT HEAVY FORCE! And, if you are the enforcer, then, you (and the people you are brutalising) will eventually pay a price. Just like Stalin, Hitler, the Catholic Church, IRA, murderers, and violent parents. Communism already tried to "make" ALL the people atheists, and failed. Besides, why would you want to have a given- right to be an Atheist and want to remove that same right from theists, who accept your right???
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Sunday, September 26, 2010 12:19:03 PM
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C/C said: "4. "It is poor judgment on your part, nothing else."
C/c says: Then, we must agree to differ."

I think we have to agree to disagree on just about everything you wrote above.
chitta chatta
Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:25:09 AM
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KM said: I think we have to agree to disagree on just about everything you wrote above.

C/c said: Suits me fine. I've no desire to stop your right to free-thinking, or chop off your hand because you and I have different ideas/values/opinions/BELIEFS. I respect you for not being easily oppressed (if that is the correct word - I'm no English prof.).
kisholoy mukherjee
Posted: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:27:44 AM
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chitta chatta wrote:
KM said: I think we have to agree to disagree on just about everything you wrote above.

C/c said: Suits me fine. I've no desire to stop your right to free-thinking, or chop off your hand because you and I have different ideas/values/opinions/BELIEFS. I respect you for not being easily oppressed.


Thank you, you are too kind :)
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