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end justify the means Options
frasha4ever
Posted: Wednesday, September 1, 2010 4:00:26 PM
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AKA as Consequentialism

does it mean that the consequence of an action justifies the reason why the action was done?

if not, can somebody explain it in simple english with an easy example that i can recall everytime i forget the meaning Brick wall

thanx , really appreciate it

oh nd i tried readin whats written on TFD but i dint truly understand it..
Jyrkkä Jätkä
Posted: Wednesday, September 1, 2010 4:21:47 PM

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The result justifies the means. For you, whatever you do, to reach what was your aim, is justified and right.
thar
Posted: Wednesday, September 1, 2010 4:53:05 PM

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the end is the result.
the means is the way it is achieved
justifies means it is a good enough excuse.

If the result is important enough, you can do things you would not like, to achieve that result.

If the killing of one man saves the lives of five hundred, you might think the end justifies the means.

Of course, whenever this is said, it usually means that someone is having trouble believing that the end does justify the means.
2thescream
Posted: Wednesday, September 1, 2010 5:02:17 PM
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A person steals a loaf of bread--that is a bad thing.
A person gives a loaf of bread to a starving child--that is a good thing.
A person steals a loaf of bread and gives it to a starving child--that is a bad thing that leads to a good thing, i.e. the end justifies the means.
Hope this helps.
excaelis
Posted: Wednesday, September 1, 2010 6:32:04 PM

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I'm not sure that Machiavellianism and Cosequentialism are synonymous. The former implies a plan of action predicated on benefit justifying means. The latter seems more a justification of means by their unplanned but beneficial outcome.
Ravindra
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:24:32 AM
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The end justifies the means is an idiom. Idioms and proverbs need to be read from the given context only. Many of these can not be generalised.
TFD states:
One can use bad or immoral methods as long as the person accomplishes something good by using them. (Not everyone agrees with this idea.)
Lucy got money for the orphanage by embezzling it from the firm where she worked. "The end justifies the means," she told herself.
The politician clearly believed that the end justifies the means, since he used all kinds of nefarious means to get elected.
Unfortunately, we'll have to cut down the forest to make space for the golf course, but I feel the end justifies the means.

There is a point beyond which even justice becomes unjust.
Sophocles (496 BC-406 BC)


thar
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 5:55:42 AM

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Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 22,788
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frasha4ever wrote:
AKA as Consequentialism

does it mean that the consequence of an action justifies the reason why the action was done?

if not, can somebody explain it in simple english with an easy example that i can recall everytime i forget the meaning Brick wall

thanx , really appreciate it

oh nd i tried readin whats written on TFD but i dint truly understand it..


sorry, misread, what you are actually talking about is consequentialism

I take this to mean not so much that the end justifies the means, rather that good intentions count for nothing.

If you do something and it has bad consequences then it is a bad act, even though you may have meant well.

Only the result matters, and you must choose actions which give the best results, which does include that the ends may justify the means.


frasha4ever
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:41:36 AM
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Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 72
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Location: United Arab Emirates
thar , i loved ur 1st explanation Applause very clear and got the point.
but ur 2nd post was quite confusing, i dint really ask for Consequentialism, but i did mention it because when i typed end justifies the mean in TFD it redirected me to Consequentialism which totally confused me.. so i take it from ur 2nd post that they both have different intentions or meanings?

and Ravindra Applause Loved ur post and especially how u stated "There is a point beyond which even justice becomes unjust"
thar
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 9:21:06 AM

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Joined: 7/8/2010
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frasha4ever wrote:
thar , i loved ur 1st explanation Applause very clear and got the point.
but ur 2nd post was quite confusing, i dint really ask for Consequentialism, but i did mention it because when i typed end justifies the mean in TFD it redirected me to Consequentialism which totally confused me.. so i take it from ur 2nd post that they both have different intentions or meanings?

and Ravindra Applause Loved ur post and especially how u stated "There is a point beyond which even justice becomes unjust"


consequentialism is a philosophy, which no one but philosophers (and excaelis) would normally mention. I don't think it is even that important within philosophy, just a part of utilitarianism, a theoretical description ( with apologies to all you moral philosophers out there).

'the end justifies the means' is a common idiom that everybody uses, and is a very good way of expressing a complex moral point in everyday experience.
eg collateral damage: how many people is it OK to kill by accident if your aim is to save them? Should you cut jobs to save the economy? Should you murder innocent civilians to gain independence etc. etc

the link directing you to consequentialism my have been technically correct, but was sending you to an obscure philosophical theory, rather than a useful meaning! I am sure 'the end justifies the means' existed in all cultures before thinkers like Kant and John Stuart Mill started writing about it and someone labelled a theory as 'consequentialism'!
frasha4ever
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 10:00:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/2009
Posts: 72
Neurons: 208
Location: United Arab Emirates

consequentialism is a philosophy, which no one but philosophers (and excaelis) would normally mention. I don't think it is even that important within philosophy, just a part of utilitarianism, a theoretical description ( with apologies to all you moral philosophers out there).

'the end justifies the means' is a common idiom that everybody uses, and is a very good way of expressing a complex moral point in everyday experience.
eg collateral damage: how many people is it OK to kill by accident if your aim is to save them? Should you cut jobs to save the economy? Should you murder innocent civilians to gain independence etc. etc

the link directing you to consequentialism my have been technically correct, but was sending you to an obscure philosophical theory, rather than a useful meaning! I am sure 'the end justifies the means' existed in all cultures before thinkers like Kant and John Stuart Mill started writing about it and someone labelled a theory as 'consequentialism'![/quote]

thank you for clearing it out =)
thar
Posted: Thursday, September 2, 2010 10:09:34 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/8/2010
Posts: 22,788
Neurons: 92,574
My pleasure.

consequentialism is the enemy of the more meandering threads on this forum: The journey is more important than the destination!
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