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Profile: Sanmayce
User Name: Sanmayce
Forum Rank: Advanced Member
Occupation: a timewaster
Interests: English language n-grams
Gender: Male
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Joined: Tuesday, May 29, 2012
Last Visit: Thursday, November 16, 2017 3:41:32 PM
Number of Posts: 238
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: 'come undone' throughout lyrics
Posted: Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:41:19 PM
Since long ago 'come undone' has gotten my attention and still haven't looked into it as it should.
Time to pay attention/tribute.
Feel free to add more usages, certainly it is a wonderful variant for "falling apart".

Reading all the responses found Billeeb's one most on-the-point - "to unbecome". It opens or rather expands the failing to the extent of ceasing to exist, namely, perish. IMHO in Evanescence's superhit it means to die, simply because she is in state of losing her soul and next step is death.

Also, another meaning suggested by Malvolio - ruined/lost/doomed:

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
/Isaiah 6:4-5 King James Version (KJV)/

4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
/Isaiah 6:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)/

4 The doorposts shook at the sound of their shouting, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then I said,
“Woe to me! I [too] am doomed! —
because I, a man with unclean lips,
living among a people with unclean lips,
have seen with my own eyes
the King, Adonai-Tzva’ot!”
/Isaiah 6:4-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)/
"Come Undone is not available in the general English dictionary."

Lost, in a snow filled sky
We'll make it alright to come undone
Now we'll try to stay blind to the hope and fear outside
Hey child, stay wilder than the wind and blow me in to cry

Duran Duran - Come Undone

Wake me up inside
Call my name and save me from the dark
Bid my blood to run
Before I come undone
Save me from the nothing I've become

Evanescence-Bring Me To Life

Digging always reveals golden examples, so this particular case prompted me to offer to all lyrics fans a means/sidekick to look deeper. The package is as always FREE - it is called 'LYRICS-DIVER' (after the superb Dio's 'Holy Diver' song) - it is a command line tool working under Windows and Linux.

Many thanks go to - the nifty Machine-Learning site, the corpora are theirs.

Lots of instances were found in the small (57,650 strong) and big (half-a-million strong) lyrics repositories:
Small, contexts housing 149 hits: over_55000_English_song_lyrics_contexts.txt
Big, contexts housing 1071 hits: over_500000_English_song_lyrics_contexts.txt

This is how the contexts look like (the pattern is in the middle of the excerpt, surrounded by some 300 bytes giving the context):

Context #0,000,000,043 (680bytes or less long) holding the 'come undone' pattern found at line #0,000,197,371:
[...f coffee getting cold

And I can't stay alone tonight
Can't let another day go by
Why is it always this way?
Time never seems to really fly
And time is never really on my side
And I can't stay alone tonight
Things have to change and they might
But I can't stay alone tonight

Bruised in this cold war of words
We've come undone two loose ends alone
Possessed by that curse you've endured
The spell that I cast couldn't make you come home

And I can't stay alone tonight
Can't let another day go by
Why is it always this way?
Time never seems to really fly
And time is never really on my side
And I can't stay alone tonight
Things have t...] /Lyrics_for_55000+_songs_in_English/

Context #0,000,000,044 (680bytes or less long) holding the 'come undone' pattern found at line #0,000,222,452:
[ you down into my core
Where I've become so numb, without a soul
My spirit's sleeping somewhere cold
Until you find it there and lead it back home

Wake me up, wake me up inside I can't wake up,
Wake me up inside, save me,
Call my name and save me from the dark, wake me up
Bid my blood to run, I can't wake up
Before I come undone, save me
Save me from the nothing I've become

Now that I know what I'm without
You can't just leave me
Breathe into me and make me real, bring me to life

Wake me up, wake me up inside I can't wake up,
Wake me up inside, save me,
Call my name and save me from the dark, wake me up
Bid my blood to run, I can...] /Lyrics_for_55000+_songs_in_English/

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: the 2nd definition of "cantankerous" in freedictionary
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 6:41:47 PM
Hardly-traceable word!
The thing that got me thinking is the lack of similar form for 'troublemaker', we have adjective 'troublemaking' but why not 'troublemakerous' if following
Middle English contakour "troublemaker",

'Troublemakerous', covers both cases, no?

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: phrase
Posted: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:39:06 PM
Romany, yes yes the grammar comes as a sidekick not as an actual engine, it serves/has support functions, grammar never interested me, my passion has always been morphology and it is based on the exciting hidden potential that different morphs could bring - to shorten, vividify and mostly to focus the attention.
And yes, my style is to overthink or rather overobserve small things, in this case the Sophia's "from * perspective" raw diamond, my desire was to clarify the use cases - they are so many and her pattern deserves extra attention.
Instantly I saw the potential of this construction - shortening the wordage just by dropping an idiom or phrasal verb (hyphenated) into the asterisk place.

>So no, just because the person said this, it has nothing to do with every other idiom in the English language. It hasn't become a "pattern": it's just one person's way of expressing themselves with originality.

The whole idea inhere is to legitimize the general "formula", if one wants to morph the pattern, full ahead, but since this pattern is kinda new to me I wanted to set the base - the starting point. Omitting the preposition seemed to me as starting off on the wrong foot.

In that spirit my latest connection with this construction is:

in irons
Prepositional phrase
1. (nautical) The "trapped" condition a sailing ship finds itself in when the bow of the ship is headed into the wind and the ship has stalled and is unable to maneuver.
2. The state of screw-powered ships which become stalled between crests of waves or swells during a typhoon, for instance, and the ship's rudder does not respond to the commands from the helm, leaving the ship at the mercy of the sea and in danger of capsizing.

So cool, "from in-irons perspective", as if some veteran sailor narrates options left in a cut-off situation.

Few months ago, remember TheParser was diving into this matter, shared with him next:

Catching nuances is a fine ability which serves well when one wants to hit the point in a well-versed and short manner.
My English is forever buggy, but this troubles me not - at all.

You see, my obsession with prepositions is never ending, a few years ago I tried to make one strong starting point in shape of a booklet with one purpose in mind - to help users ... positioning the pre-positions, in-positions and post-positions:

3x46 PRE/IN/POST-positions listed

Just randomly positioned on 'in' section, page 19:

in force ~ 1. In full strength; in large numbers: Demonstrators were out in force. 2. In effect; operative: a rule that is no longer in force.
in full cry ~ In hot pursuit, as hounds hunting.
in full swing ~ At the highest level of activity or operation.
for/in fun ~ As a joke; playfully.
in irons ~ Nautical: Lying head to the wind and unable to turn either way.
in jig time ~ Informal: Very quickly; rapidly.
in key ~ In consonance with other factors.
in the swim ~ Active in the general current of affairs.
in the zone ~ Informal: In a state of focused attention or energy so that one's performance is enhanced: a goalie who was in the zone throughout the playoffs.

A plethora of new superb alternatives:

from in-force perspective
from in-full-cry perspective
from in-full-swing perspective [ringing the 'in the thick of it' bell]
from in-fun perspective
from in-irons perspective
from in-jig-time perspective
from in-key perspective
from in-the-swim perspective
from in-the-zone perspective [ringing the 'in the thick of it' bell]

Funny, sometimes questions kindle bonfires, hee-hee, thanks go to Sophia - the bonfire-starter-ess or the lovely monolithic word 'bonfirestarteress'. On second thought, there is even lovelier one - bonfirestarteresses.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: phrase
Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 10:52:22 PM
Interesting, haven't expected such nonrestrictive i.e. loose "style" Think
My understanding is that prepositions, as part of the idiom, should not be omitted.

In the discussion below, one Irishman shows some extra-sensitivity, prepositionwise:

"The odd thing (in my head) is that I think at works if there are lots of balconies. I'm thinking of situations like:"

If we play with Drag0nspeaker's from a balcony perspective, taking into account in/on/at, I reckon the prepositions add clarity and vividness, e.g. describing the people above - do they have their respective, heh-heh, perspectives from at their balconies?
In other words, what is more expressive:
"from at-their-balconies perspectives"
"from their-balconies perspectives"

Simply, by having in/on/at the repertoire becomes richer, besides 'from a balcony perspective' has idiomatic usage which could have nothing to do with an actual balcony:
"What can leaders do?
Leaders can “get on the balcony.” In order to have an understanding of the bigger picture, leaders need to be able to view situations and problems from a balcony perspective. Getting swept up in the field of action is often not productive. Taking a look from the balcony enables leaders to provide language for the situation that their group finds itself in and facilitate movement toward a solution."

panjandrum said: ↑

It depends on what kind of balcony you are talking about.

If it is the balcony outside my hotel room, I sit on the balcony.

If it is the balcony in a theatre, I sit in the balcony.


So, an outside balcony = on
An inside balcony = in


manon33, May 19, 2009

Love this exchange!

If we take Wikipedia's example 'g':
g. As a black man, I find that offensive.
we have "from a-black-man perspective" or "from black-man's perspective", the nuance here is that no preposition is to be used at all, whereas 'balcony' couldn't have perspective of its own, yet, for my surprise "from a balcony perspective" is in use:
Learn to master 'The Power of a Positive No' -
Mar 4, 2008 - The balcony is a place of perspective, calm, and clarity. From a balcony perspective, it is much easier to uncover the Yes behind your No.

Since Bulgarian and Russian languages are most brotherish, to me, the wording should be somewhat scrambled (to mimic them):
"perspective from the balcony" or:
"from/от balconyESQUE/балконСКА perspective/перспектива". The suffix -ESQUE becomes -ска/-ски/-ско.
Another, more popular example:
"from/от Sovietesque/Съветска perspective/перспектива".

Thus, the black-man's case is resolved by replacing FROM with OF:
"perspective OF the/a black man" or
"from/от niggeresque/негърска perspective/перспектива".
Fun fact, in Bulgaria and Russia 'nigger' is not derogative as in [modern] USA - it simply designates the race.

Could we omit on/in in these cases:
"in the know": "from in-the-know perspective"
"on the fly": "from on-the-fly perspective"
Don't thinks so.
From my perspective or rather tolltower (as the Bulgarian idiom goes), following that "formula" of direct idiom insertion yields strong wording/wordage.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: phrase
Posted: Friday, October 27, 2017 2:58:23 PM
Sophia Alexandrova wrote:

Could you please advise if it is possible to say "from the-thick-of-it perspective"? What I want to say is that the described perception of the event is vivid and provided by the person who took part in it.


IMHO, you cannot.
NKM seems caught the missing 'in/into', without it, what is the meaning/role of 'the-thick-of-it'?
Only the 'an' looks as an overkill, the 'the' would also, no?
Yet, let us try to legitimatize it.
First, shouldn't it be "from the-thick-of-it perspective"?
If you take the similar idiom "in-the-loop" and kill the "in" you have "from the-loop perspective" which entirely fails. My coinage is, "from in-the-loop perspective", as for your case - "from in-the-thick-of-it perspective".

So, my point, don't kill the preposition, you might find useful for such coinages other adpositional phrases:

Consider example 'c':
c. David walked on top of the building.

Following your logic to omit the 'in', inhere the 'on', we end up with the abomination:
"from the-top-of-the-building perspective"
instead of ending up with:
"from on-top-of-the-building perspective".

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: Do You Know Early Detection of Cancer is Curable.#44
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 2:17:45 PM
Hope123 wrote:

Yes, this is a good public service announcement. I had 9 colonoscopies (unusual problem) and they are no big deal. The worst part is the prep the day before. But you feel so good afterwards. I'm down to one every five years now.

I remember the doc saying to me, “I'm glad I didn't find this five years from now.” PS - I was glad too!

If they don't find anything the test is not repeated for ten years. If they do remove polyps the test is usually in five years and you are being monitored which is great.

Get one at age 50 or at age forty if there's a family history of cancer or polyps.

Be smart. Just do it.

Hey Hope123, what are your thoughts, if any, on Nigella Sativa (Black Seed Oil)?

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: Americans VS. Americanisms
Posted: Saturday, September 30, 2017 8:07:52 AM
Please find time and watch 'Mibu Gishi Den' awarded in Japan as best movie in/of 2003. The epitome of kaidanji is there as Yoshimura, I daresay it even outdefines (defines more strongly) the legendary Ichi in Zatoichi series/movies.

Drag0nspeaker wrote:
The book-title Kaidanji:Oshikawa Shunrō (by Jun'ya Yokota and Shingo Aizu) is translated as Devil of a fellow: Oshikawa Shunrō

Tenhōdōri No Kaidanji (by Nobuyuki Fukumoto) becomes Nice Guy on the Path of Mahjong

So it seems, generally, to be rather like 'dude'.

Right on!
This word is lovable, so I wanted to know its usage - not only its "interchangeability" with 'dude'.
See, there are at least two more aspects/nuances.
- weird;
- superhero.

Iwatani Hiroshi
Read “Kaidansi”. 快男児(Kaidanji) is a more popular term in everyday Japanese. ‘kai’ means ‘pleasant to see’, and ‘si’ or ‘ji’ is guy or fellow. Then it means ‘a man's man; a nice guy’ in general. A ‘super hero’ would also be an appropriate translation depending on the situations.

What are the meanings of 快男子?

Masaru Suda
An interesting question. Kaidanji do sound like an archaism, like a “gallant”, a dashing gentleman. The word is used to impart an old-fashioned flavour, or in standard conversation or writing just for a humorous effect. Sport news might use the word “Kaidanji” to describe an innocent looking young baseball player or sumo wrestler just out of high school but with a great potential, with some degree of humor; it's not normally used though as it sounds old-fashioned.

Georgi Marinov
Thank you.
I love this word, if forced to map it onto someone it would be two Japanese movies legends - Shintaro Katsu (in Ichi Zato series) and Kiichi Nakai (in Mibu Gishi Den).
I saw a Japanese movie where the title used the three kanji 快男子 as 'vigilante'.
As far as I see, there is a hidden aspect, suggesting 'weirdness', as if the person is big-hearted but somehow "strange", is it so?
My favorite Japanese actor Shintaro Katsu as Ichi is an embodiment of the two aspects:
- big-hearted;
- weird.
Also, allow me a follow-up, I tried Google translate in Chinese (Traditional) and lo! These three kanji are translated as 'Fast Man'!!! Kuài nánzǐ
How that come?
See, I'm honoring the word by writing a little programming etude called Nakamichi 'Kaidanji' which decompresses textual data FAST! If Chinese reading is also legit, this would gladden me twice as more since the focus is on being SMOOTH&FAST.

Masaru Suda
Shintaro Katsu fits the definition of a 快男児 kaidanji; as 1) he was a bit strangely hyperactive (high on narcotics, or naturally high when acting?), and 2) he had a wild but innocent pure boy character acting. The word kaidanji was used in 1960–70s or before, to describe such character; it’s no longer in wide use unless as a archaism though.
In his later years, he still performed well (here as Hideyoshi):
信長より人殺してそうな秀吉 [ニコニコあっぷる]

Diving into words denoting 'kind person' opens the question how come that such a gem became kinda obsolete, especially in Japan - the fortress of politeness on Earth, sorry English gentlemen, but Japan trumps England in that department. Japan rules in appreciativeness/sensitiveness/veneration in gentle matters, only look what land nurtures Zen/Shinto. Funny, walking on streets of Japan/England and saying 'Kaidanji/Dude' to a stranger, what would be the reaction?!! When 'mate/fellow/dude/gentleman' are to be used in order to avoid weird looks! I remember several funny movie scenes where our guy sees a bunch of criminals on the street and addresses them 'Gentlemen! Could you leave the girl alone ... and refrain from bullying her.' Calling a tug gentleman. Hilarious.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: Americans VS. Americanisms
Posted: Friday, September 29, 2017 5:13:08 PM
A cooperator wrote:

This is the first time I ever saw the word "Americanism".
Thus, what is the difference between "American" and "Americanism"?

This message below is from BBC email newsletter.
Are Americanisms killing English
a word or phrase peculiar to or originating in the US.

When matters come to Americanorama, I always look up Heritage - the All-American dictionary, love it.

1. A custom, trait, or tradition originating in the United States.
2. A word, phrase, or idiom characteristic of English as it is spoken in the United States.
3. Allegiance to the United States and its customs and institutions.
/American Heritage Dictionary/

As you can see, the treasure places "the most known meaning" on second ... place. Strange, huh?

@almo 1

Seeing your 'dude' example, could I use your expertise in Japanisms, you to shed light on 'kaidanji'?

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: Etymology of 'dragon'
Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2017 2:45:20 PM
Verbatim wrote:
Dragonlore, we must not forget what we are dragoncrafting here! Dancing

Nice, two more!

Dragonlore refers to folklore about dragons, including legends, oral history, fairy tales, and stories.[1]
When asked in what place, if any, there has been an accumulation of dragonlore George R. R. Martin replied, '"Valyria, the Citadel, Dragonstone, probably some of the Free Cities as well. Maybe Asshai in the far east."[2]


Many thanks, shame on me, didn't know 'craft' being a verb too!

So, 'Dragonstone' as well.

For some reason 'dragoncrafted' makes me think of 'battlehardened'.

Verbatim, your add-ons open one new level, the derivatives of e.g. 'folklor*':



Let's add them:

#135 dragoncrafted leprechauncrafted
#136 dragoncrafting leprechauncrafting
#137 dragonlore leprechaunlore
#138 dragonlorists leprechaunlorists
#139 dragonlorist leprechaunlorist
#140 dragonloric leprechaunloric
#141 dragonloristics leprechaunloristics
#142 dragonlorish leprechaunlorish
#143 dragonlores leprechaunlores
#144 dragonloristic leprechaunloristic
#145 dragonstone leprechaunstone
#146 dragonstones leprechaunstones
#147 dragonlorama leprechaunlorama

Thank you Drag0nspeaker, Irish, Welsh, Scots hold old words that English should adopt, in my humble opinion.

>Originally non-gendered.
Let's not force it to genderize it, but what is the plural?

#148 dragonwyf leprechaunwyf

Why not? What constitutes English Vocabulary?
In order to strengthen your faith in the potential *might* of English, tell me whether you wanna see how many "new" words to the OED/Heritage dictionaries does add the full wordlist of all books by J.R.R. Tolkien?

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.
Topic: Etymology of 'dragon'
Posted: Monday, September 18, 2017 7:28:19 AM
Oh, how can the 'Richard the Lionheart, a name for Richard I of England' counterpart be dismissed?

Quickly, following the template, here comes:

exceptionally courageous or brave.
lionheart`edness, n.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

lionhearted +‎ -ly
lionheartedly (comparative more lionheartedly, superlative most lionheartedly)
In a lionhearted manner; courageously; bravely.

#131 dragonheart leprechaunheart after lionheart
#132 dragonhearted leprechaunhearted after lionhearted
#133 dragonheartedness leprechaunheartedness after lionheartedness
#134 dragonheartedly leprechaunheartedly after lionheartedly

Simply, Dragon trumps Lion, so 'dragonhearted' is reserved for beyond outstanding bravery/supremacy.

Tale of Ronin‏ @taleofronin 13 Dec 2016
Of the same flesh and blood. Immortality is their Destiny. #dragon #samurai

While browsing the beautiful art by Yu Cheng Hong and seeing the title of the drawing below 'Fallen Angel', instantly occurred to me the possibility dragons to be fallen angels, if so, it will explain the "impossible" mix of divinity and monstrosity.

He learns not to learn and reverts to what all men pass by.

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