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Andrés Ignacio
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 3:28:19 PM

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Hey guys! I need help with this German sentence. It seems to be incomplete though.

Während aber die Art des Wissens nur ist, was sie sein kann, auf dem Grunde des eigenen Selbst, was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß, wozu eine Offenbarkeit freilich gehört, die aber nur aus der spezifischen Seinsart des Daseins begriffen werden kann

My translation goes as follow:

While the mode of knowledge only is what it can be on the basis of the own self, this itself [i.e., the own self] must be determined as Being does, to which [i.e., to being Das Sein] certainly a manifestness belongs which can only be understood however from the specific mode of being of Dasein.

1. To what is the author refering with "was selbst" in "was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß"? is the was selbst refering to the onw self?

2. is the Das Sein in "was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß" been used as distict to the eigenen Selbst, and in this respect does the als functions as a comparision? or is he taking Das Sein as a sustantivized form of the eigenen Selbst, in which case it could be translated by "the entity" or "that being which is".

My alternative was the first:

(a) This itself [i.e., the own self] must be determined as Being does, meaning that just as in the case of Being -Das Sein- the own self must be determined in a similar fashion

But it could also be the second:

(b) This itself [i.e., the own self] must be determined as that being whichetc.


Is the meaning and the reference of these relative clauses decideble at all? or is it impossible to decide?

The sentence partains to a lecture course and it has been copied literally. So its incomplete.

Thanks so much to you all! :)
tunaafi
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 4:44:27 PM

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Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
Heidegger?

here's my attempt:

On the other hand, however, the nature of knowledge is only what it can be on the basis of one's own self: which itself must be defined as the state of being, of which an openness is an essential part, which openness however can only be understood from the specific nature of being of the entity.

If that means much to you, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din/
Andrés Ignacio
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:36:58 PM

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Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 5
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Thank you tunaafi, that's really helpful.

Is someone out there that can offer a different translation. I'm mostly interested in the use of Das Sein. Because as far as I know Heidegger makes a distinction between Dasein, in this case the eigenen Selbst and Being Das Sein...so I don't see clearly in what sense could Das Sein being used in this concrete sentence.

Is such a monstruosity really.... Brick wall

Thanks to everyone!
IMcRout
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:40:37 PM
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Location: Lübeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Welcome to the forum, Andrés.

I think tuna has made a very fine attempt to get to the heart of the matter.
It is indeed an incomplete sentence: there is no main / independent clause.
Unfortunately it is a little late for me tonight, but tomorrow I'll make a few suggestions for some passages, which - I believe - can only be understood correctly from a greater context than this fragment provides. It'll be up to you what to choose.

Good night. Think
tunaafi
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:53:42 PM

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My command of German is not up to the finer points of philosophy. Come to that, I am not sure that my English is. I look forward to seeing what IMcrout makes of this.

It would help a little if we had the preceding sentences to know what the contrast concerns.
Andrés Ignacio
Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2014 6:07:21 PM

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Joined: 8/30/2014
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Thats great! Thanks in advance for your help ImcRout! Thanks for the welcoming...great forum!
IMcRout
Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:46:24 AM
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Location: Lübeck, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Are you sure this is German???

Although on the one hand this is my native language, on the other hand I have my doubts when I read Heidegger or other philosophers. They have their own vocabulary and thesaurus. I do not really dare offer an adequate translation as this would imply that I understood that sentence. This is not the case.

As has been mentioned before, this sentence is a fragment and can probably only be understood correctly knowing what came before or to what statement this passage is contrasted.

I will confine myself to suggesting a few alternatives to what you and tunaafi have already said. It'll be up to you to pick what you think is appropriate from a greater context and a better grasp of matters philosophical. Whistle

--> 'die Art des Wissens' - I don't really think that 'mode' hits the mark here. Tuna suggested 'nature'; let me add 'kind', 'type' and 'character'.

--> 'auf dem Grunde des eigenen Selbst' - To me it is not clear what 'eigenen' refers to. If it refers to "die Art des Wissens", the subject of this clause, it might be 'on the basis / background / model of its own self'; if it refers to an(y) individual person, it might be 'one's own self'.

--> 'was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß' - Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall Don't you have any decent Heidegger translation, Andrés? Tuna proposed 'state of being'. What about 'being' on its own?

--> 'wozu eine Offenbarkeit freilich gehört' - I have never heard or seen the word 'Offenbarkeit' before. To me it is an artificial word comparable only to 'apparenthood' or 'obviosity'.
Apparently, however, Heidegger used the term elsewhere and the internet helped me find 'revealability' as translation. Hope it helps.

--> 'aus der spezifischen Seinsart des Daseins' - 'from the particular / specific ontological character of existence'

Sorry, but that's the best I can do.Pray

Maybe the section Philosophy and Religion here at TFD can help you?
tunaafi
Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2014 6:38:19 AM

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Joined: 6/3/2014
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Location: Karlín, Praha, Czech Republic
IMcRout wrote:
Are you sure this is German?

It's as much German as my version was English - though that's not saying much.


Quote:
--> 'auf dem Grunde des eigenen Selbst' - To me it is not clear what 'eigenen' refers to. If it refers to "die Art des Wissens", the subject of this clause, it might be 'on the basis / background / model of its own self'; if it refers to an(y) individual person, it might be 'one's own self'.

I wasn't sure, either. My one's own self seemed the least worst option at the time.

Quote:
--> 'was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß' - Don't you have any decent Heidegger translation, Andrés? Tuna proposed 'state of being'. What about 'being' on its own?

Some English works I've seen simply stick to the German words Sein and Dasein, sometimes with a footnote attempting to explain the meaning the first time they are used


Quote:
Sorry, but that's the best I can do.

I am not much wiser, but that's Heidegger's fault, not yours. Unless one of our members is an academic philosopher, I don't think Andrés is going to get much more help than you and I were able to offer. At least he now knows from a native speaker that the German is far from clear.
Andrés Ignacio
Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2014 11:24:25 AM

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Joined: 8/30/2014
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Thanks so much IMcRout! I guess as far as I can tell, which is too little, eigenen Selbst seems to be a technical term in Hedegger's Philosophy that refers to human beings when they are considered as a condition of possibility of ontological knowledge, that would mean that they are considered as having the character of manifestness, which is also a technical term which refers to a free space of meaning.

Dasein can be considered as having manifestness in the one hand and as being discoverable on the other, being discoverable is something that happens in the world, when you see a piece of wood, or when you use a certain tool...manifestness on the other hand occurs in a similar way as conciousness does, something that its a condition prior to any concrete experiencing whatsoever, somthing without which seeing or using would be meaningless. Heidegger names this conciousness Being, (leaving aside that he doesnt use this term at all because he doesnt want to put being in the side of cognitive dealings, in a way he is saying that the hands know ejeje) and it is not something attached to entities but is what he calls a proyect, its not something...its the way things appear in the world.

Das Sein its the most crucial term in Heideggers philosophy: it names the Being as completely distinct from Beings. Now the issue is that Heidegger in this concrete period is just on the verge of making his mind as to whether or not Being is dependant upon Dasein's understanding of Being. And he is defenitely under ways of stepping back to that previous (1927) way of considering Being. This lecture course was given in 1929.

I don't know how Heidegger is using the term Das Sein in this sentence Brick wall Brick wall ...is he using it as a technical term? and if so is he using it as identical to eigenen Selbst, meaning that the eigenen Selbst must be determined as Being, i.e., is Being (is Das Sein that is distinct from entities) or is he using the term in a mere comparision, as the eigenen Selbst must be determined just as Being does by a certain manifestness, or is he using it as a sustantivization for the eigenen Selbst, meaning this being or this entity.

This is such a monstruosity really...

But your help is invaluable iMcRout...
Andrés Ignacio
Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2014 11:42:33 AM

Rank: Newbie

Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 5
Neurons: 25
tunaafi wrote:
IMcRout wrote:
Are you sure this is German?

It's as much German as my version was English - though that's not saying much.


Quote:
--> 'auf dem Grunde des eigenen Selbst' - To me it is not clear what 'eigenen' refers to. If it refers to "die Art des Wissens", the subject of this clause, it might be 'on the basis / background / model of its own self'; if it refers to an(y) individual person, it might be 'one's own self'.

I wasn't sure, either. My one's own self seemed the least worst option at the time.

Quote:
--> 'was selbst als das Sein bestimmt werden muß' - Don't you have any decent Heidegger translation, Andrés? Tuna proposed 'state of being'. What about 'being' on its own?

Some English works I've seen simply stick to the German words Sein and Dasein, sometimes with a footnote attempting to explain the meaning the first time they are used


Quote:
Sorry, but that's the best I can do.

I am not much wiser, but that's Heidegger's fault, not yours. Unless one of our members is an academic philosopher, I don't think Andrés is going to get much more help than you and I were able to offer. At least he now knows from a native speaker that the German is far from clear.


I just couldnt translate this sentence...now I see its maybe untransletable. I hoped that I would find a German speaker that in the act of reading he would magically know which is the main clause, and to what is each adversative clause refering to...

But anyways you have been of such a great help guys! Thanks so much!
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