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This sounds like a reasoned argument . . . Options
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:22:34 PM

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BobShilling wrote:
As far as I know, nobody is calling for abolition of border controls.


No, this is just a text book example of a straw man argument.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 4:26:59 PM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

FD, It is impossible to have authentic discourse with you when you refuse to acknowledge that you are not even talking about the same thing Ocasio-Cortez is talking about. In fact, what she would like to happen in the US is not my fantasy but pretty much an actuality in Canada and other countries.

Say what? She is talking about abolishing ICE, which would abolish any control of our borders. I think I mentioned that very thing, so I did talk about the same thing she did.

So you say that what she wants for us is pretty much an actuality in Canada and other countries? You all have no border enforcement? When did that happen?

C'mon FounDit. Give me a break. You can't be that obtuse. The topic was that OC is not a Marxist Socialist but a democratic socialist. Canada is a capitalist system within a democracy and has socialistic tendencies to help those less fortunate. And if the US had as good an immigration system as Canada does, you wouldn't be in this mess.

You are correct when you say we can’t have a discourse, because what you say makes no sense, and is provably untrue. When you begin with such a silly statement, It’s hard to take you seriously.

She tells Colbert she wants people to have healthcare, access to a college or trade-school education, homes, and food. We do have all those things. All you have to do is work for them, but perhaps she thinks the government should provide them?

You make too many suppositions about how she would try to achieve it. You have healthcare for everyone? That's a laugh. What happened to all those poor people in the midwest? So you're an expert on housing in New York which is her community? .

Every creature on Earth has to work for what it gets. The only exceptions are for babies and children. Parents provide money, housing, and healthcare for their babies and children. So which one of those does it make a person who needs a big “Daddy” government to provide those things for them? And if those things can be provided, they can also be taken away.

But doesn’t it undermine the whole “Women’s Movement” meme that a woman says she needs a powerful “Daddy” government to protect and provide for her? That rather alters the old slogan of “I am woman, hear me roar!” to “I am woman, hear me whine and demand!”

What happened to being strong, independent, and able to take care of yourselves? Sounds like a typical Handmaid's Tale to me. It would be more helpful to women if they spoke with some consistency.

With those comments I see you have no effing idea what the Handmaid's Tale is about, nor what OC is recommending. It has nothing to do with women per se. Your negative attitude towards women is showing. The sky does not fall when those less fortunate get a hand to help themselves. A decent minimum wage for starters and not having to go bankrupt to pay for an operation or having to choose between meds and food when drug companies are posting huge profits. etc. These are not handouts and people still work and are responsible for themselves. I'm sure there's always fraud with humans but thinking of all welfare cases as those who sit on their asses is demeaning and old-fashioned to most of those who need help.

Speaking of Socialism and the Big “Daddy” state, defending it becomes a bit awkward when we have the New York Times report from Copenhagen focusing on the socialist-leaning state’s new immigration policy. The policy states that: “Starting at the age of 1, ‘ghetto children’” — that’s apparently the official term used by the Danish government — “must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in ‘Danish values,’ including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments.”

Hmm, might we see something similar under American Socialism such as, mandatory instruction in the New American values, including, but not limited to, Global Climate Change, Diversity, “Intersectionality” (whatever-the-hell that is), Gender “studies” (navel gazing), the sin of being born white, and of course, elimination of Christmas and Easter. Islam would be welcomed, however (for a time…*ahem*). This gives new meaning to the words: “There is something rotten in Denmark”. No, thank you.

Boo hoo! What an imagination you have! No wonder you think the sky is falling. You need to take a deep breath.

DragOnspeaker wrote:

Again we have a few socialist ideas labelled as "Marxist/Communist".
They are worlds apart.

None of these people you name - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, and now Maduro in Venezuela - were socialist or acted in the LEAST bit socially. They were all dictators pretending to work "for the people".

Right, so why would I want to have any system that even remotely approaches what they had/have? I would rather improve the one we already have.

FounDit wrote:
But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT.

No - a 'twit' from Mike McKinnon III said it.

Actually, I said: “Without borders, a country cannot exist, so abolishing ICE is essentially abolishing borders, which destroys the country; and this is what I said Progressives want to do. But I said it because, in essence, THEY SAY IT.”

And that is true. Ocasio-Cortez and others on the Left are calling for the abolition of ICE, which would result in no border enforcement. That part had nothing to do with nycDSA.


That "nycDSA status" on Twitter is so obviously someone pretending to be DSA, but spouting deliberately unpopular anarchist propaganda (nothing in it is socialist).
Nothing in that whole 'status' says anything positive about DSA - it is totally anti-DSA.


I don’t know what you are talking about here, because I took their description of themselves straight from their page:
https://twitter.com/nycDSA



This is a different link and looks to be legit for the Socialist-Democrats of between 30 to 40 thousand members. It is not the whole Democratic Party.

The tweet above the poster says get ICE out of New York City. Nothing about borders.

Nor does it say anything about cash bail, prisons, or profits as the fake account does - a Trumpeter or even a Russian bot account?

However, any Dems who are calling for it now might be making a huge mistake. Perez is not one of them. He says ICE needa to be reformed, not abolished and maybe the disenfranchised minorities might just be energized by this reform and get out and vote. It is hard to tell what is best for them to do.






Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 11:17:32 PM

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I must apologize to you DragOnspeaker. After my last post today, and having given it some thought, I realized that, while I at first tried to stay on the topic of the video and the subject matter, the topic quickly devolved into criticizing what a poster says rather than the OP. I am as much to blame because I allowed myself to get pulled in that direction. Therefore, I'm not going to bother with reading any further posts, and will leave it there. Sorry.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 9:22:46 AM

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Back on topic. Since the video is likely that of an actor being paid to say these things, we can't take the video at face value. FD is correct in that they are the opinions of someone, so who? I think the next discussion related to this should be looking into who is behind this disinformation. I've been doing some Google-Fu and will probably have another thread started on that subject.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 10:09:06 AM

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Thanks for getting us back on track, Proggy, after the very first post after the OP led us astray.

I searched for Google-fu as I have never heard of it. I see it is a specialized search but how does one get into it?

Was it genuine opinion or a paid actor pretending to switch from being Democrat? If the latter, who paid him? That is an interesting question.

Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:05:58 AM

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Joined: 9/12/2011
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Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:36:04 AM

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Hope, I'm sorry about the confusion. Google-Fu is just nerd talk for doing a search. I usually try to keep my IT jargon out of these, but I failed.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:29:36 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Proggy,



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 12:33:45 PM

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Posts: 8,165
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Drag0nspeaker wrote:


Tell lies on the internet? Nooo. Of course not. Especially not on a dictionary site. Whistle



Elitism is the slur directed at merit by mediocrity. -Sydney J. Harris, journalist (14 Sep 1917-1986)
will
Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2018 5:16:04 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/29/2009
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leonAzul wrote:
It is my humble opinion that video is certainly more coherent than this one.

Say what you like about Hitler, but there was a man who could draw a big crowd. I don’t think he gets enough credit for that. He broke all of Marlene Dietrich’s records, no one talks about that, and he didn’t even have a glockenspiel or schäferpfeife. Whistle


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