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philips daughter
Posted: Thursday, February 8, 2018 11:00:48 AM

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Where Donald Trump’s Border Wall Would Start - The Wall Street Journal
https://apple.news/AWIsC667nTjG-P6jqINnZYw

I hope some of you can see this article. I’m trying, but it’s my phone. Not me 🙄🙃
Drag0nspeaker
Posted: Thursday, February 8, 2018 11:56:08 AM

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Hi!
I got the same article on a different (non-Apple) link - here.
But you have to sign in to the Wall Street Journal to read it.

It's at Alamo! How fitting!
Right in the middle of the Santa Ana Wildlife Preserve - amazing.

I was surprised, some months ago, to read the actual history of the area.

Texas was part of Mexico.
'Americans' - 'Texians' from the southern colonies migrated one by one into the Mexican towns - then brought their families - and friends - until they almost outnumbered the original inhabitants. A "slow, silent invasion".
Then a bunch of terrorists (James Bowie, Davy Crockett, William Travis) attacked and took over an ex-monastery (the Alamo).
"The battle of the Alamo" was simply the army moving in and driving the rebel terrorists out.
Despite the fact that neither the Mexican government nor the Rebel "Texian" group were connected to the relatively-new USA, American troops repeatedly harassed the Mexican army, even on their own territory.
When the Texas Republic separated from Mexico, they did not join the USA - it was a few years later that the USA annexed the Republic and took over.


Wyrd bið ful aræd - bull!
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:47:25 PM

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Ignorance run rampant!

Alamo, Texas is a city that is miles North of the Santa Ana Wildlife Preserve on the border, and is NOT where a wall would be built. That is just plain stupid.

And I hope no one seriously takes that bastardized account of the history of Texas to be truth. It has so many omitted facts in it that it resembles a fishnet more than a history.


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
jacobusmaximus
Posted: Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:30:48 PM

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FounDit wrote:
Ignorance run rampant!

Alamo, Texas is a city that is miles North of the Santa Ana Wildlife Preserve on the border, and is NOT where a wall would be built. That is just plain stupid.

And I hope no one seriously takes that bastardized account of the history of Texas to be truth. It has so many omitted facts in it that it resembles a fishnet more than a history.





A similar piece of misinformation attaches itself to Hadrian's wall. So many folks think it separates England and Scotland, but it is wholly within England.

I remember, therefore I am.
philips daughter
Posted: Thursday, February 8, 2018 6:46:50 PM

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I didn’t see any where in that article that stated that the wildlife reserve was in the actual town of Alamo. As most news articles do they cite the name of the town closest to the place being reported on. As far as the distance between the two 45 miles is not far in Texas. I lived on a farm 30 miles from the school. Not that far in this very rural state. And as far as your characterization of DragO’s Texas history I would say it was much more accurate than what you saw on the old movies. It depends on who you are as to how you perceive it. Calling it “bastardized” is insulting and racist. It is just not your opinion that counts. I would like to think those of us whose ancestors lived it would have a more accurate account.

And you missed what the tragedy is. This is the home of ocelots, 621 species of birds (some are migratory), butterfly sanctuary is being bulldozed down as I type this. Even without funding, even without Congressional approval they are beginning destruction of areas that will never be again. And you want to argue about history? Get Woke! This why people still support Trump. They miss what is real to argue about dubious past. Makes me wonder why the distances matter more the tragedy.
progpen
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 4:49:07 AM

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Some more info regarding the ecological impact of the wall.
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/4/10/14471304/trump-border-wall-animals

And we have evidence from the existing walls and fences to prove it.
They’ve cut off, isolated, and reduced populations of some of the rarest and most amazing animals in North America, like the jaguar and ocelot (also known as the dwarf jaguar). They’ve led to the creation of miles of roads through pristine wilderness areas. They’ve even exacerbated flooding, becoming dams when rivers have overflowed.



Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 4:53:08 AM

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https://archpaper.com/2017/11/border-wall-destruction-texan-homes-wildlife-preserves/

Another article talking about how it is proposed to go through the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 5:12:01 AM

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One very common misconception about the current occupant of the White House's "Wall" is that it will somehow magically follow the national border between the US and Mexico. There are more legal obstacles to this than physical, even though the government has shown no hesitation to take land from US citizens.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
FounDit
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 11:46:00 AM

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philips daughter wrote:
I didn’t see any where in that article that stated that the wildlife reserve was in the actual town of Alamo.

Then you weren't paying attention. The article starts with: "ALAMO, Texas—Set on the winding Rio Grande, the Santa Ana National Wildlife Refuge is home to 400 species of birds, an endangered wildcat and, if President Donald Trump gets his way, a towering border wall."

This plainly links Alamo, Texas with the Wildlife Refuge, and it is not. This is clear because DragOnspeaker's post plainly shows that was the impression he got when he stated, "It's at Alamo! How fitting!
Right in the middle of the Santa Ana Wildlife Preserve - amazing."

The article should have begun with the Refuge itself, not with the nearest city to it.


As most news articles do they cite the name of the town closest to the place being reported on. As far as the distance between the two 45 miles is not far in Texas. I lived on a farm 30 miles from the school. Not that far in this very rural state.
I appreciate your schooling me on distances in Texas, but since I live in a rural area near this place, some miles from a town or city, I'm very aware of that.

And as far as your characterization of DragO’s Texas history I would say it was much more accurate than what you saw on the old movies.
And you are sure and certain that my knowledge of Texas history comes from old movies -- how? What other feats of clairvoyance are you capable of? This is intriguing.


It depends on who you are as to how you perceive it. Calling it “bastardized” is insulting and racist.
It is neither. You really should look up the definition of words before you assume you know what they mean. "Bastardized" simply means something is lower in quality.

It is just not your opinion that counts. I would like to think those of us whose ancestors lived it would have a more accurate account.
If you have a more accurate account, then you should have critiqued the History channel version also, because it omitted a tremendous number of facts.

And you missed what the tragedy is. This is the home of ocelots, 621 species of birds (some are migratory), butterfly sanctuary is being bulldozed down as I type this. Even without funding, even without Congressional approval they are beginning destruction of areas that will never be again. And you want to argue about history? Get Woke! This why people still support Trump. They miss what is real to argue about dubious past. Makes me wonder why the distances matter more the tragedy.
Tragedy? Well, let's see. When I put the safety and security of the population of the United States against the murders committed by illegals, the cost incurred in supporting them, the ramifications of flooding the country with people who seem to have no problem with violating our laws and demanding citizenship on the one hand, and some ocelots, birds and butterflies on the other hand, I really don't see the tragedy being on the side of the critters.

In case you are unaware of it, birds and butterflies can fly over any wall, and ocelots are adaptable to changes in their environment, as evidenced by their continued presence after enduring fires, drought, floods, hurricanes, and yes, even human encroachment. Besides that, how do you know that consideration won't be made for them? Is this another facet of your clairvoyance?



We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 1:17:47 PM

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http://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Immigration-and-Public-Safety.pdf

Immigrants commit crime at a lower rate than US citizens. The wall will be a wonderful symbol representing the phallus of the current occupant of the White House. Just like the military parade. But the wall will do nothing else except waste even more taxpayer money. But the Republican Party has shown themselves to be excellent at increasing the deficit and giving away taxpayer money.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 7:38:56 PM

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Related thread -

https://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postst153256_What-Happens-to-Wildlife-When-Humans-Build-Walls-or-Highways-.aspx

Animals can be somewhat accommodated for protection against human activity, but the fragile ecosystems can be upset.

Surely there must be ways to go around a wildlife sanctuary.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Friday, February 9, 2018 7:48:09 PM

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It is not a matter of paying attention. Philip's Daughter is correct. The dateline of every story does not tell the location of the story. The dateline starts with the city in which the reporter has written or dispatched the report.

FD, I always thought bastardized meant debased. What are some of the facts left out that you think are important? Guess I could go read up on it but to ask you is easier. :)

Illegal immigration is a big problem for any country. It is estimated that nearly 40% of illegals in the US are overstays, and a large percentage of those arrive by plane. It is estimated that there are 100,000 illegal Canadians living in the US. It would be nice if the US would also build a wall in the north which would stop land illegals in both directions!

An idea for both the US and Canada re overstays - not only does a traveller need a paper to be admitted into Mexico, but they must hand that paper back in when they LEAVE. Simple, no?

I don't know the area nor the latest info on the location but here are three sources about the story.

From the San Antonio Current last year. "It began in mid-July, when a federal official told the Texas Observer of U.S. Custom and Border Patrol's plan to install a 18-foot border wall through nearly three miles of the federally-owned Santa Ana National Wildlife

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/27/protest-set-for-texas-wildlife-refuge-at-ground-zero-of-trumps-border-wall-plan

The wall has been challenged as needing normal environmental reviews. And guess who is the judge? Remember Judge Curiel?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-politics/trump-faces-legal-challenge-on-border-wall-with-mexico/article37916986/

"Judge Gonzalo Curiel will hear arguments Friday on a lawsuit from the state of California and advocacy groups that a border wall with Mexico must go through normal environmental reviews, which could cause major delays. The Trump administration wants Curiel to dismiss the challenges, and wall opponents want him to immediately rule in their favour.

Trump repeatedly criticized Curiel in 2016 as lawsuits against Trump University neared trial, suggesting that the judge's Mexican heritage meant he could not be impartial in the fraud cases. Trump settled for $25-million shortly after winning the election, without admitting wrongdoing."




The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
almo 1
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 1:47:17 PM
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progpen
Posted: Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:12:16 PM

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Hope123 wrote:
It is not a matter of paying attention. Philip's Daughter is correct. The dateline of every story does not tell the location of the story. The dateline starts with the city in which the reporter has written or dispatched the report.


Absolutely. I've lived in rural areas in the midwest and whenever anything newsworthy happened the news article would be "Des Moines, IA" or "Omaha, NE" or "Minneapolis, MN" even if the story was about a place hours away.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
RuthP
Posted: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:07:24 PM

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FounDit wrote:
philips daughter wrote:
I didn’t see any where in that article that stated that the wildlife reserve was in the actual town of Alamo.

Then you weren't paying attention. The article starts with: "ALAMO, Texas—Set on the winding Rio Grande,

Bold added by me. The "ALAMO, Texas" part of this is what is known as a dateline. (I know, I know, what does it have to do with a date? No idea. That's just the name.) A dateline is where the reporter(s) is(are) based. It is not an integral part of the story. It is standard in news reports. It should be familiar to anyone accustomed to reading paper newspaper stories (you know, real ink-on-your-hands newspapers). Datelines are also seen in online stories by traditional news sources, i.e. most newspapers with an online presence will have a dateline, written this way, on their online stories.

Dateline locations may not be particularly close to the location the story covers. Check out international stories some time. Especially for reports on "conflict areas" (read: "war areas"), the dateline will often be in a neighboring country.

The refuge, which is under discussion in this story (unlike Alamo, Tx), runs right up to the Rio Grande. If a wall were built in this area, it would definitely impact the wildlife in the refuge.





the Santa Ana National Wildlife Refuge is home to 400 species of birds, an endangered wildcat and, if President Donald Trump gets his way, a towering border wall."

This plainly links Alamo, Texas with the Wildlife Refuge, and it is not. This is clear because DragOnspeaker's post plainly shows that was the impression he got when he stated, "It's at Alamo! How fitting!
Right in the middle of the Santa Ana Wildlife Preserve - amazing."

The article should have begun with the Refuge itself, not with the nearest city to it.


As most news articles do they cite the name of the town closest to the place being reported on. As far as the distance between the two 45 miles is not far in Texas. I lived on a farm 30 miles from the school. Not that far in this very rural state.
I appreciate your schooling me on distances in Texas, but since I live in a rural area near this place, some miles from a town or city, I'm very aware of that.

And as far as your characterization of DragO’s Texas history I would say it was much more accurate than what you saw on the old movies.
And you are sure and certain that my knowledge of Texas history comes from old movies -- how? What other feats of clairvoyance are you capable of? This is intriguing.


It depends on who you are as to how you perceive it. Calling it “bastardized” is insulting and racist.
It is neither. You really should look up the definition of words before you assume you know what they mean. "Bastardized" simply means something is lower in quality.

It is just not your opinion that counts. I would like to think those of us whose ancestors lived it would have a more accurate account.
If you have a more accurate account, then you should have critiqued the History channel version also, because it omitted a tremendous number of facts.

And you missed what the tragedy is. This is the home of ocelots, 621 species of birds (some are migratory), butterfly sanctuary is being bulldozed down as I type this. Even without funding, even without Congressional approval they are beginning destruction of areas that will never be again. And you want to argue about history? Get Woke! This why people still support Trump. They miss what is real to argue about dubious past. Makes me wonder why the distances matter more the tragedy.
Tragedy? Well, let's see. When I put the safety and security of the population of the United States against the murders committed by illegals, the cost incurred in supporting them, the ramifications of flooding the country with people who seem to have no problem with violating our laws and demanding citizenship on the one hand, and some ocelots, birds and butterflies on the other hand, I really don't see the tragedy being on the side of the critters.

In case you are unaware of it, birds and butterflies can fly over any wall, and ocelots are adaptable to changes in their environment, as evidenced by their continued presence after enduring fires, drought, floods, hurricanes, and yes, even human encroachment. Besides that, how do you know that consideration won't be made for them? Is this another facet of your clairvoyance?

Hope123
Posted: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:43:50 PM

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Ruth, it is called a dateline because it used to include the date as well as the location of the journalist and not necessarily the story. For example: BOSTON, Mass. (April 25, 2011) --

"The dateline of a news story has important information -- it indicates the city the journalist was in when he or she reported on the story. It also indicates the date the story was filed."

However, the date is being omitted now by most papers and online. The article on the link explains the reasoning. I always look for the date and often find it up by the byline or at the top somewhere.

https://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/22/no-more-dates-in-datelines/



(I guess FD was right when he said "Ignorance Run Rampant" and lectured PD. He just didn't get the right ignorance.)


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Romany
Posted: Monday, February 12, 2018 8:44:59 PM
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re datelines. Saying they can come from different countries doesn't apply only in war: -when I first started off in journalism in Papua New Guinea ALL our copy was datelined "Australia" ! (To be fair though, that was only for my first year or so.)

And I still find my eyes darting up to the dateline to see when the article was filed...and getting irked that it isn't there anymore!
Hope123
Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 8:11:05 AM

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PD, maybe they should just put the wall to the north of the Wildlife Sanctuary. Whistle Whistle Whistle It seems the sanctuary might be more appreciated by Mexico than by Trump et al. Angel

Edited. Replying to FD's last statement - It is not just the matter of a few butterflies and birds. The refuge is an important pathway for migration and ecosystems will be disrupted. A wall in the middle of a lake is called a dam. Furthermore it is not an area where illegals even try to get through. It is just that the government already owns the land.

https://www.fws.gov/refuge/Santa_Ana/wildlife_and_habitat.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/08/07/trumps-border-wall-would-slice-through-wildlife-refuges-and-cut-off-u-s-territory-in-texas/?utm_term=.3da43742928e


I see all kinds of "the-sky-is-falling" statements but have yet to see actual figures of the numbers of illegals committing murder and the cost to imprison them. Criminals have always been deported - and should be deported rather than incarcerated. Most of their crimes are immigration and drug related. I understand the necessity of keeping illegals out of any country, but it is that ICE are not using common sense now. Why deport someone who may have "violated immigration rules but poses no threat and is embedded in American society — people like, well, Melania Trump, who worked without authorization on her visitor visa when she first came to the U.S.?" This chemistry professor arrived legally but overstayed his visit and was allowed to stay for 30 years. He reported in regularly until ICE decided he had to go.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/10/opinion/sunday/syed-jamal-ice-deportation.html

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
philips daughter
Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 9:18:57 AM

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philips daughter
Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 4:04:35 PM

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As I write this ICE has buses picking up illegals. So, all you white people will need to cook your own food, pick your own vegetables, clean your own toilets and build your own damn wall. Oh yeah, good luck taking care of your own children.
FounDit
Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 4:40:55 PM

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philips daughter wrote:
As I write this ICE has buses picking up illegals. So, all you white people will need to cook your own food, pick your own vegetables, clean your own toilets and build your own damn wall. Oh yeah, good luck taking care of your own children.


You make me laugh, because with the exception of building the wall, I've done all of that my whole life. As to your previous post with its links:

Well, you did add some history to the subject, albeit all negative. Of course, I’m not surprised at that, since you seem to be filled with anger, but there were good and positive things that happened also: the land was cleared, crops were planted, railroads and regular roads were build, the economy improved, and jobs were created. People of different ethnic groups also inter-married and created families whose descendants are here today, much of the violence that once occurred regularly is no longer occurring, and the majority of us get along just fine.

But I’m still wondering what your point is. Is it that because bad things happened to people in the past, we don’t have a right to secure our borders? Is the history of an area supposed to be an incentive to never do anything about people who break the law?

I suppose it is easy to take a distorted and myopic view of the situation. That seems to be de rigeur today. But I take a long view, a view that encompasses a larger picture.

In this case, what you ultimately have is one group of predominately white European settlers from all the countries in Europe, fighting for control of land and resources with another group of white European settlers from predominately Spain, with the natives caught in the middle.

This is the story of conflict in humanity from the beginning of our species. The natives in this land were overwhelmed and we two groups of whites were left to finally settle the matter, and eventually the area achieved a stable, peaceful environment for both. And today, the majority of us who live here, and who are required to obey the laws of the country we now hold, expect others who want to come here to obey them also. It seems to me to be a reasonable expectation. Or, do you not agree with the idea of folks obeying laws?


We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:35:04 PM

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FounDit wrote:
I suppose it is easy to take a distorted and myopic view of the situation. That seems to be de rigeur today.


Bingo. Give that man a Kewpie doll. The wall is not being proposed because it is the best solution. It is being proposed because it fits with the distorted and myopic view of the situation.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 7:17:12 AM

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Republican lawmakers are in control. They could stop the talking that has been going on for years, get off their hands, and do something to stop for good all the meanness, division, and anger by both sides about illegals by making a clean slate:

1. Passing a simple one legislation bill giving the amnesty to not only DACA that 80% of Americans want, but to those who missed out from being DACA by a couple of years, and those who have been in the country for at least an arbitrary number of years - say five - have jobs or are going to college, pay taxes, contribute to society, and the only crime they've committed is being in the country illegally. Allow for some compassionate leniency such as major illness.

2. Continuing to issue, maybe even upgrade, seasonal work permits or H2B Visas to those who are willing to come and do the menial and low paying jobs that others do not want to do such as picking potatoes and other veggies and fruits in season.

3. Focus could then be on deporting all others starting with any embroiled in the legal system - deport, not incarcerate. Zero tolerance for them and for any who come past the date of the bill. Advertise that fact.

4. The mentality seems to be bilateral. Either build a wall or don't build a wall. But why not look at a third option. (Or more.) For instance - look into taking the money to be spent on a wall and set up a system such as has been done already where smaller amounts of money are legally loaned to individuals to be paid back with interest to allow young Mexicans to start their own businesses in Mexico. Thus they would have incentive to stay and work in Mexico instead of trying to cross illegally. There are already programs set up in the States where money is loaned around the world with a 96.9 % repayment rate. The money has been invested with interest paid instead of being spent on building a wall that needs constant surveillance and maintenance.

https://www.kiva.org

In other words, use helping Mexico to achieve the same means as building a wall, instead of creating all this anguish of families being torn apart creating all the anger by both sides.

That looks after obeying laws, gets rid of criminals, and stops the cost of incarceration of illegals. It starts a clean slate and allows new immigration as if this had not happened so others on the list cannot say they had to wait longer. The people of such an amnesty are already here and many already are identified and have the paperwork done.


5. Trying to make Mexico pay for a wall, trying to pressure Mexico (and Canada) for unfair concessions in NAFTA, and setting up ridiculous tariffs does not endear the US to its allies. (like Boeing trying to impose 300% tariffs on Bombardier - struck down by sane US courts saying Boeing was not damaged. BTW, when services and goods are taken into account, Canada has a disadvantage with the US, not the other way around.) Negotiate, and tell the president to STFU about cancelling NAFTA and starting trade wars again. Been there, done that. All three countries have won some and lost some but benefitted as a whole. State Governors know that. Now Trump wants only the US to win and to screw Canada and Mexico when he knows dick all about how many US jobs are directly linked to NAFTA. They could help Mexico while helping the US and everybody wins.


I ask Americans, other than pure meanness, what other reasons could there possibly be to not adopt at least 1-3 immediately? By March 5th.

(Thanks, PD for the history links I had asked FD for. I'm sure there is much more to learn about that time period there.)

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
FounDit
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:10:42 PM

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Hope123 wrote:

Republican lawmakers are in control. They could stop the talking that has been going on for years, get off their hands, and do something to stop for good all the meanness, division, and anger by both sides about illegals by making a clean slate:
Wrong. Though sorely tempted, I won’t resort to insults as you did in your fifth point. I’ll simply answer your points with information and a few questions. To be in control, the Senate would need 60 Republican members to pass legislation, and they do not have that number.

1. Passing a simple one legislation bill giving the amnesty to not only DACA that 80% of Americans want, but to those who missed out from being DACA by a couple of years, and those who have been in the country for at least an arbitrary number of years - say five - have jobs or are going to college, pay taxes, contribute to society, and the only crime they've committed is being in the country illegally. Allow for some compassionate leniency such as major illness.
Wrong, again. 80% of people polled are willing to provide a path to citizenship, but not amnesty, and why should we give these people amnesty? What have they done to earn the right to citizenship above everyone else who has come here legally and applied as the law directs? This is the path they should take. Why should they be rewarded for breaking our laws? I’m still waiting for you to answer the question as to why these people are not required to obey our laws as the rest of us are.

2. Continuing to issue, maybe even upgrade, seasonal work permits or H2B Visas to those who are willing to come and do the menial and low paying jobs that others do not want to do such as picking potatoes and other veggies and fruits in season.
These do continue to be issued, but what kind of “upgrade” are you talking about? No one has even mentioned anything like that.

3. Focus could then be on deporting all others starting with any embroiled in the legal system - deport, not incarcerate. Zero tolerance for them and for any who come past the date of the bill. Advertise that fact.
Focus could then be on deporting? After handing out work permits? No. This should remain a priority.

4. The mentality seems to be bilateral. Either build a wall or don't build a wall. But why not look at a third option. (Or more.) For instance - look into taking the money to be spent on a wall and set up a system such as has been done already where smaller amounts of money are legally loaned to individuals to be paid back with interest to allow young Mexicans to start their own businesses in Mexico. Thus they would have incentive to stay and work in Mexico instead of trying to cross illegally. There are already programs set up in the States where money is loaned around the world with a 96.9 % repayment rate. The money has been invested with interest paid instead of being spent on building a wall that needs constant surveillance and maintenance.
What?! You actually are suggesting that our taxes pay Mexicans to start businesses in Mexico? Okay. I said I wouldn’t insult you, so I won’t tell you what I think of this…idea, but shouldn’t that be the job of the Mexican Government if they want to increase their country’s GDP and tax revenue? I sure think it is.

https://www.kiva.org
If you want to voluntarily give to these folks, go ahead, but not me.

Quote from the website:
“Lending through Kiva involves risk of principal loss. Kiva does not guarantee repayment or offer a financial return on your loan.” [Emphasis mine]

In other words, use helping Mexico to achieve the same means as building a wall, instead of creating all this anguish of families being torn apart creating all the anger by both sides.
If the Mexican Government would get out of the drug corruption trade and actually do something for its own people, THAT would do more to stop the anguish of families being torn apart (through murder, rape, and kidnapping) than driving them out of the country and North to the border. But it’s easier to be corrupt and collect money sent back into Mexico than to actually do something for the people.

That looks after obeying laws, gets rid of criminals, and stops the cost of incarceration of illegals. It starts a clean slate and allows new immigration as if this had not happened so others on the list cannot say they had to wait longer. The people of such an amnesty are already here and many already are identified and have the paperwork done.
I can’t respond further to this without insulting you so I’ll pass on this one.

5. Trying to make Mexico pay for a wall, trying to pressure Mexico (and Canada) for unfair concessions in NAFTA, and setting up ridiculous tariffs does not endear the US to its allies. (like Boeing trying to impose 300% tariffs on Bombardier - struck down by sane US courts saying Boeing was not damaged. BTW, when services and goods are taken into account, Canada has a disadvantage with the US, not the other way around.)
Aw-w-w, our allies don’t find us endearing? I’m crushed. Well, not really. With NAFTA we saw thousands of businesses and jobs leave the country, hurting our people. You know what NAFTA stands for regarding our people don’t you? – Not A F***ing Thing, Amigo. That’s what we got out of it.

Negotiate, and tell the president to STFU about cancelling NAFTA and starting trade wars again. Been there, done that. All three countries have won some and lost some but benefitted as a whole. Wrong. We lost, big time.
State Governors know that. Now Trump wants only the US to win and to screw Canada and Mexico when he knows dick all about how many US jobs are directly linked to NAFTA. And you know this – how? Have you developed the same clairvoyance as phillips daughter that you know what the President knows?
They could help Mexico while helping the US and everybody wins.


I ask Americans, other than pure meanness, what other reasons could there possibly be to not adopt at least 1-3 immediately?
Meanness has nothing to do with it. Simply doing what is right and legal, and makes sense.

By March 5th.
Why March 5th? Oh, That’s right. Our primary elections take place March 6th. Must try to get those illegal voters amnestied as soon as possible, eh?




We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 5:38:39 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/2/2015
Posts: 1,847
Neurons: 298,022
Location: Haddington, Scotland, United Kingdom
Hope123 wrote:
Republican lawmakers are in control. They could stop the talking that has been going on for years, get off their hands, and do something to stop for good all the meanness, division, and anger by both sides about illegals by making a clean slate:

1. Passing a simple one legislation bill giving the amnesty to not only DACA that 80% of Americans want, but to those who missed out from being DACA by a couple of years, and those who have been in the country for at least an arbitrary number of years - say five - have jobs or are going to college, pay taxes, contribute to society, and the only crime they've committed is being in the country illegally. Allow for some compassionate leniency such as major illness.


You are correct that more than 80% of Americans support a right to residency for undocumented immigrants who arrived in the United States as children, with support crossing the political spectrum. This is not about the voting public, but about campaign money tied to special interests.


Hope123 wrote:
2. Continuing to issue, maybe even upgrade, seasonal work permits or H2B Visas to those who are willing to come and do the menial and low paying jobs that others do not want to do such as picking potatoes and other veggies and fruits in season.


Many, if not most, local and state level politicians recognize that removing this portion of the workforce will significantly damage local and regional economies. It is primarily at the federal level that you see the disconnect and again, it has to do with money coming from special interests.


Hope123 wrote:
3. Focus could then be on deporting all others starting with any embroiled in the legal system - deport, not incarcerate. Zero tolerance for them and for any who come past the date of the bill. Advertise that fact.


This is a very common sense approach.


Hope123 wrote:
4. The mentality seems to be bilateral. Either build a wall or don't build a wall. But why not look at a third option. (Or more.) For instance - look into taking the money to be spent on a wall and set up a system such as has been done already where smaller amounts of money are legally loaned to individuals to be paid back with interest to allow young Mexicans to start their own businesses in Mexico. Thus they would have incentive to stay and work in Mexico instead of trying to cross illegally. There are already programs set up in the States where money is loaned around the world with a 96.9 % repayment rate. The money has been invested with interest paid instead of being spent on building a wall that needs constant surveillance and maintenance.


Up until recently, the holistic approach to border security had been pretty standard and it worked. The only data showing that border incursions were increasing was made up and most everyone knows it.


Hope123 wrote:
https://www.kiva.org


This is one of those socio-economic solutions that just kicks the snot out of traditional banks and financial institutions. Not only are their defaults and losses many times lower than the traditional banks and finance, but microlending also jumpstarts local economies more efficiently and effectively than big banks. All any of this means is that conservatives hate it and say it's socialism, which just proves they couldn't identify pure capitalism if it bit them on the arse.


Hope123 wrote:
In other words, use helping Mexico to achieve the same means as building a wall, instead of creating all this anguish of families being torn apart creating all the anger by both sides.


Immigration, like gays, guns and god, are wedge issues. They are trotted out by the Republicans when they need more money, and that's all this is about.


Hope123 wrote:
That looks after obeying laws, gets rid of criminals, and stops the cost of incarceration of illegals. It starts a clean slate and allows new immigration as if this had not happened so others on the list cannot say they had to wait longer. The people of such an amnesty are already here and many already are identified and have the paperwork done.


This goes back to the local and state level politicians who understand how our economy depends on these workers.


Hope123 wrote:
5. Trying to make Mexico pay for a wall, trying to pressure Mexico (and Canada) for unfair concessions in NAFTA, and setting up ridiculous tariffs does not endear the US to its allies. (like Boeing trying to impose 300% tariffs on Bombardier - struck down by sane US courts saying Boeing was not damaged. BTW, when services and goods are taken into account, Canada has a disadvantage with the US, not the other way around.) Negotiate, and tell the president to STFU about cancelling NAFTA and starting trade wars again. Been there, done that. All three countries have won some and lost some but benefitted as a whole. State Governors know that. Now Trump wants only the US to win and to screw Canada and Mexico when he knows dick all about how many US jobs are directly linked to NAFTA. They could help Mexico while helping the US and everybody wins.


Mexico paying, NAFTA, tariffs- it's politics with malice aforethought.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 5:43:02 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,301
Neurons: 47,661
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
FounDit wrote:
Hope123 wrote:

Republican lawmakers are in control. They could stop the talking that has been going on for years, get off their hands, and do something to stop for good all the meanness, division, and anger by both sides about illegals by making a clean slate:
Wrong. Though sorely tempted, I won’t resort to insults as you did in your fifth point. I’ll simply answer your points with information and a few questions. To be in control, the Senate would need 60 Republican members to pass legislation, and they do not have that number.

1. Passing a simple one legislation bill giving the amnesty to not only DACA that 80% of Americans want, but to those who missed out from being DACA by a couple of years, and those who have been in the country for at least an arbitrary number of years - say five - have jobs or are going to college, pay taxes, contribute to society, and the only crime they've committed is being in the country illegally. Allow for some compassionate leniency such as major illness.
Wrong, again. 80% of people polled are willing to provide a path to citizenship, but not amnesty, and why should we give these people amnesty? What have they done to earn the right to citizenship above everyone else who has come here legally and applied as the law directs? This is the path they should take. Why should they be rewarded for breaking our laws? I’m still waiting for you to answer the question as to why these people are not required to obey our laws as the rest of us are.

2. Continuing to issue, maybe even upgrade, seasonal work permits or H2B Visas to those who are willing to come and do the menial and low paying jobs that others do not want to do such as picking potatoes and other veggies and fruits in season.
These do continue to be issued, but what kind of “upgrade” are you talking about? No one has even mentioned anything like that.

3. Focus could then be on deporting all others starting with any embroiled in the legal system - deport, not incarcerate. Zero tolerance for them and for any who come past the date of the bill. Advertise that fact.
Focus could then be on deporting? After handing out work permits? No. This should remain a priority.

4. The mentality seems to be bilateral. Either build a wall or don't build a wall. But why not look at a third option. (Or more.) For instance - look into taking the money to be spent on a wall and set up a system such as has been done already where smaller amounts of money are legally loaned to individuals to be paid back with interest to allow young Mexicans to start their own businesses in Mexico. Thus they would have incentive to stay and work in Mexico instead of trying to cross illegally. There are already programs set up in the States where money is loaned around the world with a 96.9 % repayment rate. The money has been invested with interest paid instead of being spent on building a wall that needs constant surveillance and maintenance.
What?! You actually are suggesting that our taxes pay Mexicans to start businesses in Mexico? Okay. I said I wouldn’t insult you, so I won’t tell you what I think of this…idea, but shouldn’t that be the job of the Mexican Government if they want to increase their country’s GDP and tax revenue? I sure think it is.

https://www.kiva.org
If you want to voluntarily give to these folks, go ahead, but not me.

Quote from the website:
“Lending through Kiva involves risk of principal loss. Kiva does not guarantee repayment or offer a financial return on your loan.” [Emphasis mine]

In other words, use helping Mexico to achieve the same means as building a wall, instead of creating all this anguish of families being torn apart creating all the anger by both sides.
If the Mexican Government would get out of the drug corruption trade and actually do something for its own people, THAT would do more to stop the anguish of families being torn apart (through murder, rape, and kidnapping) than driving them out of the country and North to the border. But it’s easier to be corrupt and collect money sent back into Mexico than to actually do something for the people.

That looks after obeying laws, gets rid of criminals, and stops the cost of incarceration of illegals. It starts a clean slate and allows new immigration as if this had not happened so others on the list cannot say they had to wait longer. The people of such an amnesty are already here and many already are identified and have the paperwork done.
I can’t respond further to this without insulting you so I’ll pass on this one.

5. Trying to make Mexico pay for a wall, trying to pressure Mexico (and Canada) for unfair concessions in NAFTA, and setting up ridiculous tariffs does not endear the US to its allies. (like Boeing trying to impose 300% tariffs on Bombardier - struck down by sane US courts saying Boeing was not damaged. BTW, when services and goods are taken into account, Canada has a disadvantage with the US, not the other way around.)
Aw-w-w, our allies don’t find us endearing? I’m crushed. Well, not really. With NAFTA we saw thousands of businesses and jobs leave the country, hurting our people. You know what NAFTA stands for regarding our people don’t you? – Not A F***ing Thing, Amigo. That’s what we got out of it.

Negotiate, and tell the president to STFU about cancelling NAFTA and starting trade wars again. Been there, done that. All three countries have won some and lost some but benefitted as a whole. Wrong. We lost, big time.
State Governors know that. Now Trump wants only the US to win and to screw Canada and Mexico when he knows dick all about how many US jobs are directly linked to NAFTA. And you know this – how? Have you developed the same clairvoyance as phillips daughter that you know what the President knows?
They could help Mexico while helping the US and everybody wins.


I ask Americans, other than pure meanness, what other reasons could there possibly be to not adopt at least 1-3 immediately?
Meanness has nothing to do with it. Simply doing what is right and legal, and makes sense.

By March 5th.
Why March 5th? Oh, That’s right. Our primary elections take place March 6th. Must try to get those illegal voters amnestied as soon as possible, eh?




I may have insulted your leadership - I did not insult you personally. Go ahead and insult my government if you like. I insult them myself sometimes.

I'm sure they could get their 60 Senate votes with DACA being the Dems priorties.

I asked if you believe you are responsible for what your parents did and got no answer. That's my answer to your question about why at least DACA should get amnesty. They are already there and would not be included in quotas so would not be cutting into line. What do you mean they don't have to obey your laws? If they break the laws they get put into jail and many ARE in jail for being there illegally. I guess you did not read where I posted the article that stated that Americans who think DACA should "just become legal" do not understand how the system works. Many illegals have tried to do just that without success.

I don't like illegal immigration any more than you do and would never condone anyone breaking any kind of law. If you let them become legal then they are no longer breaking a law. After the clean slate, anyone who breaks a law pays for their own bus fare back. Immediately. No taxpayer money for keeping them in jail.


My suggestion about using the "wall" money was just a brainstorming idea trying to get the idea that there might be other options if they think outside the box. I guess you didn't like it Whistle but have no inclination to think further about other options. And it was not payment - it was loan with interest. There is a difference. The money is going on a wall anyhow! No interest there. Again Kiva was only an example of what can and might be accomplished.

Not after work permits. I meant AFTER points one and two were accomplished there would be zero tolerance for anyone who did not fit the categories laid out, and who tried to get in after that date. Immediate deportation. A clean slate to stop all the haggling. Everyone knows where they stand.

And if Americans would stop buying the drugs and guns being smuggled in, the Mexicans would not have a market so handy,

So you are saying March 5th is not the date Trump set?

To sum up, if you prefer to have all the anger, division, and turmoil in the immigration system that even Americans say is a mess, because of some idea of "why should we ever try anything different or give an inch" then nothing will ever get done. How many years has this been going on?

As for NAFTA, you think you are the only country who lost most of their manufacturing jobs! Think again. And get some facts about how many US jobs are tied directly to NAFTA, and find out the other reasons besides NAFTA why jobs have disappeared. Personally, our negotiators had better walk away from a bad deal where the US thinks it's entitled to 50% of any part of the auto deal and tries to push your high drug prices on us.

I know the president knows dick about many aspects of NAFTA from listening to what he says. No clairvoyance needed.


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 5:52:15 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 3/23/2015
Posts: 8,301
Neurons: 47,661
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I left this point to post it separately.

Hope Wrote: That looks after obeying laws, gets rid of criminals, and stops the cost of incarceration of illegals. It starts a clean slate and allows new immigration as if this had not happened so others on the list cannot say they had to wait longer. The people of such an amnesty are already here and many already are identified and have the paperwork done.


Foundit answered: I can’t respond further to this without insulting you so I’ll pass on this one.


You'd better explain why I personally need to be insulted for this common sense statement.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 6:09:36 PM

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Well, that explains a lot, Progpen.

It's all just politcs as usual. With MONEY being the bottom line as always. No wonder it is such a mess.

Nobody really wants to solve any problems by thinking of various solutions that just might even work if there were compromise. It's all why should they get any help such as amnesty for something they didn't even do themselves, and why should we ever give an inch to help anybody but ourselves. My ideas were just too sensible.

I posted this in another thread but think it fits here too...https://forum.thefreedictionary.com/postsm1027801_Fact-check-of-the-US-State-of-the-Union-speech.aspx#1027801

You are right, Proggy. Other countries can interfere but it is how you handle that and other issues that count. (He had mentioned that crumbling of democracy comes from within and not without.)

I guess I am naive or too principled or something, but this morning I found out something that shocked me when I should have realized it was probably happening. I went into the Luggage Shop to buy a couple of Maple Leaf luggage tags for our trip to Mexico. I've never done that before in Mexico but figured the Mexicans must be pretty ticked at Americans right now and wanted to make sure they knew we are CDN.

Anyhow, the shop owner said that their Chicago supplier told him that the biggest suitcase tag sales in the US are for the Maple Leaf. They are lying that they are CDN. Is nothing sacred? 😱 But maybe if I were American I'd have at least thought of doing that too. :)

The store clerk said, "They are stealing our identity". I thought about that afterwards and decided they may borrow it for travelling, but if they act with arrogance as I've seen some do, the Mexicans will know who they are. I hope! It is a shame that Americans have tarnished their reputation - even more lately - because many many Americans are not brash like that at all.


However, I decided they can't steal our identity. Only we ourselves can ruin our own reputation. I hope Canadians never do that.

:::

LOL! Proggy admitted he's one of the Americans who does not want to be identified as such! Well, as I said, if I were American I might consider it too - if I had thought of it. It is just that I never thought the use of my CDN tags would be so diluted. And I know of course you always act as if you are a polite Canadian too, Proggy. Applause



The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Hope123
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 9:27:06 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Progpen, how true is this? I would think the following would be terrifying and not just for illegals. Would that be the beginning of a police state? Is it even close to happening or just fear mongering?

I just read that ICE has been trying for years to join the ranks of America’s spies and they are quietly making progress under Trump. “The idea that ICE could potentially get access to warrantless surveillance is frankly terrifying,” Jake Laperruque, senior counsel at the Project on Government Oversight..."
Wow. Does that mean the Intelligence Community does not need warrants?
:::::
I also just read that a lawyer for ICE has been charged with stealing the identities of immigrants to commit bank fraud. I guess there is one in every crowd.
::::
BTW - What IS the government doing with confiscated properties and businesses?
:::
Targeting chemistry teachers, a dad whose little son has leukemia, and business people is NOT exactly about keeping America safe. There is something much more to it, especially when anyone a shade darker than white gets targeted. I have not read about any white person being targeted, I know there are at least 100,000 Canadians there, and many of them are white. Maybe I just missed it. But I expect if they were CDN our media would be all over it.

Innocent children are being targeted and held with no proof of wrongdoing in order to deport them in Suffolk County. I have not read about this happening elsewhere and officials deny it, while others say they have proof. The NYCLU is involved.

https://www.nyclu.org/en/publications/trump-locking-and-threatening-deport-children-based-mere-suspicion-gang-affiliation

ICE has overstepped its bounds many times in the past on home raids with warrantless intrusions and violating the homeowner's constitutional rights. Maybe just don't talk to them or let them in until they have a warrant?

This is too depressing to keep searching for more info about what is actually happening.

FD wants the illegals to obey the laws and they should. Maybe he should also require the same of every single official who should be above reproach when affecting the lives of other humans even if they did the despicable thing of entering another country illegally.


The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
philips daughter
Posted: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 9:55:19 PM

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Joined: 4/21/2017
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Hi Hope. It is terrifying to live down here. How can we even know they aren’t picking up legal, born here citizens when it is done completely in secret. And Trump people are cheering. I am glad someone finally acknowledged how deep this is getting. Thanks for finding out for yourself. I hope you don’t give up because it is depressing. At least some people are beginning to take this seriously.
Romany
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 6:24:38 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

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Location: Brighton, England, United Kingdom
Phillips daughter -

I don't get my "news" from media reports: I skim through the headlines and then go off and watch the Senate hearings, read op-eds, listen to interviews with those concerned...and read, read, read.

So, though I understand how terrifying it must be to live through all this, I see also that more than "some" people are taking this very seriously: with each day's kiddy antics being hysterically accepted as cover for the underlying and growing concern about the demise of one of the world's super-powers. This is, after all, a common tactic of despots: give the rabble a whole lot of nonsense to get themselves worked up about, and quietly go about tearing up the the fabric of society while they're kept busy.

The steps the White House are taking right now may seem to be 'unique' and 'different' to a bunch of badly-educated and immoral sycophants, but to people with a lifetime of familiarity with history, politics, sociology, environmental issues, finance and economics, it's perfectly obvious where the country is heading. This is the same, text-book path followed by despots all over the world and throughout world history.

So don't despair: have confidence that, away from the "entertainment" of media gas-bagging, there really is a large, concerted and deadly serious sector right there who are well aware that their country faces the largest threat it has in its short history. And know precisely what would happen to America if allowed to continue this dizzying descent. And while the percentage who don't care what happens to the country as long as "their" mob get to call the shots, remember that they ARE a minority. A very, very vocal minority yes - and it might seem to you as though the entire country has abandoned you. But they haven't. The majority of people are concerned for the future of their country, and their children: - and the majority of "civil servants" - those who work for their country and not their own concerns - DO understand they are the servants of The People.

Hang in there, girl, and keep in mind all those millions of ordinary people, politicians, academics, statespeople and people of honour and integrity who are determined not to let evil prevail. And read some of the books, articles, transcripts that are as easily available as switching on to the "News", and watch Senate hearings etc. to understand that the "Grown ups" are carrying on doing what they always do - and fighting for the good of the entire country, not just of the ones who fit in with their personal ideas. Stay strong.
FounDit
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 10:45:12 AM

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Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 9,567
Neurons: 50,770
Hope123 wrote:

I may have insulted your leadership - I did not insult you personally. Go ahead and insult my government if you like. I insult them myself sometimes.
I never said you insulted me. I said I would not resort to insults as you did in your point #5 and insult your PM for differences of opinion or behavior. Unless a leader commits some atrocity such as mass murder, starvation of a population, or genocide, I can’t recall ever insulting one simply because of a difference in opinion. To me, it shows a lack of class and is bad manners. But I recognize not everyone feels this way, obviously.

I'm sure they could get their 60 Senate votes with DACA being the Dems priorties.
Well, no, actually. The Dems were offered 3 times what they wanted and refused it all. This was because their idea of compromise is “I get everything I want, and you get nothing”. The have demonstrated they really don’t want to compromise at all.

I asked if you believe you are responsible for what your parents did and got no answer. That's my answer to your question about why at least DACA should get amnesty. They are already there and would not be included in quotas so would not be cutting into line.
This is really the heart of the matter to me. I don’t recall seeing you ask this question before but wish I had, but I’ll answer it now that I see it.
No, I don’t believe I’m responsible for what my parents did. I don’t think I should be punished for any illegal acts they committed, nor do I think I should be rewarded for any illegal acts they committed either.

So tell me, in what other venue would your idea of “they are already here” apply? If parents are able to illegally sneak their kids into a movie theater, would the kids have a right to expect to be rewarded with free popcorn, cokes and candy simply because “they are already here”?

Or, if parents were able to sneak their kids into Disneyland, would the kids have a right to expect to be able to ride free because “they are already here”? Do you truly support such behavior?

When I hear people advocate such views I am forced to consider the mental acuity of those who think that kids should be rewarded with citizenship merely because their parents were able to sneak them illegally into the country, thus making them “already here” as if this somehow makes them deserving of such reward.

Until such advocacy can be supported with a reasonable argument beyond "because they are already here", the issue is settled as far as I am concerned, and nothing more can be said. The kids should pay like everyone else, and the payment is to apply for citizenship, like everyone else who believes in obeying the law and doing the right thing. If they aren't willing to do that simple thing, then they don't deserve the privilege of citizenship.

My only exception would be those who have, or are now honorably serving in the military. They have already shown a love of, and a willingness to serve, the country they now call home.





We should look to the past to learn from it, not destroy our future because of it — FounDit
progpen
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 10:50:37 AM

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When I hear people compare immigration to rides at Disney Land, I am forced to consider the mental acuity of those who think this.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
progpen
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 3:45:37 PM

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Tens of thousands of business owners, managers and execs make hefty profits off the work of these people and would rather pull up shop and move their business somewhere else than give up that money. This as much as anything else is a key factor in why there are as many undocumented workers as there reportedly are. When raids and arrests have happened before, the local economy suffered dramatically and we have found that those businesses just pick up and move to regions that don't have the raids (or are more amenable to greasing palms to have officials look the other way). The sorry part about this is that many of those people complaining about the undocumented workers don't ever benefit from the raids or any reduction in undocumented workers. But that doesn't change their attitude.

Nolite te bastardes carborundorum
Hope123
Posted: Thursday, February 15, 2018 4:06:28 PM

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Joined: 3/23/2015
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FounDit Wrote: I never said you insulted me.

And I never said that you said that I insulted you. Brick wall

I do disagree that it is bad manners to say the truth about leaders of any country on this Forum. That is unrealistic. If that makes me not classy, so be it. The right wing in the US have insulted my Prime Minister in the US media because of women's rights in Canada. Gorka called him "reprehensible". for something that affects only Canada. A comment was made by Kilmeade on Fox that the fear is that it (women's rights) might move down to the US. However, since you feel it is not right to diss foreign leaders on the Forum because of a difference of opinion, I'll hold you to it.

IF you are offended by my mild comments because of the damage Trump is trying to do to MY country, you should hear what the rest of the world says about him.

However, personal insults, even through innuendo, are not tolerated on the Forum and are much worse than pointing out flaws by a government. If I knew the titles I could find several threads where because of a difference of opinion you made personal insults or digs against me, Progpen, Chazlee - I forget who else. I realize you were talking about not dissing foreign governments, but add your rants about Liberals, Hillary, Obama, and Snowflakes, and you certainly do insult other people because of differences of opinion. Why is it fine to you to do that but not to insult foreign governments? Kind of a dissonance there to me.

I had hoped you and I had turned a page on that.

You talk about DACA getting rewards. What rewards? With many people like you being unwilling to allow, out of 335 million, a few hundred thousand young people to have the (now not so enviable) rights that come with US citizenship when they are already contributing to the society, there will never be any solution for this problem that occurred years ago and has been allowed to fester because of special interests. The hostility will go on forever. You are welcome to it. Schumer offered the wall for dreamers to stop the first govt shutdown and Trump rejected it. Pelosi spent 8 hours on her feet talking about Dreamers. A real feat for anyone, let alone someone that age. Don't you dare blame Dems for not getting the Dreamers helped.

Besides, You have it backwards. Dreamers are being punished, not rewarded.

You really do not understand how the immigration system in your own country works if you think all these kids have to do are to pay in some way and are not trying to do their damndest, to pay somehow, to get citizenship. I already posted information on two links that you obviously didn't see. Some took a chance on Obama's only way for it to happen for them, and look what has happened with this administration. They now have all their names. Judging by your statement that they need to pay by applying for citizenship, I seem to know more about the US immigration laws than you do. On the next post are two more links explaining it to you.

Many Dreamers ARE in the military, or are first responders. Some lost their lives trying to rescue others during hurricanes. Others contribute in many other ways. The military is not the only way people contribute to the well being of a country, but the US has the reputation for believing that the military is to be revered beyond anyone else.

Let's hope the legislators do a better job in their talks right now and get this settled soon.

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
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