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Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 7:38:02 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
Neurons: 10,382
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Fyfardens wrote:
So you are a Russian-speaking Russian living in Ukraine who opposed the Russian annexation of Crimea. Is that correct?

Exactly. The number of Russians in Ukraine who oppose the annexation considerably exceeds the number of Russians that don't.

By the way, most of the people who took to the Kiev’s streets on the first Sunday after the government suspended preparations for a trade deal with the EU were from Kiev and they were Russian-speaking.
Kiev, 24 November 2013

Y111
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 9:22:33 AM
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Joined: 6/25/2017
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

Interesting. Which in this video is propaganda on the Ukraine's side?

For example, they say people didn't come to Maidan for joining the EU, that it was a lie of Russian TV, but in that same video we see a banner that says, "We want to the EU" and also there are EU flags later. It's well known that for many it was an important goal. Some even painted the EU flag on their faces.

Helenej wrote:

Instructions to do what they have done.

That is to behave like a wimp and lose power? I can't believe that. If Putin had given them instructions and they had followed them, Maidan would have ended differently and much earlier. So, either instructions weren't given or Yanukovych was independent enough to not follow them. In that case they were just advice.
Helenej
Posted: Tuesday, January 9, 2018 3:53:55 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
Neurons: 10,382
Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
They say people didn't come to Maidan for joining the EU, that it was a lie of Russian TV, but in that same video we see a banner that says, "We want to the EU" and also there are EU flags later. It's well known that for many it was an important goal. Some even painted the EU flag on their faces.

That’s a good objection. Of course the suspension of the signing an EU association agreement was the cause for the protests. However, the protesters didn’t consider the agreement as something that would automatically solve their problems. Everyone understood that the association by itself wouldn’t change the life in the country. They only believed that the country being an EU associate member would make the authorities to carry on those changes that the EU would require from its associate member, such as fight against corruption, changes in economy, education, health care and judicial system. So we can say that the people came out to protest against authorities that didn’t want to change the existed system and that people had had enough of.

On the other hand, you can constantly hear in the video that slogan, "Off with the gang", which means that the protesters were against the authorities from the very beginning. So we can say that the Russian TV did lie.

Y111 wrote:
That is to behave like a wimp and lose power? I can't believe that. If Putin had given them instructions and they had followed them, Maidan would have ended differently and much earlier. So, either instructions weren't given or Yanukovych was independent enough to not follow them. In that case they were just advice.

I fear hearing possible Putin’s instructions you mean and how differently the protests would have ended. Sounds scary.

I believe that Putin instructed Yanukovich. He gave him $3 billion and was supposed to give $12 billion more so that Yanukovich would do what Putin wanted him to do. Of course, the human factor played its role. Maybe Putin’s instructions were not so ingenious, maybe Yanukovich either dared to ignore them or chose bad timing, maybe both underestimated the spirit and determination of the people. I don’t know. But something obviously went wrong and Yanukovych lost his presidency and Putin lost Ukraine as a friendly neighboring Slavic country, getting an enemy instead.
Y111
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:39:35 AM
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

On the other hand, you can constantly hear in the video that slogan, "Off with the gang", which means that the protesters were against the authorities from the very beginning. So we can say that the Russian TV did lie.

Interpreting every inaccuracy as propaganda is also propaganda. Yes, we could often hear the slogan "Off with the gang", but we've also heard lots of times that "Ukraine is Europe". It's even become a meme and some people now ironically call Ukraine "IsEurope" and Ukrainians "AreEuropeans". So it was only natural to think that the "gang" was hated primarily for not letting Ukraine go to Europe and from Russia.

Or at least it was natural to get it so for Russians because it concerned us more than internal Ukranian problems, which we didn't quite understand.

That is not to claim that our TV never lies. Actually, I have a problem here because I haven't watched TV since the end of 2010, Russian or any other. So, if you think I've been brainwashed by Kiselyov, you are mistaken.

I realize that Maidan was a complex event and there were different people in it with differing goals. I don't want simplifications from any side. What about the slogan "Glory to the nation, death to the enemies"? Or "Ukraine above all"? I've heard them a thousand times in videos from Ukraine.

Helenej wrote:

I fear hearing possible Putin’s instructions you mean and how differently the protests would have ended. Sounds scary.

Nothing too scary. Just more decisive police measures from the very beginning. Putin would not have waited till the protesters obtained weapons or for some snipers to shoot at both sides, that's for sure. You must know how riots are dealt with even in democratic countries. Not by standing around violent protesters for months.

Yes, you can say that violence was ordered by Yanukovych and Putin. It's a very convenient, universal explanation. :)

Helenej wrote:

I believe that Putin instructed Yanukovich. He gave him $3 billion and was supposed to give $12 billion more so that Yanukovich would do what Putin wanted him to do.

That money was given to the country, not to Yanukovych. Not just money, there were projects of closer economic cooperation, more work for Ukrainian industry. Now that industry is dying or has died already. Europe obviously sees no point in saving it.
Helenej
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:14:31 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
Interpreting every inaccuracy as propaganda is also propaganda.

Not hearing the slogan “Off with the gang”, which was repeatedly shouted for hours on that day, can’t be inaccuracy on the part of a country’s main TV channel's professionals.

Y111 wrote:
We could often hear the slogan "Off with the gang", but we've also heard lots of times that "Ukraine is Europe"... So it was only natural to think that the "gang" was hated primarily for not letting Ukraine go to Europe and from Russia.

For a qualified Russia’s main TV channel editor it would be natural to think the following: if Ukraine’s president and government had been caring about the country’s economy, living standards, health care system and educational system, people wouldn’t call them “gang” just because one day they decided to SUSPEND some preparations.

Y111 wrote:
If you think I've been brainwashed by Kiselyov, you are mistaken.

I haven’t said that.

Y111 wrote:
What about the slogan "Glory to the nation, death to the enemies"? Or "Ukraine above all"?

And what about them? “Glory to the nation” means the people are going to honor their country and its heroes. “Death to the enemies” means that if anyone attacks their country, they are determined to defend it. “Ukraine is above all” is just quintessence of patriotism.

Y111 wrote:
Nothing too scary. Just more decisive police measures from the very beginning.

More dicisive that this? It was at the very beginning, on 30 November, when about two hundred people, women being among them, stayed in the centre of Kiev for the night.
video 1
video 2


Y111 wrote:
Yes, you can say that violence was ordered by Yanukovych and Putin. It's a very convenient, universal explanation. :)

You wish that a more severe violence than that in the videos had been involved then and even put a smiley. This sounds incredibly cynical. You say you haven’t been brainwashed by Kiselyov. Then have you ever thought your cruelty can be pathological? You might want consider getting some therapy as soon as possible.

Fyfardens
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:23:42 AM
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Helenej wrote:
Have you ever thought your cruelty can be pathological? You might want consider getting some therapy as soon as possible.[/color]


Do you think you could keep such personal attacks out of the forum please?


I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:30:40 AM

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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Fyfardens wrote:
Do you think you could keep such personal attacks out of the forum please?

Does that mean that prescribing cruelty towards people on the forum is appropriate for you?
Fyfardens
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:44:32 AM
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Neurons: 4,717
All personal attacks, especially suggestions of mental instability, are inappropriate.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:48:47 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Fyfardens wrote:
All personal attacks, especially suggestions of mental instability, are inappropriate.

I guess that if that man on the ground were your son, you would say the same about someone who prescribes even worse cruelty.
Y111
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 10:58:34 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
Posts: 224
Neurons: 1,101
Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

people wouldn’t call them “gang” just because one day they decided to SUSPEND some preparations.

However, they called it Euromaidan for a reason, I guess.

Helenej wrote:

More dicisive that this? It was at the very beginning, on 30 November, when about two hundred people, women being among them, stayed in the centre of Kiev for the night.

OK, let's replace "decisive" with "effective" if the former means cruelty to you. That event on November 30 looks like a provocation. Some say the police was previously attacked by some people who then left that place. As far as I know, Maidan had actually ended by that day or was about to end. And it's clear that the last thing Yanukovych needed was this escalation.

Helenej wrote:

You wish that a more severe violence than that in the videos had been involved then and even put a smiley.

I put it after another statement. Don't you think that what you are doing is similar to what you blame our TV for?

Helenej wrote:

Have you ever thought your cruelty can be pathological? You might want consider getting some therapy as soon as possible.

Right now it's more important if you think so. Because if you do, there is obviously no point in continuing our conversation.
Helenej
Posted: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 3:01:10 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
OK, let's replace "decisive" with "effective" if the former means cruelty to you.

“More decisive measures” mean cruelty to everyone. If you call the cruel measures taken against peacefully dozing people “decisive”, then more decisive measures should only imply more cruelty.

Y111 wrote:
That event on November 30 looks like a provocation. Some say the police was previously attacked by some people who then left that place.

You want anyone to believe that? Some people attack the police and the police, that are in abundance in the square, can't run them down. No photos, no video. And then, instead of searching for those people, 2,000 riot policemen savagely attack those who haven't done anything bad.

Y111 wrote:
As far as I know, Maidan had actually ended by that day or was about to end. And it's clear that the last thing Yanukovych needed was this escalation.

It’s true, but if Yanukovych had nothing to do with the brutal attack, he had to find those who had given the order to 2,000 riot policemen. But he didn’t manage to do that in two months and twenty days although it was so easy. Any reasonable person can come to the conclusion that it was Yanukovych who gave the order.

Y111 wrote:
I put it after another statement. Don't you think that what you are doing is similar to what you blame our TV for?

Maybe. It’s difficult for me to stop being nonjudgemental when I see those smileys because I only left the square at about noon to wake up in the morning and see on TV what could have happened to me. I feel the suffering and humiliation of those people as if I were them.

Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:

Have you ever thought your cruelty can be pathological? You might want consider getting some therapy as soon as possible.

Right now it's more important if you think so. Because if you do, there is obviously no point in continuing our conversation.

You leave me no choice. You haven’t been brainwashed. You don’t seem to be ignorant of the events and, on the contrary, are aware of many details. There is no fourth option.

Y111
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:31:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/2017
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

If you call the cruel measures taken against peacefully dozing people “decisive”, then more decisive measures should only imply more cruelty.

Yes, if. You should have noticed that I used "decisive measures" in connection with riots and violent protesters. Were the protesters violent on that night? Was it already a riot? You obviously don't think so. Then why did you apply my words to that night? "The very beginning" could refer either to the beginning of Maidan, which was earlier, or to the moment when the protest turned into a riot, which was later. Why did you choose November 30? So you could label me as pathologically cruel and rest your case?

Helenej wrote:

You want anyone to believe that? Some people attack the police and the police, that are in abundance in the square, can't run them down. No photos, no video. And then, instead of searching for those people, 2,000 riot policemen savagely attack those who haven't done anything bad.

I don't know (or remember) all the details. How many of the police initially arrived there, and so on. That's a version I've seen on the Internet, and it seems plausible. At least to me it's not less credible than that Yanukovych ordered the police to be cruel. He doesn't look like a cruel man. Policemen, on the other hand, can be infuriated by attacks and then act with excessive and indiscriminate brutality. It happens.

Helenej wrote:

It’s true, but if Yanukovych had nothing to do with the brutal attack, he had to find those who had given the order to 2,000 riot policemen. But he didn’t manage to do that in two months and twenty days although it was so easy. Any reasonable person can come to the conclusion that it was Yanukovych who gave the order.

That's a valid argument. It looks suspicious indeed if nobody was blamed for that incident. However, I just can't imagine Yanukovych saying to someone, "Clear the square and do it as brutally as possible to scare the shit out of them!" Of whom? Dozing people, as you say? Very odd.
Helenej
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:31:03 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
Yes, if. You should have noticed that I used "decisive measures" in connection with riots and violent protesters.

I thought the people on 30 November should seem violent to you because they attacked some policemen, as you say.

Helenej wrote:
To me it's not less credible than that Yanukovych ordered the police to be cruel. He doesn't look like a cruel man.

Sounds childish. You probably think that any cruel person should look like this.




Did Lenin or Stalin look cruel? No, the nicest people.




Y111 wrote:
Policemen, on the other hand, can be infuriated by attacks and then act with excessive and indiscriminate brutality. It happens.

2,000 policemen got infuriated at one time? And all of them lost control, becoming real murderers? And what about their commanders? Did they got infuriated, too?

Y111 wrote:
I just can't imagine Yanukovych saying to someone, "Clear the square and do it as brutally as possible to scare the shit out of them!"

You probably can’t imagine him, a member of a criminal gang, robbing and assaulting people, for which he was sentenced to three years in 1967. And you can’t imagine him being convicted for a second time in 1970 on charges of assault.

He knew that he would be sentenced to a much longer term for robbing the country on a largest scale. So be sure that he could have easily said that.

Yanukovych leaves his residence
Fyfardens
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:57:28 PM
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There does appear to be rather more opinion and surmise than fact-based statements in this discussion.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Helenej
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 6:28:09 PM

Rank: Advanced Member

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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Fyfardens wrote:
There does appear to be rather more opinion and surmise than fact-based statements in this discussion.

1. Do the forum rules forbid people from expressing their opinion?

2. If you think they do, you probably should copy this thoughtful comment of yours and paste it throughout the numerous forum discussions on politics, religion, philosophy, literature, science, technology, culture, medicine, business, law and even LANGUAGE! Since this job of teaching people what to say and what not to say is going to take you a huge amount of time, make sure you don’t forget about your meals and sleep.

3. By the way, what you just said doesn’t seem to be a fact-based statement either.Dancing


TL Hobs
Posted: Thursday, January 11, 2018 9:30:08 PM

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Joined: 4/16/2009
Posts: 1,392
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Location: Kenai, Alaska, United States

If Russia really wants to get back Alaska, I think they should go up into the northern regions of the Arctic where the Polar bears live. All they have to do is cut a big hole in the ice over a deep part of the Bering Sea. Line the hole with English peas. When an Alaskan comes up to take a pea, kick him in the ice hole. Do that 700,000 times and the country is yours.

"When you don't know where you are going, you have to stick together just in case someone gets there." - Ken Kesey
Hope123
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 12:09:39 AM

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Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
An oldie but goodie, TL. 😀

The past is to be respected/acknowledged, not worshipped. It is in our future we will find our greatness. Pierre Trudeau
Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 1:18:24 AM
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[quote=Helenej]
3. By the way, what you just said doesn’t seem to be a fact-based statement either./quote]

Quite. It wasn't presented as one. I began "There does appear to be ...". You did a similar thing in your post.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Y111
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 1:58:07 AM
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Joined: 6/25/2017
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

I thought the people on 30 November should seem violent to you because they attacked some policemen, as you say.

But I said it later. Did you use a time machine to find it out? :) Without it, that won't fly.

And even if you had somehow managed to see the future, you could only have heard me saying I had seen such a version on the Internet and it seemed plausible to me.

Helenej wrote:

2,000 policemen got infuriated at one time?

What do you mean by "at one time"? Do you mean that 2000 policemen arrived to the square all at once, divided into groups and each group surrounded and began to beat one protester?

Helenej wrote:

And all of them lost control, becoming real murderers?

How many were murdered?

Helenej wrote:

Sounds childish. You probably think that any cruel person should look like this.

Maybe. But I rather meant his behavior than his looks, and his overall behavior through the riot phase of Maidan looked indecisive. So I don't think it was what Putin would have advised/instructed him to do.

Helenej wrote:

You probably can’t imagine him, a member of a criminal gang, robbing and assaulting people, for which he was sentenced to three years in 1967. And you can’t imagine him being convicted for a second time in 1970 on charges of assault.

Well, who knows? People can change with age and life experience. But I agree, that doesn't speak in his favor.

Helenej wrote:

He knew that he would be sentenced to a much longer term for robbing the country on a largest scale. So be sure that he could have easily said that.

Let me remind you that Maidan was already ending at that time. He just had to wait a little. There was no threat of any sentence to him at the moment. So I still don't see why he had to be cruel to those dozing people.
Helenej
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:25:09 AM

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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:

I thought the people on 30 November should seem violent to you because they attacked some policemen, as you say.

But I said it later.

What you said at once was, “Not by standing around violent protesters for months.” The protests only lasted less than three months. This means that you considered the protesters to be violent from the very beginning.

Y111 wrote:
What do you mean by "at one time"? Do you mean that 2000 policemen arrived to the square all at once, divided into groups and each group surrounded and began to beat one protester?

They beat up lots of protesters.
There were about 2,000 of riot police, according to the eyewitnesses.
2,000 riot police

Y111 wrote:
How many were murdered?

None, as far as I know. What I meant to say was that any stroke made with that force could have been the last for the person. The same with the others.

Y111 wrote:
Let me remind you that Maidan was already ending at that time. He just had to wait a little. There was no threat of any sentence to him at the moment. So I still don't see why he had to be cruel to those dozing people.

Then explain why he didn’t name and punish the guilty.

Helenej
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:31:53 AM

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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Fyfardens wrote:
Helenej wrote:

By the way, what you just said doesn’t seem to be a fact-based statement either.


Quite. It wasn't presented as one. I began "There does appear to be ...". You did a similar thing in your post.

Unlike yours, my post was on the topic, regardless of being fact-based or not. Yours was a complete off-topic.

Also, if you criticize someone’s post as containing no facts, the best thing to do would be to make your own, containing facts, thus being a model.

And finally, it is the third time on this thread when, being a complete on-looker at each moment, you’ve poped up after my post, telling me what to say and what not to say. You know, Fyfardens, since your latest post, I can’t get rid of the feeling that I am being watched. Anxious That old tune is haunting me this morning.


I'll be watching you

Fyfardens
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:46:38 AM
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Helenej wrote:
being a complete on-looker at each moment, you


I don't see that I have been any more (or less) an onlooker than any other participant in this discussion. However, I have no desire to give you the feeling that I am watching you, so I shall leave this thread.

I speak British English (standard southern, slightly dated).
Y111
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:54:17 AM
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Joined: 6/25/2017
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Helenej wrote:

What you said at once was, “Not by standing around violent protesters for months.” The protests only lasted less than three months. This means that you considered the protesters to be violent from the very beginning.

However, I didn't mean that. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. They probably seemed much longer than they actually lasted.

Helenej wrote:

Then explain why he didn’t name and punish the guilty.

I don't have the explanation, only guesses. Maybe it was someone close to him. Or someone who he still needed. Or someone who threatened to reveal compromising info about Yanukovych himself if he tried to blame and punish him.
Y111
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 3:58:39 AM
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Location: Kurgan, Kurgan, Russia
Fyfardens wrote:
There does appear to be rather more opinion and surmise than fact-based statements in this discussion.

We are just flogging a dead horse. The facts are known to both sides (more or less). What divides us is their interpretation. Besides, 99% of the sources would be in Ukrainian or Russian, which seems pointless in an English-speaking forum.

But here's one in English :) to support my claim that EuroMaidan was called so for a reason.

Helenej
Posted: Friday, January 12, 2018 5:51:19 AM

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 9/24/2013
Posts: 2,118
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Location: Kiev, Kyiv City, Ukraine
Y111 wrote:
Helenej wrote:

What you said at once was, “Not by standing around violent protesters for months.” The protests only lasted less than three months. This means that you considered the protesters to be violent from the very beginning.

However, I didn't mean that.

Well, if it was your genuine meaning, then I have to apologize for being rude. I’m sorry.

Y111 wrote:
I don't have the explanation, only guesses. Maybe it was someone close to him. Or someone who he still needed. Or someone who threatened to reveal compromising info about Yanukovych himself if he tried to blame and punish him.

In any case, our former president’s behavior does him no credit. I was cowardly and shameful.

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