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'International Islamic Solidarity Bank' Vs. 'Solidarity International Islamic Bank' (Word order) Options
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 9:17:28 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.

Also, "Al-Amoudi Central Fish Market and Vegetables", I think, should be written in this order:
Al-Amoudi Fish and Vegetables Central Market

Also, "Al Burj Hospital Advisory", I think, should be written as 'Al Burj Advisory Hospital'
FounDit
Posted: Friday, September 21, 2018 9:45:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,077
Neurons: 63,637
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.

What most strikes me is why the word "solidarity" is included. Is this supposed to refer to solidarity under Islam, or solidarity in banking?

The word seems to be entirely unnecessary in the name of a bank because it isn't clear what solidarity has to do with banking.

Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

Also, "Al-Amoudi Central Fish Market and Vegetables", I think, should be written in this order:
Al-Amoudi Fish and Vegetables Central Market
In this one, I wonder about the word "Central". Is it used because there are other markets around, and this one is centrally located, or is this the only one and it is located in the center of the town or area?

In either case, I would suggest: Al-Amoudi Central Fish and Vegetable Market.

Also, "Al Burj Hospital Advisory", I think, should be written as 'Al Burj Advisory Hospital'
This one suffers from the same kind of confusion. Is the advisory giving advice to the hospital, or is the hospital giving advice to someone else? It isn't clear.

If the advisory is giving advice to the hospital, then your first one works. But if the hospital is advising someone else, then the second one works (though I've never heard of a hospital giving advice. And what kind of advice would that be? -- save plenty of money before you come here? -- stay healthy and you won't have to come here?...Think ).

Sarrriesfan
Posted: Saturday, September 22, 2018 1:19:32 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/2016
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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.

What most strikes me is why the word "solidarity" is included. Is this supposed to refer to solidarity under Islam, or solidarity in banking?

The word seems to be entirely unnecessary in the name of a bank because it isn't clear what solidarity has to do with banking.

Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.


There are more than one International Islamic Banks in existance, a friend of mine used to be a VP at one in the City of London. This means it is necessary to identify which Islamic International Bank you are refering to. Just as when you refer to a National Bank is that the National Bank of Canada, America or any other country.
In the case of using Tadhamon Or Solidarity and where to use it I would go with what the majority use


Also, "Al-Amoudi Central Fish Market and Vegetables", I think, should be written in this order:
Al-Amoudi Fish and Vegetables Central Market
In this one, I wonder about the word "Central". Is it used because there are other markets around, and this one is centrally located, or is this the only one and it is located in the center of the town or area?

In either case, I would suggest: Al-Amoudi Central Fish and Vegetable Market.

Also, "Al Burj Hospital Advisory", I think, should be written as 'Al Burj Advisory Hospital'
This one suffers from the same kind of confusion. Is the advisory giving advice to the hospital, or is the hospital giving advice to someone else? It isn't clear.

If the advisory is giving advice to the hospital, then your first one works. But if the hospital is advising someone else, then the second one works (though I've never heard of a hospital giving advice. And what kind of advice would that be? -- save plenty of money before you come here? -- stay healthy and you won't have to come here?...Think ).

ozok
Posted: Saturday, September 22, 2018 2:50:08 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/2018
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Quote:


There are more than one International Islamic Banks in existance...



I would write:

There is more than one International Islamic Bank in existence...

Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Saturday, September 22, 2018 2:59:19 AM

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ozok wrote:
I would write:
There is more than one ...

It's an odd one. Both could "sound a bit wrong"

If you consider the "There is one" and "There is another one" it seems like "There is more than one."

If you consider "There are several" and "Several means more than one or two", then "There are more than one" sounds right.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2018 9:10:47 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
Neurons: 14,303
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.

What most strikes me is why the word "solidarity" is included. Is this supposed to refer to solidarity under Islam, or solidarity in banking?

The word seems to be entirely unnecessary in the name of a bank because it isn't clear what solidarity has to do with banking.

Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.


Thank you all of you very much indeed,
'Solidarity' is meant to be the proper name of the bank since its proper name in Arabic means "union" in English.
So, I really still see "International Islamic Solidarity Bank" has been still placed in online Google Maps. Whoever wrote it as "International Islamic Solidarity Bank" absolutely meant 'Solidarity" with the proper name of the bank 'Tadhamon'
I tried to edit it as "Tadhamon International Islamic Bank" since 'Solidarity' isn't placed correctly, but it's been still as it it'd been.
So, even if 'Solidarity' can be used interchangeable with the proper name of the bank 'Tadhamon', I don't think its place is correct. It should have been written as "Tadhamon International Islamic Bank" or "Solidarity International Islamic Bank".
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2018 9:26:36 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
Neurons: 14,303
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
ozok wrote:
I would write:
There is more than one ...

It's an odd one. Both could "sound a bit wrong"

If you consider the "There is one" and "There is another one" it seems like "There is more than one."

If you consider "There are several" and "Several means more than one or two", then "There are more than one" sounds right.


Although it is out of topic, here I think that Ozok was confused with what is after 'one', plural or singular, as in "There are more than one International Islamic Banks" or "There is more than one International Islamic Bank"
FounDit
Posted: Friday, September 28, 2018 9:35:04 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,077
Neurons: 63,637
A cooperator wrote:
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.

What most strikes me is why the word "solidarity" is included. Is this supposed to refer to solidarity under Islam, or solidarity in banking?

The word seems to be entirely unnecessary in the name of a bank because it isn't clear what solidarity has to do with banking.

Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.


Thank you all of you very much indeed,
'Solidarity' is meant to be the proper name of the bank since its proper name in Arabic means "union" in English.
So, I really still see "International Islamic Solidarity Bank" has been still placed in online Google Maps. Whoever wrote it as "International Islamic Solidarity Bank" absolutely meant 'Solidarity" with the proper name of the bank 'Tadhamon'
I tried to edit it as "Tadhamon International Islamic Bank" since 'Solidarity' isn't placed correctly, but it's been still as it it'd been.
So, even if 'Solidarity' can be used interchangeable with the proper name of the bank 'Tadhamon', I don't think its place is correct. It should have been written as "Tadhamon International Islamic Bank" or "Solidarity International Islamic Bank".

Ah, I see what you are going for here. The closest in English, I think, would be "United". We have banks here in the States that use that in their name, usually as the first word.

So your title ""Tadhamon International Islamic Bank" or "Solidarity International Islamic Bank" would translate as "United International Islamic Bank".

Does that help?

A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2019 4:19:58 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.

What most strikes me is why the word "solidarity" is included. Is this supposed to refer to solidarity under Islam, or solidarity in banking?

The word seems to be entirely unnecessary in the name of a bank because it isn't clear what solidarity has to do with banking.

Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.


I don't know if I should have initiated a new thread or not. But, I always tend to keep posts published in related thread.
FounDit said "Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first"

But, I've seen this phrase on the topic of when to capitalize job titles somewhere on the Internet:
"U.S Secretary of State Colin Powell"
But, I am wondering why the author didn't phrase it as "Secretary of U.S State Colin Powell", where the descriptive words 'U.S' are first listed like the way "As per Government of India Guidelines" is phrased.

Secondly, do you think I can consider 'U.S Secretary of State Colin Powell" as an alternative to say "U.S Foreign Minister of State Colin Powell"?

Finally, do you think that both "U.S Foreign Minister of State Colin Powell" and "U.S Minister of Foreign of State Colin Powell" are correctly phrased?
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:22:18 PM
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A cooperator wrote:

But, I've seen this phrase on the topic of when to capitalize job titles somewhere on the Internet:
"U.S Secretary of State Colin Powell"
But, I am wondering why the author didn't phrase it as "Secretary of U.S State Colin Powell", where the descriptive words 'U.S' are first listed like the way "As per Government of India Guidelines" is phrased.


Secretary of State is the title of the post. You can't break it up. Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.

Dominic Raab, whose official job title is Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs) is normally referred to as the (UK) Foreign Secretary.
Koh Elaine
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 1:05:18 AM
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Joined: 7/4/2012
Posts: 6,371
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Drag0nspeaker wrote:
ozok wrote:
I would write:
There is more than one ...

It's an odd one. Both could "sound a bit wrong"

If you consider the "There is one" and "There is another one" it seems like "There is more than one."

If you consider "There are several" and "Several means more than one or two", then "There are more than one" sounds right.


I was taught in school that 'more than one is' is correct. Was I taught the wrong thing?
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 10:11:49 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 13,077
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Koh Elaine wrote:
Drag0nspeaker wrote:
ozok wrote:
I would write:
There is more than one ...

It's an odd one. Both could "sound a bit wrong"

If you consider the "There is one" and "There is another one" it seems like "There is more than one."

If you consider "There are several" and "Several means more than one or two", then "There are more than one" sounds right.


I was taught in school that 'more than one is' is correct. Was I taught the wrong thing?


Which word you use would truly depend on your knowledge base. If you know that there is one more, then "there is more than" would be correct. But if you know that there are many more, then "there are more than" is correct.

Alternatively, to cover both, you could say, "there is at (the) least one more/there are at (the) least, two", and this would cover all of them, no matter if there are two, or two dozen.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:34:24 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
Neurons: 14,303
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:

But, I've seen this phrase on the topic of when to capitalize job titles somewhere on the Internet:
"U.S Secretary of State Colin Powell"
But, I am wondering why the author didn't phrase it as "Secretary of U.S State Colin Powell", where the descriptive words 'U.S' are first listed like the way "As per Government of India Guidelines" is phrased.


Secretary of State is the title of the post. You can't break it up. Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.

Dominic Raab, whose official job title is Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs) is normally referred to as the (UK) Foreign Secretary.


Thanks a lot,

But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?
So, I am thinking of it as "Colin Powell is the US Secretary of New York State".
I know the USA stands for United States of America.

In some countries ruled with republican rule, I hear job title of the minister of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is titled with foreign minister. But, never hear 'foreign secretary.


Moreover, I was told that Job titles are only capitalized when used as part of someone’s name(they come before a person's name). The best example of this is as follows (using “president” as an example of a job title):
Have you seen the president?
I am the president.
We’ve asked President Smith for advice.
Are you listening, Madame President?

So, would you be so kind as to tell me why you did capitalize the following:
Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.
the (UK) Foreign Secretary
Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs)
palapaguy
Posted: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:16:24 PM

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But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous. Familiarity and context provide that answer for most readers.


So, would you be so kind as to tell me why you did capitalize the following:
Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.

Because it was his official title as others here have told you.
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:10:22 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone.
I'm almost always faced with a problem ordering words in such phrases:
I see some people write:
International Islamic Solidarity Bank

Others write it as:
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank
Where, in the second one 'Tadhamon' is transliterated to the Arabic name 'تضامن'. however, in the first phrase, 'Solidarity' is used in-place of 'Tadhamon', but in another sequence in the phrase.
Since you say you see people writing this different ways, it suggests that this is not the proper name of a bank.


Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

Also, "Al-Amoudi Central Fish Market and Vegetables", I think, should be written in this order:
Al-Amoudi Fish and Vegetables Central Market
In this one, I wonder about the word "Central". Is it used because there are other markets around, and this one is centrally located, or is this the only one and it is located in the center of the town or area?

In either case, I would suggest: Al-Amoudi Central Fish and Vegetable Market.

Also, "Al Burj Hospital Advisory", I think, should be written as 'Al Burj Advisory Hospital'
This one suffers from the same kind of confusion. Is the advisory giving advice to the hospital, or is the hospital giving advice to someone else? It isn't clear.

If the advisory is giving advice to the hospital, then your first one works. But if the hospital is advising someone else, then the second one works (though I've never heard of a hospital giving advice. And what kind of advice would that be? -- save plenty of money before you come here? -- stay healthy and you won't have to come here?...Think ).



FounDit,
Firstly, if the proper name of the bank is "Tadhamon", then do you think the following word order is perfect English,
Tadhamon International Islamic Bank (TIIB)?

Secondly, about the phrase "Al Burj Hospital Advisory", I don't know if an advisory is giving an advice to hospital or the hospital is giving an advice to someone. But, I think it should be written as 'Al Burj Advisory Hospital' since the literal Arabic translation says what kind of hospital "Al-Burj" is - that's, the phrase including the proper name of the hospital "Al-Burj", along with the word "hospital", is modified by the word "Advisory". So, "Advisory" should be listed in the middle.

Finally, with respect to "Al-Amoudi Fish and Vegetables Central Market", yes, the market is the principe. I think the phrase composing of the proper name of the market "Al-Amoudi', along with the actual word "market", is modified by the actual word "central". That's, if if "Al-Amoudi's market" is modified by the word "central", then we get "Al-Amoudi central market". We cannot say "Al-Amoudi's central market". So, I converted it as a NN phrase.
So, the entire phrase should be:
"Al-Amoudi Central Fish & Vegetable Market"
A cooperator
Posted: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 2:35:14 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
palapaguy wrote:
a cooperator wrote:

So, would you be so kind as to tell me why you did capitalize the following:
Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.

Because it was his official title as others here have told you.

But, I was told job titles are only capitalized when used as part of someone’s name(they come before a person's name). The best example of this is as follows (using “president” as an example of a job title):
Have you seen the president?
I am the president.
We’ve asked President Smith for advice.
Are you listening, Madame President?

Also, I read:
Quote:
Capitalizing People's Titles
and the Names of Political Entities
One of the most frequently asked questions about capitalization is whether or not to capitalize people's job titles or the names of political or quasi-political entities. Most writing manuals nowadays seem to align themselves with the tendency in journalistic circles: less is better. When a title appears ABC as part of a person's name, usually before the name, it is capitalized: Professor Farbman (or Professor of Physics Herschel Farbman), Mayor Perez, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell. On the other hand, when the title appears after the name, it is not capitalized: Herschel Farbman, professor of history; Eddie Perez, mayor of the city of Hartford; Juan Carlos, king of Spain. Although we don't capitalize "professor of history" after the individual's name, we would capitalize department and program names when they are used in full*: "He worked in the Department of Behavioral Sciences before he started to teach physics." (We do not capitalize majors or academic disciplines unless they refer to a language, ethnic group, or geographical entity: Roundbottom is an economics major, but he loves his courses in French and East European studies.)
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 2:59:58 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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palapaguy wrote:
But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous. Familiarity and context provide that answer for most readers.

I've context below, and it's still ambiguous as to which state Colin Powell was appointed as Secretary of State?
Colin Powell:
Jump to Secretary of State (2001–2005) · He was nominated by President Bush on December 16, 2000, as Secretary of State. After being unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate, he was sworn in as the 65th Secretary of State on January 20, 2001. Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations.
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 7:42:34 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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palapaguy wrote:

So, would you be so kind as to tell me why you did capitalize the following:
Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.

Because it was his official title as others here have told you.


This is a follow-up question between me and Ms Melissa Donovan:

I: Hello dear Ms. Melissa,

Firstly, while translating ‘salesman’ on Google Translation, I found this example below in which ‘Principle’ is capitalized. That is the reason I am asking you why it is so, and ‘salesman’ is not.
“In the showroom John McCormack is the Principal salesman with three expert salespeople working under him.”

Secondly, IMHO, I think If someone is the main carpenter on a specific project (with other carpenters following his orders), he would be called “Head Carpenter”, “Lead Carpenter” or “Chief Carpenter”, “Principle Carpenter”, “Main Carpenter” or even “Senior Carpenter”.

So, if someone is the main salesman on a specific project(with other salespeople following his orders), he would be called “Head Salesman”, “lead Salesman”, “Chief Salesman”, “Principle Salesman”, “Main Salesman” or even “Senior Salesman”.
If you were describing his job, you would say “He’s a lead carpenter/lead salesman/principle carpenter/principle salesman . . .” or just “I’m a carpenter/salesman and I’m in charge of _____ project.”

So, I think ‘Principle Salesperson’ is considered here as Job title revealing both the job level(“principle’ is a modifier as a noun, in bold) and the job responsibility.
So, “Principle Salesman” should come in the job title category entitled “Job title revealing both the job level and the job responsibility” which must be capitalized.
As a result, it must be capitalized as in ““In the showroom John McCormack is the Principal salesman with three expert salespeople working under him.”

Finally: IMHO, I think “Head/Chief/Lead/Principle/Main/Senior” can modify any job titles in a trade or academia.
So, the following examples come in this category “Job title revealing both the job level and the job responsibility” and must be capitalized:
Head(Chief/Lead/Principle/Main/Senior) Builder/ Carpenter/Goldsmith/Chef/ Salesman/Prison Officer/ Engineer/Accountant/ Electrical Superintendent,Marketing Manager
a Professor
a Head Professor/The Head Professor of Computer Science Department.
a Assistant Professor
a Teaching Assistant

Melissa Donovan on August 17, 2019 at 5:06 pm
Job titles are only capitalized when used as part of someone’s name. The best example of this is as follows (using “president” as an example of a job title):

Have you seen the president?
I am the president.
We’ve asked President Smith for advice.
Are you listening, Madame President?

As you can see, it’s only capitalized when used as part of someone’s name. That’s why you would see Professor Jones capitalized but “I spoke to the professor” not capitalized.

Having said that, many industries and businesses have their own style guidelines, and it’s not uncommon to see job titles capitalized. Most people assume these words should be capitalized, and so they get capitalized.

In the general rules of grammar, we’d follow the “president” guidelines that I laid out above. The simple fact is that job titles are not proper nouns and only proper nouns get capitalized. However, anyone is free to develop their own style guidelines, and many businesses and industries have done just that. But be mindful that if you capitalize “John is the Principal Salesman,” you would also have to capitalize “Jane is the Salesperson” and “Joe is the Custodian.” If you cap one job title, then they should all be capped.

Hope that helps.

I: Hi dear Ms Melissa, do you think that “presiden”, “professor”, and “head”) shouldn’t be capitalized even in the following since they are not part of a person’s name(They are not preceding a person’s name to whom they are titled)
Trump is the current President of the USA.
He is the existing President of Yemen.
I am the Professor of Computer Science Department.
I am the Head of Computer Science Department.

If yes, they shouldn’t be capitalized, then could I conclude that job titles should only be capitalized if they come before a person’s name?

But, on the free The Free Dictionary(an American online dictionary) forum that, I was told by a native English speaker member the following:
Some guidelines.
A proper post title (which I would capitalise) would often (not always) be one which can be preceded by “the”. A job description would more likely have ‘a’ – but not always.

I’m a security guard. (“security guard” is just ‘what I do”)
I am (the) Security Guard at the National Museum. (“Security Guard” is my post title)

Very often, it’s just that you choose.
If you want to mention your post title, you say “I am the Professor of the Computer Sciences Department.”
If you don’t, you might just say “I am a professor”, if you consider it to be your job.
Or you might want to state your personal title – “I am a Professor” or “I am Professor Jones.”

Which means that member capitalizes the job titles if he he want to mention his post title although the job title are not part of a person’s name.

Melissa Donovan on August 23, 2019 at 1:30 pm
At this point, we’re going in circles. No, those words should not be capitalized. Yes, titles are only capitalized when used as proper nouns (as part of someone’s name). In some industries and companies, style guidelines are established with variants on these rules and standards. It’s not necessarily “wrong” to capitalize some of the terms you’re asking about.

“A native English speaker” is not necessarily an expert, and I would not recommend taking random grammar advice from strangers without first establishing their credibility.

I would strongly suggest picking up a book on English grammar. You should decide if you want to use American or British English, as there are some significant differences (We use American English here at Writing Forward). One of my favorite resources is Grammar Girl, which has a book, a podcast, and a website packed with good information. In fact, you can probably search there to find more answers to these questions on capitalization. She is an authority on these matters.

Also, I recommend using Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary, as it is standard among professional writers and editors. Good luck to you!

However, I see you capitalize the job titles although they are not part of someone's name:
You'd have to call Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister, Chrystia Freeland for Canada's policies.
Colin Powell was the US Secretary of State.
the (UK) Foreign Secretary
Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Emmanuel Jean-Michel Frédéric Macron is a French politician serving as President of France since 14 May 2017. He previously was Minister of the Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs from 2014 to 2016.

palapaguy
Posted: Friday, August 23, 2019 10:43:14 PM

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palapaguy wrote:
But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous. Familiarity and context provide that answer for most readers.

Because it was his official title as others here have told you.


"State" has many definitions. In this case, "State" does NOT mean one of the American geographically distinct States. It has the broader meaning of "the operations or concerns of the government of a country" (from Merriam Webster).

Also, "Secretary of State" is defined by the same source as "the head of the U.S. government department that is in charge of how the country relates to and deals with foreign countries."
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:13:30 AM

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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
palapaguy wrote:
palapaguy wrote:
But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous. Familiarity and context provide that answer for most readers.

Because it was his official title as others here have told you.


"State" has many definitions. In this case, "State" does NOT mean one of the American geographically distinct States. It has the broader meaning of "the operations or concerns of the government of a country" (from Merriam Webster).

Also, "Secretary of State" is defined by the same source as "the head of the U.S. government department that is in charge of how the country relates to and deals with foreign countries."


Thanks a lot,

So, do you think that you don't have a US's foreign affairs minister as Canada, and Yemen, etc. have in order Canada's foreign affairs minister, Yemen's foreign affairs minister? However, you have a US secretary of state as the corresponding to Canada's foreign affairs minister.
palapaguy
Posted: Saturday, August 24, 2019 1:47:49 PM

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palapaguy wrote:
[quote=palapaguy]But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous.


"Secretary of State" does not refer to any U.S State, so it can't be ambiguous. Brick wall



A cooperator
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2019 7:46:48 AM

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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
palapaguy wrote:
palapaguy wrote:
[quote=palapaguy]But, "Secretary of State" alone is ambiguous. I.e. to which state is the "Secretary of State" the title of the post?

No, it is NOT ambiguous.


"Secretary of State" does not refer to any U.S State, so it can't be ambiguous. Brick wall


I think we got that.
But, I am now asking, do you think that you don't have a US's foreign affairs minister as Canada, and Yemen, etc. have in order Canada's foreign affairs minister, Yemen's foreign affairs minister? However, you have a US secretary of state as the corresponding to Canada's foreign affairs minister.
BobShilling
Posted: Monday, August 26, 2019 3:11:35 PM
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A cooperator wrote:
But, I am now asking, do you think that you don't have a US's foreign affairs minister as Canada, and Yemen, etc. have in order Canada's foreign affairs minister, Yemen's foreign affairs minister? However, you have a US secretary of state as the corresponding to Canada's foreign affairs minister.


Palapaguy has already told you: "Secretary of State" is defined by the same source as "the head of the U.S. government department that is in charge of how the country relates to and deals with foreign countries."
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 4:26:07 AM

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BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
But, I am now asking, do you think that you don't have a US's foreign affairs minister as Canada, and Yemen, etc. have in order Canada's foreign affairs minister, Yemen's foreign affairs minister? However, you have a US secretary of state as the corresponding to Canada's foreign affairs minister.


Palapaguy has already told you: "Secretary of State" is defined by the same source as "the head of the U.S. government department that is in charge of how the country relates to and deals with foreign countries."



Yes. He has.
But, so the job title term of a US's foreign affairs minister as Canada's foreign affairs minister isn't found. However, a US secretary of state is considered as the corresponding to Canada's foreign affairs minister.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2019 12:27:19 PM

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FounDit wrote:
Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

If so, then why is the "Mute snoring nasal device" not phrased as the "nasal snoring mute device" or the "nasal snoring-muting device"?
The Mute snoring nasal device is not for the treatment of sleep apnea.

That is, if making a comparison of ordering the words in the two phrases, (where "Tadhamon" and "Mute" seem to be proper names since they are capitalized) then we'll find the word order in the Arabic translation as this order "Blue + Black + Red + Orange":

Tadhamon international Islamic bank

The Mute nasal snoring device

The Mute snoring nasal device


If "Tadhamon" and "mute" are not proper names, then we should get this word order:

international Islamic solidarity bank
snoring nasal mute device.
A cooperator
Posted: Sunday, September 1, 2019 6:14:10 AM

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Could anyone please someone at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to reply to my last post?
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Sunday, September 1, 2019 8:13:13 AM

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A cooperator wrote:
FounDit wrote:
Normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

If so, then why is the "Mute snoring nasal device" not phrased as the "nasal snoring mute device" or the "nasal snoring-muting device"?
The Mute snoring nasal device is not for the treatment of sleep apnea.

That is, if making a comparison of ordering the words in the two phrases, (where "Tadhamon" and "Mute" seem to be proper names since they are capitalized) then we'll find the word order in the Arabic translation as this order "Blue + Black + Red + Orange":

Tadhamon international Islamic bank

The Mute nasal snoring device

The Mute snoring nasal device


If "Tadhamon" and "mute" are not proper names, then we should get this word order:

international Islamic solidarity bank
snoring nasal mute device.


The device is designed to mute snoring, but what kind of snoring from the nose or the mouth?
Nasal comes before snoring as it describes which kind of snoring the device is supposed to alleviate.
“Snoring nasal mute device” does not work as a name, but for me the other two alternatives would it’s just a matter of choice.
I will agree it’s not a proper CPAP device, I use one of those but for people with a low grade problem it might work.
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 7:34:01 AM

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Sarrriesfan wrote:

The device is designed to mute snoring, but what kind of snoring from the nose or the mouth?
Nasal comes before snoring as it describes which kind of snoring the device is supposed to alleviate.
“Snoring nasal mute device” does not work as a name, but for me the other two alternatives would it’s just a matter of choice.
I will agree it’s not a proper CPAP device, I use one of those but for people with a low grade problem it might work.


Hi Sarriesfan,
I really see many people writing the names of some organizations and store, shops, etc with an incorrect wordings order.
FounDit, made it clear in the general rules of grammar, normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

So, could you please help me with a general rule I can follow when needing to write the names of some organisations(such as ministry, school, institute, bank, restaurant, hotel, store, shop, etc)?

For instance, I see "Municipal office education" and "Socotra Island "Nature Sanctuary" are clumsy wording orders. I think they should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education", and "Nature Socotra Island Sanctuary"/"Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island".

Also, why do I sometime see people capitalizing the names of organization, such as "Horizons Travel & Tourism", "Cooperative Agricultural Credit Bank (CAC), Ministry of Finance? I don't think they are proper names.

Educational center
Educational consultant
Educational institute
Educational supply store
Educational testing service
Board of education
Adult education school
Department of education
Ministry of education
Municipal office education
Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary
Emergency management ministry
Cooperative agricultural credit bank (CAC)
Yemen commercial bank
The national bank of Yemen
Municipal office
Horizons travel & tourism
Horizons travel & tourism agency
John's upholstery
Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's goldsmith workshop
Gray's Jewellery store
Sarrriesfan
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:51:16 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/2016
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Location: Luton, England, United Kingdom
A cooperator wrote:
Sarrriesfan wrote:

The device is designed to mute snoring, but what kind of snoring from the nose or the mouth?
Nasal comes before snoring as it describes which kind of snoring the device is supposed to alleviate.
“Snoring nasal mute device” does not work as a name, but for me the other two alternatives would it’s just a matter of choice.
I will agree it’s not a proper CPAP device, I use one of those but for people with a low grade problem it might work.


Hi Sarriesfan,
I really see many people writing the names of some organizations and store, shops, etc with an incorrect wordings order.
FounDit, made it clear in the general rules of grammar, normally, in English, we list the descriptive words first, so the simplest solution is to just call it the International Islamic Bank.

So, could you please help me with a general rule I can follow when needing to write the names of some organisations(such as ministry, school, institute, bank, restaurant, hotel, store, shop, etc)?

For instance, I see "Municipal office education" and "Socotra Island "Nature Sanctuary" are clumsy wording orders. I think they should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education", and "Nature Socotra Island Sanctuary"/"Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island".

Also, why do I sometime see people capitalizing the names of organization, such as "Horizons Travel & Tourism", "Cooperative Agricultural Credit Bank (CAC), Ministry of Finance? I don't think they are proper names.

Educational center
Educational consultant
Educational institute
Educational supply store
Educational testing service
Board of education
Adult education school
Department of education
Ministry of education
Municipal office education
Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary
Emergency management ministry
Cooperative agricultural credit bank (CAC)
Yemen commercial bank
The national bank of Yemen
Municipal office
Horizons travel & tourism
Horizons travel & tourism agency
John's upholstery
Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's goldsmith workshop
Gray's Jewellery store


Hello a cooperator.
With regard to your last question they may not be proper names but if you are referring to a specific place they are proper nouns and should be capitalised.
If I say “I am going to see a travel agency to book a holiday” then that is a common noun and a lower case as you have not specified which one your are going to.
If I say “I am going to Horizon Travel and Tourism Agency” its a specific place and it takes the capitalisation.
With your examples they are proper nouns and should have capitals if they are used as the title of a specific place although often linking words like and, the and of often do not.

https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/parts-of-speech/nouns/common-and-proper-noun.html

”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” is the correct way to say it for me, it’s a nature sanctuary but of all the nature sanctuaries in the world it is the one on Socotra Island although the “Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” is also correct it’s just a matter of preference.
“Nature Socotra Island Sanctuary” is wrong, nature and sanctuary should be kept together .
A cooperator
Posted: Friday, September 20, 2019 9:17:16 PM

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Joined: 10/27/2011
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Sarriesfan,
"Municipal office education, I think it should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education"

I can list a noun in the end of a wording order regardless if it was preceded by other words or not?
John's upholstery
John's upholstery shop [or we should say 'John's shop for upholstery"]
Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's shoes and slippers shop [or we should say "Gray's shop for shoes and slippers"]
Gray's goldsmith
Gray's goldsmith workshop [or we should say 'Gray's workshop for goldsmith"]
Gray's Jewellery
Gray's jewellery store [or we should say "Gray's store for jewellery"]

Gray's group of companies
Gray's trading and importing group of companies [or we should say "Gray's group of companies for trading and importing"]



Besides,
Sarriesfan
”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” is the correct way to say it for me, it’s a nature sanctuary but of all the nature sanctuaries in the world it is the one on Socotra Island although the “Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” is also correct it’s just a matter of preference."[/quote]
Yes, I agree that :\"”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” or "“Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” are both correct. I think it is unnatural to say “Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary” since 'Socotra Island' is inanimate.

For inanimate things, we can use NN phrase or 'of' phrase (possession), but we cannot use "apostrophe"

Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary/Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island
Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary
The GSK group of companies
The GSK's group of companies

However, for animate things, we use all NN phrase or 'of' phrase (possession) and "apostrophe"
Gray's group of companies
Gray group of companies
Group of companies of Gray.
John's shopping store
John shopping store.
Shopping store of John
A cooperator
Posted: Thursday, September 26, 2019 8:32:45 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could anyone at this splendid forum take some of his precious time out to reply to me?

For, "Municipal office education, I think it should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education"

I can list a noun in the end of a wording order regardless if it was preceded by other words or not?
John's upholstery
John's upholstery shop [or we should say 'John's shop for upholstery"]

Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's shoes and slippers shop [or we should say "Gray's shop for shoes and slippers"]

Gray's goldsmith
Gray's goldsmith workshop [or we should say "Gray's workshop for goldsmith"]

Gray's Jewellery
Gray's jewellery store [or we should say "Gray's store for jewellery"]


Gray's group of companies
Gray's trading and importing group of companies [or we should say "Gray's group of companies for trading and importing"]

Korea's centers
Korea's Disease Control and Prevention Centers[or we should say "Korea's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention"]



Besides,
Sarriesfan
Quote:
”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” is the correct way to say it for me, it’s a nature sanctuary but of all the nature sanctuaries in the world it is the one on Socotra Island although the “Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” is also correct it’s just a matter of preference."

Yes, I agree that :\"”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” or "“Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” are both correct. I think it is unnatural to say “Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary” since 'Socotra Island' is inanimate.

For inanimate things, we can use either NN phrase or 'of' phrase (possession), but we cannot use "apostrophe"


Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary ["apostrophe"]
Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary [NN phrase]
Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island ["of" phrase (possession)]

The GSK's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
The GSK group of companies [NN phrase]
The group of companies of the GSK ["of" phrase (possession)]




However, for animate things, we use either NN phrase, 'of' phrase (possession), or "apostrophe"
Gray's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
Gray group of companies[NN phrase]
Group of companies of Gray. ['of' phrase (possession)]

John's shopping store ["apostrophe"]
John shopping store. [NN phrase]
Shopping store of John ['of' phrase (possession)]

a person's way of speaking a language ["apostrophe"]
The way of speaking a language of a person. ['of' phrase (possession)]
a person way of speaking a language [NN phrase]

the world's greatest guitarist
the greatest guitarist of the world
the world greatest guitarist.
A cooperator
Posted: Saturday, September 28, 2019 8:04:26 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
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Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to reply to me?


First, For, "Municipal office education, I think it should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education"

Second, I can list a noun in the end of a wording order regardless if it was preceded by other words or not?
John's upholstery
John's upholstery shop [or we should say 'John's shop for upholstery"]

Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's shoes and slippers shop [or we should say "Gray's shop for shoes and slippers"]

Gray's goldsmith
Gray's goldsmith workshop [or we should say "Gray's workshop for goldsmith"]

Gray's Jewellery
Gray's jewellery store [or we should say "Gray's store for jewellery"]


Gray's group of companies
Gray's trading and importing group of companies [or we should say "Gray's group of companies for trading and importing"]

Korea's centers
Korea's Disease Control and Prevention Centers[or we should say "Korea's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention"]

Head of Finnish National Agency
Head of Finnish National Education Agency [or we should say "head of Finnish National Agency for Education"]


Final,
Sarriesfan
Quote:
”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” is the correct way to say it for me, it’s a nature sanctuary but of all the nature sanctuaries in the world it is the one on Socotra Island although the “Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” is also correct it’s just a matter of preference."

Yes, I agree that :\"”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” or "“Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” are both correct. I think it is unnatural to say “Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary” since 'Socotra Island' is inanimate.

For inanimate things, we can use either NN phrase or 'of' phrase (possession), but we cannot use "apostrophe"


Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary ["apostrophe"]
Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary [NN phrase]
Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island ["of" phrase (possession)]

The GSK's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
The GSK group of companies [NN phrase]
The group of companies of the GSK ["of" phrase (possession)]




However, for animate things, we use either NN phrase, 'of' phrase (possession), or "apostrophe"
Gray's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
Gray group of companies[NN phrase]
Group of companies of Gray. ['of' phrase (possession)]

John's shopping store ["apostrophe"]
John shopping store. [NN phrase]
Shopping store of John ['of' phrase (possession)]

a person's way of speaking a language ["apostrophe"]
The way of speaking a language of a person. ['of' phrase (possession)] [The word order looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]
a person way of speaking a language [NN phrase] [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]

the world's greatest guitarist
the greatest guitarist of the world [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]
the world greatest guitarist. [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]
BobShilling
Posted: Sunday, September 29, 2019 4:37:17 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 4/1/2018
Posts: 1,441
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Location: Beroun, Stredocesky, Czech Republic
A cooperator wrote:
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to reply to me?

I frequently have neither the time nor energy to wade through your long posts and then try to work out how to responded effectively..

I have suggested before that you ask one question at a time (with follow-up questions if needed), and that you shorten your quotes so that they contain only the specific word(s)/sentence(s) you are asking about/commenting on.

I am sure that you would get more, and more helpful, responses from more members if you did that.
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 6:45:49 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
Neurons: 14,303
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to reply to me?

I frequently have neither the time nor energy to wade through your long posts and then try to work out how to responded effectively..

I have suggested before that you ask one question at a time (with follow-up questions if needed), and that you shorten your quotes so that they contain only the specific word(s)/sentence(s) you are asking about/commenting on.

I am sure that you would get more, and more helpful, responses from more members if you did that.


Thanks a lot,
BobShilling,
First, For, "Municipal office education, I think it should read as "Municipal education office"/ "office of Municipal education"

Second, can I list a noun in the end of a wording order regardless if it was preceded by other words or not?
John's upholstery
John's upholstery shop [or we should say 'John's shop for upholstery"]

Gray's shoes and slippers
Gray's shoes and slippers shop [or we should say "Gray's shop for shoes and slippers"]

Gray's goldsmith
Gray's goldsmith workshop [or we should say "Gray's workshop for goldsmith"]

Gray's Jewellery
Gray's jewellery store [or we should say "Gray's store for jewellery"]


Gray's group of companies
Gray's trading and importing group of companies [or we should say "Gray's group of companies for trading and importing"]

Korea's centers
Korea's Disease Control and Prevention Centers[or we should say "Korea's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention"]

Head of Finnish National Agency
Head of Finnish National Education Agency [or we should say "head of Finnish National Agency for Education"]
A cooperator
Posted: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 6:57:58 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/2011
Posts: 3,735
Neurons: 14,303
Location: Seiyun, Hadramawt, Yemen
Sarriesfan said:
Quote:
”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” is the correct way to say it for me, it’s a nature sanctuary but of all the nature sanctuaries in the world it is the one on Socotra Island although the “Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” is also correct it’s just a matter of preference."


Yes, I agree that "”Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary” or "“Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island” are both correct. I think it is unnatural to say “Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary” since 'Socotra Island' is inanimate thing.

For things belonging to inanimate things, there only two ✌ ways of phrasing:
We use either NN phrase, 'of' phrase (possession), but it's not prefered to use "apostrophe":


Socotra Island's Nature Sanctuary ["apostrophe"]
Socotra Island Nature Sanctuary [NN phrase]
Nature Sanctuary of Socotra Island ["of" phrase (possession)]

The GSK's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
The GSK group of companies [NN phrase]
The group of companies of the GSK ["of" phrase (possession)]




However, for things belonging to animate things, there are three ⚞ ways of phrasing:
We use either NN phrase, 'of' phrase (possession), or "apostrophe":

Gray's group of companies ["apostrophe"]
Gray group of companies[NN phrase]
Group of companies of Gray. ['of' phrase (possession)]

John's shopping store ["apostrophe"]
John shopping store. [NN phrase]
Shopping store of John ['of' phrase (possession)]

a person's way of speaking a language ["apostrophe"]
The way of speaking a language of a person. ['of' phrase (possession)] [The word order looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]
a person way of speaking a language [NN phrase] [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]

the world's greatest guitarist
the greatest guitarist of the world [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]
the world greatest guitarist. [It looks clumsy, but I only followed the same logic]

Someone's thread entitled "Do apostrophes' still matter?" is also putting the same questions to members.
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