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I saw the meat Options
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 1:32:19 PM

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Do these make sense?

1 I saw the meat cooking. (= I saw someone cooking the meat)
2 I saw the meat being cooked. (= I saw someone cooking the meat)
3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat which was cooked)
4 I saw the meat having been cooked. (= I saw someone which had been cooked.)
thar
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 2:04:32 PM

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Ivan Fadeev wrote:
Do these make sense?

1 I saw the meat cooking. (= I saw someone cooking the meat)
Well, except here the meat is cooking. Nobody is cooking it.
I saw him walking along the road.
I saw the meat cooking in the oven.


2 I saw the meat being cooked. (= I saw someone cooking the meat)
Yes. It was being cooked.

An adjective goes before he noun - except that cooked meats are a specific thing.
On its own:
I saw the meat when it was cooked (adjective)
I saw the meat when it had been cooked (verb).
In contrast:
I saw the meat raw and I saw the eat cooked, and believe je it looked tastier when it was raw.
both adjectives.

3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat which was cooked)
No.



4 I saw the meat having been cooked. (= I saw someone which had been cooked.)


What is the subject of the participle phrase "having been cooked" - the same as the main sentence.
That means I had been cooked.

You can reduce a clause but only by removing the relative pronoun + a form of the auxiliary "to be". Not to have.
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 2:21:10 PM

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thar wrote:
Ivan Fadeev wrote:

3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat which was cooked)
No.

But these are OK.
I like to have tea cold.
I like to eat meat cooked.

Why is "I saw the meat cooked" wrong? I don't understand.


4 I saw the meat having been cooked. (= I saw someone which had been cooked.)
What is the subject of the participle phrase "having been cooked" - the same as the main sentence.
That means I had been cooked.





I wonder why. To mean I had been cooked.[/color] it should be "I saw the meat WHILE having been cooked."

I saw a man reading. (doesn't mean I was reading)
I saw a man while reading (I was reading)


Audiendus
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 9:40:43 PM
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Ivan Fadeev wrote:
Why is "I saw the meat cooked" wrong? I don't understand.

Because it is ambiguous. It could mean "I saw the meat which was [had been] cooked", but it is more likely to mean "I saw the cooking of the meat". "See" + object + past participle is often used to mean seeing an event, e.g:

I saw the swimmer swept away by a wave.
We saw the painting completed.

These would normally be taken to mean "I saw a wave sweep away the swimmer" and "We saw the artist complete the painting", not "I saw the swimmer[,] who had been swept away by a wave" or "We saw the painting[,] which had been completed".

This ambiguity does not arise with the verb "to like".


Ivan Fadeev wrote:
Quote:
4 I saw the meat having been cooked. (= I saw someone which had been cooked.)
What is the subject of the participle phrase "having been cooked" - the same as the main sentence.
That means I had been cooked.

I wonder why. To mean I had been cooked.[/color] it should be "I saw the meat WHILE having been cooked."

I saw a man reading. (doesn't mean I was reading)
I saw a man while reading (I was reading)

Actually, in order to mean "I had been cooked", (4) would need a comma after "meat". Without a comma, it does mean that the meat had been cooked, but it is not a natural way of expressing this. We would say "I saw the meat which had been cooked" or "I saw the meat, which had been cooked".

"While having been..." is also unnatural. "While" refers to something in progress, but "having been" refers to something completed.
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 10:21:11 PM

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I'd never noticed that before. It's something I'd understand, but I don't think I ever learned it, or would think to tell a student.

Walking along the road, I saw a man. (I was walking along the road - that's fairly simple.)

I saw a man, walking along the road. (I was walking along the road - definitely not so simple. Not something you'd hear normally.)

I saw a man walking along the road.
(The man was walking along the road.)

****************
1 I saw the meat cooking. (= I saw the meat while it was cooking. This is the intransitive verb "to cook" - (of food) to become ready for eating through a heating process.)

2 I saw the meat being cooked. (= I saw someone cooking the meat. Yes - the passive version of the transitive verb "to cook".)

3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat as it was being cooked. "I saw the meat which had been cooked" would be "I saw the cooked meat." "Cooked" as an adjective is not used after the noun.)

4 I saw the meat having been cooked. (I don't know what this would mean. With a comma after meat, it means "After I had been cooked, I saw the meat", but without the comma it doesn't mean anything to me.)

4a. I saw the meat had been cooked. (I saw the fact that 'the meat had been cooked'. I wasn't certain whether anyone had cooked it, so I looked and saw that it had been cooked.
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Saturday, January 2, 2021 11:57:09 PM

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Joined: 2/21/2015
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Thank you Drag0nspeaker and Audiendus!

Drag0nspeaker wrote:

3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat as it was being cooked. "I saw the meat which had been cooked" would be "I saw the cooked meat." "Cooked" as an adjective is not used after the noun.)


Really? What about this?

I saw the meat cooked by Jack.
I saw Frank driving the car drunk. (maybe it's a bit different example)

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 1:11:28 AM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Location: Livingston, Scotland, United Kingdom
Yes.

An adjectival phrase like "cooked by Jack" does come after the noun, so that one is correct.

"I saw the meat cooked by Jack."
"I saw the cooked meat."
"I saw the papers printed by your brother."
"I saw the printed papers."
"I sent the money for the rent."
"I sent the rent money."
(a little different, as "rent" is a noun acting as an adjective. But the effect is the same - the phrase "for the rent", describing money comes after the noun; the single word "rent" describing money comes before the noun. It's not a 100% rule, but a 98% rule.)

I saw Frank driving the car drunk. (maybe it's a bit different example)
Yes - "driving" is a verb, not an adjective. It's a reduced clause "who was driving the car (while) drunk."

*********
The phrase "having been ----ed" (like "having been cooked") is usually part of an adverbial, explaining a reason or cause - or something which happened before the main action. It is usually separated with a comma.
"The meat having been cooked, I started preparing the vegetables."
"The course having been completed, John was free to look for a job."

"John was free to look for a job, the course having been completed." This is an unlikely one - usually it would be in the active voice, like these next two.
"Having completed his course, John was free to look for a job."
"John was free to look for a job, having completed his course."
Audiendus
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 8:27:21 AM
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Ivan Fadeev wrote:
I saw the meat cooked by Jack.

This could refer either to the event (i.e. I saw Jack cook the meat) or to the resulting state of the meat (i.e. I saw the meat which had been cooked by Jack). More likely the latter.

It all depends on the context. In some cases there is only one possible meaning. In others, the correct meaning can be assumed. A good writer will avoid any ambiguity.
Issac Alamu Newton
Posted: Sunday, January 3, 2021 9:05:08 AM

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THANKS for posting this,i learnt alot here.
Ivan Fadeev
Posted: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 2:32:06 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 2/21/2015
Posts: 906
Neurons: 13,236
I have spotted a contradiction which needs clarifying.

thar wrote:

In contrast:
I saw the meat raw and I saw the meat cooked, and believe me it looked tastier when it was raw.
both adjectives.



****
Drag0nspeaker wrote:

3 I saw the meat cooked. (= I saw the meat as it was being cooked. "I saw the meat which had been cooked" would be "I saw the cooked meat." "Cooked" as an adjective is not used after the noun.)
Audiendus
Posted: Wednesday, January 13, 2021 11:40:56 PM
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In "I saw the meat cooked", "cooked" is acting as an object complement rather than a simple adjective. "I saw the meat" is already known; "cooked" adds new information. Compare the following:

I saw the naked man. [adjective]
I saw the man naked. [object complement]

I saw the empty box. [adjective]
I saw the box empty. [object complement]
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