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Profile: A cooperator
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User Name: A cooperator
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Occupation: A teaching assistant at a University
Interests: English
Gender: Male
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Joined: Thursday, October 27, 2011
Last Visit: Thursday, November 21, 2019 5:34:22 PM
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  Last 10 Posts
Topic: "come up/down" and "go up/down" with "stairs"
Posted: Sunday, November 17, 2019 5:15:56 PM
BobShilling wrote:
A cooperator wrote:


I know that "come/go up/down" is an idiomatic phrasal verb:
Come up/down:[Intransitive (+ to/behind etc): move near someone or something:]
Go up/down[Intransitive (+ to): to reach as far as a particular place/to go to a lower floor of a building]: We went down for dinner at nine o'clock/The elevator was going down.


I don't agree that these are phrasal verbs. Both the verb and the adverb (or preposition for some grammarians) are used with their core meanings.

This is true whether the preposition has a preposition object, as in I came down the stairs, or the preposition/adverb does not have an object as in The lift is coming down.


I am not the one who says that 'go(come) down/up' is an idiomatic phrasal verb(verb + a preposition), but the paper Longman and Oxford dictionaries. So do the online electronic Longman and Oxford dictionaries.


Quote:
Online Longman dictionary:
go up phrasal verb
5. TO ANOTHER PLACE British English to go from one place to another, especially to a place that is further north, or to a town or city from a smaller place [+to]:
We’re going up to Scotland next weekend.
He went up to the farm to get some eggs.

Online Longman dictionary
go down phrasal verb
5. GO FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER to go from one place to another, especially to a place that is further south
[+ to]
We’re going down to Bournemouth for the weekend.
He’s gone down to the store to get some milk.



The online Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary also mentioned 'go(come) up/down' is an idiomatic phrasal verb:
Quote:
go up phrasal verb
go up phrasal verb:
go up (to…) (from…): ​to go from one place to another, especially further north or to a city or large town from a smaller place
When are you next going up to Scotland?
We went up to London last weekend.
opposite go down (to…) (from…)

go down (to…) (from…)
go down phrasal verb:
​to go from one place to another, especially further south or from a city or large town to a smaller place
They've gone down to Brighton for a couple of days.
opposite go up (to…) (from…)


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 4:02:49 PM
Audiendus, replied to me as much as he could.
Could anyone please take some of their precious time out to reply to these two points of mine?

Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate."(= The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.)
The winking girl at me is my classmate. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.)



The second point:
The present participle can be used as a verb - (He is working) - or an adjective - (a working mother) - whilst the ing word is used as a noun only(NOT a gerund, since gerund has not plural and "of" after it) in (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
So, I am seeing "a very working mother" makes sense. So, 'working' is used an attributive adjectival participle.
But, if "working" were predicative it would NOT still be adjectival.(we cannot say "a mother that/who is very working")
As a result, 'working' is adjectival in the first phrase, but part of a continuous tense in the second although they are two ways to say the same thing: "a working mother (=a mother that/who is working). So, if we are going to phrase "a very working mother" as "a mother who/that is very working", we must write 'very' in the second phrase as long as it makes sense in the first alternative phrase.

So,
- "working" is functioning as an adjective if placed before the noun, but part of a continuous tense if predicative.
- "interesting" is functioning only as an adjective (never as part of a continuous tense) if placed before the noun or predicative?
- "leaking" is functioning as part of a continuous tense(never as an adjective) if if placed before the noun or predicative?
When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: "come up/down" and "go up/down" with "stairs"
Posted: Saturday, November 16, 2019 3:18:48 PM
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
Hi Everyone!

I know that "come/go up/down" is an idiomatic phrasal verb:
Come up/down:[Intransitive (+ to/behind etc): move near someone or something:]
Go up/down[Intransitive (+ to): to reach as far as a particular place/to go to a lower floor of a building]: We went down for dinner at nine o'clock/The elevator was going down.
When gooding "came up/down", I found out this Q & A:
Quote:
Q: My question is simple: Can I use the verbs "come up/down" and "go up/down" with "stairs" ? Please, take a look:
1. He came up by the stairs. Explanation = he came up using the stairs.
2. He came down by the stairs. Explanation = he came down using the stairs

3. He went up by the stairs. Explanation = he went up using the stairs
4. He went down by the stairs. Explanation = he went down using the stairs.

My interpretation: Come up/down by the stairs; go up/down by the stairs = Take the stairs.

A: Yes, but 'by' would only be used where there are alternative means for going up and down: He came down by the stairs, not by the escalator or the lift. Where there are only stairs (as in a house), you would just say he came down the stairs.

(And 'came downstairs', one word, means came to the storey below, by whatever means - stairs, lift, bungee jumping out of the window, sawing a hole through the floor, etc.)

Yes. As stated, using "by" would indicate there is more than one way to move up or down in the building/house.


So, I saw that 'come/go up/down" can be used transitively in these examples:
1- He came down the stairs. Yes. No problems with this.

2-I didn't hear you coming up the stairs. Yes. No problems with this.

>Why use stairs when I can use the lift?
But this is only the first floor. That lift is for wheelchair users!
This would usually be said if the lift was designated only for wheelchair users, or people who could not climb stairs. Otherwise, anyone should be allowed to use it.


Thanks a lot, FounDit,
Then I should check some other dictionaries since both Longman and Oxford only mentioned that 'go(come) up/down' as Intransitive
an idiomatic phrasal verb:
Come up/down:[Intransitive (+ to/behind etc): move near someone or something:]
Go up/down[Intransitive (+ to): to reach as far as a particular place/to go to a lower floor of a building]:

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: "come up/down" and "go up/down" with "stairs"
Posted: Friday, November 15, 2019 6:12:56 PM
Hi Everyone!

I know that "come/go up/down" is an idiomatic phrasal verb:
Come up/down:[Intransitive (+ to/behind etc): move near someone or something:]
Go up/down[Intransitive (+ to): to reach as far as a particular place/to go to a lower floor of a building]: We went down for dinner at nine o'clock/The elevator was going down.
When gooding "came up/down", I found out this Q & A:
Quote:
Q: My question is simple: Can I use the verbs "come up/down" and "go up/down" with "stairs" ? Please, take a look:
1. He came up by the stairs. Explanation = he came up using the stairs.
2. He came down by the stairs. Explanation = he came down using the stairs

3. He went up by the stairs. Explanation = he went up using the stairs
4. He went down by the stairs. Explanation = he went down using the stairs.

My interpretation: Come up/down by the stairs; go up/down by the stairs = Take the stairs.

A: Yes, but 'by' would only be used where there are alternative means for going up and down: He came down by the stairs, not by the escalator or the lift. Where there are only stairs (as in a house), you would just say he came down the stairs.

(And 'came downstairs', one word, means came to the storey below, by whatever means - stairs, lift, bungee jumping out of the window, sawing a hole through the floor, etc.)



So, I saw that 'come/go up/down" can be used transitively in these examples:
1- He came down the stairs.

2-I didn't hear you coming up the stairs.
>Why use stairs when I can use the lift?
But this is only the first floor. That lift is for wheelchair users!



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'adopted child/father/parents etc' is correct
Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 6:04:20 PM
Could anyone please at this splendid forum take some of their precious time out to reply to my last point?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'Why (do you) learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives...?'
Posted: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 5:15:35 PM
FounDit wrote:
A cooperator wrote:
FounDit wrote:
This is a very common pattern for questions in English.

The original question could have been written as: "Why would you learn a language...?

This is very similar to other types of questions, such as:
"Why did you [verb]...?"

"Why [would you want to]...?"

But since we often do not like to repeat words that are not necessary sometimes, we omit the "did you", or "would you want to" since the question makes it clear that is what we are asking.

"Why did you go?" becomes, "Why go?"

"Why did you drive that way?" becomes, "Why drive that way?"

"Why did you say that?" becomes, "Why say that?"

You will see this pattern often in English with "Why" questions.


Thanks a lot,
FounDit
If I am using this pattern, will I be understood?

Yes, so long as you understand that this is only the beginning of the question. I provided examples of how you can begin the question. To that you would add the remaining part such as, "Why go if you knew you couldn't get in?" or "Why drive that way, if you knew you would be caught by the police?", etc. Questions are very commonly asked this way.


Thanks a lot,
FounDit,
By now, have I to understand that this ellipsis pattern for questions is only applied when the adverb of reason 'why' is used? Or it can be applied for any kind of questions, beginning with any other nominative pronouns(subjective pronouns ) or objective pronouns, such as what, which, etc.
If I had phrased my last statement "If I am using this pattern, will I be understood?" to read "Will understood if I am using this pattern?", would it have been correct?


Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'Why (do you) learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives...?'
Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 7:02:29 PM
FounDit wrote:
This is a very common pattern for questions in English.

The original question could have been written as: "Why would you learn a language...?

This is very similar to other types of questions, such as:
"Why did you [verb]...?"

"Why [would you want to]...?"

But since we often do not like to repeat words that are not necessary sometimes, we omit the "did you", or "would you want to" since the question makes it clear that is what we are asking.

"Why did you go?" becomes, "Why go?"

"Why did you drive that way?" becomes, "Why drive that way?"

"Why did you say that?" becomes, "Why say that?"

You will see this pattern often in English with "Why" questions.


Thanks a lot,
FounDit
If I am using this pattern, will I be understood?

Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'leaking' is an adjectival participle or present continuous tense + an intransitive verb
Posted: Tuesday, November 12, 2019 12:01:24 AM
Audiendus wrote:
I am sorry, I cannot spend any more time on this thread. I will leave it to others to answer if they wish.


Audiendus,
Could you please at least confirm these two points, especially those participles which are paired with prepositions, such as 'wink at/to', make me confuse:
The first point:
I know the participle of the sense #2 for "Wink" can be used attributively(before a noun) although it is a part of a continuous tense.
[the sense #2, Intransitive] to shine with a light that flashes on and off: ("the winking lights of buoys out to sea" = "the lights of buoys which are/were/have been winking out to sea")

However, for the sense #1, I don't know if it can be used attributively(before a noun) or not.
[the sense #1, Intransitive/Transitive] to close and open one eye quickly, usually to communicate amusement or a secret message:[+at]
Joel winked at me, and I realized he was joking.
The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.
The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.

So, can I say:
"The winking girl to the camera is my classmate."(= The girl that is winking to the camera is my classmate.)
The winking girl at me is my classmate. (The girl that is winking at me is my classmate.)



The second point:
The present participle can be used as a verb - (He is working) - or an adjective - (a working mother) - whilst the ing word is used as a noun only(NOT a gerund, since gerund has not plural and "of" after it) in (The inner workings of a computer are beyond me.)
So, I am seeing "a very working mother" makes sense. So, 'working' is used an attributive adjectival participle.
But, if "working" were predicative it would NOT still be adjectival.(we cannot say "a mother that/who is very working")
As a result, 'working' is adjectival in the first phrase, but part of a continuous tense in the second although they are two ways to say the same thing: "a working mother (=a mother that/who is working). So, if we are going to phrase "a very working mother" as "a mother who/that is very working", we must write 'very' in the second phrase as long as it makes sense in the first alternative phrase.

So,
- "working" is functioning as an adjective if placed before the noun, but part of a continuous tense if predicative.
- "interesting" is functioning only as an adjective (never as part of a continuous tense) if placed before the noun or predicative?
- "leaking" is functioning as part of a continuous tense(never as an adjective) if if placed before the noun or predicative?
When the "-ing" word is placed before the noun, this difference is hidden, because in both the above cases the "-ing" word is now functioning as an adjective. But you can still apply the "very" test.



Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'Why (do you) learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives...?'
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:56:21 PM
Hi Everyone!
Romany, in this thread entitled "Nationalism"?, said: Why learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives great offence and makes you sound like a rude person?


I am not correcting Romany. But, I see it is a direct question. So, I am wondering why she didn't use the subject-verb inversion?
Why is learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives great offence and makes you sound like a rude person?
Why is learning a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives great offence and makes you sound like a rude person?
Why do you learn a language which, when you converse/communicate in it, gives great offence and makes you sound like a rude person?

I think 'learning a language' would be [verb-ing + noun]( the noun or the gerund phrase), which is the subject of the sentence.




Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.
Topic: 'adopted child/father/parents etc' is correct
Posted: Monday, November 11, 2019 8:00:33 PM
thar wrote:
You see a pattern on some words, and yet again you ask why it doesn't work for all words.

You know what the answer to that is - the same as every time you ask it. You can't take one pattern and use it as a rule for all words.

Language was never designed, it has evolved. And different patterns have emerged. Sometimes it depends on the meaning of the words, sometimes it just depends on the history and origin of the word.
There are some words that are not commonly used because others exist that express that meaning. There are some words that do not exist at all.
You are working so hard to try to find one big pattern that covers everything, but sometimes there isn't one.


Thar, could you please understand me?
First, I am asking you about what difference is there between the ordinary adjective and adjectival present participle of 'resultant/resulting' and 'wakeful/waking'. I.e. we can use them interchangeably in some contexts, especially if they both can be used (before noun):
"resultant(to happen or exist as a result of something)/resulting":
resulting: (present participle which can be used adjectivally or part of a continuous tense):
- The point is that the distinction between the past participle in the passive (what was done to it) and the adjective (its state) is gradational. Often the resultant/resulting meaning is the same.
- a growing economy and its resultant/resulting benefits

"wakeful(unable to sleep:)/waking(all the time when you are awake)":
waking:(present participle which can be used adjectivally or part of a continuous tense):
How his face haunted her every waking moment!
wakeful:(ordinary adjective) [ unable to sleep:]
lying wakeful in the hot night.

Second, if we can use 'resultant/resulting' and 'wakeful/waking', why do we not use the derived adjectival present participle:
adopting parents
adoptive parents



Final, having said do you know that any word which has the three different kinds of adjective forms: adjectival past participle, adjectival present participle, and ordinary adjective form, I meant the following list:
Each of these has either only two forms or one:
1- opposed(NOT before noun)/opposing(Only before noun):
He was opposed to the death penalty.
opposing team

2- adopted(Only before noun)/adopting/adoptive(Only before noun).

3- resulted/resulting/resultant(Only before noun).

4- Upset/upsetting(causing unhappiness, disappointment, or worry)/upset(unhappy, disappointed, or worried - not before noun)
- a painful and upsetting divorce
- Don’t you see how upsetting that is to him?
- She looked pale and upset.

5- woken/waking(Only before noun)/wakeful(both before noun or after a linking verb):
- She spends all her waking hours caring for her mother
- He had been wakeful all night.[unable to sleep]
-lying wakeful in the hot night.[unable to sleep]
-"wakeful nights" [(of a period of time) passed with little or no sleep]
- " a wakeful person" [(of a period of time) passed with little or no sleep]

6- awakened/awakening/awake(NOT before noun)

Wake up(verb): [to stop sleeping or to make someone stop sleeping]:
My cousin woke me up because he couldn't find his headphones.
Waking:(all the time when you are awake) (present participle which can be used as part of a continuous tense or an adjectival past participle):
How his face haunted her every waking moment!
Woken:(past participle which is only used as part of a passive verb or perfect tense, not an adjectival past participle):
Wakeful:[ unable to sleep:](ordinary adjective):
lying wakeful in the hot night.
Awaken(verb): [to wake up or to make someone wake up:]
Awakening (present participle which can only be used a noun or part of a continuous tense, not an adjectival past participle]
Awakened (past participle which can only be used or part of a passive verb or perfect tense, not an adjectival past participle)
Awake [not sleeping:](ordinary adjective)
I lay awake worrying about my exams.







Whoever doesn't own what he promises to those who do not deserve must not promise it.

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